Exercises Without Attack
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002
14:08:22 +0200
From: Eva Fenrich
Subject: Exercises without attack
Hi all!
Do you do this in your dojo:
exercises like shihonage, iriminage or ikkyo with uke just standing
there and offering their hand/wrist and nage does the technique to them
rather than reacting to an attack...
Do you think that style of practise is a good exercise?
I've seen this type of practise in a few dojos .... and didn't have
the impression it has anything to do with aikido but maybe I'm
mistaken ...
Eva "the dojo-hopping newbie asks too many questions"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 08:32:42 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
From: "Eva Fenrich"
> Hi all!
> Do you do this in your dojo:
> exercises like shihonage, iriminage or ikkyo with uke just standing
> there and offering their hand/wrist and nage does the technique to
them
> rather than reacting to an attack...
>
> Do you think that style of practise is a good exercise?
We don't do anything like that here. It might have value at the very
basic level where both uke and nage are still learning the technique,
though.
Personally, I would hope that a dojo that did this would very quickly
move on to a more realistic version of the same technique. Maybe walk
through a few times so everyone knows what they're trying to do, then
step up to a low intensity attack from uke.
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:40:46 -0400
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
Eva Fenrich wrote:
>Hi all!
>Do you do this in your dojo:
>exercises like shihonage, iriminage or ikkyo with uke just standing
>there and offering their hand/wrist and nage does the technique to them
>rather than reacting to an attack...
>
>Do you think that style of practise is a good exercise?
>
depends on what you mean.
No. if you mean uke just stands there with their hand extended and nage
just grabs them and does some technique.
Yes. if it's uke stands there and extends their hand and holds nage's wrist
as nage also is standing in one place. Then nage moves. That can be
anything from uke cooperatively moving with nage to help as beginners get a
sense of how to do the basics of an art to holding strongly to the hardest
of holding softly with ki.
Craig
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:16:52 -0700
From: m kelly
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
as a newbie to this sort of technique, i find this
sort of practice invaluable- no , make that
INVALUABLE. Because it breaks things down for me so i
have a clue, allowing me to be accurate. Speed comes
later, when i practice it over and over and over ad
nauseum.
Martin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:43:33 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
Kihon Junanaon in the Shodokan system has uke and tori facing each
other with right (or left) arms outstretched, hands barely touching each
other in tegatana. Tori then executes a technique. Only in the last
technique is there any movement required of uke (beyond what's necessary
to take ukemi safely).
The kihon is practiced by everyone - raw beginners to 30 year
practioners - it allows the internalization of the kata without
distractions.
Of course tanto junanahon are done against full speed tanto thrusts,
kicks, punches, various grabs, etc. and they are also the techniques
used in full resistance randori.
Iwama style and elsewhere has kihon performed from static grabs. You
could also say that there is no attack since you basically give tori
your arm. As with Shodokan - from Kihon your Aikido grows.
Anyway, I wonder what you mean by the statement below says someone who
has seen way too much hurried sloppiness in his visits.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 11:39:45 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
I've mentioned before. I read somewhere that that WAS the preferred method of
training at beginner (whatever that goes up to) levels. The idea, as I
understand it, is that O'sensei didn't want people focusing too much on the
weapon....someone makes a fist and the other person get's all nervous and
conentrates too much on the fist because we all recognize it as a weapon.
I understood that we are supposed to, especially with our fist contact learning
aikido, deal and react to the whole more than any one weapon. That a grab,
though it CAN be an attack, is less threatening but lets us use the same
relationships and distances, etc. as a more "realistic" attack.
I heard this, and it made sense to me so I believed it. It doesn't really even
matter if it is based in fact, as I believe it helped me. I am pretty sure that
when I receive tsugi, or shomen-uchi or other attacks that I AM reacting to the
whole uke...
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 05:44:26 -0400
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
On Wed, 8 May 2002 18:19:15 +0200, Eva Fenrich wrote:
>On Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:40:46AM -0400, Craig wrote:
>> No. if you mean uke just stands there with their hand extended and nage
>> just grabs them and does some technique.
>that's what I meant...
>uke just stands there .... and waits for nage to grab them ....
>even for slow beginners practise this doesn't make sense for me as
>it has a strong emphasis on doing something to uke...
the heavily kata based approaches of yoshinkan and tomiki styles don't as
far as I know have things initiated by nage grabbing uke.
even what Peter is saying they do in shodokan doesn't sound like going that
far.
my problem with it is that it throws away any practice the initial moment of
an attack in any form. If you are not learning about that initial moment
from day one even in a very basic manner, then what you are doing is crap.
No matter how beautiful a shihonage movement you can do, it's meaningless
nonsense if you don't understand, don't practice the initial moment. I say
that because if someone grabs you for real in that case, you will never see
the shihonage or other finishing movement.
Craig
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 19:03:14 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
I think it is. Uke basically presents himself to be used and really I
don't see that much difference between that and a stylized wrist grab.
I must add that we have many other methods of instilling appropriate
response to attack practiced from day one. My point is that kihon
really is about teaching the mechanics of the movement - that is its focus.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 06:32:49 -0400
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
On Thu, 9 May 2002 19:03:14 +0900, Peter Rehse wrote:
>I think it is. Uke basically presents himself to be used and really I
>don't see that much difference between that and a stylized wrist grab.
> I must add that we have many other methods of instilling appropriate
>response to attack practiced from day one. My point is that kihon
>really is about teaching the mechanics of the movement - that is its focus.
>
really ?
well, I think there is a big difference.
what other methods ?
Craig
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 09:21:38 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
Eva said:
>uke just stands there .... and waits for nage to grab them ....
even for slow beginners practise this doesn't make sense for me as
it has a strong emphasis on doing something to uke...
We do do things to uke. Even extremely soft styles like Larry's make uke do
things he has no intention of doing. He wants to hit you? The only way not
to make him do something he doesn't want to do is to let him hit you.
Now we can use a lot of our energy to do technique, or very little. There
is a goal of using as little as possible, it is considered better aikido.
But aikido is a martial art, and it is usually the bigger stronger people
who say things like "don't use muscles". IMO, aikido is about using our
strength efficiently and economically. But it is also about taking care of
the problem. If a smile will do it, that is easily the best, most
efficient, and economic approach, using a few ounces of muscle instead of my
whole 140 lbs, of which maybe 30 - 40% is muscle.
One problem I see even in fairly high ranked students is that they are too
eager to wrestle. As uke, they want to stop nage. As nage, they want to
feel they have *made* uke take the ukemi. It is worthwhile for almost
everybody to just go through the motions of the technique, working on the
position and mechanical details, with no resistance from uke whatsoever,
with uke just going where they are put. Then at least the two of them get
to do the technique correctly, and repetition builds up good "muscle memory"
or whatever you call it. Good practice makes good aikido. When there is
resistance, there are compromises. The technique changes. Bad practice
makes bad aikido.
And guess what. When you really do the technique correctly, uke puts up no
more resistance than this. You get his balance, you have the timing
correct, and the technique feels so easy that you wonder if uke was tanking
for you. And when you can do that with a difficult uke, then you have the
technique.
Of course, as von Clauswitz said, no plan survives the encounter with the
enemy (or something like that). And sometimes the enemy is a lot bigger
than you are. If we are to use aikido in the real world (which some of my
students do in their jobs) then it has to work, even when you don't get it
quite right. So you need to study also how to do it in imperfect
conditions. But that should be a lot less of your time than studying how to
do it correctly.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:01:01 -0700
From: Chuck Clark
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
At 10:43 PM 5/8/2002 -0700, Peter wrote:
>Kihon Junanaon in the Shodokan system has uke and tori facing each
>other with right (or left) arms outstretched, hands barely touching each
>other in tegatana. Tori then executes a technique. Only in the last
>technique is there any movement required of uke (beyond what's necessary
>to take ukemi safely).
Peter,
I must admit I can't see the reasoning behind this. It's like learning to
play the guitar without any strings. Playing the scales and simple chords
and progressions need strings. Learning the kihon needs learning how to
take uke's balance with the first touch, learning to keep the connection in
a dynamic way, proper ma-ai, etc. This should be done very slowly of course
at beginning stages. Uke must have intent and commitment to attack for real
even when its slow. One step outside of toi ma-ai is fine.
Regards,
C. Clark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 11:04:44 +0900
From: Peter Rehse <rehse@SPRING8.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
Chuck and Craig
As I said in an earlier post of the thread this is kihon at the most
basic level. Repeating myself but Kihon Junanhon done properly has both
uke and tori moving towards each other with the technique beginning at
point of contact. At its most basic level (beginner) the movement is
not necessary as it is the mechanics of the movement which is the most
important with respect to kata. As the student progresses other
elements take on added importance. There are times when more senior
students also start from a standing position. It might be the amount of
room available or maybe they want to work on the mechanics of the
movement. My whole point is that it is not necessary to have uke
attacking to work on your Aikido.
Again, we have tanto junanahon where the techniques are perfomed against
full speed tanto thrust, we have variations against a number of attacks
and grabs, which beginners also see and practice from day one, and of
course these are the techniques used in all levels of both toshu and
tanto randori. In other words plenty of opprotunity to work on dealing
with attacks.
Craig - I really don't feel like listing all the various exercises we
do. However, in every practice, done by everybody, including beginners,
we practice taisabki and balance breaking exercises (gonosen kushushi)
against attacks by uke. These exercises are taught on day one and
perfected over time. The dogma is that it is the exercises which
improve your Aikido and that all the secrets are taught in your first
lesson.
I must say I am becoming increasingly confused by the use of the words
intent and commitment in context of uke's attack especially where in the
same sentence one uses words like slow. For me, an attack with intent
and commitment may be defined but it is done full speed with contact the
goal. Sorry but grabbing a presented wrist, no matter how firmly, is not
- well I suppose it beats some of the limpp half hearted attempts I have
been exposed to (we have people like that in Shodokan too).
Chuck Clark wrote:
> At 10:43 PM 5/8/2002 -0700, Peter wrote:
>
>> Kihon Junanaon in the Shodokan system has uke and tori facing each
>> other with right (or left) arms outstretched, hands barely touching each
>> other in tegatana. Tori then executes a technique. Only in the last
>> technique is there any movement required of uke (beyond what's necessary
>> to take ukemi safely).
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I must admit I can't see the reasoning behind this. It's like learning to
> play the guitar without any strings. Playing the scales and simple chords
> and progressions need strings. Learning the kihon needs learning how to
> take uke's balance with the first touch, learning to keep the
> connection in
> a dynamic way, proper ma-ai, etc. This should be done very slowly of
> course
> at beginning stages. Uke must have intent and commitment to attack for
> real
> even when its slow. One step outside of toi ma-ai is fine.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> C. Clark
--
Dr. Peter H. Rehse
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 20:40:44 -0700
From: Paul Tanenbaum
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
> From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
> Eva said:
> >uke just stands there .... and waits for nage to grab them
> >.... even for slow beginners practise this doesn't make
> >sense for me as it has a strong emphasis on doing
> >something to uke...
>
> ... It is worthwhile for almost everybody to just go
> through the motions of the technique, working on the
> position and mechanical details, with no resistance from
> uke whatsoever, with uke just going where they are put.
> Then at least the two of them get to do the technique
> correctly, and repetition builds up good "muscle memory"
> or whatever you call it. Good practice makes good aikido.
Well said. (because I agree) (ever notice no one says "Well
said" in reponse to something they disagree with?)
Muscle memory is key for every sport.
To repeat what I've written before on this list:
FORM BEFORE SPEED
FORM BEFORE SPEED
FORM BEFORE SPEED
> When there is resistance, there are compromises.
Yes.
And this is part of good ukemi, is it not? The most advanced
stage, not merely being able to survive as uke, but being
sensitive to your partner, sensing exactly how much
resistance he can handle.
It's one of the challenges of learning aikido. I think for
many people who quit, it's because they never appreciate this
aspect of the art, they get bored just falling down.
> ...
> Of course, as von Clauswitz said, no plan survives the
> encounter with the enemy (or something like that).
"Everybody has a plan. Then they get hit, and the plan
changes." -- Mike Tyson
---
Paul T.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:42:52 -0700
From: Chuck Clark
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
At 07:04 PM 5/9/2002 -0700, Peter wrote:
>I must say I am becoming increasingly confused by the use of the words
>intent and commitment in context of uke's attack especially where in the
>same sentence one uses words like slow. For me, an attack with intent
>and commitment may be defined but it is done full speed with contact the
>goal. Sorry but grabbing a presented wrist, no matter how firmly, is not
>- well I suppose it beats some of the limp half hearted attempts I have
>been exposed to (we have people like that in Shodokan too).
Well, I guess you would just have to feel a slow, but committed attack with
intent to really disturb your balance to really understand if the words
don't get enough of the meaning across. Speed should be relative to the
level of the students. When I attack a wrist, it is a "soft" connection but
it can drop you onto your front or back, or it can just give you enough
energy that it takes your balance and gives you something to work with if
your timing, etc. is right. The same sort of attack can be made with shotei
or just about any other type of attack if the intent and commitment are there.
As far as hard grips go...personally I never grip hard (in judo or aikido).
If someone grips me hard, I know exactly where their "root" (as the Chinese
expression goes) is and can take their balance instantly.
Hope we can lay hands on each other someday. Words aren't enough.
Best regards,
C. Clark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:44:14 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
Hi Paul
I also strongly agree with Alan's post (a me too) and hence with yours
(another me too).
I was a little bit miffed with the last couple of posts. One would get
the impression that every time two people are paired off - uke is
attacking fast and furious. The thread title is exercises without
attack" and I have not been in any dojo, any style, where these did not
occur. I still wonder about the definition of attack.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:58:26 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
> At 07:04 PM 5/9/2002 -0700, Peter wrote:For me, an attack with intent
> >and commitment may be defined but it is done full speed with contact the
> >goal.
Chuck Clark wrote:
> Well, I guess you would just have to feel a slow, but committed attack with
> intent to really disturb your balance to really understand if the words
> don't get enough of the meaning across. Speed should be relative to the
> level of the students. When I attack a wrist, it is a "soft" connection but
> it can drop you onto your front or back, or it can just give you enough
> energy that it takes your balance and gives you something to work with if
> your timing, etc. is right. The same sort of attack can be made with shotei
> or just about any other type of attack if the intent and commitment are there.
Well. Compared to you two, I feel emminently unqualified to put my 2
cents in...but here goes anyhow!
When "practicing semi-disabled", I specifically focussed on working at
mmmm not half speed but maybe 3/4 speed and agreed with partners to do
so, but with "full intent." To me, this meant that if I attacked
shomenuchi, I would do so in slow motion, but with full range of motion
and with sincerity about where I was going, and if my partner did not
get off the line (albeit in slow motion), I was indeed gonna hit the top
of his head. It never occurred to me that this was not a possible way to
train...
janet
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:12:40 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
>Well. Compared to you two, I feel eminently unqualified to put my 2
>cents in...but here goes anyhow!
>
Chuck maybe but Janet you've been doing our little thing longer than I have.
I must say that in our practice we do like all dojos the various wrist
grabs along with shomenuchi and yokomenuchi. As Chuck describes the
speed of attack depends on the level of the partner and of course I said
firm not hard when describing the grip.
What got me off on a tangent was the statement that unless uke is
attacking what you are doing has no relevance to Aikido. I had two main
problems with that, the first being that I think there is a place for
that sort of training and secondly what many people are calling an
attack (again we do the same sort of thing) is far closer to no attack
at all then it is a "real committed attack".
Of course it is a valid training method to go 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 speed. I
am not advocating an all or nothing approach. I am defending a form
based training method where uke does not always attack - a method which
by the way has produced some seriously gifted Aikido-ists. Wish I were
one of them.
>
>When "practicing semi-disabled", I specifically focussed on working at
>mmmm not half speed but maybe 3/4 speed and agreed with partners to do
>so, but with "full intent." To me, this meant that if I attacked
>shomenuchi, I would do so in slow motion, but with full range of motion
>and with sincerity about where I was going, and if my partner did not
>get off the line (albeit in slow motion), I was indeed gonna hit the top
>of his head. It never occurred to me that this was not a possible way to
>train...
>janet
--
Dr. Peter H. Rehse
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 11:26:42 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
From: "Paul Tanenbaum"
> Muscle memory is key for every sport.
>
> To repeat what I've written before on this list:
> FORM BEFORE SPEED
> FORM BEFORE SPEED
> FORM BEFORE SPEED
>
> Paul T.
As I have mentioned in the past too...this also holds true for guitar. I learned
early on that "to play fast you have to practice SLOOOOOWWWW and correct". Of
course...you mix it with trying to play fast to see how you are doing AND to get
used to the speed. So you kind of do both.
And it is really the same thing I think. I mean, you can just jump in and try to
play fast but at least three things happen...1) sounds sloppy and terrible 2)
mind can't keep up and 3) I think it takes longer to learn the same riff to any
degree of competence.
The very first time I tried to play somewhat fast (it was over 20 years ago and
I still remember it well) and succeeded I felt the whole time like I was just
hangin' on by my teeth. I felt like my hands were way ahead of my mind and
though it is hard to explain I sort of "pulled back" my control or my minds
control in order to not mess it up. I didn't really, but that was the feeling,
like I stopped trying to control the fretting of the notes with my hands...I
also started thinking in phrases instead of notes. Like a whole new vocabulary
opened up of sentences. I would think "dow-dow-de-dow-da-da-da" (not important
what) and it would come out of my fingers but I wouldn't dwell on that, but
instead think of the next thing..
I have a very few times while jamming transcended my control...jeez, those times
were amazing but I can count the number of times it happened on one hand. What I
mean is, (and this is without any "helping" substances) I would close my eyes
and BE in the music so much that I wasn't thinking of what I "wanted" or decide
to play, but instead it was like instantanous that I would be a listener instead
of a player and some really sweet guitar came out of me. I was as much a
listener as anyone in the audience. It was like being in a trance and really
incredible.
Anyway, I base some assumptions on my experience with guitar playing, because it
is the single most consistent thing in my life since I was 15. I have strived
and practiced and given much thought etc, to this. I imagine much like Jun, for
one example, seems to be with aikido.
I am no John McLaughlin, or Joe Satriani...I am not a master on guitar, but I am
definitely way past a beginner level. I think when you go deeply into one thing,
it opens up perceptions and methods and ideas for other things. I really believe
that if one trains slowly, mixing it up, and trying fast also but
critically...with the idea that "this is only to see how close I can come...I
can't do it 100% yet fast" then it will come. And eventually it does become ART
in the sense that a person stops breaking things down but starts putting things
together.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:56:51 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Exercises without attack
--- "Drysdale, Alan E."
> Actually, I often learn more from people who
> disagree with me, but it is a
> lot nicer to have everybody agreeing with me.
susan said
>I wouldn't know. It's never happened to me. :) But I
imagine it would be scary.
Well, it only happens when not too many people express an opinion, and not
that often then either.
One way to get most people agreeing with me is to be on my own, and even
then it doesn't always happen.
Alan
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002