Silent Practice
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 01:34:15 -0700
From: Chris Kuszmaul
Subject: Re: silent practice
>I'm curious to read other listka thoughts/experiences on the matter. NOT
>the issue of social chatter/distraction, which we've done to death in
>the past, but what the actual experience is/was like and the lessons
>learned.
There is something peculiar about trying to describe in words the
distinctive value of training in silence, but I will try.
When I walk into a library, or a religous building, there is a natural
hush. For me, this lends a seriousness to the place, and the activity, that
requires (or allows) me to attempt to really be very good at what I am
doing. In a dojo with silent practice, I get the same feeling.
CLK
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:48:59 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: silent practice
So what is this - only sensei speaking.
Chris Kuszmaul wrote:
>> I'm curious to read other listka thoughts/experiences on the matter. NOT
>> the issue of social chatter/distraction, which we've done to death in
>> the past, but what the actual experience is/was like and the lessons
>> learned.
>
>
> There is something peculiar about trying to describe in words the
> distinctive value of training in silence, but I will try.
>
> When I walk into a library, or a religous building, there is a natural
> hush. For me, this lends a seriousness to the place, and the activity,
> that
> requires (or allows) me to attempt to really be very good at what I am
> doing. In a dojo with silent practice, I get the same feeling.
>
> CLK
Dr. Peter H. Rehse Research Scientist
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:11:45 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: silent practice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Monica Bielke"
> I know I must've started out asking him questions verbally, but I have
> this vivid memory of long stretches towards the end of the time where we
> didn't speak at all, just tried the technique, or parts of it, over and
> over again. Most of our communicating was done by feel: how the
> technique felt as I did it, how uke reacted, what he emphasized when he
> threw me, glances and simple gestures that said "better - try again." ,
> "fix the hand position", "take up the slack", "good throw, try again",
> "do it this way - try again", etc, etc. Even the pace and timing of
> each throw was signalled in the way uke attacked, or the way nage
> reacted to the attack.
>
> When Eastman Sensei finally came by to tell Andy to work with someone
> else it had been 45 minutes! I felt as if I was waking up from a long
> sleep, surfacing in deep water. Very strange, but what an enjoyable 45
> minutes it had been! And when Sensei asked me to show him what I'd
> learned, I remembered a lot of the details very well.
> Monica
That was a nice story Monica. I almost felt like I remember similar (not JUST
aikido related either) experiences and they are incredibly efficient sometimes.
They are certainly intense and usually I think they tend to produce great
results.
I think when it all comes down to it, That kind of pactice seperates the wheat
from the chaff. Gets a person to concentrate in a way that is impossible when
the mouth is engaged or the brain is thinking in sentences. As you mentioned,
when you (as well as your partner) are thinking in incomplete sentences seems to
be a key that you are in the mode.
The thing is it only happens when either the core group sort of makes it
uncomfortable to be so chatty, or you have people that are ONLY there to learn
aikido and want to concentrate on that and have the discipline.
I think if you had a "kubla kai" (or whatever that extreme "hai sensei! school
was called in the "Karate Kid") type environment, it would also distract from
learning but in a different way.
I think most of us have experienced, and at least briefly, been, the person that
would rather stand there and talk about minutae, or correct things verbally, or
basically do ANYTHING except simply do it again and work out the kinks. (kinf of
like what we do here :-)) People do that kind of thing for different reasons I
think. They do it because they are insecure and a little afraid of actually
doing it and failing or because have the type of personality that they have to
know-it-all, or they are actually more there in the dojo for campanionship than
to actually learn aikido, or possibly a myriad of other reasons.
But the main thing is, all those things are distractions. Often you can see, if
you look, what the reason is. I think I remember when I was doing it, that it
helped when I had a partner that simply ignored it :-). I think I got the point.
If I started "discussing" when I should have been doing it, as nage they would
simply ignore it and thrust out their wrist for me to grab, or as uke they would
simply attack.
I got the idea after a while. It helped also that as a beginner, I read here on
this list about the concept and was therefore aware that in dojos it was frowned
upon top talk unnecessarily.
Even the really dedicated can suddenly get chatty. Maybe because they are there
all the time. It certainly is not just them though. You can see it some
nights...that people are more talking and joking around than training. But
usually it only lasts a little while. Mostly my and other dojos I've seen keep
that down to a minimum. There are always a few folks though that want to talk
more than train.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:21:29 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: silent practice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flying Monkey"
> I
> personally work better when I'm given some verbal instruction
> and mostly nonverbal explanation. But sometimes I get
> frustrated and the easiest way to calm down for a second is to
> stand still while someone verbally explains it to me.
>
> I guess it just seems to me that there are many different
> responses to each situation and it seems only right that there
> isn't one blanket response that fits every single one of them.
>
> Angie
I meant to convey in my previous post that this also is true. I think though
that we all know, when we see it, when people are stalling or avoiding practice
and using conversation for that, or when they simply need clarification.
Still, for myself, I think it is WAY less often than I first thought. I mean,
you certainly could think of a sensei that couldn't speak english STILL being
able to convey the point. Some of the best learning I have had has been when
sensei "overacted" someone not committing in attack by "Frankenstein'ing" all
over the mat to show me how I was dragging as uke.
If I think of some of the things I felt a need to talk about...maybe nikkyo and
yonkjo. How they work, how to apply them...mainly "what I am doing wrong and why
doesn't it work?" kind of stuff. It really can be explained without words..with
sensei showing and then making ajustments to me.
Doesn't really matter...I still don't do it right :-)
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 19:20:38 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: silent practice
I prefer that sort of training myself, when sempai or kohei gets too
chatty times a wasting. The oft talked about zone can't be reached with
background clutter.
Still I had the vision of a silence enforced practice - walking into a
church - not sure if I see any real benefit/enjoyment out of that.
James R. Acker wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Monica Bielke"
>>I know I must've started out asking him questions verbally, but I have
>>this vivid memory of long stretches towards the end of the time where we
>>didn't speak at all, just tried the technique, or parts of it, over and
>>over again. Most of our communicating was done by feel: how the
>>technique felt as I did it, how uke reacted, what he emphasized when he
>>threw me, glances and simple gestures that said "better - try again." ,
>>"fix the hand position", "take up the slack", "good throw, try again",
>>"do it this way - try again", etc, etc. Even the pace and timing of
>>each throw was signalled in the way uke attacked, or the way nage
>>reacted to the attack.
>>
>>When Eastman Sensei finally came by to tell Andy to work with someone
>>else it had been 45 minutes! I felt as if I was waking up from a long
>>sleep, surfacing in deep water. Very strange, but what an enjoyable 45
>>minutes it had been! And when Sensei asked me to show him what I'd
>>learned, I remembered a lot of the details very well.
>>Monica
>>
>
>That was a nice story Monica. I almost felt like I remember similar (not JUST
aikido related either) experiences and they are incredibly efficient sometimes.
They are certainly intense and usually I think they tend to produce great
results.
>
>I think when it all comes down to it, That kind of pactice seperates the wheat
from the chaff. Gets a person to concentrate in a way that is impossible when
the mouth is engaged or the brain is thinking in sentences. As you mentioned,
when you (as well as your partner) are thinking in incomplete sentences seems to
be a key that you are in the mode.
>
>The thing is it only happens when either the core group sort of makes it
uncomfortable to be so chatty, or you have people that are ONLY there to learn
aikido and want to concentrate on that and have the discipline.
>
>I think if you had a "kubla kai" (or whatever that extreme "hai sensei! school
was called in the "Karate Kid") type environment, it would also distract from
learning but in a different way.
>
>I think most of us have experienced, and at least briefly, been, the person
that would rather stand there and talk about minutae, or correct things
verbally, or basically do ANYTHING except simply do it again and work out the
kinks. (kinf of like what we do here :-)) People do that kind of thing for
different reasons I think. They do it because they are insecure and a little
afraid of actually doing it and failing or because have the type of personality
that they have to know-it-all, or they are actually more there in the dojo for
campanionship than to actually learn aikido, or possibly a myriad of other
reasons.
>
>But the main thing is, all those things are distractions. Often you can see, if
you look, what the reason is. I think I remember when I was doing it, that it
helped when I had a partner that simply ignored it :-). I think I got the point.
If I started "discussing" when I should have been doing it, as nage they would
simply ignore it and thrust out their wrist for me to grab, or as uke they would
simply attack.
>
>I got the idea after a while. It helped also that as a beginner, I read here on
this list about the concept and was therefore aware that in dojos it was frowned
upon top talk unnecessarily.
>
>Even the really dedicated can suddenly get chatty. Maybe because they are there
all the time. It certainly is not just them though. You can see it some
nights...that people are more talking and joking around than training. But
usually it only lasts a little while. Mostly my and other dojos I've seen keep
that down to a minimum. There are always a few folks though that want to talk
more than train.
--
Dr. Peter H. Rehse Research Scientist
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:57:12 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Re: silent practice
Ya hara y'all.
In our dojo there are two kinds of practice. When it's the sensei teaching,
it's the silent kind -he demos the technique several times just saying the
technique's name and then lets the class try it reciting the "do, don't
talk" mantra a couple of times. If he sees something extremely wrong -which
ofcourse happens quite frequently <g>- he stops us and demos again this
time saying a few words, usually to clarify what the extremely wrong part was.
When sempais (mostly shodan and sandan) teach they talk more -once sensei
noted that most of them talk 50% of the time and do 50% when they teach, a
practice he always reminds them he doesn't believe to be very productive.
As a result the sempai's classes are more relaxed in this aspect and you
often hear a soft murmur going on, although this doesn't seem to distract
most people.
Personally speaking, I've found that I learn in three stages:
I)Seeing the technique from sensei/sempai and trying to figure out the
tai/te/ashi sabaki.
II) Elaborating in details -usually with some high kyu/yudansha after class.
III) Ahem, doing <g> -usually silently but since I tend to speak all the
time, talking doesn't seem to distract me much, although I try to avoid it
because it might distract my partner. [*]
I guess it has to do with each person being different and having different
needs in teaching/being taught. My -very limited in aikido but slightly
less limited in other things- experience though, says that if I skip step
II (elaborating in details, usually with much talk) I can't learn or it
takes me ages to.
Life following list, this happened yesterday when during a new technique
-new for me that is <g>-, a variatioon of sumi-otoshi BTW, I asked a sempai
a specific detail in a specific moment (it was during step II -after class
practice). He, stopped me there and started the technique from the
beginning, which gave me enough frustration since I completely lost the
moment and the feel and had to find it all over again. When we got to the
same moment in the technique I asked -again- the detail, he explained it to
me and I did it better (or at least less bad <g>) after on.
Generally speaking, I believe we deep down know how we learn something. If
it is through asking, talking, detailing or through silent practicing and
repeating -so be it. They are not mutually exclusive, at least not in my mind.
Gri
[*] There is another stage which I tend to do a lot -going through the
technique in my mind again and again and trying to remember how it feels
from nage, uke or spectator (different angles) POV. This works miracles for
me -I wonder if there's another thread being hidden somewhere here. The
virtues of mental practice. Hmmmm...
G.A.Miliaresis
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 06:58:43 -0500
From: Monica Bielke
Subject: Re: silent practice
Certainly most adults are pretty aware of their own learning style, and
there's no way I'd say anyone is "wrong" about how they learn! :-) 20
years ago I would have described my learning style as pretty much the
same - see, talk/hear about, do (practice). But that can change,
sometimes without you really being aware of it.
20 years ago I started getting very into learning different kinds of
folk dance. And I've found my learning style gradually changed quite a
bit. I'm must better at watching physical movement and noticing the
details, and (from seeing) knowing/feeling how to use my muscles. I can
often skip the talking stage, or shorten it considerably. Most of the
learning comes from doing it myself. Words are still there (a habit I
haven't broken yet ;-), but (at least w/ regard to physical movement)
the learning process has become much more see & do. Kinesthetic I think
it's called.
Unfortunately the way I remember what I've learned has changed too! :-\
Sometime I can physically remember how to do something but can't for the
life of me verbally describe it. Figures!! :-)
Monica
Gri said:most
> Personally speaking, I've found that I learn in three stages:
> I)Seeing the technique from sensei/sempai and trying to figure out the
tai/te/ashi sabaki.
> II) Elaborating in details -usually with some high kyu/yudansha after
class.
> III) Ahem, doing <g> -usually silently but since I tend to speak all
the time, talking doesn't seem to distract me much, although I try to
avoid it because it might distract my partner. [*]
> I guess it has to do with each person being different and having
different needs in teaching/being taught. My -very limited in aikido but
slightly less limited in other things- experience though, says that if I
skip step II (elaborating in details, usually with much talk) I can't
learn or it takes me ages to.
> Generally speaking, I believe we deep down know how we learn
something. If it is through asking, talking, detailing or through silent
practicing and repeating -so be it. They are not mutually exclusive, at
least not in my mind.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 07:38:50 -0500
From: "Kim A. Sommer"
Subject: Re: silent practice
On Thu, 2 May 2002 Janet Rosen whispered:
>
>OK, a bunch o' folks stateside are off at Vegas, and overall the list is
>pretty quiet, so I'll do my best to start a new ontopic thread....
>
>My new dojo mostly trains in silence as a conscious policy (of course
>when Kim S. visited we kept putting each other into giggle fits, not to
>mention he talks to himself under his breath and I do likewise, so we
>were really a pair of silly happy enfants terribles that night!!!).
now my secret is out. I move my lips when I train.
>I'm curious to read other listka thoughts/experiences on the matter. NOT
>the issue of social chatter/distraction, which we've done to death in
>the past, but what the actual experience is/was like and the lessons
>learned.
I've found that small comments to one's partner or to oneself (mumble
mumble mumble) is not necessarily a distraction. I used to be a monk
on the mat - vow of silence etc. Then at a seminar an instructor
reminded me and several other people that training required
self-discipline not enforced actions and that we were responsible for
doing what was necessary to train. And sometimes comments to each
other is necessary.
That said, several years ago I came to practice on a night I was to
lead class. Work that day had felt like a huge load on the back.
When I go to the dojo I bowed in without a word and the next hour I
didn't speak. This was unplanned. The rest of class stayed silent
as well and the practice flew by with an incredible level of focus
mentally and physically. I've never been able to repeat it.
But I prefer practices where I can giggle with my partner or at least
smile with them when a technique seems to go just right.
Kim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 16:39:58 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: silent practice
From: "Monica Bielke"
> 20 years ago I started getting very into learning different kinds of
> folk dance. And I've found my learning style gradually changed quite a
> bit. I'm must better at watching physical movement and noticing the
> details, and (from seeing) knowing/feeling how to use my muscles> Monica
>
Excellent point. If you are at all like me, and also can think back to when you
first started (aikido or folk dancing..) then you remember having to REALLY
concentrate just ot know which foot to put forward. Or you concentrated on the
foot and had no clue as to what hand to use.
I can remember MANY times getting up out of seiza, getting a partner and not
having a clue as to what the technique was even...wandering mind coupled with
not getting the spacial thing or seeing the whole. Sometimes also focusing on
less important details.
But gradually you work out a method. I ended up getting so frustrated I really
put thought into how I was learning and decided that since they always show the
technique at least three times, the first time I would ONLY concentrate on the
feet (and say to myself either Gyakku or ai-hanmi) deciding that it was the
moment of contact I was interested in. Just my method...so if there was a step
preceding it I just thought "step, yakku hanmi". The next time I would
concentrate on the hand and the body position.
This worked out well and really helped me learn. I also had (still do once in a
while) trouble paying attention to which side I am working on...I mean often I
do the right side and then do it again...depending on the technique. I have to
work on that.
Anyway, after a time I stopped needing to formalize myself so much and it became
more automatic. Still, when I have been away for a while I need to reformalize
it for a short while til I start doing it automatically again.,
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 09:26:06 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: silent practice
"James R. Acker" wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Flying Monkey"
> > I personally work better when I'm given some verbal instruction
> > and mostly nonverbal explanation. But sometimes I get
> > frustrated and the easiest way to calm down for a second is to
> > stand still while someone verbally explains it to me.
> I meant to convey in my previous post that this also is true. I think though
that we all know, when we see it, when people are stalling or avoiding practice
and using conversation for that, or when they simply need clarification.
In practice what happens where I train is that if the instructor sees a
problem that needs verbal explanation,s/he will call for us to sit, and
clarify the point to everybody (I was not specific in my original post;
there IS some verbal instruction, but it is limited to the demo
portion). It takes a little more time in that everybody stops for a
couple of minutes, but I think sometimes a problem glaringly apparent in
one person's practice may also be happening to some degree in other
peoples so it works out.
janet
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:02:55 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: silent practice
Janet Rosen writes:
>My new dojo mostly trains in silence as a conscious policy
<snip>
>I'm curious to read other listka thoughts/experiences on the matter. NOT
>the issue of social chatter/distraction, which we've done to death in
>the past, but what the actual experience is/was like and the lessons
>learned.
My dojo largely trains in silence although sensei will come through
and comment if he feels necessary. But I'm replying to this because
I'm essentially forced to train in silence always, because I cannot
hear while I'm on the mat. So when sensei is showing me something,
it's very hands on, he'll have me try to do it on him and show me
where and why it doesn't work. As you might imagine, I pay very
close attention to how people move.
That said, there's been once or twice where I wound up trying to
explain too much to a newbie and sensei tells me too much talk, just
do it. Then I found I could do much better at giving them some idea
of what to do by demonstrating it carefully when it's my turn,
sometimes repeating the essential motion a few times before completing
it to emphasize that part. Slowing down to demo and do it just right
turns out to be good for me, too. Though then I have to watch out for
the dreaded stop-n-go syndrome...
--
Cindy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 09:44:03 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: silent practice
"G.A.Miliaresis" wrote:
> [*] There is another stage which I tend to do a lot -going through the
> technique in my mind again and again and trying to remember how it feels
> from nage, uke or spectator (different angles) POV. This works miracles for
> me -I wonder if there's another thread being hidden somewhere here. The
> virtues of mental practice. Hmmmm...
Well, since I did mental and watching practice for over a year, I feel
WAY more qualified to address this than to address anything about
on-the-mat training! ;-)
Some thoughts...
When I was a newbie, watching training was not as valuable a learning
tool. We talk onlist sometimes about the earlier stages of learning
aikido being akin to developing a language: learning the words and
learning the syntax. In my experience, until I'd trained long enough to
have that basic level of understanding, I couldn't "read" what I was
watching well enough to learn from it. Once I could, though, it did open
up another world. Besides the basics of "which way does he turn", "which
hand moves up", by watching people work on techniques for 15 minutes or
more (versus watching it demo'd 4 times) I could note how different
angles made a difference, how more shallow or deeper entrances made a
difference, how uke's moving this way or that changed things, etc and
also identify patterns that seemed common to all, not specific to
individual body sizes or ages.
I DO know that a certain amount of progress was made in my aikido from
doing this. Certainly not the same as the progress I'd have made in a
yr+ ON the mat, but progress nonetheless.
I do aikido in my head a LOT. Its where my mind wanders when it wanders.
This mostly seems to help me work on refining body movements--not unlike
going through nage's role solo, in slow motion, to work on techniques in
preparation for testing. It doesn't prepare one for uke, but it does
help the muscle memory. It also helps helps find the
commonality/patterns of movement between techniques which expands one
vision of the art and help develop past technique per se.
just rambling now...
janet
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 09:44:06 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: silent practice
Hmmm. Monica: question for you. Did your ability to learn
kinesthetically in dance carry over into martial arts? or did you at
least initially need to revert to a more verbally based instruction?
janet
Monica Bielke wrote:
> years ago I would have described my learning style as pretty much the
> same - see, talk/hear about, do (practice). But that can change,
> sometimes without you really being aware of it.
> I'm must better at watching physical movement and noticing the
> details, and (from seeing) knowing/feeling how to use my muscles. I can
> often skip the talking stage, or shorten it considerably. Most of the
> learning comes from doing it myself. Words are still there (a habit I
> haven't broken yet ;-), but (at least w/ regard to physical movement)
> the learning process has become much more see & do. Kinesthetic I think
> it's called.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:08:07 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: silent practice
James said:
>The thing is it only happens when either the core group sort of makes it
uncomfortable to be so chatty, or you have people that are ONLY there to
learn aikido and want to concentrate on that and have the discipline.
I don't like it, but working out in a noisy environment does help you learn
to ignore distraction. Enmei Dojo is in a gym and dance school. By the end
of the evening or on a Sunday morning, things are quiet, and that is nice.
>I think if you had a "kubla kai" (or whatever that extreme "hai sensei!
school was called in the "Karate Kid") type environment, it would also
distract from learning but in a different way.
Cobra Kai? Having done karate in large groups with everybody kiaiing away
to their heart's content, it does let you know if your timing is off. It is
most beneficial in that context, I think. Never did like the extreme "hai
sensei" thing. It isn't necessary for respect.
>I think most of us have experienced, and at least briefly, been, the person
that would rather stand there and talk about minutae, or correct things
verbally, or basically do ANYTHING except simply do it again and work out
the kinks. (kinf of like what we do here :-)) People do that kind of thing
for different reasons I think. They do it because they are insecure and a
little afraid of actually doing it and failing or because have the type of
personality that they have to know-it-all, or they are actually more there
in the dojo for campanionship than to actually learn aikido, or possibly a
myriad of other reasons.
Not to mention that with at least some beginners, talking does help.
I don't mind beginners talking about the technique, but I discourage other
talk. If I see too much talk of any kind I discourage it, but I want people
to have fun, and learn.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:11:13 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: silent practice
Monica Bielke writes:
>Unfortunately the way I remember what I've learned has changed too! :-\
>Sometime I can physically remember how to do something but can't for the
>life of me verbally describe it. Figures!! :-)
I'm having this same problem at the moment teaching cats cradle to
a younger child! :-) I can do it easily, but walking her through
it has been more difficult. I'm going to get a second string for her
to use at the same time I demo it. Maybe that will work better.
--Cindy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:44:21 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
"G.A.Miliaresis" wrote:
> Personally speaking, I've found that I learn in three stages:
<snip>
> There is another stage which I tend to do a lot -going through the
> technique in my mind again and again and trying to remember how it feels
> from nage, uke or spectator (different angles) POV. This works miracles for
> me -I wonder if there's another thread being hidden somewhere here. The
> virtues of mental practice. Hmmmm...
Visualization--a technique commmon to the most successful
athletes and succesful folk in all areas of endeavour.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:09:53 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
"James R. Acker" wrote:
> But gradually you work out a method. I ended up getting so
> frustrated I really put thought into how I was learning and
> decided that since they always show the technique at least three
> times, the first time I would ONLY concentrate on the feet (and
> say to myself either Gyakku or ai-hanmi) deciding that it was the
> moment of contact I was interested in. Just my method...so if
> there was a step preceding it I just thought "step, yakku hanmi".
> The next time I would concentrate on the hand and the body position.
Excellent idea, Jim. Most of us probably do that to some extent,
but thanks for describing it.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:25:18 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
> Jon C Strauss wrote:
> > IMO: use all of the tools at your disposal.
Always good advice.
Flying Monkey wrote:
> I think it's also important to remember that there are as many
> different ways to learn as there are people in the world.
A point that's lost many times. Too rigid a structure can
alienate many learners, usually more creative types.
> I guess it just seems to me that there are many different
> responses to each situation and it seems only right that there
> isn't one blanket response that fits every single one of them.
And isn't that really what aikido is all about anyway? Finding
the appropriate response (preferably while minimizing damage to
self and others)?
> Emotionally exhausted after completing final exams, which did
> not go as well as she had hoped they would
Cheer up, Angie. Everyone has to have ONE term/semester that
they can look back on and admit they could have done better.
It's a yardstick to measure progress by.
Speaking of progress: are you back training yet?
Al
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:38:18 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
Jake Jacobe wrote:
>
> I sometimes do blindfolded practice and find that it enhances sensitivity
> to uke's energy...
Now, blindfold uke, too, and that would get interesting...
Has Shaner Sensei done the "close eyes and let your partner lead
you" excercise at any of the seminars you've been to with him?
It's very good for feeling energy and connecting--and finding
your own floating center, like skateboarding.
> Likewise I have practiced silently on occasion and feel that it has a lot
> to offer ... occasionally.
Agreed. About once a month when I trained with my first teacher,
we'd have a totally silent class. He'd explain the techniques
(ones already taught) to be practiced, and we'd work on them with
no talking, no questions. It was a great way to strip away the
more "conscious" mind (the running commentary we all carry around
about what's happening) and concentrate on seeing/feeling the
techniques.
[Constant lack of verbal instruction]
> It would be like training with one hand tied behind my back (which, now
> that I think of it, I have done before).
> ;-)
You'll have to stop annoying your senseis. <grin>
Al
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:14:22 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
Monica Bielke wrote:
> Ellis dojo...isn't the kind of dojo where you're always shouting "Hai,
> Sensei!" and dropping into seiza when he strolls by to check on things...
LOL!!!
> training is fairly steady-paced and quiet. Silence isn't enforced, but
> idle chatter is definitely discouraged.
Respectful quietude--only talking when necessary to clarify--and
concentrating on what you're learning has been the norm when I've
trained. Some classes at my present dojo are noisier than
others, but on the whole, most folks want to get full mat time in
learning and practicing, not talking.
> I think, given the right partner, that silent/nearly silent practice can
> be really helpful for working on something intensively. OTOH, I don't
> think I would enjoy (or keep going to) a class where one had to be
> completely silent the entire classtime every night.
There is natural silence (a space for listening and
concentrating) and then unnatural silence (where one may have a
question or concern, but the social strictures are such that one
is too intimidated to ask). The latter does not belong in
aikido.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:02:20 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
"Kim A. Sommer" wrote:
> I used to be a monk on the mat - vow of silence etc.
When you first start at a dojo, oftentimes you are, until you get
used to what's acceptable.
> Then at a seminar an instructor reminded me and several other
> people that training required self-discipline not enforced actions
> and that we were responsible for doing what was necessary to train.
It is, in the end, YOUR aikido, not anyone else's. And you are
responsible for it.
> And sometimes comments to each other is necessary.
"Connection" is not just in a kinesthetic sense.
> I prefer practices where I can giggle with my partner or at least
> smile with them when a technique seems to go just right.
Yep! The dojo shouldn't feel like a morgue. (No offense to the
Sultana of Slash intended, Jim.)
Al
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 13:03:09 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
Janet Rosen wrote:
> In practice what happens where I train is that if the instructor sees a
> problem that needs verbal explanation,s/he will call for us to sit, and
> clarify the point to everybody (I was not specific in my original post;
> there IS some verbal instruction, but it is limited to the demo
> portion). It takes a little more time in that everybody stops for a
> couple of minutes, but I think sometimes a problem glaringly apparent in
> one person's practice may also be happening to some degree in other
> peoples so it works out.
That is how it is done at my dojo, also. We'll be practicing and
a problem with execution, or something additional that needs to
be further clarified is noticed and addressed. Sensei doesn't
want us to form any bad habits or mistakenly do techniques in
ways that could harm or offend others, so he'll stop class, get
everyone's attention, and demonstrate/explain the correct way.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 12:19:34 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: silent practice
And of course....I forgot the NUMBER ONE reason that people sometimes talk too
much, unecessarily, on the mat......
because they aren't in condition for the pace.
I can't believe I forgot that one. A LOT of people use blabber to stall between
techniques and give themselves a little break. Out of this comes the most
meaningless kind of chatter, because they have to invent things to say to stall
so it didn't come naturally because of a question.
Maybe the answer with these people would be to try and slow down. I know that I
have often been out of shape and sometimes pushed myself to hard...so I ended up
having to hold up one hand in the international "pause" signal, catch breath,
then continue. But after practicing regularly again, I push hard to get my
conditioning up. My model is still the video from Eurosport, Tissier senseis uke....the
guy just springs up from the mat, no hesitation and attacks again. I try, and
often fail, to do that a lot of the time. I notice that some people don't like
it at all, because it is tough on both uke and nage. I temper it to match the
person I am with...if someone is new, or not familiar with the technique I slow
down a little, and also can adjust the speed of the attack...but still try and
get up immidiately and be ready to attack in the shortest time.
But an awful lot of folks, even before they are winded, tend to talk to keep the
pace slow.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 11:02:44 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: silent practice
"James R. Acker" wrote:
>
> And of course....I forgot the NUMBER ONE reason that people sometimes talk too
much, unecessarily, on the mat......
>
> because they aren't in condition for the pace.
>
> I can't believe I forgot that one. A LOT of people use blabber to stall
between techniques and give themselves a little break. Out of this comes the
most meaningless kind of chatter, because they have to invent things to say to
stall so it didn't come naturally because of a question.
LOL! If I'm that tired, I don't want to spend precious deep-breathing
time on chatter; I MUCH prefer the slooooow stroll to the edge of the
mat to adjust my belt, gi, hak, then the sloooos turnback to smile and
bow to my partner and stroooooolll back to the middle of the mat.... :-)
janet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 01:36:27 -0500
From: "Kim A. Sommer"
Subject: Re: silent practice
On Sat, 4 May 2002 Janet Rosen wrote:
>"James R. Acker" wrote:
>>
>> And of course....I forgot the NUMBER ONE reason that people sometimes talk
too much, unecessarily, on the mat......
>>
>> because they aren't in condition for the pace.
>>
>
>LOL! If I'm that tired, I don't want to spend precious deep-breathing
>time on chatter; I MUCH prefer the slooooow stroll to the edge of the
>mat to adjust my belt, gi, hak, then the sloooos turnback to smile and
>bow to my partner and stroooooolll back to the middle of the mat.... :-)
And at higher levels there is the more subtle "tenken away from the
partner at the end of the technique". Those milliseconds add up.
:-)
Kim
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 07:11:43 -0700
From: David Monahan-Lesseps
Subject: Re: silent practice
>On Sat, 4 May 2002 Janet Rosen wrote:
> >bow to my partner and stroooooolll back to the middle of the mat.... :-)
>From: "Kim A. Sommer"
>And at higher levels there is the more subtle "tenken away from the
>partner at the end of the technique". Those milliseconds add up.
>:-)
>
Of course there is also the face cloth in the dogi-jacket. Seems like all
the old-timers (should I say the "wise") at my dojo carry one of these
stuffed in there jacket, and they pull it out between techniques to wipe the
sweat off their face. A few extra seconds are gained by stuffing it back
into the jacket and re-aranging thier dogi. :)
David "the trick is to mantain zanshin" M-L
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 09:17:21 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: silent practice
"James R. Acker" wrote:
>
> And of course....I forgot the NUMBER ONE reason that people sometimes talk too
much, unecessarily, on the mat......
>
> because they aren't in condition for the pace.
>
> I can't believe I forgot that one. A LOT of people use blabber to
> stall between techniques and give themselves a little break...
And some people just talk too much.
> Maybe the answer with these people would be to try and slow down.
If that's really what they need or want. You have to determine
that first, though.
> But after practicing regularly again, I push hard to get my
> conditioning up. My model is still the video from Eurosport,
> Tissier senseis uke....the guy just springs up from the mat, no
> hesitation and attacks again. I try, and often fail, to do that a
> lot of the time.
But that _is_ the ideal. To be in condition to give a committed,
effective attack (and response) for as long as needed. Sort of
like once you start doing CPR on someone--you do it until either
the Paramedics arrive, or until you are too physically exhausted
to continue, even if it seems like it's going to take forever.
> I notice that some people don't like it at all,
> because it is tough on both uke and nage.
IMHO, it's the best way to learn and refine one's abilities and
techniques, though. Practicing "under live fire", so to speak,
brings out strength, endurance, and adaptability that one often
hasn't realized they have. And a committed attack beats a wimpy
one any day. Yes, people may physically tire, but it's the
intent that counts (in Ki-Weespeak: "mind moves first"). And in
the best practice, when you're in synch, you blend with your
partner's energy, so you're constantly renewing it anyway,
regardlesss of the pace.
> I temper it to match the person I am with...if someone is new, or
> not familiar with the technique I slow down a little, and also can
> adjust the speed of the attack...but still try and get up
> immidiately and be ready to attack in the shortest time.
And if you notice you are starting to get disconnected,
reestablish the connection. This is often easier for the more
advanced partner to do. If you have an inexperienced nage (or
one that hasn't practiced in a while), for instance, they may not
know quite how to indicate that you're attacking at an acceptable
pace for them. Or if they've never worked with someone who gives
a really good attack, they might be concerned about not
overtaxing YOU.
> But an awful lot of folks, even before they are winded, tend to
> talk to keep the pace slow.
To paraphrase from Ecclesiastes:
To everything there is a season:
A time to talk...a time to refrain from talking.
If you're going to cook a tasty dish to eat, you'll probably run
the preparation and other details over in your head a few
times. As firefighters we used to cook steaks once a week at the
station, and talk (and thought) about that used to occupy a
portion of daily conversation (okay, it was usually the highlight
of the week, and we obsessed about it). But when the day rolled
around and it was time to cook and eat, we were too busy enjoying
firing up the grill, saucing the meat and smelling all those
wonderful smells as it cooked, and, finally, digging in...not
much room for talk when you're in the thick of it.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:14:12 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Re: silent practice
>Janet wrote:
> >LOL! If I'm that tired, I don't want to spend precious deep-breathing
> >time on chatter; I MUCH prefer the slooooow stroll to the edge of the
> >mat to adjust my belt, gi, hak, then the sloooos turnback to smile and
> >bow to my partner and stroooooolll back to the middle of the mat.... :-)
Then Kim added:
> >And at higher levels there is the more subtle "tenken away from the
> >partner at the end of the technique". Those milliseconds add up.
> >:-)
You can also add a few seconds of (a) contemplating the perfect ma-ai,
tsugi-ashiing an inch or two fwd/bckwd (b) a little wrist shaking for
calming down the spirit (furi-tama?) and (c) half closing and opening again
the eyes showing you really meditate on the True Meaning (TM) of the
technique about to be executed and, presto! -not only you've killed half
the time but also convinced your partner that you've reached a higher level
of enlightenment converting thus a mere waza to a real spiritual experience. Infinitesimal pauses between the various stages of the technique also
add up to that special "shihan look & feel" :-PP
Gri
PS
Alan said:
>I don't like it, but working out in a noisy environment does help
you
>learn to ignore distraction.
I can testify to that -working in a newspaper environment has worked
miracles for my being able to sit in front of the computer and work on what
I had to do, ignoring screaming editors, phones ringing, clerks running
around, tv's and radios playing loud etc. Come to think of it, the slight
murmur in the dojo seems like a graveyard in comparison...
G.A.Miliaresis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:12:37 -0400
From: Scooterman
Subject: Re: practice pace
On Sat, 4 May 2002 Janet Rosen wrote:
>"James R. Acker" wrote:
>>
>> And of course....I forgot the NUMBER ONE reason that people sometimes talk
too much, unecessarily, on the mat...... because they aren't in condition for
the pace.
>>
=====================
That brings something to mind...
There's a subtle balance to be maintained that affects the quality of
practice...
given the limited amount of time in which to practice.
Like the Military, you can bloody well get with the program right quick or get
the
Hell out... better yet... just hurry up and die.
There's THAT mentality.
There's the other extreme that'll turn the class inside out to accomodate
someone
that will eventually fall out of their own accord... till then, however, it
takes
45 minutes just to go thru the warm-ups.
Aikido may be a MARTIAL Art... Military.
But in case anyone didn't notice, I didn't [and won't] pay to reenlist.
If I DID join the Military, I've got a couple of years back pay coming.
I've led men... military men thru PT & other activities. There's the minimum
military standard that EVERYONE has to live up to. Usually, it only takes a
second
or 2 to figure out what level everyone... or the AVERAGE everyone is playing at;
match it [and a scooch more] then maintain it. Be consistent. Focus. Try. Give
of
yourself. Act like it's important.
People respect that... and will follow you to hell & back because of it.
You want to do 10, 20 or 100 backbreakfalls after a long, hard, HOT class? Fine.
Let's go. You want to play Jack in the box after you've spent all night walking
around & not even a crease in your hakama? Then you'll be doing those breakfalls
by yourself... when I've had my fill.
If I'd a wanted to aerobicise, I'd be at Vic's gym with all the lard asses
squeezed into leotards & sweats 3 sizes too small.
I don't really have a gripe... or a point. If this hits home, THINK for 2
seconds
before you unleash the napalm. You might be God's gift to Aikido [or any other
MA]
but I'm not... won't be & frankly don't even care to be.
Practice WITH me... or go play by yourself [make sure there's mirrors so you can
admire your bad self too].
I was LAST when I started. I got my ass in gear and... wonder of wonders, didn't
DIE. Now I'm about average. I'm game to try most anything that comes on the mat.
Above average when it comes to HEART. I try. I show up even when I can't get
dressed.
When some joker disrespects me AND Aikido by zipping thru something to
[apparently] "just get it done", they don't have my respect.
It detracts from the BUDO of Aikido. [IMHO]
If they slow it down & waste MY time and money, they've stolen from me.
I try to give my best at ALL TIMES.
I expect those on the mat with me to do the same.
There's a middle road, the correct PATH, that'll satisfy everyone... and satisfy
the spirit of Aikido.
Scoot
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:37:46 -0400
From: Charles Yeomans
Subject: Re: silent practice
At 12:19 PM +0200 5/4/2002, James R. Acker wrote:
>And of course....I forgot the NUMBER ONE reason that people
>sometimes talk too much, unecessarily, on the mat......
>
> because they aren't in condition for the pace.
>
>I can't believe I forgot that one. A LOT of people use blabber to
>stall between techniques and give themselves a little break. Out of
>this comes the most meaningless kind of chatter, because they have
>to invent things to say to stall so it didn't come naturally because
>of a question.
>
>
>Maybe the answer with these people would be to try and slow down. I
>know that I have often been out of shape and sometimes pushed myself
>to hard...so I ended up having to hold up one hand in the
>international "pause" signal, catch breath, then continue. But after
>practicing regularly again, I push hard to get my conditioning up.
>My model is still the video from Eurosport, Tissier senseis
>uke....the guy just springs up from the mat, no hesitation and
>attacks again. I try, and often fail, to do that a lot of the time.
>I notice that some people don't like it at all, because it is tough
>on both uke and nage. I temper it to match the person I am with...if
>someone is new, or not familiar with the technique I slow down a
>little, and also can adjust the speed of the attack...but still try
>and get up immidiately and be ready to attack in the shortest time.
>
As it turns out, I attended a seminar last weekend with Amos Parker.
He was talking about demos, and expressed a certain amount of
skepticism about demos featuring ukes who spring back up and come
charging in. His thought was that they were certainly fun to watch,
but perhaps the aikido being shown lacked something -- a certain
finality.
I took a lot of ukemi for him during the seminar, and although I of
course jumped up quickly after being thrown, his techniques had that
finish and focus. It's a little hard to explain, but even though he
wasn't throwing me full power, he was finishing every throw and I
felt the need to run a self-check after each throw.
As I understood him, your intention when throwing uke should be for
him to be unable to get back up -- if uke has good ukemi, then maybe
he can weather the throw. But, of course, you can certainly dial
back the power and speed of the throw in practice -- he certainly
didn't break anyone, including the newbies.
Referring back to an earlier thread, I'll say that this is something
I learned only by taking ukemi. I'm not sure I would have picked
this up only by watching.
Charles Yeomans
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:43:57 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: silent practice
Janet Rosen writes:
>LOL! If I'm that tired, I don't want to spend precious deep-breathing
>time on chatter; I MUCH prefer the slooooow stroll to the edge of the
>mat to adjust my belt, gi, hak, then the sloooos turnback to smile and
>bow to my partner and stroooooolll back to the middle of the mat.... :-)
Heh! Or if hte technique involves a pin, you sloooowly set it up, ostensibly
to get it just right, take your partner slooowly to just before the tap,
and then sloooowly put his hand on his back, and sloooowly get up :-).*
* no ukes were harmed during the production, of course
--
Cindy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:59:11 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Re: silent practice
Janet wrote:
>Well, since I did mental and watching practice for over a year, I feel
>WAY more qualified to address this than to address anything about
>on-the-mat training! ;-)
Every cloud has a silver lining, huh? <g>.
---<good stuff about newbiedom snipped&>---
>I do aikido in my head a LOT. Its where my mind wanders when it wanders.
>This mostly seems to help me work on refining body movements--not unlike
>going through nage's role solo, in slow motion, to work on techniques in
>preparation for testing. It doesn't prepare one for uke, but it does
>help the muscle memory. It also helps helps find the
>commonality/patterns of movement between techniques which expands one
>vision of the art and help develop past technique per se.
After seeing it in Carol's book (don't remember which one -sorry Mme S)
I was quite amazed about that guy who was nicknamed "one man taigi" and his
ability to do both the nage *and* the uke part of a technique. Since then
I've tried to do it too and -surpise, suprise!- it works in other ways
besides being a stupid mat trick <g>. I think it has really helped me both
doing live aikido and mental replaying of techniques. Back to the mental
waza, it played a major role to my preparing the techniques for my last
exams and having seen the results (everybody agreed I sucked on a much
higher level than all the other testees -I dunno, I wasn't there) I
don't intend to let it go. What bugs me is that most sempais tend to forget
this aspect of practice -one of them actually dismissed it completely
saying "only what you do live on the mat pays back -you did better 'cause
of your mat time was most than the others'". I still think he's got it
wrong -what does he know? He's just a newbie with a hak, right?
Gri
G.A.Miliaresis
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002