Aikido and Mysticism
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002
12:07:29 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Aikido and mysticism
Jun asked for more on-topic posts, which gives me an excuse to open this
potential can of worms:
How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical underpinnings with your
own religious beliefs?
I'm not talking about the usual "I can't do aikido because I'm not
allowed to bow" question. I'm thinking more of the fact that a lot of
Ueshiba's ideas about energy flow, harmony with the universe, etc. were
drawn from a fairly esoteric branch of Shinto. How necessary are those
ideas to an advanced understanding of aikido principles? Is it possible
to divorce those ideas from their religious context? And if not, how do
you integrate those ideas with your own beliefs?
I haven't actually thought about the question much myself. It came up at
a dojo dinner last night and I thought I'd throw it out to a larger
audience. As a bit of context, my own teacher is the author of "The
Spiritual Foundations of Aikido," which is one of the few books in
English that even addresses Ueshiba's mystical ideas. He clearly thinks
they are important to his understanding of the art.
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:27:20 -0700
From: Paul Gowder
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
Wow, an on-topic discussion that one can participate in without being on
the mat recently! Neat.
I think part of the answer is that his ideas can be compatible with any
religios/spiritual framework, or lack thereof. Whether you want to call
it an energy flow/higher state of consciousness caused by the Serpent
Kundhalini (sp??), or Christian Brother/Sisterhood, or a manifestation of
one's True Will, or a way to serve Allah through peace, or a love for
Mother Earth and all her creatures, or Satori (don't even MAKE me get
into the more obscure religions), you can beat "universal harmony" into
just about any faith. Or even, straight utilitarian athiesim. -- and
just about every religion has an idea of divine energy ("holy spirit,"
that whole serpent thing again, magic(k), taoist chi, etc.) that can be
accessed by worshippers, either with or without divine assistance. (plus
there's always the good old athiest quantum physics -- in an old VKS Ki
Notes, on the web somewhere, there's an article by Steve Kendall about
"the physics of ki")
The ideas of universal harmony and ineffable energy really transcend
individual religions.
-Paul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:51:32 -0700
From: Lorien Lowe
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
--- Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical
> underpinnings with your own religious beliefs?
Some of it I use as metaphor, and some of it I just
try to accept without thinking too much about it - the
'ki' stuff, in particular. I don't know why changing
the way I think changes the effectiveness of the
technique, when I can't feel any difference in my
body, but it does.
> ...a lot of
> Ueshiba's ideas about energy flow, harmony with
> the universe, etc. were
> drawn from a fairly esoteric branch of Shinto.
My Sensei uses physics to describe this, for the most
part (he gets fairly involved, with drawings on the
chalk board and so on - and it fits with what I'm
being taught in my classes); I think it's just the
same ideas in different wrappings, but it makes it a
little easier to grasp.
The part I have a hard time with, and that I try not
to think too much about, is how much my own thoughts
and those of others affect the rest of the universe
and the potential future sequences of events.
It seems obvious that the universe is affected when I
change my mind about something, in that my mind is a
part of the universe; how much, if at all, does it go
beyond that? And it seems obvious that potential
future courses of action are limited by what I
perceive as possible or necessary, but where and how
does that limitation occur?
> Is it possible to divorce those ideas from their
> religious context?
Depends on how you define 'religious.'
-Lorien
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:03:47 -0400
From: Jim Mc Coy
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
Talking about the mysticism may help you understand what O'Sensei thought and
believed. But it is also said that Aikido was taught to him by a spirit. Do
you list "a spirit" in your lineage or Takeda?
If teaching about Ki is a problem for you, try replacing that word with
"adrenaline", like my Goju Ryu teacher did.
In times past, people explained what was not understood with stories of the
supernatural. When volcanoes erupted, it was not beacause of geological causes
- it was because the volcano god was angryy. Same as when it rained or did not
rain.
A long time ago, through trial and error, great martial artists discovered that
"when I stand like this, I am weak and when I stand like that I am strong".
Thier conclusion - "When I stand like that, then the gods are with me".
Now we have science and understand leverage, body mechanics, momentum, etc...
jm
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:32:16 -0500
From: Randy Bosetti
Subject: Mysticism, Free Speech, and Standards of Behavior
#include <disclaimer.h>
Lorien writes:
*snip*
'ki' stuff, in particular. I don't know why changing
the way I think changes the effectiveness of the
technique, when I can't feel any difference in my
body, but it does.
*snip*
I'm going to get really "grounded" here, for lack of a better explanation.
(Free Speech/Mysticism)
Disregarding the wizened old-man sayings about ki for a moment, the
one defining thing I have found in ki and budo concepts in
general is that your outlook must be "$%!@ the laws of common sense,
I'm gonna do it anyway!" (Here is where implied harsh language might
make a point :) I know it's a hackneyed idea, but if you believe you can't
do something, you can't. When you cut with your bokken, if you act like
you're whacking your partner, it turns into a baseball bat. Conversely, if
you believe that you can cut with the bokken, then your body shifts properly
and your timing comes together. Quite literally, the body does follow the
mind.
I don't think many people realize just how sensitive our bodies are. The
sort of focus that must be achieved to aid the flow of ki also gives us
awareness of the subtle differences in our posture and movement.
*snip*
The part I have a hard time with, and that I try not
to think too much about, is how much my own thoughts
and those of others affect the rest of the universe
and the potential future sequences of events.
It seems obvious that the universe is affected when I
change my mind about something, in that my mind is a
part of the universe; how much, if at all, does it go
beyond that? And it seems obvious that potential
*snip*
Researchers at Princeton have gathered scientific evidence
which, they believe, proves that human consciousness
actually *does* affect the nature of reality.
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/
[ * Moderator : Excluded * ]
Randy "Three topics in one post! w00t!" Bosetti
--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:02:29 -0400
From: Paul Laxon
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism (and physics)
> > ...a lot of
> > Ueshiba's ideas about energy flow, harmony with
> > the universe, etc. were
> > drawn from a fairly esoteric branch of Shinto.
>
> My Sensei uses physics to describe this, for the most
> part (he gets fairly involved, with drawings on the
> chalk board and so on - and it fits with what I'm
> being taught in my classes); I think it's just the
> same ideas in different wrappings, but it makes it a
> little easier to grasp.
I've always had an interest in the physics of aikido (not that it will make
my aikido any better--like understanding conservation of momentum doesn't
make my pool playing abilities any better).
Can you give me any more details on how he uses the physics to describe it?
Does he reference any books (like Fritjo Capra's "Tao of Physics")?
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:05:15 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
>
> Jun asked for more on-topic posts, which gives me an excuse to open this
> potential can of worms:
> How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical underpinnings with your
> own religious beliefs?
Paul Gowder wrote:
> The ideas of universal harmony and ineffable energy really transcend
> individual religions.
I would agree with Paul, and thank Katherine for an interesting ontopic
post I hope to see more discussion of....
As I've explored in discussions with some listka, I consider myself a
spiritual atheist.
By atheist, I mean that I have never beleived in an omnipotent creator
and have never had a moment of "faith," which as near as I can tell is
essential to the experience of belief in a deity (a person cannot
convince me of "God" based on logic); I am completely comfortable with
random chaos and no greater meaning in life other than what a person
decides/believes/acts on.
By spiritual, I mean that there is a connection I am acutely aware of
with the world around me, so that I am profoundly moved by being present
at passages into and out of life, at the flight of migrating cranes, at
the moon rising over the ocean. And striving on the mat to be open and
sincere in each moment, learning to literally feel that connection with
my partner in a physical sense, is a part of that for me also....
janet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:17:12 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical underpinnings
> with your own religious beliefs?
Well, specifically, I'm not much of one for using the term
_religious beliefs_ (too many atrocities have been committed
under that guise). I prefer to call the concept "faith", and
consider it a far more personal, yet universally encompassing and
creative process, than a sterile set of rules, no matter how
divinely inspired or well-motivated, can ever define. For me,
faith is a verb that involves plugging into a greater creative
energy, whatever the outward form my religious practices may
take. The underlying spiritual/mystical underpinnings of aikido
do not appear to be incompatible with the core of any faith
practices, once you get below the surface rhetoric. Read the
writings of great religious mystics (Gurjieff, St. John of the
Cross, to name two), study Tantric Buddhism, Tao,
Judeo-Christianity, Asceticism, Animism, even Vodun... you find
that a greater power is at the core of all belief, all faith.
And, in keeping with Ueshiba's take on the matter, also the
responsibility for how that power is used.
> I'm thinking...that a lot of Ueshiba's ideas about energy flow,
> harmony with the universe, etc. were drawn from a fairly esoteric
> branch of Shinto. How necessary are those ideas to an advanced
> understanding of aikido principles?
I think they're vital, although they do not have to be presented
in a religious context at all, or couched in religious terms, for
those who aen't religious. A simple example: An automobile
engine. With oil, it moves easily; without it, it siezes up.
With oil, the parts work in harmony; without, there is friction
and things break down. Ki, Chi... whatever... is the oil.
> Is it possible to divorce those ideas from their religious context?
I just said I felt it was. Some may not see it that way; I do.
From my standpoint, however, I don't feel compelled to do so, as
I do not find them incompatible with my faith.
The Universe (spirit/energy) has been in existance since before
creation as we define it scientifically and religiously:
long before clocks kept time, before the world was made.
You meet it sometimes unexpectedly, in an unguarded moment,
when you aren't looking for inspiration or hope or benevolence...
you greet it in inexplicable coincidence... irony... perfect
flow.
It is always there, unchanging, even when we think it absent, and
we are always connected to it, consciously or unconsciously. By
being willing to recognize it's existance and it's importance to
every aspect of our lives, we connect more fully to it and our
Path is expanded... and we grow. Block it, and we cut ourselves
off from the ever-flowing wellspring of renewal.
This may sound mystical: there's something there, and there's not
a shred of doubt in my mind that it's unchanging and it's worth
exploring further and understanding better. I'm committed to
that, period.
My two cents.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 09:12:39 -0700
From: Lorien Lowe
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism (and physics)
--- Paul Laxon wrote:
> Can you give me any more details on how he
> uses the physics to describe it?
> Does he reference any books (like Fritjo Capra's
> "Tao of Physics")?
Ummm. I can try...
A lot of it comes out in his weapons work,
specifically bo. He talks about the standing wave
produced in the stick when you tap it, holding it in
the right place so that the wave isn't dampened (easy
to feel, about 1/4 of the way down the stick). He
likes logarithmic spirals.
He talks about how, when before someone makes a
decision to attack, there are many possibilities open
to them: back away, go sideways, etc, but as they
focus on the attack their possibilities narrow and
contract until there is only one place to go (towards
nage), and one line to follow; to get off that
line-of-action, they have to change their mind, and
that takes time. Nage still has the whole field of
possibilities because they haven't decided to attack
(but if uke becomes unfocused afterwards and nage
concentrates on 'throwing' uke, uke can reverse).
That's about as much justice as I can do for it.
Sorry.
He dosen't reference any books.
-Lorien
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:51:30 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
>From: A J Garcia
>
>Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> > How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical underpinnings
> > with your own religious beliefs?
This is an interesting topic for me, my teacher is also a Rev. so the
subject often comes up.
Hmmm, having just read the above makes me conjure up visions of him
preaching on the mat, which is completely opposite to what he actually does
:o)
I've heard him say a few things about religion that make me think, I mean he
generally doesn't take the bible literally at face value, the other week he
was reading about Elijah, and he said that it says that Elijah rained down
fire on some 50 or so people who came to arrest him or something, his next
comment was somehting like: it doesn't say how he rained down fire on them,
maybe he had a catapault.
I think thats the sort of attitude that suits me, it doesn't mean that you
can't have faith in things, but it does mean that you won't take things at
face value just because they're written or taught in the traditional way.
Ignorance is no way to honour god.
Personally I don't have any religious beliefs, never have had. I mean I can
neveer in my life remember a time when I believed in anything that i was
taught from a religious point of view. so I don't have any trouble
reconciling that aspect of Aikido with my religious beliefs, being that I
have none.
I do have trouble reconciling aspects of Aikido with my scientific opinions
a lot. Is that the same problem then?
Mike Haft
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:36:00 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
Katherine Derbyshire writes:
>Jun asked for more on-topic posts, which gives me an excuse to open
>this potential can of worms: How do you reconcile aikido's
>spiritual/mystical underpinnings with your own religious beliefs?
I thought about this one for a while but no grand insights here :)
In my case there's no conflict. I've never quite understood why there
is a conflict for some (though I accept there can be). But then my
religious beliefs tend toward the more spiritual rather than the
organized religion variety. I also have no trouble with taking a
metaphorical approach to interpreting either religious or spiritual
concept. A more literal approach I suppose would result in less
ability to reconcile them.
--
Cindy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 01:14:27 -0400
From: Sean Murphy
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
Sorry I'm a few days behind...
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
>Jun asked for more on-topic posts, which gives me an excuse to open this
>potential can of worms:
>How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical underpinnings with your
>own religious beliefs?
>
Well, to me, the "mysticism" falls into the "what is Ki?" area. I won't
get into that, but I'll say that I don't think believing in Ki conflicts
with my religious beliefs because, being a Catholic, there are really
only two things:
1) God
2) Everything else, made by God
Before anyone jumps onto my above definitions, please understand that
thsoe are WAY oversimplified, and if you wanna engage in debate over
religion, do it somewhere else.
The way I see it, if Ki/spirituality/etc replaces my concept of God,
then we got a problem. Otherwise, it's just something God has given us,
so to speak. So no, it doesn't clash. Not the way I see it.
But then, it's late here and I'm tired ;)
Sean "Samurai Smurf" Murphy (StMa)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:36:29 -0400
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Aikido and mysticism
At 01:14 AM 5/21/02 -0400, Sean Murphy wrote:
>Sorry I'm a few days behind...
>
>Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
>
>>Jun asked for more on-topic posts, which gives me an excuse to open this
>>potential can of worms:
>>How do you reconcile aikido's spiritual/mystical underpinnings with your
>>own religious beliefs?
>
>Well, to me, the "mysticism" falls into the "what is Ki?" area.
What about the clapping in some dojos before class? That's Shinto in
origin I believe. Similar to "knocking on wood" in the west...designed to
wake up the good spirits.
What about things like "bell misogi", or things like jumping in cold rivers
in the spring that some dojos do?
>I won't
>get into that, but I'll say that I don't think believing in Ki conflicts
>with my religious beliefs because, being a Catholic, there are really
>only two things:
>
>1) God
>2) Everything else, made by God
I don't have any religious problems with ki because I don't have a
religion. I had some problems with ki initially, since it didn't seem to
be fitting into my scientific view of the universe, but parts of it did
after some study, and I expect the rest will to with some more. In the
mean time, I still get useful effects by assuming that it exists and doing
as I've been taught.
-- Mike "experiment has shown the value of that" Bartman --
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002