UK Aikido
History
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:36:35 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Still not OT (for Henry Ellis)
Concerning the history of Aikido in the UK.
I know that Ellis Sensei has been practicing Aikido since the earliest days of
it being in the UK, so this is kind of a chance to ask some questions
I've been thinking about for a while :o)
Abbe Sesnei came here in the '50s and was invited by the British Judo people,
among them Masutaro Otani who I noticed you mention on your website. I know that
Abbe set up a budo organisation (I forget the name of it unfortunately) and as
such taught judo, aikido, karate etc... But when we
read about the history of Aikido in the UK all you tend to hear is that it
started with Abbe but not what the fate of his organisation has been.
I suppose that this is probably because the earliest teachers of Aikido, K.
Williams, H.Foster and yourself etc. were moving around the country to a
certain extent and so became independent of Abbe's organization. Would this be
fair to say? Or is there some other reason?
I know that various Tomiki people started up in the UK around a similar sort of
time to when Chiba Sensei came here, and then not too long after that Ken
Williams went the way of the Ki-wee, so what I'd like to know is how did that
affect Abbe's organization in terms of Aikido, because looking around at the
Aikido in the UK today, you don't hear anything about Abbe Sensei's budo
organization despite the fact that it pre-dates many of the ones in the country
today.
Mike Haft
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:36:58 +0000
From: Henry Ellis
Subject: Re: Mike Hatch UK Aikido history
Mike
Matsuro Otani Sensei invited Kenshiro Abbe Sensei to the UK in 1955, It was in
1955 that the British Judo Council (BJC) was founded. In 1958 the "International
Budo Council" (IBC) was also founded. Abbe Sensei was surprised at the
popularity and progress of Aikido in the UK. Although he was a master of many
martial arts, he was at heart a "Judo man" He had made K Williams National
Coach, I was assistant to K Williams. Abbe Sensei invited Mutsuharu Nakazono 7th
dan Aikido to visit the UK in 1963, Nakazono was also a high ranking Judo and
Kendo master. At this time all was well with the BJC and IBC.
Judo: Kenshiro Abbe - Matsutaro Otani
Karate: Mtsusuke Harada
Kendo: Tomio Otani
Aikido: K Williams
I am not sure about our "becoming independent" yet it was true that Abbe Sensei
was devoting more of his time to Judo with the Olympics in sight. Abbe visited
Japan and we had no prior knowledge of his planned visit to O'Sensei Uyeshiba,
he asked O'Sensei for an AkiKai representative for the UK, this was the reason
for the subsequent arrival of Kazuo Chiba sensei in the mid 60's Abbe now
intended that Chiba Sensei should take over all UK Aikido, K Williams was
shocked by this development, Up to this point Aikido had been very strong under
the direction of K Williams. Chiba sensei was not aware of the situation he was
now involved in. It was at this point that the fractures started to appear in UK
Aikido. K Williams later went to Wales. Sensei Foster took over the "Hut" and I
joined Chiba Sensei. The "Controversy" article has brought me in contact with
many people from the early years, I was really pleased to hear from Sensei Bill
Woods (Judo-Kendo) who was the secretary of the BJC and the IBC, If you are
interested in more info on the early years of the BJC check out Sensei Woods web
site, see article "Setting the record straight" <www.Busenjudo.com>
I hope that answers some of your questions Mike.
Kind regards
Henry Ellis
Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
www.angelfire.com/al/ellisaikido
www.esta.fsnet.co.uk
Checkout articles on the sites below
National Aikido Communication Database
www.aikido-database.co.uk
InYourCity.com
USAdojo.com
CyberKwoon.com
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:44:19 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Yes, thats very interesting, I knew a lot of it from talking with my teacher,
but its always nice to hear other perspectives on the same information.
I've read the article before and its certainly enlightening as far as the judo
goes, but its a bit tricky trying to figure out exactly how the UK aikido scene
relates to it all. So thanks for your post.
Concerning the Aikido taught by Abbe himself, from what I've read it was mostly
pre-war aiki-budo in flavour, can I ask how you feel it compared to
the stuff taught by the other teachers sent over from france (before Chiba
Sensei arrived in the UK)? As you said everyone was re-graded it must have been
quite different, or was it more the politics that were different than the Aikido
itself?
Mike Haft
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:51:41 +0000
From: Henry Ellis
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Mike
You are right, Abbe's Aikido was very strong with a distinct pre-war flavour.
Aiki-Budo and Daito Ryu were much in evidence, I must be honest and say that I
did like that old style very much.
Tadashi Abe (no relation) was based in France, he came to the UK and we would
visit France, he was without doubt the hardest of all the Aikido masters I have
ever seen, with Chiba sensei a close second. No, the regrading was not
political at all, I like to think of that
era as being freee of politics in Aikido,
It was simply that Abbe sensei wanted us to meet the standards of the Hombu of
that time. Nakazono did say to us all at the end of the grading that we could
train at the Hombu dojo on equal terms with the students there, quite a
compliment in those days, Abbe sensei was also pleased.
Kind regards
Henry Ellis
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:18:11 -0000
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Mike ? asked:
>Abbe Sesnei came here in the '50s and was invited by the British Judo
>people, among them Masutaro Otani who I noticed you mention on your website.
>I know that Abbe set up a budo organisation (I forget the name of it
>unfortunately) and as such taught judo, aikido, karate etc... But when we
>read about the history of Aikido in the UK all you tend to hear is that it
>started with Abbe but not what the fate of his organisation has been.
Abbe Sensei left, and it disbanded, then became the Renown Society under K.
Williams, which disbanded after Williams Sensei moved to another part of the
country, and then became the Institute of Aikido under H. Foster which is still
going strong today and still training in the same original Abbe dojo (The Hut in
Middlesex, UK) under Foster Sensei.
>I suppose that this is probably because the earliest teachers of Aikido, K.
>Williams, H.Foster and yourself etc. were moving around the country to a
>certain extent and so became independent of Abbe's organization. Would this
>be fair to say? Or is there some other reason?
Foster Sensei wasn't moving around the country - he had a full time job at
Heathrow Airport and a young family to look after, so he only went away for
courses. He trained at The Hut as his regular dojo for many years, then took on
teaching responsibilities there.
>looking around
>at the Aikido in the UK today, you don't hear anything about Abbe Sensei's
>budo organization despite the fact that it pre-dates many of the ones in the
>country today.
You do if you know who to ask! The only person I know of who remained within
Abbe's organisation and did not study under Chiba, Tohei etc was Foster Sensei,
AFAIK.
Henry Ellis wrote:
>Abbe Sensei was surprised at the popularity and progress of Aikido in the UK.
Although he
>was a master of many martial arts, he was at heart a "Judo man" He had made K
Williams
>National Coach, I was assistant to K Williams.
Is this coach for Judo or for Aikido? I've heard that K. Williams was more on
the Judo side and his brother D. Williams was the Aikido man. When K. Williams
was made National Coach for Aikido, H. Foster was made his assistant, not you. I
believe you were travelling around the UK at the time?
>Tadashi Abe (no relation) was based in France, he came to the UK and we would
visit France,
>he was without doubt the hardest of all the Aikido masters I have ever seen,
with Chiba sensei
>a close second. No, the regrading was not political at all, I like to think
of that
>era as being freee of politics in Aikido
It wasn't free of politics in Japan and that had a knock-on effect in Europe.
The reason for the regrading was that Nakazono Sensei decided that the UK
Aikidoka had to learn the forms system that was being taught in France, and
re-grade under that system. Abbe Sensei had taught in a different style and this
was deemed inappropriate for teaching the art at the time, so Nakazono taught
the system to the UK yudansha and senior kyu grades so that they could use it as
a basis for their own teaching. This system forms the basis of the way Aikido is
taught by Foster Sensei, and many other UK instructors today.
The history is interesting, but trying to get the same story from any two people
who were there at the time is virtually impossible, therefore I can only add
what I have heard from Foster Sensei directly, as another point of view. I hope
this helps Mike!
Ruth
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:29:51 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
>From: Ruth Mc William
>>Mike ? asked:
>
>Abbe Sensei left, and it disbanded, then became the Renown Society under K.
>Williams, which
>disbanded after Williams Sensei moved to another part of the country, and
>then became the
>Institute of Aikido under H. Foster which is still going strong today and
>still training in the same
>original Abbe dojo (The Hut in Middlesex, UK) under Foster Sensei.
With respect Ruth I don't think thats the truth, well its not the *whole* truth
anyway but one part of it in any case, like you said, getting the same story
from everyone who was there is a bit tricky :o)
>Foster Sensei wasn't moving around the country - he had a full time job at
>Heathrow Airport and
>a young family to look after, so he only went away for courses. He trained
>at The Hut as his
>regular dojo for many years, then took on teaching responsibilities there.
But just because the Hut was the first dojo doesn't mean much to me at all, its
just a place, our organisations first hq dojo was school hall I believe. It
could even be said that the Aikikai Hombu moved to Iwama during the war before
moving back and being rebuilt. IMO just because the place has a long history of
Aikido that doesn't really mean it is part of the same organisational fabric
which is what I was trying to find out about.
> >looking around
> >at the Aikido in the UK today, you don't hear anything about Abbe
>Sensei's
> >budo organization despite the fact that it pre-dates many of the ones in
>the
> >country today.
>
>You do if you know who to ask! The only person I know of who remained
>within Abbe's
>organisation and did not study under Chiba, Tohei etc was Foster Sensei,
>AFAIK.
The trouble with that is that Abbes organization wasn't just aikido it was budo.
Trying to find out what happened to it just seems to lead to various
people doing their own thing after a while.
>The history is interesting, but trying to get the same story from any two
>people who were there
>at the time is virtually impossible, therefore I can only add what I have
>heard from Foster Sensei
>directly, as another point of view. I hope this helps Mike!
All the info I can get helps :o)
I'm basically curious because of the things my own teacher tells me, he was a
student of Chiba originally, but only briefly so he doesn't really count
it, he usually says he started Aikido about 20 something years ago and that was
Ki Soc with Kolesnikov Sensei, then he studied with Tomio Otani who encouraged
him to start our organisation.
So as far as I can tell, as Tomio learned Aikido from Abbe, and my teacher
learned ki aikido, our aikido is a pre-war aiki-budo/post war ki aikido
style, heavily influenced by the sword my teacher learned from Tomio.
Which is of course why I'm always interested in hearing new things about the
history of Aikido in the UK and the technical influences events may have
had. It kind of helps me to figure out what on earth my teacher is doing in the
wider context of things, which is always useful to understanding what
you're learning :o)
Cheers,
Mike
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:20:05 -0000
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Mike ? wrote
>With respect Ruth I don't think thats the truth, well its not the *whole*
>truth anyway but one part of it in any case, like you said, getting the same
>story from everyone who was there is a bit tricky :o)
Of course it isn't the whole story! I wouldn't dare discuss the whole thing in
public :-)
As far as I know it's the truth according to Foster Sensei and as he was around
at the time, and he actually started his training before Ellis Sensei started
his, I'm inclined to believe him. The reason why The Hut keeps a low profile is
because Foster Sensei got incredibly fed up with all the fighting that went on
from the 1970s onward about who was speaking to whom, joining what organisation,
and allying with Sensei X or Y, so he kept quiet and carried on teaching anyone
who was interested to learn from him. He wanted nothing to do with the politics,
had no need to publicise himself, and was happy to teach if there were 2
students on the mat or 20. A lot of UK Aikidoka have some connection to The Hut,
either training there themselves or their teachers trained there, but they don't
mention it so nobody knows that it is the birthplace of UK Aikido. This has been
on the Institute of Aikido website for several years, with a request for any
information to the contrary, and so far nobody has claimed otherwise.
>But just because the Hut was the first dojo doesn't mean much to me at all,
>its just a place, our organisations first hq dojo was school hall I believe.
If you'd ever trained there you wouldn't say that - The Hut is more than "just a
place" - it has the blood, sweat and tears of generations in its very fabric!
No, seriously, it has a certain feel about it when you walk in there that a
school hall just doesn't have. It "feels" like a dojo, a place where people have
trained hard for almost 50 years, and when you get on the mat it's got a buzz
about it that makes you train harder. It is quite a serious feeling, I suppose
"Martial" would be the best way to describe it. Go there and train and you'll
see what I mean.
>It could even be said that the Aikikai Hombu moved to Iwama during the war
>before moving back and being rebuilt. IMO just because the place has a long
>history of Aikido that doesn't really mean it is part of the same
>organisational fabric which is what I was trying to find out about.
Well, your teacher's teacher's teacher came from The Hut, so you carry some of
the legacy yourself whether you know it or not. I can see it in your practice -
there are common threads that are subtle but apparent. I don't see these in
people who come from a purely Chiba Sensei background, or other unconnected
background. The first time I realised this legacy existed in students who were
only remotely connected to The Hut was quite a revelation for me!
>The trouble with that is that Abbes organization wasn't just aikido it was
>budo. Trying to find out what happened to it just seems to lead to various
>people doing their own thing after a while.
Unless you can get some accurate information from K. Williams Sensei that's
probably the way it's going to stay. There are many ex-students of Abbe who no
longer train who probably know stuff as well, but you'd have to find them.
>I'm basically curious because of the things my own teacher tells me, he was
>a student of Chiba originally, but only briefly so he doesn't really count
>it, he usually says he started Aikido about 20 something years ago and that
>was Ki Soc with Kolesnikov Sensei, then he studied with Tomio Otani who
>encouraged him to start our organisation.
From what I've heard there wasn't the huge distinction between the various
styles 30 years ago that there is now, so your teacher may have been studying
something very close to what everyone else was doing at the time. The other
thing you can see sometimes is the way people train in kind of a time warp -
they are doing things the way they were done 10, 20, 30 years ago! I know a few
"old style" tricks which tend not to be used so much these days as they can
cause a fair bit of damage to students who don't have a good ukemi. I prefer to
train under instructors who evolve in their training as there are loads of
innovations which are far far more effective than the "old way".
>Which is of course why I'm always interested in hearing new things about the
>history of Aikido in the UK and the technical influences events may have
>had. It kind of helps me to figure out what on earth my teacher is doing in
>the wider context of things, which is always useful to understanding what
>you're learning :o)
It may or it may not, depending upon how quickly your teacher is evolving his
style. Foster Sensei has been evolving his for over 40 years, by a combination
of seeing what other people are doing and thinking very deeply about matters
himself. Others evolve by studying under different styles and different teachers
so they can see what works for them. O Sensei evolved his using some kind of
spiritual development which I don't even begin to fully understand! Figuring out
technical influences is fun, but you have to have trained for quite a while and
seen quite a few different instructors to start making sense of what you see and
finding the common threads. I'm fortunate that I had the opportunity to see
these things from almost the beginning as my instructor at the time was always
encouraging us to go to courses. It's almost beginning to make some sense 10
years later....... :-)
The ongoing history of UK Aikido may eventually be published in a book, but
again I'd say it's more likely to be a collection of points of view rather than
historical facts!
Ruth
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:56 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
>From: Ruth Mc William
>Mike ? wrote:
>A lot of UK Aikidoka have some connection to The Hut, either training
> >there themselves or their teachers trained there, but they don't >mention
>it so nobody knows that it is the birthplace of UK Aikido. >This has been
>on the Institute of Aikido website for several years, >with a request for
>any information to the contrary, and so far nobody >has claimed otherwise.
I'm pretty sure that no one would either. Its quite well documneted that thats
where it started, and even if anyone else was around at the time, they certainly
wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as Abbe as far as budo goes, so I think
that if for some odd reason there were someone doing Aikido in the UK before
Abbe and they DIDN'T bother to go and see him and take the opportunity to
practise with him they probably don't really count as being even close to decent
as a a budoka, IMO.
>If you'd ever trained there you wouldn't say that - The Hut is more >than
>"just a place" - it has the blood, sweat and tears of generations >in its
>very fabric! No, seriously, it has a certain feel about it when >you walk
>in there that a school hall just doesn't have.
So?
>It "feels" like a dojo, a place where people have trained hard for >almost
>50 years, and when you get on the mat it's got a buzz about it >that makes
>you train harder. It is quite a serious feeling, I >suppose "Martial" would
>be the best way to describe it.
I could say the same about our hq dojo, so again my question: So?
A dojo is not an organization nor an aikido teacher, its a room with mats on the
floor an a few other bits and bobs no matter how old it is or what events have
taken place in it.
"Heaven is right where you're standing and thats the place to train"
Some old dead Japanese guy said that I believe.
>Go there and train and you'll see what I mean.
If I ever get the time I'd love to, its not too far away after all :o)
>Well, your teacher's teacher's teacher came from The Hut, so you carry
> >some of the legacy yourself whether you know it or not.
I'm well aware of it, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask again: So?
>I can see it in your practice - there are common threads that are >subtle
>but apparent. I don't see these in people who come from a >purely Chiba
>Sensei background, or other unconnected background. The >first time I
>realised this legacy existed in students who were only >remotely connected
>to The Hut was quite a revelation for me!
Ok, I can buy that, but I'm not too sure that that has anything to do with the
Hut itself, rather with the people who taught and trained there. That there are
commonalities (is that even a word??) between things Hut related is quite
possible, but I just don't think that anyone can claim to be the sole inheritor
of a tradition just because he hasn't actually gone anywhere and others have
(geographically that is).
Snip
>From what I've heard there wasn't the huge distinction between the >various
>styles 30 years ago that there is now, so your teacher may >have been
>studying something very close to what everyone else was >doing at the time.
I think that perhaps the only ones that could claim to be different at that time
would be Yoshinkan and Tomiki, the shockwaves resulting from the 'great schism'
wouldn't have arrived yet, though they may have been brewing in Japan, but thats
c1970, 8 years before I was born, so I'll take other
peoples word for it :o)
>The other thing you can see sometimes is the way people train in kind of a
>time warp - they are doing things the way >they were done 10, 20, 30 years
>ago! I know a few "old style" tricks >which tend not to be used so much
>these days as they can cause a fair >bit of damage to students who don't
>have a good ukemi.
See now that sort of thing doesn't make sense to me, surely this would cause
a... 'dilution', in regards to the very thing we are trying to maintain by
passing on what we learn so that it doesn't vanish from the earth. Of course, it
has to change somewhat or it dies, but not teaching somethings which could be
considered too dangerous sometimes doesn't seem very sensible to me.
>I prefer to train under instructors who evolve in their training as there
>are >loads of innovations which are far far more effective than the "old
> >way".
I'm not too sure thats entirely true in every respect but I appreciate what
you're getting at :o)
snip
>The ongoing history of UK Aikido may eventually be published in a >book,
>but again I'd say it's more likely to be a collection of points >of view
>rather than historical facts!
All historical facts are a collection of points of view, they are the points of
view of the historians :o)
Mike
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:44:01 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Dojos with history (Re: UK Aikido history)
Having been in the school hall type dojo and the really really old dojos I must
say that there is a certain feel that permeates the wood. A smell in the air
that does make you feel immersed in Budo.
Without doubt I train just as hard in the more modern settings which by the way
include Shodokan Honbu but I disagree that a dojo has no effect on how you
train. This is very similar to the statement that you can get good training
outside of Japan but that there is something unique about Budo in its home
country that can't be duplicated.
My favorite old dojo is the Kyoto Budokan Center, anyone else have their
favorite and do you feel it makes a difference.
Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
http://www.oocities.org/rehseca/Aikido
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:06:55 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Ruth Mc William wrote:
> Well, your teacher's teacher's teacher came from The Hut, so you carry
> some of the legacy yourself whether you know it or not. I can see it in
> your practice - there are common threads that are subtle but apparent. I
> don't see these in people who come from a purely Chiba Sensei
> background, or other unconnected background.
Maybe it's because you're on the outside looking in, or I've completely
misunderstood what you were trying to say, but those of us who have spent time
with Chiba sensei can recognize his students right off. For example, when I was
asked to teach at the Aikido-L seminar in Boulder, I didn't bring anyone with
me. I was going to use whoever attended the class as my uke. In one class, I saw
a guy practising whose body movements *screamed* USAF-WR. It turned out that
yes, he had studied USAF-WR, even though that was a several years ago. I used
him as my main uke for my class and I could throw him pretty hard and fast
without worrying too much about him because I knew from watching his movements
what he was capable of.
Then, a few hours after I arrived in Indianapolis for the following year's
seminar, a guy walked in the door. He wasn't in a gi. He wasn't on the mat
practising. He just walked in the door. I excused myself from the conversation I
was having, and walked over to introduce myself to this fellow USAF-WR Aikidoka
-- Mark Chiapetta -- someone I had never met nor had described to me. His body
movements OFF THE MAT once again literally SCREAMED USAF-WR!
And in another vein, talk to any of Chiba sensei's long-time students, and
you'll find that they all feel part af a family... especially those that trained
with him back in the old days, in England.
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:28:31 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: Dojos with history (Re: UK Aikido history)
>From: Peter Rehse
>Having been in the school hall type dojo and the really really old dojos
>I must say that there is a certain feel that permeates the wood. A
>smell in the air that does make you feel immersed in Budo.
You mean like: "tatami - noun, mats used on dojo floor, the original purpose of
which was to hide the bloodstains"?
I agree completely that a place can have an atmosphere that is difficult to
explain unless you've experienced it, people have a way of leaving marks on
a place in very subtle ways. Sometimes not so subtle, and it certainly makes it
more interesting and brings it to life a bit more if there's someone there who
has been there for a long time.
An OT example could be my old high school chemistry lab, it was nearly 100 years
old when I was there (IIRC) and my teacher had been there 20+ years, he could
tell you where each and every strange mark on the ceiling came from, and what
experiment the students were messing up at the time. He was also a bit eccentric
from being exposed to the mercury vapour from under the lecturing bench, that
was the result of a puddle of mercury under the desk that'd been there for more
than 20 years that no one knew about.
So yeah a place can have a feel of its history to it but my original thoughts
were as to what came from that place and went elsewhere, just saying that the
person who stayed there inhereted it all is true in some ways but not in others.
As a better example, the Iwama dojo is run by Saito Sensei, but he's not the
whole Aikikai is he?
snip
>This is very similar to the statement that you can
>get good training outside of Japan but that there is something unique
>about Budo in its home country that can't be duplicated.
I find it difficult to accept that just because a teacher is Japanese he is
automatically better, of course this is quite subjective in many ways because
you have to decide how much of budo is japanese culture, and I think it is nearl
impossible to divorce the two completely.
snip
>My favorite old dojo is the Kyoto Shodokan Center, anyone else have
>their favorite and do you feel it makes a difference.
Our hq dojo, theres a pool table in the lounge :o)
Mike Haft
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:17:57 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Recognizing your own (Re: UK Aikido history)
Julian Frost wrote:
>In one class, I saw a guy practising whose body movements *screamed*
>USAF-WR. It turned out that yes, he had studied USAF-WR,
>Then, a few hours after I arrived in Indianapolis for the following year's
>seminar, a guy walked in the door. He wasn't in a gi. He wasn't on the mat
>practising. He just walked in the door. I excused myself from the
>conversation I was having, and walked over to introduce myself to this
>fellow USAF-WR Aikidoka -- Mark Chiapetta -- someone I had never met nor
>had described to me. His body movements OFF THE MAT once again literally
>SCREAMED USAF-WR!
A few months ago, I walked into a dojo in Lawrence, Kansas and was immediately
captivated by the flow of the people on the mat. Every movement screamed Ki
Society. Of course, the dojo _was_ Kansas Ki Society's dojo, so perhaps this
was to be expected.
But seriously, years ago, Kashiwaya Sensei told me that he could recognize an
experienced Ki Society practitioner on the street just by the way the
person moved. I thought to test him as we walked through the airport ("Is that a
Ki Society person?" ... "No!", "Is that a Ki Society person?" ... "No!", "Well,is
that a Ki Society person?" ... "No!"), but I decided that would quickly prove
boring and that annoying the US Chief Instructor might not be a good idea. I
decided just to take his word for it.
Certainly part of my daily situational awareness is watching how people move. I
not only notice those who move clumsily and those who move aggressively, but
also those who move in a balanced and coordinated manner. I pay extra attention
to those, since they would probably be the
most dangerous should they prove to be up to "no good".
Jake
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:35:15 -0500
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Recognizing your own (Re: UK Aikido history)
Howdy,
I can vouch for the Big K's ability to do this. I've seen him do it on more
than one occasion. He can also pick out who someone is a Ki-wee (that he knows)
even if that person is wearing an extremely elaborate disguise--just by the way
they move. Also very trippy.
On a similar note:
My Dad had both of his hips replaced and I was able to make it home for both
surgeries. After the second one, I was watching him do his physical therapy
with his nurse and I noticed something odd. I said "One of his legs is longer
than the other." At first, both my parents and the nurse thought I was nuts (I
am, but that's another issue). When I insisted, the nurse measured both legs
and the one I had indicated was 2 centimeters longer than the other.
How much difference does that actually make? I don't know, I just know that my
Dad looked/moved differently than before the surgery, and I attributed it to the
obviously (to me, anyway) longer leg.
Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:46:38 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Recognizing your own (Re: UK Aikido history)
I remember at Nishio sensei's seminar, one lady while working with me
said, "I know who your teacher is -- I can tell by your ukemi and the
way you move." The seminar actually happened two months _before_ I
actually moved here to train with him...
Jun
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:36:31 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: Recognizing your own (Re: UK Aikido history)
Julian Frost wrote:
> Ha! But my examples were more along the line of your Kashiwaya sensei
> examples (not that I'm equating me with him... I've never met him! <g>) in
> that the seminar consisted of some 80 people from very different Aikido
> backgrounds. There were only two long-time USAF-WR people there... me and
> Mark. Oh, and Mark is not a student of my teacher, but a student of a
> student of my teacher (admittedly, probably one of the most senior
> students of my teacher!).
A few months back when I first met a new member of our dojo, before we ever got
on the mat together, the first question I asked was "Have you always been Ki
Society?", because something about the body movement was different. Sure
enough, seems this student had previously studied Aikikai.
When I went to a seminar in January, the sensei that taught pegged me for Ki
Society right off the bat.
As for Julian and Mark, you guys do move off the mat in a very similar manner.
My reaction when Mark walked in was, "He walks just like Julian!" Spooky.
Al
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:59:45 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Dojos with history (Re: UK Aikido history)
Mike ? wrote:
> I find it difficult to accept that just because a teacher is Japanese
> he is
> automatically better, of course this is quite subjective in many ways
> because you have to decide how much of budo is japanese culture, and I
> think
> it is nearly impossible to divorce the two completely.
As far as the former I agree - I know some terrible Japanese teachers and some
wonderful non Japanese. There really is a feel to practicing in Japan that I
have yet to experience outside the country.
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:29:34 -0500
From: Peter Boylan
Subject: Re: Dojos with history (Re: UK Aikido history)
Peter Rehse wrote:
>
> Mike ? wrote:
>
> > I find it difficult to accept that just because a teacher is Japanese
> > he is
> > automatically better, of course this is quite subjective in many ways
> > because you have to decide how much of budo is japanese culture, and I
> > think
> > it is nearly impossible to divorce the two completely.
Mike,
I think what it comes down to is depth. Imagine training in a dojo where having
as much experience as Ellis Sensei qualifies you as one of the senior students.
And there are lots of senior students. Think about Tokyo. There are lots of
dojos there with students who have decades of experience. And this is true not
just for their Aikido experience. I train iaido in a dojo run by aa teacher who
is 7 dan kyoshi in Iaido, Kendo, and Jodo, and who also holds multiple dan ranks
in judo and karate. There is also and 8th dan iai, 7th dan kendo teacher who
comes to train there, 4 iaido seventh dans, and several 6th dan who hold various
ranks in kendo and other arts (some even do aikido). At the dojo where I first
began my training I started under
two men who were both 7th dan kyoshis in iaido and kendo, and the dojo had 4
other kendo 7th dans, all of who also have 5th dan in iaido. And please note
that these are not located in any sort of big city. Kusatsu is 30 minutes from
Kyoto by train, and eichigawa is an hour out into the countryside. In the US we
would say it's in the sticks. In big city dojos the depth is even greater. My
jodo teacher is 8th dan jodo, with I don't know what rank in kendo and iaido
(but I do know he still outranks me in iaido), 5th dan karate, menkyo kaiden
Shinto Muso Ryu, Menkyo Kaiden Kukishinden Ryu bo, and probably other stuff I
don't know about.
I think this is a large part of what makes training in Japan so special: the
incredible depth of experience in the dojo. When I train jodo in Osaka, people
under 5th dan are not allowed to train with each other. We have to train with
partners who are a minimum of 5th dan. And there are more than enough 5th dan+
students in the dojo for us to get all the training we can absorb, usually more
than we can absorb.
So imagine training in a place where 40 years of experience is enough to qualify
you as a senior student, and you might understand why we say that the experience
can't be duplicated outside of Japan.
Peter "the Budo Bum" Boylan
Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
The Finest Martial Arts Equipment, Direct From Japan To You
4592 40th Street S.E.
Grand Rapids, MI 49512
USA
http://budogu.com
PH/FAX (734) 675-0028
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:33:20 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Dojos with history (Re: UK Aikido history)
I don't understand - experience and depth is a bad thing???
Peter R
Jon C Strauss wrote:
>>So imagine training in a place where 40 years of experience is
>>enough to qualify you as a senior student, and you might
>>understand why we say that the experience can't be duplicated
>>outside of Japan.
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:44:47 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Dojos with history (Re: UK Aikido history)
Peter Rehse wrote:
>I don't understand - experience and depth is a bad thing???
To those of us who are both naive and shallow it can be very uncomfortable.
Jake
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:51:56 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Ruth Mc William wrote:
> >or I've completely misunderstood what you were trying to say
>
> Definately! I was specifically referring to people who have come through
> The Hut (as opposed to any other lineage) as that is what I've had most
> experience of. I can also see the movements of other instructors pased
> on through their students but as I said you have to have been around for
> a while and done a bit of cross-styles training to be able to recognise
> the patterns.
Ok... so I'm confused... what you appear to be saying is that you can spot who
has trained at The Hut, based on your experience training at The Hut. How is
that different from me saying that I can spot USAF-WR students based on my
experience with Chiba sensei (note that I didn't say "Students of Chiba sensei",
but "USAF-WR students" -- meaning direct students of Chiba sensei as well as
second, third and even fourth generation students of his)?
> > but those of us who have spent
> >time with Chiba sensei can recognize his students right off.
>
> I should hope so! Saito's students can recognise their fellow Iwama style
> folks, and so on and so on...
Exactly!
You can recognize people who trained at The Hut, and Iwama people recognize
other Iwama people. So what's your point?
> I shall remember to make it clear that I'm being specific and not
> general in future - I'M BEING SPECIFIC!!!
>
> Chaos cleared up. (I hope!)
Not really, sorry.
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:34:26 -0500
From: "Kim A. Sommer"
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 Julian Frost wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Ruth Mc William wrote:
>> [paraphrase] she could recognize people who had trained at the Hut.
>
>Ok... so I'm confused... what you appear to be saying is that you can spot
>who has trained at The Hut, based on your experience training at The Hut.
>How is that different from me saying that I can spot USAF-WR students
>>
>> Chaos cleared up. (I hope!)
>
>Not really, sorry.
Julian,
I think the confusion came in Ruth's ealrier message where she said something
along the lines of people from the Hut had a distinction she could see and that
Chiba sensei's students did not have. That, at first read, sounded like only the
Hut students were identifiable in a police line-up. "There officer, there's the
person who threw me. He had a distinctive way of moving that I shall never
forget."
I had the first reaction you had to that since, by example, when I first saw
you and Mark C. talking with each other at the list seminar I thought you had
trained with each other because there was a simliarity of manner between you
two.
I think What Ruth was trying to say is that Hut students have a distinctive
manner about them that is different than the characteristics/manner etc. that
she identifies with Chiba's students or people from Iwama-ryu. I don't think
she was intending to sound as though other groups are a non- distinguishable
lump of moving bodys and parts. :-)
Kim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:46:32 +0900
From: Michael White
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Kim wrote:
> I think What Ruth was trying to say is that Hut students
> have a distinctive manner about them that is different
> than the characteristics/manner etc. that she identifies
> with Chiba's students or people from Iwama-ryu.
Interesting... I may be stepping into this rather late (I just got back from a
few days in Hong Kong) but can you define what this "characteristic/manner" of
Hut students is, Ruth, if you haven't already?
I trained occasionally at the Hut and for the best part of a decade under one of
Messrs Foster and Ellis' students and I'm curious to know if I exhibit it as
well... :-)
Mind you, I'm a bit of an aiki-mongrel now, having started off with Tomiki-ryu
aikido, joined the Institute of Aikido (with its Iwama-ryu influenced weapons
syllabus) whilst at University and ended up here in Tokyo with the Aikikai.
Cheers,
Mike White
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:20:02 -0000
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Thank you Kim! That's precisely what I was trying to say. I'm really glad you
explained it so well as I'm struggling to get the 'ol brain working at the
moment!
<Rei>
Ruth
"Kim A. Sommer" wrote:
>Julian,
>I think the confusion came in Ruth's ealrier message where she said
>something along the lines of people from the Hut had a distinction
>she could see and that Chiba sensei's students did not have. That,
>at first read, sounded like only the Hut students were identifiable
>in a police line-up. "There officer, there's the person who threw
>me. He had a distinctive way of moving that I shall never forget."
>I had the first reaction you had to that since, by example, when I
>first saw you and Mark C. talking with each other at the list seminar
>I thought you had trained with each other because there was a
>simliarity of manner between you two.
>I think What Ruth was trying to say is that Hut students have a
>distinctive manner about them that is different than the
>characteristics/manner etc. that she identifies with Chiba's students
>or people from Iwama-ryu. I don't think she was intending to sound
>as though other groups are a non-distinguishable lump of moving
>bodys and parts. :-)
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:20:01 -0000
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Julian Frost
>Ok... so I'm confused... what you appear to be saying is that you can spot
>who has trained at The Hut, based on your experience training at The Hut.
>How is that different from me saying that I can spot USAF-WR students
>based on my experience with Chiba sensei (note that I didn't say "Students
>of Chiba sensei", but "USAF-WR students" -- meaning direct students of
>Chiba sensei as well as second, third and even fourth generation students
>of his)?
It is no different, and I never said it was. In fact it is exactly the same. No
confusion necessary!
>You can recognize people who trained at The Hut, and Iwama people
>recognize other Iwama people. So what's your point?
Trying to make clear the above. Nothing more, nothing less.
Everybody else who wrote anything along this thread understood the concept I was
outlining (Recognising your own, etc). I'm sorry you chose to be confused by it.
Blend and flow Julian :-)
Ruth
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:55:15 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Ruth Mc William wrote:
> It is no different, and I never said it was. In fact it is exactly the
> same. No confusion necessary!
Ok. Got it! Thanks! ;-)
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:04:40 -0000
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: UK Aikido history
Michael White asked:
>Interesting... I may be stepping into this rather late (I
>just got back from a few days in Hong Kong) but can you
>define what this "characteristic/manner" of Hut students is,
>Ruth, if you haven't already?
Errrr... not really define it so much as recognise it when I see it. It's waaay
too subtle for my descriptive abilities to do it justice!
>I trained occasionally at the Hut and for the best part of
>a decade under one of Messrs Foster and Ellis' students and
>I'm curious to know if I exhibit it as well... :-)
Possibly. Who were you training under, if you don't mind me asking? I can see
the different influences of the different IA instructors in their students as
well, that being very much my playground for the last 10 years!
>Mind you, I'm a bit of an aiki-mongrel now, having started
>off with Tomiki-ryu aikido, joined the Institute of Aikido
>(with its Iwama-ryu influenced weapons syllabus) whilst at
>University and ended up here in Tokyo with the Aikikai.
This is IMHO a good thing as cross training broadens the abilities. The way I
see it, it gives you a few extra tricks up your sleeve to deal with awkward ukes
;-)
Glad you're still training!
Ruth
---------------------------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002