Educational Value of Videos
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002
22:14:35 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Educational value of videos
Since our dojo has been around for 15 years and they've been organizing 5-6
seminars a year, there is an abundance of videos, which I volunteered to
take and organize -record them in HQ VHS tapes, edit a few unwanted
crowd scenes and then convert them to DVD for posterity. Among them were
most of the kyu tests as well as all of the dan tests (dan tests usually
follow a visiting shihan's seminar). Viewing them has worked miracles for
my self confidence since I saw our sempais (shodan, nidan and sandan)
during their first kyu attempts. If they sucked *this* bad a mere 5-7 years
ago, there is still hope for the wicked. Advice for all newbies around
here: if your dojo has such a library, request to have a look -it will
erase most doubts that you too can make it <g>. I've also made a mental
note to use these tapes as a teaching aid when I grow up and have my own
class to teach. Something along the lines of "if you think I'm doing this
right now, see how I was doing it when I was where you are". It undermines
the teacher's authority but it is better for the students' morale, don't
you think?
Just a thought...
Gri
PS
Viewing these videos the words "blackmail potential" flashed in my mind.
Just another thought :-P
G.A.Miliaresis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:11:21 -0400
From: Marc Kupper
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
From: Gri A. Miliaresis
> Viewing them has worked miracles for
> my self confidence since I saw our sempais (shodan, nidan and sandan)
> during their first kyu attempts. If they sucked *this* bad ...
Is there any value to the old test videos other than as a confidence builder?
The subject line actually brings up a related question I have been wondering
about. What's the value of commercial videos such as those sold on Amazon [1]
for beginning students of Aikido?
It seems that proficiency at Aikido (or any MA for that matter) is attained
through training your body/mind in the dojo. I'm just starting out (2 months
now) and see that I, and my body, are slowly getting used to Aikido (ukemi,
techniques, and the other practices that go on within a dojo both on and off the
mat itself). We have the occasional visiting sensei/seminar plus the sensei and
sempai rotate through the classes which gives me plenty of perspectives.
Thus I'm wondering who and what the videos are for? I'm aware of the virtual
tough guy but does the average serious practicing aikidoa have these tapes on
his/her shelf? Does the beginning aikidoa need them?
Friday night I asked one of our sempai about this and he says he has used the
videos when he wants to concentrate on a different perspective or aspect for a
technique. E.g., you start out learning the mechanics of a technique and the
instructor at the time may emphasize certain aspects of the technique. Later,
as you have mastered the technique and start to explore variations and or the
reasoning/thinking behind them you pull out the videos. This seems like a
reasonable use for the more advance student but I'm curious on the list-think on
their value for beginners.
Marc
[1] Principles of Aikido (1994) -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000J10V
The Art of Aikido (1991) -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302998980/
Advanced Aikido -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305057419
Aikido Ukemi -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JWWX
Akikido (sic) Ukemi 2: Principles of Giving -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004REMU
Advanced Ukemi: For Aikido and other Martial Arts -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004S4YX
Ukemi - The Art of Falling -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004S4YW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:17:55 -0400
From: Jim McCoy
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
The videos for sale at best make excellent reference material. An
inexperienced person or a beginner can not learn martial arts from video.
Old test tapes are valuable because techniques change over time - sometimes
on purpose and some times because of inconsistency from teacher to teacher.
These tapes could prove to be valuable in restoring lost teaching.
jm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:01:04 -0700
From: Chris Kuszmaul
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
There is a common misconception that video alone is not sufficient to
train up beginners. In fact, video works rather well, provided you have
dedicated students.
When I arrived in the Republic of Georgia in 1994, there had been few, if
any experienced aikido instructors in the country --- ever. I could claim to
have founded the art there, except for one minor detail: They had all been
training using (mostly yoshinkan) videos since the Soviet Union fell a few
years prior to my arrival.
I would like to think my instruction proved valuable on certain fine
points. But the Aikidoka in Tblisi are as good as anywhere else.
CLK
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:21:08 -0700
From: Michael Riehle
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Kupper
> [...snip...]
> The subject line actually brings up a related question I have been
wondering about. What's the value of commercial videos such as those sold
on Amazon [1] for beginning students of Aikido?
>
Mental imagery.
>
> Thus I'm wondering who and what the videos are for? I'm aware of the
virtual tough guy but does the average serious practicing aikidoa have these
tapes on his/her shelf? Does the beginning aikidoa need them?
>
Need is probably too strong a word. To some people they might be useful.
> Friday night I asked one of our sempai about this and he says he has used
the videos when he wants to concentrate on a different perspective or aspect
for a technique. E.g., you start out learning the mechanics of a technique
and the instructor at the time may emphasize certain aspects of the
technique. Later, as you have mastered the technique and start to explore
variations and or the reasoning/thinking behind them you pull out the
videos. This seems like a reasonable use for the more advance student but
I'm curious on the list-think on their value for beginners.
>
Um, yes, exactly.
These things are really good for getting new perspectives. Having said
that, I believe them to be 100% useless to most people who are not already
training in a dojo. The videos can help to give you the right mental
perspective, but that can't teach you the techniques.
I started teaching a class once a week at my dojo. This particular class
has specific goals. In the beginning when it was all new stuff to everyone
(except me, at least in this dojo) it was trivally easy for me to accomplish
those goals. As people mastered the concepts and started applying them to
their Aikido training, I needed to go past some of that stuff. I knew how
*I'd* do it, but I also knew some of that stuff wouldn't work for some of my
students. I got some great ideas from videos which helped immensely when I
tried them in class.
Of course, the coolest was a visiting Sensei from another school who showed
up last week. He's spent many years evolving the stuff I learned to a whole
new plane. I got to spend a few hours with him. Those few hours were
worth - to me - any twelve of those videos.
Michael C. Riehle
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 00:28:18 -0400
From: Jim McCoy
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
Sorry, but this is something I would have to witness.
There are just too many fine points in martial arts that without a trained
eye, you will never see.
You won't see because you wouldn't know to look for it.
How many untrained people buy karate videos and know to watch the feet and
the hips instead of just the hands? Probably none.
In martial arts training everyone makes mistakes. That's why you have a
qualified Sensei with scrutinizing eyes walking around making corrections -
even correcting black belts. There are also always questions - which often
bring up more.
The video sensei can not correct your mistakes or answer questions. I still
say - reference only.
jm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:05:27 -0700
From: Chris Kuszmaul
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
Come to think of it, I have a video of one of the serious students that he
produced during one of the few stretches where there was electricity that
year. I should transfer that thing to DVD and slap it up on a web site.
I showed it to a select group of well qualified people. They all put the
skill level at around nidan.
There are certainly fine points that a video fails to transmit, and I was
a busy puppy when I was in Tblisi, showing certain things that a video is
not good at transmitting. Any yonkyo you get in Tblisi probably came from
me. But what you are overlooking is the power of human creativity and
invention. I learned as much as I taught.
I felt a certain resistance to the idea that video could be so effective,
since that seemed to diminish the significance of instructors who have meant
so much to my training. But this kind of gets back to that rhetorical
question about whether you would take a pill that made your Aikido
'perfect'. But now the question is: Would such a pill's existence alter the
value of an Aikido instructor?
CLK
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:36:26 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
Marc Kupper wrote:
> The subject line actually brings up a related question I have been wondering
about. What's the value of commercial videos such as those sold on Amazon [1]
for beginning students of Aikido?
Hi, Marc. GOOD questions!
FWIW....
I find it valuable to have videotape of a shihan level person within my
style demo-ing what I'll be tested on (as the Yamada videos do if you
are in a USAF-ER dojo)....
I've watched some Saito Sensei and Saotome Sensei videos and come away,
not with specific pointers, just energized and inspired....
the Donovan Waite videos on ukemi, at least #1, is something I use as an
actual instructional videotape...
janet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:39:51 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
Chris Kuszmaul wrote:
>
> There is a common misconception that video alone is not sufficient to
> train up beginners. In fact, video works rather well, provided you have
> dedicated students.
I smiled reading your post, Chris. A few yrs ago I arranged for a set of
Yamada Sensei videotapes to go to a small dojo in Cuba. The followup
email I got thanking me made the cost and effort worth it: they were
training in real isolation up to that time and anticipating an upcoming
visit from Wagner Bull, and the videos made them realize they were just
plain doing some things incorrectly and helped them get it together
before he arrived :-)
janet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:53:38 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
I use videos to show what high level training can achieve. Shihan
demos, embu and randori. It is hard to impart on beginners what is
possible without example - very hard to take your Aikido to a level when
your uke are all beginners.
So inspiration yes - instruction no.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:55:13 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
Marc wrote:
>Is there any value to the old test videos other than as a confidence builder?
Depends. I found out that they can also give a good indication about the
dojo's overall progress and evolution. One thing I can say for sure is that
today's 7th kyu testees are much more advanced than the testees, say, ten
years ago. Seeing this and wondering why, helps making things (eg
teaching) better, IMO. Of course this is mostly sensei's/sempais' concern
but we live in the same dojo so I found it interesting too. And don't
downplay the confidence building factor -we all need it, in some point down
the road (Do) <g>.
>The subject line actually brings up a related question I have been
>wondering about. What's the value of commercial videos such as those sold
>on Amazon [1] for beginning students of Aikido?
That's a nice angle! The first thing that springs to mind is "very little",
but then again motivation isn't something to sneer at.
>It seems that proficiency at Aikido (or any MA for that matter) is
>attained through training your body/mind in the dojo.
Yup. But <kiwee mode on>, mind leads the body <kiwee mode off>. So if there
is something (be it old times in house videos, O-Sensei videos or any top
shihan's videos) that makes the mind move it is a Good Thing (TM). At least
it is for me <g>.
>I'm just starting out (2 months now) and see that I, and my body, are
>slowly getting used to Aikido (ukemi, techniques, and the other practices
>that go on within a dojo both on and off the mat itself). We have the
>occasional visiting sensei/seminar plus the sensei and sempai rotate
>through the classes which gives me plenty of perspectives.
Good! Keep it up!
>Thus I'm wondering who and what the videos are for? I'm aware of the
>virtual tough guy but does the average serious practicing aikidoa have
>these tapes on his/her shelf? Does the beginning aikidoa need them?
I believe anything (books, videos, music, art, whatever) means different
things not only to different persons but to different moments in the same
person's life. So you buy one of these videos as a newbie and you get
inspiration, you view them six months later and you notice some details
that you work on, then view them one year later and notice some more, etc.
Note that when you hit a plateau you might need the inspiration again and
viewing one of these videos can bring back that loving feeling of your
first days on the mat. Whatever works best for you.
What I wanted to say before is that besides practice, building an aikido
(or karate) "environment", has worked miracles for me. Nowadays, my aikido
environment consists of my books, my videos, a certain mailing list <g>,
web sites, hanging out with dojomates, talking about aikido, you name it.
It helps me -I guess it might help others.
>Friday night I asked one of our sempai about this and he says he has used
>the videos when he wants to concentrate on a different perspective or
>aspect for a technique.
That too.
>E.g., you start out learning the mechanics of a technique and the
>instructor at the time may emphasize certain aspects of the
>technique. Later, as you have mastered the technique
Mastered? Did someone say mastered? Noone's mastered until the Great Spirit
of Aiki has decided it! Was it mastered when Tamura split with the Aikikai?
Hell no! (Tamura? -Forget it, he's rolling.) And it ain't mastered now.
'Cause when the going gets harmonious... the harmonious get going. Who's
with me? Tohei? He is a newbie? Saito? Newbie! Yamada? Ahem, sorry. Raving
again. Sorry...
>and start to explore variations and or the reasoning/thinking behind them
>you pull out the videos. This seems like a reasonable use for the more
>advance student but I'm curious on the list-think on their value for beginners.
As I said many times already, I can see virtues in anything aikido related
when I'm in an aikido mood -or for helping me stay into this mood. Of
course nothing beats actual practice but sometimes we need all the
motivation we can get. It's funny you mentioned this btw (list imitating
life etc), cause this week this guy came to the dojo, enrolled and started
classes. Judging from his performance both as nage and uke I made him
roughly in my level (one-one half years of practice) and a couple of first
kyus that I asked made him somewhere there too, although we couldn't figure
out why he missed some very obvious details. So I asked him where he came
from etc, to find out that his background was *only* books, videos and some
(few) workouts with an aikidoka friend who was some 3rd/2nd kyu from
England. The thing is that this guy had to practice for about 5-6 years
with videos/books to get to a level one of our dojo's students get in 1-2.
So I guess the answer is yes, videos can actually help but without real
dojo practice and a sensei/sempai beside you, you might reinvent some
wheels. Not that there's something wrong with that, mind you <g>.
Gri
G.A.Miliaresis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 07:37:43 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
> Chris Kuszmaul wrote:
> >
> > There is a common misconception that video alone is not sufficient to
> > train up beginners. In fact, video works rather well, provided you have
> > dedicated students.
And it's a clear video where you can really see the technique
being done. Some really good instructors are not good video
subjects, while other can demonstrate a technique well.
Given the "concise" manner of the Yoshinkan-style instruction
I've encountered, I imagine their videos would be very good
learning tools.
Recently, our community college aikido class taped our instructor
demonstrating the tests we were to take, made copies for
everyone, and the tapes were very helpful both in refreshing our
memories and working on further learning the techniques. I think
videos can be very heplful to a motivated student--especially
those who have no or limited access to sensei.
> I smiled reading your post, Chris. A few yrs ago I arranged for a set of
> Yamada Sensei videotapes to go to a small dojo in Cuba...the videos
> made them realize they were just plain doing some things incorrectly
> and helped them get it together before he arrived
That's the other thing--if you think you're not doing it
correctly, you can rerun the tape and look again.
if only Life were on videotape! ;-)
Al
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:15:49 -0400
From: Charles Yeomans
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
I know a bunch of people who learned large chunks of Brazilian
jiu-jitsu mostly from video.
As for aikido, I certainly think it possible to make a video from
which absolute beginners could learn some aikido. I do not know if
that video has been made yet, although the set of videos produced at
Yoshinkan hombu dojo might come close. Saito sensei's 8-volume video
set is also very useful for learning. When I first starting
teaching, those tapes usually supplied my lesson plan.
Charles Yeomans
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:46:02 -0700
From: David Monahan-Lesseps
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
>From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
>It's funny you mentioned this btw (list imitating
>life etc), cause this week this guy came to the dojo, enrolled and started
>classes. Judging from his performance both as nage and uke I made him
>roughly in my level (one-one half years of practice) and a couple of first
>kyus that I asked made him somewhere there too, although we couldn't figure
>out why he missed some very obvious details.
I'm curious, what kind of obvious details were missing? What exactly did he
pick up from video/book training, and what was missing due to his lack of
dojo contact? How did he respond to the dojo setting? Is he coming back?
This reminds me of the "raised by wolves" stories of abandoned children
returning to human society.
David "raised by cajuns" M-L
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:02:07 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Re: Educational value of videos for beginners
David wrote:
>I'm curious, what kind of obvious details were missing? What exactly did
>he pick up from video/book training, and what was missing due to his lack
>of dojo contact?
What I found lacking (and obvious) was the soft/flexible side of techniques
-he tends to be quite stiff, at least for tthe kind of aikido I'm used to.
He has missed some angle details which I believe can lead to accidents, eg,
in the direction you "cut" when bringing down uke's hands in shiho nage to
finish the technique. He also can't see the sequence of techniques -that
starting from a certain tai-sabaki you can go to many techniques and
moreover he doesn't seem to understand the importance of tai-sabaki but
seems more concerned to the te-sabaki (I believe someone mentioned that
earlier re: karate videos). Another example: when we did shomen-uchi ikkyo
ura (irimi-tenkan), he didn't twist me with the whole body but first turned
and then tried to pull me using only his hands. Another major thing -again
judging from the way *I* understand aikido, having just hit my one year
mark- was that he doesn't grasp the idea of uke -he acts like there's only
the nage side to the techniques. When we swapped and I was nage, he wasn't
following and when we talked about it afterwards he seemed quite surprised
to the idea of uke trying to respond to nage -it seemed like he thought of
it more like arm wrestling.
Generally speaking I felt somewhat not at ease with him, cause it reminded
me of people who not being accustomed to communicate with others are harsh
when they try to. We played for 15-20 minutes after class the first three
days he came and I had the feeling I was somewhat in danger.
>How did he respond to the dojo setting?
Not bad at all -I believe he liked it although (and that's strange
considering he must have had disciplined himself for managing to do these)
he found "Real Aikido" (as in "dojo aikido" <g>) to be so full of details.
I guess he can blend with the dojo thing, although he'll have to re-learn
some things. But the same could have occurred with someone who came to our
dojo from a Yoshi environment, no?
>Is he coming back?
I think so -he came to all the classes last week and didn't seem to dislike
the situation. One thing I noticed though was a little annoyance when
sempais corrected his postures or mentioned various details. I think I
sensed an attitude of "what's bugging you -I threw my uke alright so I'm
correct". I might be wrong though -we'll see.
>This reminds me of the "raised by wolves" stories of abandoned children
>returning to human society.
<g>. Maybe -time will tell.
>David "raised by cajuns" M-L
Gri "raised by Greeks" :-(
G.A.Miliaresis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:05:23 -0400
From: Scooterman
Subject: Re: video instruction
Sensei Blok is ever so gradually changing some of the techniques...
standardizing is the word bantered about... so those that are similar,
are DONE similar.
The result is that some of the oldster Black Belts on the mat end up
going "I dunno how we do it... this is how we USED to do it". Plus,
there's the usual, "geee you're up for your brown belt, eh? I THINK I
remember how this one goes".
So I got the video... it's old; griany; jerks & skips.... but it IS ever
so reassuring to be able to go "No, this is how it is on the VIDEO"...
if it's been changed, ok. If it hasn't, this is how I'd like to do it on
my test... Please.
Someone chimed in that there's VOLUMES one misses when watching a video.
TRUE.
But I find it helps MOST to watch the video, then hustle ass down to the
Dojo and DO it... while it's still fresh in your mind [and yer pretty
sure how it's done so you can refresh the memory of your uke]. Then come
home & watch it again... now you have fresh eyes & see what you missed
the first time... AND missed on the mat.
I heard of a couple of Dojo's that drag the VCR into the Dojo & they sit
around and critique it... then do it, then watch it some more.
BRAVO for whomever came up with that idea. Kudos for the Sensei in the
video big enough to stand up to such scrutiny [not to mention good
enough]. The only snag I see to that is the one hour limit of most
classes... 4 hours would be the ticket.
But... then someone's gonna argue that you're an Aikido clone... you
haven't made it your own. *I say*, better to be the clone of a good
Sensei, THEN make it your own than to make it your own & have your
Aikido as screwed up as you are. [NO, your OTHER left]. <g>
anyway.... that's my 2 cents.
Scoot
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 18:48:22 +0900
From: Michael Kimeda
Subject: Re: video instruction
>Which is why Parker sensei made a video/cd rom at our dojo which we can use
>to try and keep things standardized. I think you need to start everyone off
It is also why Honbu has a whole wack of videos made of standard Yoshinkan
technique. You have to navigate the wacky (to be kind) Quest Video website
to find them (www.queststation.com),
but there are more than a few. They
list a bunch under "English Section" but those are only the ones that they
have translasted into English. They have more that have Japanese voice over.
If you can find it, they have a DVD compilation of Yoshinkan techniques that
contains about 6 or 7 videos worth of material.
They also have a whole bunch o' NINJA videos. hehehe.
Spike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:44:58 -0700
From: susan dalton
Subject: Re: video instruction
--- Cindy wrote:
> While I certainly wouldn't argue that we should
> throw everything out,
> seems to me the way Aikido is set up is that it will
> always alter a
> bit. It's dynamic, it adapts itself to the current
> situation, and
> certainly the way o'sensei did it in the 30's was
> different from the
> 40's from the 50's from the 60's. I guess the
> question is where do
> new people start -- at reinventing the wheel, or at
> different places
> because of what's been developed? Probably no one
> answer to that,
> either.
One of Toyota Shihan's senior students told me that
Toyota Shihan was constantly changing kihon waza so
that people would keep beginner's mind.
Susan
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002