Unwritten Contract
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:32:36 +0200
From: Eva Fenrich
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract (was Re: AIKIDO-L Digest - 30(#2002-381))
Hi!
On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 04:13:59PM -0400, Jon C Strauss wrote:
> > You must admit, though, that each person has a different
> > concept of what consititutes acceptable damage.
>
> Yes, but mine is the only right one.
> ;-)
>
> > I have known people who expected to have broken bones;
>
> Not loving compassionate Ki-wee's?
Strange observation from dojo-hoppping:
I have a lot more injuries from so called "soft" style dojos
(not only ki-wees -- different styles) ....
I don't want to make generalisations -- maybe it was just bad luck--
but my impression is that in dojos with soft loving compassionate
aiki-fruity people the few mat bullies have a better chance to stay
the mat bully they are than in other dojos where they either get
some "payback" and learn the hard way or at least people tell
them...
and there are also the "this is Aikido ... it cannot hurt you"
people: they believe that whatever they do because it is all "love
and harmony" it won't hurt you....
I have permanent pain in my left ellbow and in my shoulders from some of
these "nice guys" and quite a few bruises ...
(every time the pain was nearly gone I had one of these "fruity
guys" twisting my arm in all different directions doing shiho or
whatever throw or putting a lock on me without any control...)
In harder style dojos I had more the "ouch that hurts" type of pain
from locks etc. that is usually gone after a few minutes or
maybe sometimes the "I think I should work on my ukemi" type of pain...
> I don't expect them, but I understand that there is a risk of that sorta
> thing happening.
I accept that risk (at least for getting hurt, not for hurting
people)...
just I don't want to accept that people repeatedly hurt you after
you tell them, that the way they do a technique causes a lot of
(unnecessary) pain...
I know that people make mistakes and I made more mistakes than I
can accept in this year on the mat... but at least I _try_ not to hurt
people ... some people don't even try....
> > I have known people who are offended by a bruised wrist.
>
> Did you kiss it and make it all better?
> It's up to the instructor to set the parameters.
some of these "loving harmony" instructors won't set any
parameters....
> If students want to go beyond them, then they should do so only with
> students who are like-minded--and on their own time.
>
> > The two do not mix well.
>
> You're not adding enough alcohol--that makes everything better.
No... you just cannot remember who it was who gave you that
pain ;-)
> > That's the problem with unwritten contracts.
>
> Yeah--there not worth the paper they're written on!
> [with apologies to Sam Goldwyn]
Something I wrote in my "training diary" a while ago:
Unwritten Contracts
These contracts when we step on the mat...
who judges if we keep within the limits of the contract?
me? you?
who sets up the contract?
how do I know what is within the limits?
tolerate getting hurt and taking pain
for me but not for others?
or giving lots of pain and screaming when
tori does a gentle yonkyo on me?
what if the negotiations fail?
plain misunderstanding?
What if one side fails to stay within the limits?
maybe the best judge is the mirror inside...
Eva
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:23:36 -0400
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract (was Re: AIKIDO-L Digest - 30(#2002-381))
Howdy,
Eva:
> I have a lot more injuries from so called "soft" style
> dojos (not only ki-wees -- different styles) ....
Hmmm, mine tend to come when I visit harder styles. Perhaps it has
something to do with the way we grab when dojo hopping.
Or just the fact that our own expectations get in the way of our ukemi
while we are visiting other styles.
aiki-fruity:
> mat bullies have a better chance to stay the mat bully
> they are than in other dojos where they either get some
> "payback" and learn the hard way or at least people tell
> them...
Not so sure about that one.
I've never really encountered any mat bullies in the Ki society dojos I've
frequented. Folks who throw too hard because they don't know any better,
yes--but "bullies," no.
> and there are also the "this is Aikido ... it cannot
> hurt you" people: they believe that whatever they do
> because it is all "love and harmony" it won't hurt you....
Wow--"Reality Check on Aisle Five, please!"
I can't wait to meet someone like that.
:->
> I just I don't want to accept that people repeatedly
> hurt you after you tell them, that the way they do a
> technique causes a lot of (unnecessary) pain...
Nor should you.
I have trained with some folks who claim "that's the way we do the
technique here" so I just crank up my ukemi a couple of notches...and
patiently await my turn as nage.
> some of these "loving harmony" instructors won't set
> any parameters....
Then (IMHO) they shouldn't be instructors.
>> You're not adding enough alcohol--that makes everything
>> better.
> No... you just cannot remember who it was who gave you
> that pain ;-)
LOL!
True enough.
> These contracts when we step on the mat...
> who judges if we keep within the limits of the
> contract? me? you? who sets up the contract?
> how do I know what is within the limits?
I think we both are witnessess to how much these contracts differ when we
visit with different styles/dojo. There may be a "contract" in these
instances, but apparently, no guarantees.
> maybe the best judge is the mirror inside...
Of your own tolerances, expectations and actions--for sure.
Peace,
JCS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:52:19 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract
Eva identified some very astute questions. Here is my take on the answers:
>These contracts when we step on the mat...
who judges if we keep within the limits of the contract?
me? you?
You do for you as uke. I do for me as uke. (Though as the teacher, I may
also pull the plug if I think there is too great a risk even between two
consenting adults.)
>who sets up the contract?
We do when we walk onto the mat.
>how do I know what is within the limits?
You watch. Preferably before stepping on the mat. (As teacher, I also keep
an eye on new people, to make sure they are fitting in well.)
>tolerate getting hurt and taking pain
for me but not for others?
>or giving lots of pain and screaming when
tori does a gentle yonkyo on me?
Getting hurt, injured, should not happen. Pain that goes away at once is
not a problem. Some techniques are supposed to hurt while being applied.
The dojo should be a safe place to try things out and to learn. If it is
not, I will soon learn to stay away.
>what if the negotiations fail?
Bow respectfully and leave. Either that partner, or that dojo.
>plain misunderstanding?
These things do happen, but should not be a problem with respect on both
sides.
>What if one side fails to stay within the limits?
Bow respectfully and leave. Either that partner, or that dojo.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:02:10 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract (was Re: AIKIDO-L Digest - 30(#2002-381))
From: "Jon C Strauss"
> Howdy,
>
> Eva:
> > I have a lot more injuries from so called "soft" style
> > dojos (not only ki-wees -- different styles) ....
>
> Hmmm, mine tend to come when I visit harder styles. Perhaps it has
> something to do with the way we grab when dojo hopping.
> Or just the fact that our own expectations get in the way of our ukemi
> while we are visiting other styles.
Hmmmm..... my dojo falls, I think, somewhere in between the two
extremes. FWIW, I tend to be more worried that hard style visitors will
get hurt. They often seem (yes, I know this is a wild generalization) to
have less sensitive ukemi and therefore to be less aware of when
resisting a technique is dangerous.
As a visitor at other dojos, I'm always very worried when I encounter
people who respond to "technique doesn't work" by
pushing/pulling/twisting harder. Those people seem to be more common at
hard style dojos, but they certainly exist everywhere.
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 21:39:18 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: silent practice
From: "Cindy"
> Heh! Or if hte technique involves a pin, you sloooowly set it up, ostensibly
> to get it just right, take your partner slooowly to just before the tap,
> and then sloooowly put his hand on his back, and sloooowly get up :-).*
> * no ukes were harmed during the production, of course
> Cindy
Oh....damn...caught. This is one of the few I find "acceptible" to myself and
have used....OKAY, STILL use when I get tired. I figure as long as you have uke
under control it is real learning and important.
AS UKE...I can be even more sneaky and prior to be let up (and having to bounce
up and attack) I say "um...I'm not really pinned right here" so they try it
again :-)
Some people pay attention to the pin, and the subsequent retreat/letup of the
pin. I think it is all part of doing goo aikido but I do see people WAY better
than me in aikido seemingly just not bother. Formally when you pin someone and
are going to let up, you ought to be moving away while still controlling them
til at the last you have them "pinned" with a hand basically and are just about
out of range.
I think...
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:56:25 -0700
From: susan dalton
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract (was Re: AIKIDO-L Digest - 30(#2002-381))
--- Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> > Eva:
> > > I have a lot more injuries from so called "soft"
> style
> > > dojos (not only ki-wees -- different styles)
> ....
> >
> > Hmmm, mine tend to come when I visit harder
> styles. Perhaps it has
> > something to do with the way we grab when dojo
> hopping.
> > Or just the fact that our own expectations get in
> the way of our ukemi
> > while we are visiting other styles.
>
> Hmmmm..... my dojo falls, I think, somewhere in
> between the two
> extremes. FWIW, I tend to be more worried that hard
> style visitors will
> get hurt. They often seem (yes, I know this is a
> wild generalization) to
> have less sensitive ukemi and therefore to be less
> aware of when
> resisting a technique is dangerous.
Labels can be extremely deceiving. What's funny to me
is that some folks see my style as soft and
ineffective and some see me as a scary hard-style
person. I think the style matter far less than the
person practicing. We have many types in our dojo,
and I've seen many types in other dojos. Meet me and
you'll judge my dojo one way; meet the head instructor
and you'll judge my dojo another way. I can't be
responsible for everybody in my family--much less for
everyone in my dojo or heaven forbid, my style. I
want to represent my dojo well when I visit, but just
because I screw up doesn't mean I wasn't taught
better. I'm one of those people for whom changing one
little thing throws everything completely off (which
can be a good thing) but I still may look like I have
no idea what I'm doing.
Susan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:49:32 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract
At 12:52 PM -0400 5/6/02, Drysdale, Alan E. wrote:
>>Some techniques are supposed to hurt while being applied.
Larry said:
>In some styles for sure, Alan, but not in all.... mine, for example. I'm
not being disputive, I just like to point out that there are many
different takes on this subject, as there are on many different
aspects to Aikido.
You are right of course. We can only talk from our own perspective, and for
most people that only includes one style.
>I constantly say while teaching - Don't do
anything TO your partner, do something WITH them.... and - Don't do a
technique to your partner, release them into it. For me, these are
different approaches, and we never go for pain. It is most
challenging with Nikkyo and Sankyo, but if one approaches Aikido from
the standpoint that technique is the product of a process, not
isolated application, then it is much easier. In other words, if
someone says "Do a Nikkyo to me" and I set their hand/arm up in the
proper position for it but it is nothing more than an isolated
application of a skeletal lock on a resistant subject, it can be very
difficult to do it without resulting pain. But as the result of an
attack and a proper "Aiki" response, it is fairly easy to apply
without any pain at all. Just an example.
I understand the concept, and enjoyed working with you at the seminar. It
is certainly a useful thing to practice. But I think that to be effective
martial artists we also do need to understand pain and learn how to deal
with it. (We should even learn how to deal with injury, but that is not
something I think we should go out of our way to practice. Most people do
unfortunately get injuries, hopefully minor, during their lives, on and off
the mat.) I don't see it as much different from sitting under a freezing
waterfall. In fact, being like yourself in being insulation challenged, I'd
rather have a nikkyo any day. We also need to understand that pain is not a
large part of aikido, and doesn't work in some situations (really focussed,
angry, drunk, drugged or crazy people), but I think it is a valid part of
the repetoire. Like atemi, I guess. Soe styles do it and some don't.
How do you feel about Saotome's concept of marubashi: as uke attacks you
dash his attack off to the side?
>Thanks for letting me use you to ponitificate.... :-)
Any time.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:39:56 -0700
From: susan dalton
Subject: Re: Unwritten contract
--- "Drysdale, Alan E." wrote:
> >>Some techniques are supposed to hurt while being
> applied.
>
> Larry said:
> >In some styles for sure, Alan, but not in all....
> mine, for example. I'm
> not being disputive, I just like to point out that
> there are many
> different takes on this subject, as there are on
> many different
> aspects to Aikido.
>
> You are right of course. We can only talk from our
> own perspective, and for
> most people that only includes one style.
>
As I read this exchange, I feel as though I am sitting
on the sidelines watching a particularly lovely
jyuwaza demonstration. Since I was engaged in a not
so lovely meeting last week, I appreciate the model
you're both giving me to work toward. But hey, in the
meantime, will you both please come apply nikkyo to
these folks? (just kidding of course)
Susan
Susan
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002