Ukemi, Interesting Study
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002
12:51:44 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Daniel C. Pokorny wrote:
> Ukemi......... Interesting study.
I'm thinking it may be the most interesting in the realm of aikido
practice, but that could just be me.
> Is our ability to execute a clean breakfall or quiet roll really ukemi or
> just good gymnastics?
Of course it's not necessary to be able to take beautiful breakfalls
day in and day out. Of course, it's not necessary to take forward
rolls that make a pin dropping sound deafening in comparison.
However, I'll say that the pursuit in working with one's body in such
a way to be able to do such may be valuable for many people.
Undertaking exercises that stretch your ukemi abilities so that you're
able to do things that may seem like "good gymnastics" can expand upon
your ability to safely take ukemi that otherwise wouldn't have been
within your "comfort" level.
Case in point is an exercise that Julian outlined a while back of
rolling in all eight directions and back to the same starting point
while maintaining the same hanmi when starting the roll and getting
back up. I've started using this ukemi exercise in the ukemi class
and found it interesting since it allows me to delve into the
"uncomfortable" angles and work with it.
This kind of basic rolling practice enables you to feel "discomfort"
during ukemi (eg being thrown at a very obtuse angle than where you
were facing) and come up safe and sound.
> I'm now working on the more subtle aspects of ukemi, like slipping a
> punch, staying connected to tori in order to "read" the intentions, re-
> directing a kick or simply stepping off the line of attack. This, to me
> anyway, is the real core of ukemi that seems less practiced today than the
> rolling and spectacular breakfalls. Is it because it's not as exciting as
> tumbling across the mat?
As it's been said, the rolling part of ukemi is perhaps 10% of what
ukemi is all about. The rest of it, I think, overlaps greatly with
the same exact principles we talk about as nage -- connection,
balance, posture, awareness, and so on. Part of my practice as uke
has been to think, experience, and act (as well as I can) these
principles while uke.
This is why I often say that ukemi and nagemi (hrmph -- I'm still not
too sure if I like that term very much) are the same...
Did that make sense?
> -Mongo
It was good training with you at the Expo. We'll have to do so again
sometime, huh?
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:06:55 -0400
From: "Daniel C. Pokorny"
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
On Fri, 10 May 2002 14:07:55 -0400, Mike Bartman wrote:
>At 10:51 AM 5/10/02 -0400, Daniel C. Pokorny wrote:
>>but is that really ukemi or just good
>>gymnastic ability and awareness? I'm not so sure here.....
>
>Is there a difference?
Yes, I think there should be. In gymnastics, once the move is completed,
it ends. Giant on the high bar, double back gainer dismount, plant the
landing and TA-DA... it's over. Ukemi, to me anyway, requires a connection
(zanshin?) before, during and especially after the escape. So yes, I feel
there is indeed a big difference here however, the physical method of
escape is very similar.......
>> Is our ability to execute a clean breakfall or quiet roll really ukemi or
>>just good gymnastics?
>
>Those don't seem to be "either/or" to me...more like "and".
Could be for some... but again, if the connection (be it mental, spiritual
or physical) is not present and maintained, then to me, it's just
gymnastics.
>> I'm now working on the more subtle aspects of ukemi, like slipping a
>>punch, staying connected to tori in order to "read" the intentions, re-
>>directing a kick or simply stepping off the line of attack. This, to me
>>anyway, is the real core of ukemi that seems less practiced today than the
>>rolling and spectacular breakfalls. Is it because it's not as exciting as
>>tumbling across the mat?
>
>I think "ukemi" is the art of receiving technique in a way that lets you do
>it more than once. It's not just rolling.
Well, I continue to try that vertical hill (more than once) however, I
still do not feel that my continued escapes from the rolling quad really
qualifies as ukemi.... once out of harms way, I don't have to worry about
the quad coming back up the hill to try and run me over again.... the
connection is lost...
-Mongo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:46:11 -0400
From: "Daniel C. Pokorny"
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
On Fri, 10 May 2002 12:51:44 -0600, Jun Akiyama wrote:
>
>It was good training with you at the Expo. We'll have to do so again
>sometime, huh?
>
> Jun
>
Jun,
Did Paul slam your head at the expo? We never did get the chance to train
together. I'm still waiting for that opportunity. I did however enjoy
meeting you and having lunch.....and thanks again for letting me store my
gear at your vendor table! I really got tired of toating it around. It was
a great lunch with Hooker sensei, throwing pizza crust to the little birds
then cheering them on when the pigeons showed up to take over! HA! That's
him. He gets things started, then sits back and cheers for the underdog.....
In the past I've focused a lot on the rolling and breakfalls of ukemi.
Since my knee operation though, I've had to take a different look at ukemi
all together. I've realized that the "escape" or ukemi can and does happen
at different times and in different ways, not just once contact has been
made. It's very interesting and hard to explain. Just exploring the various
ways of getting off the attack line, whether it's tori's counter while
being uke, or the initial attack while being tori, is extremely
interesting... I just haven't seen it practiced as much as the rolling and
breakfalls....
You certainly got your chance for ukemi practice with Ikeda sensei huh?!?
He was tossing you around pretty good.....!
Thanks for the insight....
-Mongo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:59:07 -0700
From: Chuck Clark
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
At 09:28 AM 5/10/2002 -0700, Janet wrote:
>For me the most challenging part of ukemi is the "in between" --what
>happens after I've attacked and before nage totally undermines my
>balance?
Hi Janet,
I think the really "juicy" stuff is the in between things. On both sides of
the relationship. It's the stuff you have to be really creative with each
instant to get it "right".
C. Clark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:13:35 -0400
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
At 03:06 PM 5/10/02 -0400, Daniel C. Pokorny wrote:
>On Fri, 10 May 2002 14:07:55 -0400, Mike Bartman >wrote:
>>>but is that really ukemi or just good
>>>gymnastic ability and awareness? I'm not so sure here.....
>>
>>Is there a difference?
>
> Yes, I think there should be. In gymnastics, once the move is completed,
>it ends. Giant on the high bar, double back gainer dismount, plant the
>landing and TA-DA... it's over. Ukemi, to me anyway, requires a connection
>(zanshin?) before, during and especially after the escape. So yes, I feel
>there is indeed a big difference here however, the physical method of
>escape is very similar.......
In both cases you maintain concentration/connection/awareness
throughout...right up to the point where you are finished and don't need to
anymore. In gymnastics that's a point shortly after you "stick" your
landing and demonstrate that you did so under control, not by accident. In
ukemi it may be after the sensei claps for everyone to go to seiza and
watch the next bit of instruction. There's an end to it in both cases
though, and what you are doing is similar in both cases in other ways, too.
Yes, there are differences, just as there are differences between the
ukemi for shihonage and the ukemi for kotegeishi...but there are
similarities all around too. Similarities are as important to recognize as
differences. I think so anyway.
>>> Is our ability to execute a clean breakfall or quiet roll really ukemi or
>>>just good gymnastics?
>>
>>Those don't seem to be "either/or" to me...more like "and".
>
> Could be for some... but again, if the connection (be it mental, spiritual
>or physical) is not present and maintained, then to me, it's just
>gymnastics.
And if it isn't gymnastic at all, it's a loud thud and more pain than I'd
prefer. "Falling pile of bricks" sort of thing. That's why it's both when
done right.
-- Mike "it's certainly not an exclusive or" Bartman --
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:45:01 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Chuck Clark wrote:
> I think the really "juicy" stuff is the in between things. On both sides of
> the relationship. It's the stuff you have to be really creative with each
> instant to get it "right".
As I read that something clicked....
pre-injury, it was mainly in my role as uke that I focussed so much on
connection with partner. I think that as nage maybe I was still needing
a lot of conscious attention on the mechanics of each technique.
In the few weeks I've been back on the mat, I notice that as nage I'm
more able to stay in the "now", attentive to the changing connection
with uke, rather than focussing on "getting there."
Either I've made a wee little advance, or else I'm getting to old to
remember where "there" is ;-)
janet
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 08:31:06 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
James R. Acker wrote:
> From: "Jun Akiyama"
> > Case in point is an exercise that Julian outlined a while back of
> > rolling in all eight directions and back to the same starting point
> > while maintaining the same hanmi when starting the roll and getting
> > back up. I've started using this ukemi exercise in the ukemi class
> > and found it interesting since it allows me to delve into the
> > "uncomfortable" angles and work with it.
>
> Was this orignally from a post by Julian? If so could you send
> it to me? If not, would it be incredibly difficult or a huge job
> to describe how this works? My interest was really piqued.
It's an easy enough exercise so I'll describe it here.
The way I lead this exercise is for people to stand at the
intersection of four tatami so it's easy to see the eight directions
(N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW). Starting with either feet squared (both
on the E-W line, toes pointing N) or in left or right hanmi, the
object is to do a front roll in each direction then do another front
roll back to the original point.
The tough parts of this is that we want to get back up in the same
hanmi or feet stance as when we take the original roll and also to not
change the location of the feet as we initiate the roll. In other
words, when we do the roll to the South, we don't want to turn our
feet 180 degrees (no tenkai!).
Did that make sense? Any comments from people on this exercise?
> Jim
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 11:18:01 -0400
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
i have never done it from shizentai - square feet. isuspect its easier must
sugest it:^)
Simon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 19:46:50 -0700
From: Mariana Studart Soares Pereira
Subject: Re: Ukemi and handedness
--- Joachim Hensel-Losch wrote:
> Hi, Mariana:
Hi Joachim :)
> Handedness comes in different degrees from extreme to
> nil.
> I'm a case of a "hard-core" lefty who was forced by my
> teachers
> to change over to right-handed writing, but I don't
> recognize
> myself in your description. Almost fifty years ago, but
> the
> memory is still vividly unpleasant - it was literally
> painful.
> Do I understand that you were converted, too?
I don't think so, actually. Even though I'm obviously
left-eye dominant, I don't think that I'm actually a lefty,
since I have absolutely *no* abilities with my left hand.
That is, other than the fact that I do everything better on
my left side in Aikido :) But that might have to do with
eye-dominance more than with hand-dominance.
Isn't there some study about each side of the brain being
responsible for a different characteristic? I believe that
the left side was rational and the right side was creative,
but I may be way off here...
> IMHO, if you are a genuine lefty, it should be not too
> hard
> to learn how to do anything with your left hand
> (including
> mirror-writing like Leonardo, if you wnat to).
Then I'm most definitely *not* a genuine lefty, since I can
do very little with my left hand...
> However,
> if
> you attempt to write with your left, take care that you
> do
> not try to take back your conversion to right-handed
> writing.
> Meaning that you should continue to write predominantly
> with
> your right hand.
No worries there :)
> (BTW, I use the right hand for writing and for work that
> requires strength (hammer, saw etc), but the left for
> drawing,
> shaving, eating and jobs that are more delicate, such as
> soldering. Right-eye dominant. For rolling I favor the
> right
> hand.)
So, the rolling part has probably more to do with eye
dominance... Or maybe it's opposed to hand-dominance?
> Joachim
=====
Mariana Studart
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:30:01 +0200
From: Karl Breuer
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Jun schrieb am 11.05.02:
> It's an easy enough exercise so I'll describe it here.
>
> The way I lead this exercise is for people to stand at the
> intersection of four tatami so it's easy to see the eight directions
> (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW). Starting with either feet squared (both
> on the E-W line, toes pointing N) or in left or right hanmi, the
> object is to do a front roll in each direction then do another front
> roll back to the original point.
>
> The tough parts of this is that we want to get back up in the same
> hanmi or feet stance as when we take the original roll and also to not
> change the location of the feet as we initiate the roll. In other
> words, when we do the roll to the South, we don't want to turn our
> feet 180 degrees (no tenkai!).
>
> Did that make sense? Any comments from people on this exercise?
>
> Jun
>
hm, I seem to have a few questions here.
when you do a forward roll to the North are you still facing North after the
roll? How do you get back?
when you're standing feet squared facing North, how can you do a forward roll to
the South? Best thing possible to me seems to be SW or SE - without taking kind
of a jump.
when you start from hanmi, do you roll over the same arm for the whole compass
rose? e.g. right hanmi, right arm, roll to the SE? and does the roll to the
South come after SE or SW, body-twisting-wise?
no backward rolls in this exercise?
clueless
Karlo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:35:54 -0400
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Re: SV: Ukemi, Interesting Study
>What is the name of this exercise?
Uhh, happo ukemi at a wild guess.
>
>-----Opprinnelig melding-----
>Jun schrieb am 11.05.02:
>> It's an easy enough exercise so I'll describe it here.
>>
>> The way I lead this exercise is for people to stand at the
>> intersection of four tatami so it's easy to see the eight directions
>> (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW). Starting with either feet squared (both
>> on the E-W line, toes pointing N) or in left or right hanmi, the
>> object is to do a front roll in each direction then do another front
>> roll back to the original point.
>>
>> The tough parts of this is that we want to get back up in the same
>> hanmi or feet stance as when we take the original roll and also to not
>> change the location of the feet as we initiate the roll. In other
>> words, when we do the roll to the South, we don't want to turn our
>> feet 180 degrees (no tenkai!).
>>
>> Did that make sense? Any comments from people on this exercise?
>>
>> Jun
>>
>
>hm, I seem to have a few questions here.
>when you do a forward roll to the North are you still facing North after
the
>roll?
Yes you do a forward roll to the north coming up facing north in your
orginal Kamae.
How do you get back?
staying in the same stance you take a forward roll directly behind you.
due south comeing up in the same kamae facing north.
Every time you roll no matter what direction you point you come up in the
same kamae faceing the same direction, north.
to come up
>when you're standing feet squared facing North, how can you do a forward
>roll to the South?
Just follow the directions to Carniege Hall.
Best thing possible to me seems to be SW or SE - without
>taking kind of a jump.
Hmmmm Yeeeusss
>when you start from hanmi, do you roll over the same arm for the whole
>compass rose? e.g. right hanmi, right arm, roll to the SE? and does the
roll
>to the South come after SE or SW, body-twisting-wise?
You always roll with the same hand right hanmi, right hand; left hanmi,
left hand
>no backward rolls in this exercise?
no back rolls
>
>clueless
>Karlo
>
Karlo I have no doubt at all that you will make it look easy after you have
run through it a couple of times.
Simon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 08:47:21 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: SV: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Simen Smestad wrote:
> when you do a forward roll to the North are you still facing North after the
> roll?
Yes.
> How do you get back?
By going South.
> when you're standing feet squared facing North, how can you do a forward
> roll to the South?
By doing a "backwards" forward roll. It's still a forwards roll
except, well, you start with your torse facing forward.
> when you start from hanmi, do you roll over the same arm for the whole
> compass rose?
It's a good way to practice.
> and does the roll to the South come after SE or SW,
> body-twisting-wise?
I don't think the order really matters.
> no backward rolls in this exercise?
Nope.
> Karlo
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:24:29 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Jun Akiyama writes:
>The way I lead this exercise is for people to stand at the
>intersection of four tatami so it's easy to see the eight directions
>(N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW). Starting with either feet squared (both
>on the E-W line, toes pointing N) or in left or right hanmi, the
>object is to do a front roll in each direction then do another front
>roll back to the original point.
>
>The tough parts of this is that we want to get back up in the same
>hanmi or feet stance as when we take the original roll and also to not
>change the location of the feet as we initiate the roll. In other
>words, when we do the roll to the South, we don't want to turn our
>feet 180 degrees (no tenkai!).
I waited for someone else to comment, but no one has. OK, I don't
geddit. Did you mean to say you roll forward out and then roll
*backwards* back? Because I don't see how you do two front rolls and
wind up back at the intersection without doing a 180 somewhere...
--Cindy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:49:21 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Cindy wrote:
> I waited for someone else to comment, but no one has. OK, I don't
> geddit. Did you mean to say you roll forward out and then roll
> *backwards* back?
No, you do a "backwards" forwards roll.
> Because I don't see how you do two front rolls and
> wind up back at the intersection without doing a 180 somewhere...
Try facing north in left hanmi. You can do a forwards roll due south
without shifting your feet (the 180 degree turn you're talking about).
The right side roll (over your right shoulder) in this case is easier
than the left side roll, of course.
> --Cindy
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:49:41 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
> I waited for someone else to comment, but no one has. OK, I don't
> geddit. Did you mean to say you roll forward out and then roll
> *backwards* back? Because I don't see how you do two front rolls and
> wind up back at the intersection without doing a 180 somewhere...
That's the point of the exercise. Another one to try would be this:
If you're facing in the 12:00 direction, do a forward roll in the 1:00
direction (pretty easy, huh?). Then the 2:00 direction, then 3:00, and
so forth around the circle. This version transitions from a "normal"
forward roll to a "backward" forward roll more gradually, which may make
it easier to see how to do the backward version.
The backward version is hard to describe, but yes it is a completely
normal forward roll, in that your body touches the mat in the same
order: hand-arm-shoulder-back-hips-leg.
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 11:09:28 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> The backward version is hard to describe, but yes it is a completely
> normal forward roll, in that your body touches the mat in the same
> order: hand-arm-shoulder-back-hips-leg.
One way our senior instructor gets people to do this is asks them to
face north, point with the arm outstretched in that direction, bring
the hand all the way up (so it's facing, well, up), then continue the
arc so your arm is pretty much behind you. You can let this arm
motion affect your body a bit so you can feel your body start to
"move" in the backwards direction to do the roll.
Another exercise we've done is to stand with the feet square and to
advertently lose your balance backwards as though you were going to
land flat as a board. After your balance "goes," rather than taking a
step backwards to correct your inbalance, do a "backwards" forwards
roll. You can incorporate the above "point in front, then above, then
behind you" motion with this, too.
Now, there's also a valid line of thought that says that you should
never roll in a direction in which your toes are not lined up (ie if
your toes are pointing north, don't roll north-east, east, south-east,
south, etc). I'm still trying to reconcile that line of thought with
these exercises as I believe the ability to take ukemi from an
uncomfortable position (eg off-balance, body torqued, etc) is an
important aspect of being able to keep your body from being harmed.
Any thoughts on this?
Standard disclaimers of "please try these exercises with a qualified
instructor" apply here, too, of course.
> Katherine
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 17:03:46 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
>From: Karl Breuer
>
>Jun schrieb am 11.05.02:
snip
> > Jun
> >
>
>hm, I seem to have a few questions here.
>when you do a forward roll to the North are you still facing North after
>the roll? How do you get back?
>when you're standing feet squared facing North, how can you do a forward
>roll to the South? Best thing possible to me seems to be SW or SE - without
>taking kind of a jump.
>when you start from hanmi, do you roll over the same arm for the whole
>compass rose? e.g. right hanmi, right arm, roll to the SE? and does the
>roll to the South come after SE or SW, body-twisting-wise?
>no backward rolls in this exercise?
This sounds like a Chiba Sensei thing, the first time I saw anything like
this I was a bit confused myself, I mean i was watching these guys going
into a backward roll and somehow it became a forward roll at some point and
I still couldn't figure it out. The explanation is that, as you begin to
fall into a backward roll, extend an arm out behind you towards the floor
then turn your shoulders slightly so your chest begins to turn to face your
outstreched arm, once the hand makes contact it then leads you into a
'normal' forward roll.
There we go, clear as mud. Remind me when its euroseminar time and i'll
happily mess it up for you :o)
Mike Haft
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:14:43 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Katherine Derbyshire writes:
>> I waited for someone else to comment, but no one has. OK, I don't
>> geddit. Did you mean to say you roll forward out and then roll
>> *backwards* back? Because I don't see how you do two front rolls and
>> wind up back at the intersection without doing a 180 somewhere...
>
>That's the point of the exercise. Another one to try would be this:
>If you're facing in the 12:00 direction, do a forward roll in the 1:00
>direction (pretty easy, huh?). Then the 2:00 direction, then 3:00, and
>so forth around the circle. This version transitions from a "normal"
>forward roll to a "backward" forward roll more gradually, which may make
>it easier to see how to do the backward version.
>
>The backward version is hard to describe, but yes it is a completely
>normal forward roll, in that your body touches the mat in the same
>order: hand-arm-shoulder-back-hips-leg.
But you still don't pivot on your foot to do it? This starts to sound
like there's almost a back handspring involved to do the
hand/arm/shoulder sequence in this direction :-). I've also seen front
roll variations that start back (even arching back) and then a sudden
twist to take it forward, but am guessing that's not it either.
--Cindy, who hasn't done a back handspring in a LONG time and is sure that's
not the answer...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:58:33 -0500
From: Monica Bielke
Subject: Re: Ukemi, Interesting Study
Katherine explains:
> >...The backward version is hard to describe, but yes it is a
completely normal forward roll, in that your body touches the mat in the
same order: hand-arm-shoulder-back-hips-leg.
Cindy wonders:
> But you still don't pivot on your foot to do it? This starts to sound
like there's almost a back handspring involved to do the
hand/arm/shoulder sequence in this direction :-). I've also seen front
roll variations that start back (even arching back) and then a sudden
twist to take it forward, but am guessing that's not it either.
We learned these at the Ellis dojo. At first they were just as
confusing to watch as they are to describe on email! :-) Eventually I
got used to seeing them and the movement began to make sense. When I
felt confident enough in normal forward and backwards rolls, Sensei had
me to lean over to one side, reaching back with that arm, and do a
forward roll from that position. It worked. Without someone in your
dojo who already knows them (who you could watch), the gradual
transition using the clockface image that Katherine describes seems like
a good way to approach it.
Our drill was to stand at the corner of the mat area, so we had the
diagonal length of the mats to use. Standing w/ our backs to the mat,
we were supposed to keep our eyes on the upper corner of the room as
long as possible as we did them, coming up to ai hanmi stance after each
one.
Monica
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002