Aikido on animals
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:13:06 +0800
From: Aylwin Tan
Subject: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
By the way, this may sound kind of stupid but I was just wondering, has
anyone ever had the opportunity to perform Aikido techniques on an animal?
Because I think if I was attacked by a stray dog or something on the road, I
wouldn't have any idea what to do except to run (probably the
smartest/stupidest thing to do). What about a bear attack during camping? Or
snakes (pretty rampant in the Asia).
Anyway, I don't think many people (if even any) might have had the chance of
using Aikido techniques on animals these days in the urban jungle. But I
thought maybe in the old days, there might have been some region or
countries where attacks by wild animals were pretty frequent. So ... who
knows <shrug>? Anyone know of any real stories to share?
Aylwin
"One does not need buildings, money, power, or status to practice the Art of
Peace. Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to
train." -- O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:44:14 +0100
From: Reconics
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
Hello Aylwin/All,
In the book "Aikido and the new warrior" there is an interesting essay By 0.
Fred Donaldson entitled "On Aikido, Wolves and Other Wildlife" where he
talks about his experiences of 'playing?' with a pack of wolves using
Aikido, although admittedly the wolves didn't seem to have food on the mind
during his encounters!
Steve Woods
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:01:04 -0400
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
Yeah, I've used them on my dad's dog a few times, and on my cat once or
twice.
The dog likes to leap up at you...guess that's why they call them Springer
Spaniels :^)...if you do nothing he bounces off your chest (if you are 6'6"
(198 cm) like me anyway :^). If you wait until he's airborn and then
tenkan, he misses every time...and he doesn't like the ukemi, so he soon
quits leaping at you. Until the next day anyway (he's got a very short
memory I guess).
With the cat the problem is getting her into her carrier to go to the vet.
She doesn't like the vet. I've found that if you stuff her head into the
open end (it's basically a gym bag built like an APC...drops one end for
loading), and then slack up on your grip, she will think she has a chance
for escape, and leaps forward to turn around to run out again...but while
she's turning, I'm closing the flap! That "lead the mind" stuff isn't too
hard, even on a smart cat. They tend to go instinctive when they feel
threatened at all, and their instincts are fairly predictable.
Are those "techniques"? Well, the tenkan is, but the cat thing is just
principles, not a specific technique.
>Because I think if I was attacked by a stray dog or something on the road, I
>wouldn't have any idea what to do except to run (probably the
>smartest/stupidest thing to do).
Running from a dog is pretty stupid...that's what they *want* you to do.
They are at least 10 mph faster than an olympic sprinter, so unless you've
got someplace to hide or climb that's very close, you won't do anything
except expose the backs of your legs to bites.
If you can get your back against something, do that, but keep facing them.
That tends to put them off if they aren't really serious about attacking
you. If they show any hesitation at all, sometimes running at *them* will
break their interest in bothering you...if they don't, then don't try it.
If there are several dogs, or if the dog is really large and aggressive,
you are in deep trouble, so don't panic. You've got enough problems
without that! :^) Keep in mind that you are smarter than them, you have
several effective weapons (feet, hands, and even teeth) and you probably
outweigh them and could very well be stronger. They have a darn good bite
though, so keep clear of the mouth. If they do bite, don't pull out...that
just injures you and makes them bite harder...force whatever they've got
hold of down their throat. Even if you can't get it down their throat, you
may stimulate the gag reflex and get them to open their jaws so you can get
loose. Some dogs bite and slash rather than bite and hold, so this isn't
always the problem.
Hitting them in the head won't do much. You also aren't likely to strangle
one...the neck muscles are really strong. The chest is also pretty
tough...I've seen Labrador Retrievers kicked hard enough between the front
legs to lift them off the ground, and they completely ignored it and
weren't injured at all. The eyes are vulnerable, but are a small target.
The nose and muzzle area in general is sensitive to sharp blows
though...but that's awfully close to those teeth. The legs aren't all that
strong, and you could perhaps dislocate them at the hip or shoulder if you
can get a grip. A knee drop onto the ribs might also do some damage, but
if it puts you on the ground afterwards, it better work!
A weapon of some sort is highly recommended...a boar spear for
example...though if you've got one of those noose-on-a-stick things the
animal control people use, and are only dealing with one dog, you are
probably in decent shape. I've held off a large and medium-agressive dog
with a heavy cane once. Threatening it made it back off, so I never
actually had to hit it...just kept it away long enough to make it to my
door. The dog seemed well aware of what a club was for, and didn't want to
get within swinging distance while it was raised.
[ Moderator : Excluded ]
-- Mike "unless they are poisonous, snakes aren't a real problem" Bartman
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:28:20 -0400
From: Marc Kupper
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
> (where the heck is a bear's center??)
Shouldn't it be pretty much in the same place as any other four legged critter
which is a couple inches above where the rear legs rotate on the body? For
people we have normally measured down from the navel but you can also measure up
from the hip joints.
Yesterday I was visiting the in-laws and one of their kids had a plastic
dinosaur that included a flat piece of "ground" that the dinosaur had it's two
rear legs and one fore leg on. I was playing with this and realized when I had
it balanced on the pointy tip of a salt shaker that our dino's center was also
just above the line through the hip joints and that the guy could remain
"centered" while both standing up and leaning forwards by adjusting it's tail.
Marc
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:12:12 -0400
From: Howard Scott
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
At 04:28 PM 15-04-2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > (where the heck is a bear's center??)
A guy who used to visit our dojo sometimes, Frank, once lent me a video in
which he took on a circus-style wrestling bear.
First he observed the bear's technique, which was simple. It would make
contact and get his weight against its human opponent, then reach down and
grab a leg and dump the guy over. Nobody could resist the bear's superior
weight and strength.
The bear had be trained not to do any serious damage, just unbalance its
challengers. Once guy made the mistake of trying to intimidate the hairy
fellow with punch in the snout. The bear was not please and broke his leg.
Atemi is not a good idea in all circumstances, it would seem.
Anyway Frank took note of the bear's technique and thought about how aikido
could be used against it. He approached the bear then dropped to his knees.
That way he could get his centre under the bears and also keep the bear
from grabbing a leg. Kokyu dosa basically. He was the only guy able to take
the bear's balance. He came out if with some pretty sore muscles (bears are
strong!), but he applied the principles and they worked.
Of course, this was a tame bear playing by the rules. I wouldn't suggest
this approach in the wild.
Happy camping,
Howard
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 06:29:41 +0900
From: Christopher Li
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
Gozo Shioda used to train with his dog in the park by provoking it until
it attacked him and then practicing evasions. Apparently it made the dog
so mean that nobody but him could handle it.
Best,
Chris
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:37:40 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
Running from either a dog or a bear is not smart. Either can outrun you,
and if you're running you look like prey.
I've actually performed a no-touch irimi nage/kokyu nage variation on a
~30 lb. German shepherd/St. Bernard mix puppy. She dove at my hand,
which I used to lead her forward, then up, causing her to fall over
backwards. It worked pretty much the same way the same technique would
with a human. It was a playful situation, not an actual attack. Still
the approach seemed like it might be worth a try with unfriendly dogs.
For bears, try looking at the US National Park Service site, or possibly
the Yellowstone National Park site. One of those places should have the
Park Service's "official" recommendation for dealing with bears. They
might have suggestions for dealing with snakes, too. Of course, the
species of bears and snakes in your part of the world might be different
from the indigenous North American ones.
Katherine
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:45:43 +0200
From: Kjartan Clausen
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Flying Monkey wrote:
}
}But what about the guy in the Mt. Dew commercial who fought off
}a ram by butting heads? Isn't that an effective defense? Or
No, because the human skull is not constructed to deal with headbutting like
that. If you're trying that against a ram, whose head _is_ constructed like
that, the ram will only end up with red & gray jam on his horns and you will
have to deal with the Aiki-devil in the afterlife.
What you could try though, is a shiho-nage. We've had long discussions on
shiho-nage on horses and cows before, so I think it ought to work aganst a
ram too.
--
Kjartan Clausen Aikido is Origami with people instead of paper (tm)
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:48:26 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
>Yesterday I was visiting the in-laws and one of their kids had a plastic
dinosaur that included a flat piece of "ground" that the dinosaur had it's two
rear legs and one fore leg on. I was playing with this and realized when I had
it balanced on the pointy tip of a salt shaker that our dino's center was also
just above the line through the hip joints and that the guy could remain
"centered" while both standing up and leaning forwards by adjusting it's tail.
Ah, something I know something about, at last. Actually, it depends a lot
on the animal. Dinosaurs were notably hip animals - their hind quarters
were bigger than their fore quarters and most had a substantial tail. Even
a triceratops (with a small tail) had a notably big butt. Mammals, OTOH,
are more inclined the other way. A buffalo is probably the prime example.
Huge fore quarters and a skinny little butt. For a rhino or elephant, the
head is pretty massive, so the center is probably not too far behind the
front legs. Some of both kinds were somewhat intermediate. A brontosaurid
was more evenly distributed, as is a horse. Man is unusual in having so
much weight in the legs (and sometimes woman even more so :-), but the other
great apes are rather top heavy.
So where is the center of a bear? Too damn close to its teeth and claws for
me ever to want to find out. Gil, however, has probably wrestled with a
few. Seriously, with the shoulders you see on bears it's center could well
be up around its solar plexus rather than a couple of inches above the hip
joint. (Remember bears don't have long legs, even if they can run at 30
mph.)
Alan
ps Biggest guy I ever threw with koshi nage claimed to be 450 lbs. That is
just a small bear. Gimme that 7.62 mm slr (and I don't mean camera).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:32:43 +0200
From: Kjartan Clausen
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
Being from Norway, I just have to point out that polar bears are built a bit
differently than other bears. They have a much bigger butt and lower center
of gravity should it ever see the need for standing in its hind legs.
There's a nice pic at
http://home.sol.no/~pgunolse/d2009.htm
And an even nicer at
http://home.sol.no/~pgunolse/d4015.htm
As far as ordinary bears go, it looks like they're pretty heavy in the aft
region too. At least from this example:
http://home.sol.no/~pgunolse/d1023.jpg
--
Kjartan Clausen Aikido is Origami with people instead of paper (tm)
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:36:52 -0400
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
At 09:45 AM 4/16/02 +0200, Kjartan Clausen wrote:
>What you could try though, is a shiho-nage. We've had long discussions on
>shiho-nage on horses and cows before, so I think it ought to work aganst a
>ram too.
I'd guess that there are other techniques that would work too...any of the
"tenkan and lead in a circle" ones, if you use the horns rather than a
"wrist" as the contact point.
You could also tenkan, grab the horns and "kotegaishi"...in the rodeo they
call that "bulldogging" I believe...
-- Mike "I wouldn't try a 'touchless throw' though" Bartman --
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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 22:13:14 -0400
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Aikido on Animals? Anyone?
Mike Bartman wrote:
>Don't know about .41 mag, but there's a .44 mag semi-auto...I've held one
>(though not fired it). It's made by an Israeli company..."Dessert Eagle"
>is the model I belive, and I think it comes in smaller calibers too.
And bigger, as well. You're right, of course,I guess I always think of .50
caliber when I think of the Desert Eagle. Their .44 mag just slipped my
mind. My apologies, Al.
>>I suspect .45 acp
>I doubt it would have the penetration needed.
>not that I wouldn't try it if that's all I had.
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, I would not use one on a bear unless I had to.
A large bore revolver or a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs would be my
choice. Even better, as I do at the moment, I'd just avoid being where the
bears are.
How does this relate to aikido? I guess it means you should use the right
tool for the right job, just as in aikido, one should always use a
technique appropriate to the energy of uke's attack rather than trying to
force ones favorite technique to somehow deal with uke.
How was that, Jun?
;-)
Jake
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Last updated on 13 Sep 2002
