Direction of the hips
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:10:25 +0100
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Direction of the hips
Another question which has been bugging me for a while:
Some folks do their basic techniques with the hips facing square to the front,
and others with the
hips turned to the side (both with one foot forward, one foot back). What are
the advantages of
each method and which is easier for teaching beginners to do basic technique
from?
Ruth
(The bottomless pit of questions!)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 08:57:35 -0400
From: Pauliina Lievonen
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
Ruth wrote about hips square versus turned:
>What are the advantages of each method and which is easier for teaching
>beginners to do basic technique from?
I hope you get an answer from more experienced folks as well. :)
I changed from a "hips square" to a "hips slightly turned" dojo, and the
main difference I've observed in technique is in how much (actually it's
less where I'm now) I have to irimi to take uke's balance. For example,
ikkyo omote at my old dojo started with a big diagonally entering step which
would take uke out of balance to their forward weak point. At my current
dojo ikkyo omote starts with a step to the side without moving forward at
all, but the result is the same, because uke is positioned differently in
the beginning.
Some people fing the sideways movement very hard, and some people find
entering deeply difficult. I can't say that beginners at one of these dojo
seemed to learn any faster than at the other. I might not be experienced
enough to see it though.
Aside from how it affects form, I prefer turning my hips slightly, myself,
it feels like a more natural way of standing, but that might just be me.
kvaak
Pauliina
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 09:46:15 -0700
From: Patric Senson
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
Hi,
Cool, an aikido question...and not many have replied yet :)
--- Ruth Mc William wrote:
> Another question which has been bugging me for a while:
>
> Some folks do their basic techniques with the hips facing square to the
> front, and others with the
> hips turned to the side <snip>
From my (limited I'll admit) perspective, this is a lot like the how to
offer the hand thread that came up a few weeks back. If I want someone to
punch (tsuki) me in the stomach/chest area, then present that to them
(hips square on). If I present my hips turned to the side, how are they
going to punch me, I haven't offered them a target.
But if I want them to reach for me hand, or strike my shoulder (yokomen)
then I'll present myself with my hips facing sideways...that's not the
part I'm leaving as a choice for the attack.
Like someone said in the previous thread, this is one of those things that
seems to get left out in a lot of training...not by the instructor
necessarily, but by the people practicing. Last night we were working on
jo kata, initially on blocking strikes. Everyone got the idea of providing
an initial opening for the first strike, but then, after deflecting, the
people I worked with were providing a great cover (which is a good thing),
but then not giving me another opening to continue the attack. This meant
either a) stopping and explaining there was no opening for me to strike at
b) physically moving the tip of their jo out of the way so I could tsuki
the chest or c) performing some incredibly convoluted (and dangerous for
me) movement to find a way to the chest.
YMMV
Pat (working hard on openings at the moment)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 20:21:23 -0700
From: David Monahan-Lesseps
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
Ruth wrote:
>Some folks do their basic techniques with the hips facing square to the
>front, and others with the
>hips turned to the side (both with one foot forward, one foot back). What
>are the advantages of
>each method and which is easier for teaching beginners to do basic
>technique from?
My instructor has addressed this issue by saying, turning the hips may make
some strategic advantage, because it gives your opponent a smaller striking
area (or some such argument); however, he much prefers to face the attacker
with hips squared. He feels that it gives a psychological advantage, and it
provides more of an understanding of the "entering under the sword" feeling.
I don't pretend to understand this at my level of training.
David "let's hope we never run out of questions" M-L
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:20:38 +0100
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Direction of the hips
Another question which has been bugging me for a while:
Some folks do their basic techniques with the hips facing square to
the
front, and others with the hips turned to the side (both with one foot
forward, one foot back). What are the advantages of each method
and which
is easier for teaching beginners to do basic technique from?
Ruth
(The bottomless pit of questions!)
Hmm good question. Lets call this Kamae Well square hips, lets call
this Kamae, means both hands are forward to engage your partner.
One hip back lets call this Hanmi means you provide a smaller target.
In both I suspect that the hips square at the moment that you
engage your partner. And I suspect that manoeuvering in Hanmi is
slightly easier Than In Kamae.
Simon
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:41:50 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
Hi Simon;
In my opinion moving from shizentai (kamae) is much easier. Assuming 8
directions of movement hamae puts you at a distinct disadvantage.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 11:11:42 +0100
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Attacking openings (was Re: Direction of the hips)
Patric Senson wrote:
>From my (limited I'll admit) perspective, this is a lot like the how to
>offer the hand thread that came up a few weeks back. If I want someone to
>punch (tsuki) me in the stomach/chest area, then present that to them
>(hips square on). If I present my hips turned to the side, how are they
>going to punch me, I haven't offered them a target.
>But if I want them to reach for me hand, or strike my shoulder (yokomen)
>then I'll present myself with my hips facing sideways...that's not the
>part I'm leaving as a choice for the attack.
This makes a lot of sense. I'd agree that this would be a good approach in a
dojo where
everyone was at a stage where they were able to listen to this rather than
worrying about which
left foot they have forward! I've often had beginners disregard my saying "I
can't attack you if you
don't present a target" as they're more interested in which hand they should
move first!
>Last night we were working on
>jo kata, initially on blocking strikes. Everyone got the idea of providing
>an initial opening for the first strike, but then, after deflecting, the
>people I worked with were providing a great cover (which is a good thing),
>but then not giving me another opening to continue the attack.
I've had this many, many times. Usually I just grin and bear it, hoping that
Sensei will notice the
awkward positions I'm having to put myself in to attack, and come over and
correct my partner. If
they're a 4th kyu or higher I'll tell 'em myself, but if it doesn't go in I
revert to grinning and bearing
it! My pet hate is people who tsuki with the jo so low that I practically have
to drop to my knees
to deflect it (first move of the 31 jo kata pairs practice). Pity we're not
allowed to change it to a
different type of block when the attack is so way off...
Ruth (who does see the value in attacking properly)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:52:38 +0900
From: Christopher Li
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
>Hi Simon;
>
>In my opinion moving from shizentai (kamae) is much easier. Assuming 8
>directions of movement hamae puts you at a distinct disadvantage.
So speaks the Judo-type guy :-). People who work at closer distances
tend towards shizentai (Judo), longer distances (weapons, Karate) tend
towards a hanmi type stance, generally speaking. Part of that is that a
greater distance means that the disadvantages of a slight delay in
movement in some directions becomes outweighed by the other advantages of
the posture.
Personally I prefer either shizentai or a 90 degree hanmi depending upon
the situation and the distancing. The real questions in hanmi are the
angle of the feet and hips, and the alignment of the body (and how the
body aligns with the hands), IMO.
Best,
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:53:14 -0400
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:41:50 +0900, Peter Rehse wrote:
>Hi Simon;
>
>In my opinion moving from shizentai (kamae) is much easier. Assuming 8
>directions of movement hamae puts you at a distinct disadvantage.
>
>Simon Watkins wrote:
>
>>
>>In both I suspect that the hips square at the moment that you
>>engage your partner. And I suspect that manoeuvering in Hanmi is
>>slightly easier Than In Kamae.
If anything I equate shizentai more with hanmi than kamae Kamae tends to a
wide stance where the hip being forward feels less natural. Strange is
this just me and my body?
Simon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 07:44:53 +0900
From: Christopher Li
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
>If anything I equate shizentai more with hanmi than kamae Kamae tends to a
>wide stance where the hip being forward feels less natural. Strange is
>this just me and my body?
I suppose it depends who you talk to, but "kamae" is really just a
generic word meaning "stance" or "posture", whereas "shizentai" and
"hanmi" are particular types of kamae...]
Best,
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:05:58 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
Hi Chris;
Chris of course is right - I answered a particular post and their
particular usage but the distinction is between hanmi and shizentai.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:55:27 EDT
From: "(Alex Rusinko)"
Subject: Re: Direction of the hips
Well, after going through my copy of Budo (I only saw one picture of O
Sensei standing with his hips turned and he was doing Irimi Ikkyo so it might
not really been the first one in the series.) and reviewing what everyone has
said I say if it ain't natural it ain't right. I never saw anyone walking
with their hips turned. Tohei Shihan once said "As you get older into aikido
the hanmi gets smaller and smaller until your hanmi becomes a natural stance
with the feet just like you stand."
As far as a target. In the Law Enforcement world I would rather have my
vest full facing the attacker than turned with the arm hole visible. The
shock plate can be one great shock to a person who hits it with a fist.
That's just my opinion.
Alex
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Last updated on 13 Sep 2002