Kiatsu
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:40:51 -0700
From: ian
Subject: Kiatsu?
So I searched the archives and only found one message regarding
Kiatsu. Hopefully someone can answer a few questions I have :)
First off, I'm /extremely/ interested in Kiatsu (Kiatsuho?), but
I'm having trouble finding decent information on it on the web. Is Kiatsu
technically a part of Aikido training, or is it something seperate? If the
latter, is it generally associated with Aikido because both arts require
mastery of Ki?
If anyone has any links or books they could reccomend, I'd
appreciate it. Also, if it's a seperate art, how would I go about finding
a teacher (I'm in Colorado)?
Please correct me as necessary -- I wish I was more knowledgeable
on the subject.
--ian
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:18:58 -0500
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:09:44 -0500, Carol Shifflett wrote:
>Personally I go with the myotherapy approach.
>That provides the basic physiology underlying the seeming "magic"
>of kiatsu. Some are annoyed by that, preferring magic.
>Others are annoyed (and very reasonably so) by claims that appear
>to be too magical to be real (or downright dangerous), such as
>"Kiatsu cured appendicitis."
>However, the classic referred pain patterns documented in myotherapy
>research over many decades combines the two very nicely and logically.
From what you described at the last aikido-l seminar and from my
personal experience with kiatsu, I wouldn't be so annoyed with you
trying to say that they are the same. I just would not be terribly
impressed with such a shallow assessment. If one is interested in
developing the sensitivity useful for soft aikido technique, I would
suggest taking the time to explore the methodology Tohei Sensei
uses is worth investigating. If one just wants to treat a muscle pronto
or talk lingo with an M.D., then I am sure finding a massage person
who uses myotherapy theory or reading the myotherapy book is
worthwhile. However some overlap of identifiable physiology or
anatomy doesn't make the approaches identical.
There is more to kiatsu than what's in the book or in someone's
notes. Making it in to just another massage misses the mark IMO.
ok, so I was a little annoyed,
Craig
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:26:29 -0500
From: Rebecca Nisley
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
Carol Shifflett talked about her take on Tohei Sensei's "ki-atsu" ---
Personally I go with the myotherapy approach ...the basic physiology
underlying the seeming "magic" of kiatsu. ... the classic referred pain
patterns documented in myotherapy research over many decades combine the two
very nicely and logically.
> >
Craig Hocker responded ---
From what you described at the last aikido-l seminar and from my personal
experience with kiatsu, I wouldn't be so annoyed with you trying to say that
they are the same. ... I would suggest taking the time to explore the
methodology Tohei Sensei uses... some overlap of identifiable physiology or
anatomy doesn't make the approaches identical. There is more to kiatsu than
what's in the book or in someone's notes. Making it into just another
massage misses the mark IMO.
Rebecca Nisley chimes in to agree with Craig ---
I've had ki-atsu from whole lots of folks, from fellow dojo mates to George,
to Kashiwaya, to Tohei sensei himself, and IT DOES WORK and IT IS DIFFERENT
from straightforward myotherapy, which I like too. And I've given it too,
and been amazed. The art of ki-atsu is about "pressing with ki" and there is
a whale of a difference, both for the giver and the recipient. I don't
understand it, but I don't call it magic, because that has connotations that
I don't like. I prefer to think that it is simply something that we don't
understand yet. An important part of the doing is skill in allowing the ki
to flow from oneself to another.
I do not want to denigrate what Carol is doing, for pressing with ki at
trigger points and other good places I have found to be very interesting and
extremely useful. The lines I think are good for treating regular
garden-variety tension. Injuries need special treatment. Anyway, I need to
go upstairs and start to work (fortunately for $$) on my millstone, the
Woody Plant Seed Manual. More later --- Rebecca "who'd love some kiatsu on
her back right now" Nisley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:22:27 +0000
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
>From: Rebecca Nisley
>
>Rebecca Nisley chimes in to agree with Craig ---
>I've had ki-atsu from whole lots of folks, from fellow dojo mates to
>George,
>to Kashiwaya, to Tohei sensei himself, and IT DOES WORK and IT IS DIFFERENT
>from straightforward myotherapy, which I like too.
I've still got reservations about kiatsu, me being scientifically minded I
attempt to keep an open mind about it, but anytime I've had kiatsu I've not
been entirely convinced that its actually done anything. Whereas myotherapy
type stuff I *know* has helped a few minor injuries I've had, I'm not
entirely certain that any of the beneficial effects of kiatsu couldn't be
atributed to their myotheraputic (is that a word?) nature.
I'm happy to believe in ki, and I'm happy to believe that kiatsu is about
more than just pressure with ki, but I've still not felt any great effects
from it. Hmm, maybe I just need to feel it fom a *really* good kiatsu giver
:o)
Anyway, I need to
>go upstairs and start to work (fortunately for $$) on my millstone, the
>Woody Plant Seed Manual.
Sounds interesting, I presume it's a N.American seeds manual rather than
something I might find useful ;op
On to the grindstone :o( I've got to go home now and do some digging as i've
been asked to write some articles for an environmental magazine.
Speaking of which anyone know where I can get details of legislation passed
by the US government in the last 10 years on the subject of environment?
More later --- Rebecca "who'd love some kiatsu on
>her back right now" Nisley
>
I wouldn't mind some on mine either :o)
Mike Haft
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:01:41 -0500
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:22:27 +0000, Mike wrote:
>I've still got reservations about kiatsu, me being scientifically minded I
>attempt to keep an open mind about it, but anytime I've had kiatsu I've not
>been entirely convinced that its actually done anything. Whereas myotherapy
>type stuff I *know* has helped a few minor injuries I've had, I'm not
>entirely certain that any of the beneficial effects of kiatsu couldn't be
>atributed to their myotheraputic (is that a word?) nature.
part of missing the mark for an aikidoist IMO is in focusing on receiving
kiatsu rather becoming better at giving kiatsu.
Craig
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:06:19 -0500
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
Howdy,
Brother Craig:
> part of missing the mark for an aikidoist IMO is in
> focusing on receiving kiatsu rather becoming better
> at giving kiatsu.
I think Brother Craig means "Ki-aikidoist."
And I agree.
For the record my giving/receiving kiatsuho ratio is approx. 100 to 1.
[man am I geting ripped off]
As for what I'm actually doing: myo-this, accu-that, I don't care.
I know what works, I know how to make people feel better (though I admit I
haven't cured appendicitis yet). I've even helped folks who were
apprehensive and/or downright skeptical.
I've taken classes, done plenty of reading, but the best thing to do is
work with a variety of people and use some of that kinesthetic intution
(like that unwinding technique that the poorly chapeau'd Janet taught at
Aikido-L #4) to find out what works. Press with Ki, rub with Ki--whatever
the Hell that means--it's all good. If I don't think I can help someone, I
simply tell them to get to a doctor.
And yes, Rebecca...it ain't magic.
Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:52:26 -0800
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
Jon C Strauss wrote:
> I've taken classes, done plenty of reading, but the best thing to do is
> work with a variety of people and use some of that kinesthetic intution
> (like that unwinding technique that the poorly chapeau'd Janet taught at
> Aikido-L #4) to find out what works. Press with Ki, rub with Ki--whatever
> the Hell that means--it's all good. If I don't think I can help someone, I
> simply tell them to get to a doctor.
That's about how I feel: when I am on the receiving end, a person with
sensitive intuition and a little knowledge generally does better for me
than a person with certification who "hits" all the "right" points, but
with the energy of a fire hydrant, giving me nothing to recieve/work
with.
janet
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:10:30 +0000
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
>From: Craig
>
>part of missing the mark for an aikidoist IMO is in focusing on receiving
>kiatsu rather becoming better at giving kiatsu.
>
But what if i were to tell you that I practice giving it and know that I'm
getting better at giving it from what I can tell myself, yet I still have
trouble determining what effect it has on me if any. So what is kiatsu
supposed to do for you anyway? Then maybe I'll know what tom look for next
time.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:57:51 +0100
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: Kiatsu?
Craig wrote:
> >part of missing the mark for an aikidoist IMO is in focusing on receiving
> >kiatsu rather becoming better at giving kiatsu.
and Mike asked:
>But what if i were to tell you that I practice giving it and know that I'm
>getting better at giving it from what I can tell myself, yet I still have
>trouble determining what effect it has on me if any. So what is kiatsu
>supposed to do for you anyway? Then maybe I'll know what tom look for next
>time.
Interesting question. From a Shiatsu perspective, it is a well known fact that
giving Shiatsu
makes the giver feel better, therefore you should receive as much benefit from
giving as from
receiving. Personally I find that after giving Shiatsu I feel energised,
refreshed and also tired in a
good way (satisfaction of a job well done perhaps?) After receiving I tend to
feel a lot more wiped
out, although physically the aches and pains have diminished and my breathing is
better. It
helps if the people involved can actually work with each other's energy, so it's
best to work with
as many givers as possible, then you'll find who can help you the most. The more
experienced
practitioners have developed a level of sensitivity that allows them to work
with many different
people - they automatically know when to step it up and when to tone it down -
and they are a
joy to receive Shiatsu from!
I *think* Kiatsu is very similar to Shiatsu but doesn't include the stretches.
Correct me if I'm
wrong...
Ruth (always hoping to learn more!)
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Last updated on 13 Sep 2002