Aikido Kids
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002
20:00:42 -0400
From: Blake Moorcroft
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
On 13 May 2002 at 15:08, wrote:
> Would anyone be able to shed some light on this issue?
In our school, we teach three different programs for kids, depending
on age. The lowest level is for the Pee-Wee kids, ages 4-6. There's
very little Aikido as far as technique goes...the concept is more along
getting them used to the environment, teaching them basic things
like etiquette and discipline, as well as incorporating certain
movements into games and activities, especially rolls (kids just love
to roll).
From 7 and up, we've got regular children's classes. The emphasis
there is to include more techniques in training. There is still an
emphasis on play and enjoyment, but most of the techniques are
designed to be incorporated into play...we've also been pretty
successful in adjusting our teaching format so that children test in
stages or sections of tests, as opposed to adults who do an entire
test in one shot - the kids tend to retain the information longer this
way.
As for safety concerns, they exist regardless of whether they are kids
or adults...we don't do hard-ass techniques on little kids for sure, but
we also make sure that when we teach something that could cause
injuries (like breakfalls) that things are under control and proper
safety is enforced.
More later
Blake Moorcroft (Sei Bu)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:55:24 -0700
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
wrote:
> A question to those teaching children. At what age are you
> starting them and what skills are you teaching to them.
I assisted with kids classes for 4 yrs. Some started at 5 but I think
waiting to 6 or 7 for improved concentration is better. Bear in mind
also that you don't want to be doing *real* pins on children as it can
really mess up their immature joints/bones.
Class pattern for one hour:
warmups
lots of rolling practice (not just forward and backward but several
variations of each)
little bit of tai sabaki
couple of techniques
game that includes rolling/tai sabaki skills
It was stressed that we were working with a partner and (like in doing
the basic blend/tenkan) learning to see from a partner's point of view.
janet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:55:51 EDT
From: Anne Marie Giri
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
In a message dated 05/13/2002 3:10:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
<< A question to those teaching children. At what age are you starting
them and what skills are you teaching to them. Are young children able to
grasp the principals of aikido? >>
I don't teach aikido, but occaisionally I will assist our instructor in the
kids class. Our kids program starts at 5 or 6. I think they are able to
grasp the principles, but, yes, the older ones do grasp it more quickly.
They younger ones still can it just takes longer. As someone else
mentioned, my instructor will also break the requirements down and they go
through more ranks than the adults. They start with just learning hanmi,
sitting in seiza, bowing, then gradually progress up. The classes start with
basic warm-ups including the kids being drilled in hanmi (right and left),
irimi, tenkan, and tenchin movements, ikkyo exercise and rowing exercises,
and ukemi. And yeah, the loooooove to roll.
For the beginning classes, our instructor wants adults to help out and
basically help them focus and teach them some. (this helps with dealing with
their short attention spans --especially for the younger ones).
If they go through the whole program, they will grasp the principles. Once
they graduate the kids program, they can join the adults. I have trained
with the kids (usually teens by then) who have and they have incredibly solid
basics. They are really centered well and have great extension.
Anne Marie
<<Are the kids wearing hakama's and where would you get small enough ones for
them?>>
No hakama is for the kids. They get colored belts (us adults wear white).
<<The same goes for boken training. Is it taught, are any weapons taught?>>
My sensei will introduce weapons -- we start 'em out on jo -- in the kids
workshops. and the advanced kids get practice in class. He first teaches
them a 12 step kata so they can learn to control the jo, then once they learn
that he moves them into partner practice. (but that's not until they are
advanced).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 04:56:59 -0700
From: susan dalton
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
--- Janet Rosen wrote:
> wrote:
> > A question to those teaching children. At
> what age are you
> > starting them and what skills are you teaching to
> them.
>
> I assisted with kids classes for 4 yrs. Some started
> at 5 but I think
> waiting to 6 or 7 for improved concentration is
> better. Bear in mind
> also that you don't want to be doing *real* pins on
> children as it can
> really mess up their immature joints/bones.
>
Sorry I'm posting so late. My server was down, and I
had to wade through about 400 e-mails to get to this
one!
Both my kids started Aikido at 5. Ryan (16 1/2) is
still doing it. Kelsey at 9 is not. I see advantages
and disadvantages with starting so young.
Advantages: Aikido is "in" Ryan. He has beautiful
ukemi. It's part of him and he has no fear of
falling, never has, and I expect he never will.
Sensei can use him to teach new people jyuwaza because
he can fall out of anything--he's the indestructible
uke. He did not do Aikido for 5 years of his life.
He has been doing it for 11. The movements are
there--almost like instinct. He can write a little
kanji and has a much easier time with the Japanese
than I do.
The philosophy is fairly engrained also. All that
negative stuff in my head that I had to deal with
doesn't seem to bother him. Not so long ago I saw a
junior brown belt really resisting him and not
treating him with proper sempai/kohai respect. I kept
watching to see how Ryan would handle himself. When
it was his turn to be uke, he offered no more
resistance than normal. It never became a "pissing
contest" because Ryan knows how he's supposed to act
in the dojo and that's how he acts. (usually) This
attitude spills over into his life as well. He's the
most cooperative-spirited, noncompetitive person I
know. I like what the dojo has taught him. He has
wonderful friends at the dojo and he's comfortable
with adults.
2. Disadvantages: His body changed drasticallly and
what worked for him at 8 no longer works. He got into
some terrible habits because he was so little and
everybody else was so big. He also still sees himself
as small and does not demand the respect he deserves.
He'll let junior people correct him. Until he has more
presence he will not receive his black belt and I
think some of his lack of presence comes from his
experience of being a little kid in a big person's
dojo. In my opinion, he misunderstood some of the
concepts and he equates relaxed with loose and floppy.
The deeply learned habits are hard to change.
That said, I'm still glad he's chosen to practice all
these years. I hope my daughter will come back also,
but I'm trying not to push.
Susan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 20:03:32 -0500
From: Akemi Maniwa
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
I was an Aikido kid, even though I started at age 11, went through the kids
progam at my dojo and recently received my black belt, in Dec. My brother
also was an Aikido kid, but he quit after getting to 1st kyu. Starting
Aikido young could be a good thing, if the child is interested in doing a
martial art, but if the child wants to quit, let them, because now my
brother has an extreme dislike for all martial arts and refuses to take part
in anything that has to do with martial arts, except watch Bruce Lee/Jackie
Chan/Jet Li/etc. movies. It partially depends on the teacher, how they
teach and what is taught.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 18:48:05 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
Akemi Maniwa wrote:
> I was an Aikido kid, even though I started at age 11, went through the kids
> progam at my dojo and recently received my black belt, in Dec. My brother
> also was an Aikido kid, but he quit after getting to 1st kyu. Starting
> Aikido young could be a good thing, if the child is interested in doing a
> martial art, but if the child wants to quit, let them, because now my
> brother has an extreme dislike for all martial arts and refuses to take part
> in anything that has to do with martial arts,
I think this is a very important thing to remember whether we're
talking about martial arts or anything else a sibling does.
On the subject of aikido, I know of one child of two pretty prominent
instructors (now both 5th dan) who stayed away from martial arts all
together. He's one athletic guy, though, who was the high school
track star at his school. I believe he just didn't want to follow in
such grand footsteps. His step-sister, though, didn't mind too much
(maybe because she only has one "aikido" parent?) and still
occasionally practices aikido.
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:59:48 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jun Akiyama"
> On the subject of aikido, I know of one child of two pretty prominent
> instructors (now both 5th dan) who stayed away from martial arts all
> together. He's one athletic guy, though, who was the high school
> track star at his school. I believe he just didn't want to follow in
> such grand footsteps. His step-sister, though, didn't mind too much
> (maybe because she only has one "aikido" parent?) and still
> occasionally practices aikido.
>
> Jun
I relate a lot of stuff to music....anyway, one of the first and best bands I
ever played in, we had a phenomenol drummer. I didn't realize how good he was
until later, but he truly was excellent.
His father was a bandleader at the Palmer House house band in Chicago. My friend
the drummer has been given tips by Gene Krupa and many other world class
drummers. His father, I think, kind of pushed him into it or at least made it
the easiest way to go. He had lessons since he could hold a stick. It was second
nature to him. We used to practice at his house and we practiced hard.
After we became locally "famous" (at least a little) we all got big heads and
fought more and it wasn't long before we broke up the band. I hadn't seen that
drummer for some years. I ran into him then just before I was hitch hiking my
way out of Chicago on the 4th of July. I asked him how he was doing and all, if
he was playing. He told me he was then a mechanic at Montgomery Wards and he was
really happy. He sold his drums and never touched them and he absolutely didn't
miss them.
I was dumbstruck. A guy this talented and he didn't even want the "gift"....and
so many guys would have given their right arm (a pretty stupid trade...if you
think about it) to be as good as this guy on drums.
On the other hand...I found out, all by myself, when I was 12 that I NEEDED to
play guitar. I dreamt it and it stuck. I practiced and have played since that
time. I love playing guitar and have played in lots of bands, etc.
I am an allright guitarist..I can play what I want. I am no Joe Satriani, nor am
I many other varieties of guitarist, but I have my own style and mostly I can
copy other guitarists styles or play like them because of all the hours of
practice. I generally play as myself though.
Here is the thing. I sometimes run into people (specially on newsgroups) that
started late and that really, really LOVE guitar. They think about guitars, and
discuss various types and other equipment...and they ask "how do I play X? Does
anyone have the music (tab) to that song?" and it is sometimes a song that
really is standard chords and a person used to guitar can pick up just by ear
and play...no special tricks or anything. Sometimes they will be struggling with
things that are just second nature to me. Sometimes they come up with things
that I wouldn't think of doing...that I like. But mostly they are almost "too"
interested in guitar and definitely too distracted by the minutae that can
follow any hobby.
I mean there are folks talking about letting their guitar (this is acoustic only
as far as I have heard so far) sit on the stand right by the speakers, so it
will get a better sound by vibrating with the music they play on their
stereo....there are folks that will discuss all day the merits of one type of
capo over another. The thing is...it is all distraction, and they show
themselves to be preoccupied with things that basically have no importance
really. That if they practiced simply, played along with any and everything that
came on the radio, (that's how I learned), no matter what...tried to figure out
songs before they ended, or play the melody, or complement the song, using ANY
guitar that was playable...they would get better and better.
The main point is.....it takes the hours. There is no getting around it. It
simply takes the hours AND that the hours are not "torture" or a means to an
end, but simply more playing.
And that is the thing here too...
"Aikido kids", and people like my drummer friend, can fall into two
categories...
Those that would never have done it if their parents hadn't been involved. They
may not have it in their hearts and maybe they think it is nothing special.
Maybe they bind it to feelings of approval to their parents but they would never
BY NATURE have chosen to go that path on their own. AND..
Those that were just plain lucky. That love the practice. That connected to it
from the start.
This is probably much rarer.
And then there are the ones that connected since they were young but simply
because they were lucky enough to fall in love with an activity or art, at a
fairly young age.
And then there are the ones that found their beloved "thing" relatively late. I
was extremely lucky that I found music and guitar so early on, but a little
unlucky that I found aikido so late. I will never be as competent with aikido so
that it is second nature I don't think.
I would not have switched either...music has gotten me through times of no
aikido, better than aikido had gotten me through times of no music :-) but I
think life is funny...I understand now, and have even more patience for people
that are just loving learning guitar...because I am one of "those" as I try to
learn aikido.
I concentrate on the wrong things...and the main sign is, somehow it is "too"
important to me. That is what I bet confuses the aikido kids. They see all these
other folks making such a big deal about something you "just do". It must be
terribly irritating. Folks around them ask all sorts of things, or just don't
"get it" when it is as simple as walking to them I bet :-)
So the "aikido kids" probably mostly go out and find something they aren't that
"good" at and become one of us :-) mortals.
Just some thoughts,
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 07:25:42 -0500
From: Alice Bentley
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
Akemi Maniwa posted:
>... but if the child wants to quit, let them, because now my
>brother has an extreme dislike for all martial arts and refuses to take part
>in anything that has to do with martial arts, except watch Bruce Lee/Jackie
>Chan/Jet Li/etc. movies.
My (at that point 7 yr old) son took aikido for about a year.
Initially he enjoyed it quite a bit. We both enjoyed the fact that he
learned to fall (and fly!) so well, even though his form was so loose
and sloppy that he never got that feeling of firm connection that a
good technique can bring.
As he learned more of the basics, we also worked at correcting his
form. He had a LOT of problems with adjusting his movements to match
what the instructors were showing him. There were other factors
involved: it was about this time that I stopped coming into class at
all regularly, and the dojo was going through some personell changes
that resulted in a different teacher almost every class. But when it
was clear that he was loosing interest, I let him quit without much
of an argument.
Life is long, and he has plenty of time in the future to take it up
again. A reminder I use for myself as well, since right this moment
(and for most of the past year) there has just not been the time or
logistics for me to be able to continue myself.
Regarding that, I'd like to thank you all for being here, and
especially Jun for hosting this party. I'm sorry that I almost never
post, but I get both comfort and a real charge from being able to
vicariously participate. I know that a time will come when I'll be
able to get back on the mat, and the mental practice that I get from
the discussions here help keep me on track for that.
Really, thank you.
Alice Bentley
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 10:37:11 -0400
From: Paul Laxon
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
Well, since we're swapping stories about our kids (which I love to do)...
I had the exact opposite experience, it seems, than most people. My kids got
me involved in aikido, rather than the other way around.
We signed upmy oldest 2 sons (12 and 10) through a city program, and they
absolutely loved the 2 senseis who ran it. They wouldn't even let us sleep
in on the occasional Saturday morning and miss a class. After about a year
and a half I decided it would be fun to try, and the people in the adult
class were so welcoming that I was hooked. My sons even taught me how to
roll properly...so, almost 2 years later (over 3 for the 2 oldest) I have
just passed my 4th kyu test and look at aikido as a permanent part of my
life.
My youngest (5) got involved after bugging us for a year to join his
brothers. I thought he was too young, but sensei said it was okay, so he's
also involved.
There was a point when my 10 year old's interest seemed to wane, but I think
it might have been partly because I was trying too much to coach them and
correct things and I think that put him off, so I stopped.
I'm not sure whether it is a good idea to start so young as developing great
technique is concerned. The youngest is pretty sloppy and I'm not sure how
that will affect him as he gets older, but my oldest son seems to be getting
pretty good at the basic movements, and has asked about how old he has to be
to join the adult class, so we shall see. I've only known a couple of the
kids who have made the transition...
The main thing is they are enjoying themselves. The emphasis of the kid's
class is having fun while doing something physical.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 10:43:22 -0400
From: Patrick O'Reilly
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response
Hello.
I just joined the list yesterday. I am 43 and started Aikido in Sept.
and just took my 8th kyu test April 20th. I wish I had started 20 years ago.
I wasn't going to put my two cents worth in for a while but I caught the
discussion about starting Aikido as kids. Ever since 1996 (I studied Kempo
Karate then) I have thought (as a wanna be and attempted writer) that this
whole idea of a martial artist parent(s) getting there kid into the arts and
then when the kid gets older not wanting to do it was a great idea for a
movie. NOT a brawl movie but a human drama. I thought of it while watching a
martial arts movie featuring an Aikidoist. I thought what if that actor with
all his success in the arts and movies in real life had a son he had been
training but really wasn't interested in it, wanted to pursue a professional
sport let's say. What kind of story could be woven.
My opening scene was the father is sitting by himself in the dojo (which
is attached to the back of the house) in seiza . Then you hear a door open
and close. The boy, about 18, walks into the dojo. You can see by the
expression on the father's face he is not happy. Why? The son was supposed
to have been there taking his black belt test but skipped it because he
doesn't want to train any more but couldn't find a way to tell the father,
he wants to put his time and energy into the sport he loves . The conflict
has started. And of course some how the boy's training will help him later
in the movie.
Pat O.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 15:36:15 -0700
From: A J Garcia
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response
"James R. Acker" wrote:
> I said he was a great drummer, but I don't know drumming really
> well enough to know that. I mean as much music as I have played I
> used to only be able to tell when the drums were wrong... because
> .. I mean that maybe he was "Technically" great, but creatively
> maybe it was only tricks.
Well, there are lots of musicians who are technically
perfect...and often their performance seems flawless--which is
usually a clue that it's a technical perfection, not genuine
creativity. Real creativity is always a little sloppy, and
there's a sense that the person being creative is just enjoying
the heck out of it every minute, and not sweating the details
excessively. It's like being in a garage band. Some of the best
stuff happens when you're poor and have to innovate and be
creative.
Since we're talking about drummers, there's an old Eric Clapton
drum solo from one of his first albums as part of the group
Cream. I think it's the one with the cuts "Sunshine of Your
Love" and "Pilgrim" on it, I couldn't find an album index on the
'Net, so I'm going from memory. Anyway, it was an awesome solo,
and the best example I can think of how minor variations, little
segues, can make something like music really extraordinary. He
could've just hammered away; instead, he experimented and it was
great.
And to bring this closer on topic, before Jun gets exasperated...
<grin>
There are lots of technically "perfect" people in aikido, just
like in any martial art. The thing that differentiates a great
(or potentially great) aikido person from a mere technician is
their ability to learn the basics well and then play around with
them, feeling the variations in response and blending with them,
and enjoying every minute they do. (Like good riffs during a jam
session.) Sure, anyone can have an off day (or maybe some area
of the "basics" that needs polishing a little). Overall, though,
creativity has joy in it. And no matter how young you start
kids, at anything, some will still become technicians, because
whatever it is they're doing isn't in their heart; and some will
be creative, because it is.
> I do think that a great many of us could as easily express our
> creative artistic sides by any number of things. I think really it
> all comes down to a connection and intuitive understanding...
> Being the RIGHT kind of mechanic at Montgomery Wards could be
> artistic... intuitively knowing what is wrong with an engine, or
> able to hear the small timing changes as intimitely as I can hear
> the difference between A and E...there is that connection thing. I
> have experienced it also in things other than music and when you
> do the world is perfect....
Yep.
Al
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:41:16 +0300
From: "G.A.Miliaresis"
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response (full version)
Apologies to the list for getting this mail, ahem, twice -I accidentally
hit the send button before actually finishing the mail.
Jim wrote:
---<good stuff about music snipped>----
>Here is the thing. I sometimes run into people (specially on newsgroups)
>that started late and that really, really LOVE guitar. They think about
>guitars, and discuss various types and other equipment...and they ask "how
>do I play X? Does anyone have the music (tab) to that song?" and it is
>sometimes a song that really is standard chords and a person used to
>guitar can pick up just by ear and play...no special tricks or anything.
>Sometimes they will be struggling with things that are just second nature
>to me. Sometimes they come up with things that I wouldn't think of
>doing...that I like. But mostly they are almost "too" interested in guitar
>and definitely too distracted by the minutae that can follow any hobby.
>
>I mean there are folks talking about letting their guitar (this is
>acoustic only as far as I have heard so far) sit on the stand right by the
>speakers, so it will get a better sound by vibrating with the music they
>play on their stereo....there are folks that will discuss all day the
>merits of one type of capo over another. The thing is...it is all
>distraction, and they show themselves to be preoccupied with things that
>basically have no importance really. That if they practiced simply, played
>along with any and everything that came on the radio, (that's how I
>learned), no matter what...tried to figure out songs before they ended, or
>play the melody, or complement the song, using ANY guitar that was
>playable...they would get better and better.
---<more good stuff about music and aikiido snipped>---
I can't contribute much to the kids part of this thread -since I don't have
any and it's rather unlikely I will in the near future- but the above two
paragraphs struck a chord (no pun intended). The reason is that this
involvement with the art's (aikido's) minutiae has kept me -I believe- from
actually practicing aikido.
I first read about aikido when I was 10 and since then I started collecting
books, articles or whatever I could find from the -few- MA mags in Greece.
Then, in 1985 a friend started taking aikido lessons in the only club/dojo
in Athens and had the opportunity to see live senseis Chiba, Kanetsuka and
Terry Ezra as well as some of their Greek students. I used to talk with my
friend *about* aikido and the various aspects of the art, but I didn't
practice. Then, in 1987, the dojo I am now practicing at opened and -as a
very strange coincidence- it was in the block my -then- Shotokan dojo was
located (same building/different floor). I went and watched ppl training,
talked with the sensei but didn't practice. Four years later, a very good
friend started practicing there, I went again, talked with the sensei
again, watched classes again but didn't practice. All that until last year
when I actually began practicing just like that, without an outside reason
or a friend taking classes etc.
One lesson from this -rather banal- story is that you start when you start.
OK, I know that although for the life of me, I can't really understand
why. The second lesson, and one that Jim's mail made me think of, was that
I didn't practice *because* I've been reading about aikido, thinking about
aikido, watching aikido videos (the few I could get my hands on). Being
more on the cerebral/intellectual side I seemed to be comfortable from
*thinking* aikido than *doing* aikido. Has this -or something similar-
happened to anyone else around here?
Gri
PS
The upside of all this was that I hadn't the usual nomenclature problem
most people have and that I can grasp various concepts faster than most
dojomates. Of course my aikido still sucks worse than any 25 y/o's who's
been actually practicing while I was "studying" aikido from books :-(
PPS
Having studied (for real <g>) music for some years I can see how you can
see parallels between music and aikido. It's also a great teaching aid AFAICT...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:15:55 +0100
From: Mike Cummins
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids?
wrote:
> At what age are you starting them and what skills are you teaching
> to them.
>
We start them at 7 with breakfalls, Ikkyo, Shihonage, Iriminage (kokyunage) etc.
We don't let them practice locks until 12 - (although the main danger is during
growth
spurts) and then under close supervision.
We teach some weapons - mainly kata and techniques from the long and short end
of the
jo. Bokken suburi, sword kata (with bokken). We have a couple of short bokken
for
the smaller kids.
I think learning to breakfall is the most important thing you can teach them at
that age
as they are falling a lot. My son got hit a glancing blow by a van overtaking
on the
wrong side of the road - I think the Aikido stopped him being more seriously
hurt -
he rolled after flying about 10 ft.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:37:41 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response (full version)
> One lesson from this -rather banal- story is that you start when you
start.
> OK, I know that although for the life of me, I can't really understand
> why. The second lesson, and one that Jim's mail made me think of, was
that
> I didn't practice *because* I've been reading about aikido, thinking
about
> aikido, watching aikido videos (the few I could get my hands on).
Being
> more on the cerebral/intellectual side I seemed to be comfortable from
> *thinking* aikido than *doing* aikido. Has this -or something similar-
> happened to anyone else around here?
>
Similar things happen with people in all sorts of creative pursuits.
People talk about wanting to write, but never actually put words on the
page. People talk about learning how to play instruments, but never
actually take lessons. People spend so many hours arguing about minutiae
that it cuts into their time to actually do the activity.
Doing this kind of thing seems to serve all sorts of purposes, some
benign, some not so benign. It can be a way to "warm up" and get
yourself mentally prepared for the activity. That's fine. But it can
also become a way to procrastinate and avoid the risk of trying
something new. Being a beginner at anything is hard: learning new things
is difficult and doing things badly is hard on the ego. Reading is much
easier and can allow a person to believe that they've developed some
expertise. But then actually getting on the mat (or writing, or
painting, or whatever) becomes even riskier because the "head knowledge"
gained from reading doesn't necessarily translate into a better forward
roll or a more effective kokyu nage.
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:41:23 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: offmat ukemi was:Re: Aikido Kids?
>From: Mike Cummins
>I think learning to breakfall is the most important thing you can teach
>them at that age
>as they are falling a lot. My son got hit a glancing blow by a van
>overtaking on the
>wrong side of the road - I think the Aikido stopped him being more
>seriously hurt -
>he rolled after flying about 10 ft.
>
>Mike
I think ukemi is a damned useful skill to have in many situations, not just
on the mat, just as your example shows above.
Though I think I'd much rather roll than breakfall on a hard pavement like
surface (potential for elbows being really hurt, ouch! not ot mention other
bits of you).
I can think of twice when ukemi skills have come in useful off the mat, both
involved alcohol as it happens, the first one, I was out celebrating the
fact that it was wednesday night IIRC, and was going down some steps in the
subway to cross the road, but someone had left an empty bottle on its side
on a step about half way down, I ended up falling forward and into a forward
roll, if I hadn't I could've broken the fall with my face.
The second time (I like this story), I was sitting in a bar in Plymouth with
someone else I trained with at the time just talking a bit about ki, and
one-points etc, and someone kicked the legs of my stool out from under me
(they were basically trying to start a fight and thought they'd pcik on the
guy with the glasses who looked a bit of a pushover I suppose), as I fell
downwards I went into a backward roll and came up again still holding my
pint without having spilled a drop :o)
Mike Haft
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:00:38 +0000
From: Mike ?
Subject: Re: offmat ukemi was:Re: Aikido Kids?
>From: Katherine Derbyshire
>Finish the story! What happened next! :-)
Hehe, well, they kicked it on the way out (there were three of them), and
then stood outside waiting for me to see if I was going to go out after
them.
Me and Rob decided not ot bother at first, but then went out to have a word.
Here would be a good time to mention that Rob is a very large, very strong,
quite nutty ex-squaddy, and could've hospitalised all three of these guys by
himself with one hand tied behind his back.
We started talking and they seemed to decide not to bother in the end, I
think it was the combination of me staring nastily at them and Rob standing
behind me (towering over me as well, he's well over six foot tall) telling
them that they really shouldn't piss me off 'cos they'd regret it (I
out-rank Rob) that convinced them to give up and go home.
Mike Haft
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:45:18 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: More about aikido kids
Being a beginner at anything is hard: learning new things
> is difficult and doing things badly is hard on the ego.
Just quick comment on my earlier note. Maybe one of the reasons why
kids learn things (aikido, languages, etc.) faster is that they don't
have as much ego wrapped up in "success" or "competence?" Consider how
many completely new things an average 10 year old encounters in a given
week. Now how many completely new things do you encounter in a given
week?
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:10:29 +0200
From: Christian Reiniger
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response (full version)
On Monday 2002-05-20 14:41, G.A.Miliaresis wrote:
> I first read about aikido when I was 10 and since then I started
> collecting books, articles or whatever I could find from the -few- MA
> mags in Greece. Then, in 1985 a friend started taking aikido lessons in
[...]
> classes again but didn't practice. All that until last year when I
> actually began practicing just like that, without an outside reason or
> a friend taking classes etc.
>
> One lesson from this -rather banal- story is that you start when you
> start. OK, I know that although for the life of me, I can't really
> understand why. The second lesson, and one that Jim's mail made me
> think of, was that I didn't practice *because* I've been reading about
> aikido, thinking about aikido, watching aikido videos (the few I could
> get my hands on). Being more on the cerebral/intellectual side I seemed
> to be comfortable from *thinking* aikido than *doing* aikido. Has this
> -or something similar- happened to anyone else around here?
Something similar, yes. I didn't really spend any time thinking about
aikido until when I started at the local dojo last november, but then I
almost immediately roamed the various aikido websites, subscribed to this
list, read many threads on aikiweb, aikidojournal and budoforum etc. I
spent much more time thinking about aikido than doing it. At the
beginning that was ok - there was much "beginning theory" to be learned,
and with training twice a week the theory/practice ration could be
considered "normal" for someone from the academic area :)
But recently I only could train about once a week, sometimes even less. I
still read much about aikido, partly to "make up for the missing
training". Reading slowly became more boring though until during the past
days I no longer thought "cool, 60 more aikido-l mails to read" but
"Sigh, 60 more mails to work through".
I wasn't actually consciously aware of this change until I read some mails
on this list containing advice like "just *do* it, just train" and "don't
worry about these concepts - make sure you get the basics first" during
the past few days.
Well, with a bit of luck I can make it to the dojo again tonight :)
> The upside of all this was that I hadn't the usual nomenclature problem
> most people have and that I can grasp various concepts faster than most
Agreed. Doesn't help that much though when that d*mn "beginner technique"
ikkajo again refuses to work :)
--
Christian Reiniger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:32:01 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response (full version)
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
> Similar things happen with people in all sorts of creative pursuits.
> People talk about wanting to write, but never actually put words on the
> page. People talk about learning how to play instruments, but never
> actually take lessons. People spend so many hours arguing about minutiae
> that it cuts into their time to actually do the activity.
>
> Doing this kind of thing seems to serve all sorts of purposes, some
> benign, some not so benign. It can be a way to "warm up" and get
> yourself mentally prepared for the activity. That's fine. But it can
> also become a way to procrastinate and avoid the risk of trying
> something new.
This resonates with the "armchair budoka" thought that I had in my
previous post...
> Being a beginner at anything is hard: learning new things is
> difficult and doing things badly is hard on the ego. Reading is much
> easier and can allow a person to believe that they've developed some
> expertise. But then actually getting on the mat (or writing, or
> painting, or whatever) becomes even riskier because the "head
> knowledge" gained from reading doesn't necessarily translate into a
> better forward roll or a more effective kokyu nage.
Amen. Unless you're willing to get out there and fail, you're never
going to learn anything past the "concepts." And although the
concepts themselves are very important, I think there's much more to
aikido than "understanding them." The physical process of doing them
(or, rather, _trying_ to do them and failing 1000+ times) is, for me,
the most important.
Frankly, I'm much, much more impressed by people who are on the mat,
day after day, who haven't progressed physically much than I am by
those who hardly ever get on the mat but pontificate quite nicely off
the mat.
Katherine added:
> Just quick comment on my earlier note. Maybe one of the reasons why
> kids learn things (aikido, languages, etc.) faster is that they
> don't have as much ego wrapped up in "success" or "competence?"
> Consider how many completely new things an average 10 year old
> encounters in a given week. Now how many completely new things do
> you encounter in a given week?
Perhaps more imporantly, how often do they make mistakes and how
wrapped up do they get in such?
In aikido, how many of us get annoyed and even angry when someone
reverses our technique? I was leading our ukemi class on kaeshiwaza
about a week ago and saw such signs as speeding up to make the
reversal happen, over-muscling as uke to make sure the reversal didn't
happen, and the escalation of "non-aikido" principles (like
over-muscling, speeding up, aggression).
I try to practice on the mat with the feeling that if my technique
didn't work, then that's fine; that's why I'm there on the mat -- to
work on what I need to work on, not work on what I can already do
pretty well. I'd rather be practicing whatever principles I'm working
on that day and work on the subtle edge of success and failure rather
than use "non-aikido" principles such as those outlined above to "get
the job done."
> Katherine
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:23:48 -0700
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response (full version)
Jun Akiyama writes:
>In aikido, how many of us get annoyed and even angry when someone
>reverses our technique?
Oh, they're fun. I do get a little frustrated because I don't always
know the reversal to reverse their reverse. Some of the guys play at
it and go back and forth and it looks like fun. It's also fun when
you see the gleam in your uke's eyes and you know you're going to have
to do it without a slip, or he'll pull a reversal...
--Cindy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:45:02 -0700
From: jake williams
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response
This message brought this to mind. When I first
started to train, I was convinced that everyone should
take Aikido, and I set out to convince everyone I knew
to come train with me. After a few years, I had seen
many people come on the mat all gung ho about
training, find out what is really involved, and then
leave after a month. Many of these people have read
lots of books and seen videos and such, and they want
to talk about Aikido Philosophy, but it seems that
when they have to practice rolling for the first few
classes, they get dissapointed. Who knows why they
leave? Now I don't talk about it at all with non
Aikido people if I can help it, and I figure that if
someone wants to train, they will.
Jake
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:05:10 -0400
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Aikido Kids? My rambling response (full version)
Howdy,
> Unless you're willing to get out there and fail,
> you're never going to learn anything past the
> "concepts." And although the concepts themselves
> are very important, I think there's much more to
> aikido than "understanding them."
You may be able to talk your way out of an argument
or two, but you won't be able to perform all that
well on the mat...or on the street.
> The physical process of doing them (or, rather,
> _trying_ to do them
Or just trying nort to suck at them.
> and failing 1000+ times) is, for me, the most
> important.
Ditto.
> Frankly, I'm much, much more impressed by people
> who are on the mat, day after day, who haven't
> progressed physically much
Why, thank you!
> than I am by those who hardly ever get on the
> mat but pontificate quite nicely off the mat.
Or on-list (I shudder to think that this even happens
here...perish the thought).
> In aikido, how many of us get annoyed and even
> angry when someone reverses our technique?
It depends on how much ego you have invested.
Thankfully, my techniques stink--so I'm happy when
they *do* work.
> I try to practice on the mat with the feeling that
> if my technique didn't work, then that's fine;
> that's why I'm there on the mat -- to work on what
> I need to work on, not work on what I can already
> do pretty well.
A sound approach.
> I'd rather be practicing whatever principles I'm
> working on that day and work on the subtle edge
> of success and failure rather than use "non-aikido"
> principles such as those outlined above to "get
> the job done."
Yes, most of us are masters of non-Aikido techniques
--why not try and do something else for a cchange?
Peace,
JCS
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002