Kotegaeshi
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:09:14
-0700
From: Chuck Clark
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
At 03:47 PM 4/18/2002 -0700, Craig wrote:
> curious question, in what specific technical way do you go about achieving
>the lock of the wrist joint ?
>
>in our case, my experience has been that much of the locking of the wrist
>comes from using the little finger and ring finger with the same focus as
>when one is holding a sword. That together with using proper spacing
>(footwork) to insure no slack in the arm (esp. forearm) to immobilize wrist
>and allow one to immediately unbalance uke with a small bit of gentle
>movement even while the joints continue to bend in a natural direction.
>
>hope that's not too vague.
Just so... as the forearm/wrist turns towards uke (for whatever reason) we
stay connected and just follow the wrist as it turns and then continue the
wrist into the lock (achieving kime or "decisive point of the lock)
continuing the kuzushi. No pain unless uke tries to force against it or go
away from it. The natural dynamic of the movement locks uke's system. Uke
must go with the only avenue of escape possible into whatever fall is
necessary.
Regards,
C. Clark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:05:16 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
Basically what Chris and Jun and others said. But for extra info
Wrist is tekube which translates into hand neck.
Ruth Mc William wrote:
>Shock horror - an on-topic post folks!
>
>Sensei translated kotegaeshi as "small hand turn" at the Tuesday class. I'd
always heard it
>translated as "small turn of the wrist" before, but what Sensei said made more
sense from a
>doing-the-technique perspective. While we could identify "te" as "hand", we
weren't sure of the
>rest of the translation, or what the Japanese for "wrist" actually is. Sensei
thinks it's something
>like a combination of the words for "hand" and "neck", the wrist being the neck
of the hand...
>
>Could any of the Japanese-speaking Listka enlighten me?
>
>Ruth (still keen to learn lots of new things)
>
>(apologies if this has been answered before - the boss won't give me time to go
digging through
>the archives!)
Dr. Peter H. Rehse High Throughput Factory Research Scientist
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:49:11 +0100
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
Thanks everyone who replied - it was (mostly) very helpful!
Jun Akiyama wrote:
>When I do kotegaeshi, I don't focus on "turning back the hand" as some
>people do but more think about taking uke's balance through
>manipulation of their forearm. But that could just be me.
That's exactly what we were working on at the Tuesday class! It was very very
difficult... I'm
trying to learn how to do it by this method instead of the crunch-the-hand-up
painful method. If
somebody stronger than me locks their wrist and hand straight I can't turn
either of them so
there must be another way. A few people have also said that pain isn't a good
method of
throwing people as some attackers won't feel it, if they're high on adrenalin /
drugs / whatever.
If I'm doing a Kotegaeshi throw without turning the wrist / hand, does it then
become a
Tenchinage - like balance break instead? The two seem very close, so how do I
know which
technique I'm doing?
Ruth (the bottomless pit of questions!)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:13:18 +0100
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Kotegaeshi (translation)
I posted once but i seems to have vanished... Ruth Tekubi is the
word your sensei was thinking of when he mentioned the neck of the
hand,
Kubi= neck. te = Hand Kubi= neckJust to spell it out.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:30:59 -0400
From: Charles Yeomans
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
At 10:49 AM +0100 4/19/2002, Ruth Mc William wrote:
>
>Jun Akiyama wrote:
> >When I do kotegaeshi, I don't focus on "turning back the hand" as some
> >people do but more think about taking uke's balance through
> >manipulation of their forearm. But that could just be me.
>
>That's exactly what we were working on at the Tuesday class! It was
>very very difficult... I'm
>trying to learn how to do it by this method instead of the
>crunch-the-hand-up painful method. If
>somebody stronger than me locks their wrist and hand straight I
>can't turn either of them so
>there must be another way. A few people have also said that pain
>isn't a good method of
>throwing people as some attackers won't feel it, if they're high on
>adrenalin / drugs / whatever.
>
>If I'm doing a Kotegaeshi throw without turning the wrist / hand,
>does it then become a
>Tenchinage - like balance break instead? The two seem very close, so
>how do I know which
>technique I'm doing?
You can do kotegaeshi by gripping the wrist below the hand. Think
about turning the forearm; if you get it right, uke's arm should be
locked in a way that more or less prevents him from standing up
straight.
As with most aikido techniques, though, the way to learn and the
technique is to focus on the movement of your whole body. Using
kotegaeshi as an example, what most people do to learn the technique
is to stand immobile while attempting to turn the wrist. What they
should be doing is to hold the kotegaeshi grip immobile (at nage's
center), and then see how moving one's body causes the throw to
happen or not happen.
If you're practicing with someone who insists on locking his hand and
wrist, you can somewhat abandon the official kotegaeshi grip by
letting your thumb drop down to the base of the hand. Take your
other hand and cover uke's fist with it. Now apply kotegaeshi; you
can help this by squeezing uke's fingers in the direction he wants
them to go.
Charles Yeomans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:37:00 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
Chuck said:
> Definitely not just Jun...
>
> The Jiyushinkai always emphasizes kuzushi rather than twisting the wrist. I
lock the wrist joint but do not twist or hyper flex it to make the technique.
Katherine said:
>Add another "me too."
I'd agree with this also. However I'd argue that kote gaeshi is primarily a
hip movement, typically like the hip movement in katate hachi no ji gaeshi.
(And this might be saying the same thing in a different way.)
>My teacher emphasizes that if you twist the wrist without taking uke's balance,
you're likely to both leave yourself open and make uke mad. Not a good
combination.
While this is true, I teach people to do the wrist rotation by having uke
stick a fist out and having nage put them down with no kuzushi. If you move
correctly from the hips this is possible against even quite strong ukes, and
it gets beyond the tendency of people to not adequately control uke's
hand/arm/body.
It's almost like there are two techniques. On the one hand, you can throw
nicely holding uke's forearm and the kote gaeshi hip movement and footwork,
and I'd call it kote gaeshi, even though there is no involvement of the
kote. On the other, you can throw just with uke's hand (e.g. eri tori) and
while it may not be an elegant way to do it, it is surely still kote gaeshi.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:06:50 -0700
From: Jim Baker
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
Jun Akiyama wrote:
>..I personally don't translate "kote" as "wrist" but more as "forearm."... When
I do kotegaeshi, I don't focus on "turning back the hand" as some people do but
more think about taking uke's balance through manipulation of their forearm.
But that could just be me.<
Jun is correct, or, more accurately, I agree with him :)
I don't stress the hand or wrist in Kotegaeshi but rather somewhere along
the Kote gauntlet. You can also do it using the upper arm. If you use the
shoulder, it gets a different name. Keep going and it becomes Ikkyo on
the other side, but that's a hakama of a different color.
JIM, the wolves see continua beneath my window in Norfolk
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:23:42 -0400
From: John Seavitt
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
Jun Akiyama wondered:
>(Don't kendo people, more or less, use the "kote" target designation
>as anywhere on the kote armor -- ie the forearm?)
Not exactly. Strikes to kote should be on the top of the wrist joint, or very
slightly above it on the forearm. Judges won't reliably give points for
drifting out further on the forearm (it makes the strike look
accidental/shoddy),
even though it's still covered by the gauntlet.
John
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:01:34 -0700
From: Chuck Clark
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
At 06:37 AM 4/19/2002 -0700, Alan wrote:
>While this is true, I teach people to do the wrist rotation by having uke
>stick a fist out and having nage put them down with no kuzushi. If you move
>correctly from the hips this is possible against even quite strong ukes, and
>it gets beyond the tendency of people to not adequately control uke's
>hand/arm/body.
In my opinion, if uke is falling down without some huge gorilla picking
them up and dumping them, there is kuzushi involved. You may not be calling
something that is going on kuzushi, but it is.
Regards,
C. Clark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:08:44 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
> While this is true, I teach people to do the wrist rotation by having uke
> stick a fist out and having nage put them down with no kuzushi. If you move
> correctly from the hips this is possible against even quite strong ukes, and
> it gets beyond the tendency of people to not adequately control uke's
> hand/arm/body.
Hmmm.... I think we're using the same words in different ways here. If
you "put uke down by moving correctly from the hips" then why haven't
you achieved kuzushi?
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:32:12 -0700
From: David Monahan-Lesseps
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
>From: "Drysdale, Alan E." 7:00 -0400
>>It's almost like there are two techniques. On the one hand, you can throw
>nicely holding uke's forearm and the kote gaeshi hip movement and footwork,
>and I'd call it kote gaeshi, even though there is no involvement of the
>kote. On the other, you can throw just with uke's hand (e.g. eri tori) and
>while it may not be an elegant way to do it, it is surely still kote
>gaeshi.
>
>Alan
My instructor likes to emphasize two different approaches to kotegaeshi,
similar to what you describe. He describes them as big and small.
The big one is like what Jun, et al are describing. When Sensei
demonstrates this, he points out that it has a very kokyunage type of feel,
and is usually a big motion that can send uke flying very high and far.
Also, there is very little turning of the actual wrist. In some ways the
technique is similar to sumi otoshi.
The small way keeps the hand below the hara, and is executed by turning
the wrist with the hip, resulting in quite a bit of turning of the wrist
(but also involves uke's elbow, shoulder, and hara, so I would not say there
is no kuzushi.) In this approach, uke makes quite a direct line to the mat.
Sensei often makes a point of demonstrating that kotegaeshi can be done
both ways, and will often tell us to play with both versions to get the feel
for them.
Dave M-L
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:47:36 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
David Monahan-Lesseps wrote:
> My instructor likes to emphasize two different approaches to kotegaeshi,
> similar to what you describe. He describes them as big and small.
> The big one is like what Jun, et al are describing. When Sensei
> demonstrates this, he points out that it has a very kokyunage type of feel,
> and is usually a big motion that can send uke flying very high and far.
Actually, personally I pretty much never send uke into a breakfall for
kotegaeshi...
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:46:20 -0600
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
David Monahan-Lesseps wrote:
> >From: Jun Akiyama
> >Actually, personally I pretty much never send uke into a breakfall for
> >kotegaeshi...
>
> Why is that?
These days, I more enjoy looking for the subtle balance breaks and
such. When I start to "crank" on the kotegaeshi, I find that my
kotegaeshi doesn't work as well with larger and, especially, more
experienced people and also that I lose this feeling of looking for
the subtle balance breaks and such.
In other words, my "breakfall" kotegaeshi doesn't work. Hmph.
(This isn't to say, of course, that my "non-breakfall" kotegaeshi do
work...)
Jun
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 21:57:24 +0000
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Kotegaeshi (translation)
>From: David Monahan-Lesseps
>My instructor likes to emphasize two different approaches to kotegaeshi,
>similar to what you describe.
snip
> Sensei often makes a point of demonstrating that kotegaeshi can be done
>both ways, and will often tell us to play with both versions to get the
>feel
>for them.
>Dave M-L
this made me smile :o)
Often the question gets asked of my teacher in regards to a technique:
"Sensei, is it this, or this way that we're meant to do it?"
The answer is usually: "Yes"
Often a bit of head scratching occurs and it is later explained that if you
can think of more than one way of doing it, and you are in keeping with the
principles of Aikido, then both are right and you should practise both ways.
Personally I like that, it gives a lot of room to manouver in a grading
<grin>
:And what was that last technique Mike?
:Ikkyo Sensei.
:Really?
:Yes Sensei.
Unfortunately this usually comes next...
:Well if it is ikkyo then you won't mind doing it again so we can have a
closer look, will you?
:No Sensei, <muttering under breath> damn-damn-damn...&c
Mike Haft
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:10:56 -0500
From: Emily
Subject: Re: Koetgaeshi (translation)
<delurk>
>These days, I more enjoy looking for the subtle balance breaks and
>such. When I start to "crank" on the kotegaeshi, I find that my
>kotegaeshi doesn't work as well with larger and, especially, more
>experienced people and also that I lose this feeling of looking for
>the subtle balance breaks and such.
>In other words, my "breakfall" kotegaeshi doesn't work. Hmph.
Tis my meagre cross-trained experience that both CAN work.
The big floopy breakfall is, in my mind, the more artificial construction
unless between two practicioners very conditioned to it.
Chuck can do the same technique (kotegaishe) twice and I can take two ukemi
for it- one the sit-down crumpled roll, the other the big floopy whappy fall.
One hurts my wrist and the other my body.
I tend to pick wrist. Bending is relatively good for it, and impact is
decidedly BAD for the rest of me.
Needless to say, I observe "ukemi customs" of other styles very closely
when cross-training.
I prefer the "little" kotegaishe because that's what I've done most of, and
the other seems too big unless I am working with Martin.. in which case I
do big motions to get him to do small ones.. being in a dojo where everyone
is BIGGER than me has had a profound effect on my technique.
Right, Alan? ;-)
Hi everybody! missed ya! not back yet, just visiting-
mle
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 21:57:30 EDT
From: "(Alex Rusinko)"
Subject: Re: Question of the day...
Don
I have always said everything is made up of three. Doing the technique,
Having it done to you, Teaching it to someone else. I feel you only pick up
the small parts that you miss yourself when you teach it to another. But to
get to that place you have to know it well enough to feel the confidence
inside you to teach it. That you get from the physical part of feeling the
technique both as Uke and as Nage. Good Question Bartman.
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:10:25 +0100
From: Ruth Mc William
Subject: Kotegaeshi (Ukemi) (was Re: Kotegaeshi (translation))
Emily wrote:
>Chuck can do the same technique (kotegaishe) twice and I can take two ukemi
>for it- one the sit-down crumpled roll, the other the big floopy whappy fall.
>One hurts my wrist and the other my body.
That's been my experience also, and I was told at 2nd kyu that I should always
try to do the big
fall as the smaller roll was considered to be a "junior grade ukemi".
Unfortunately, if nage doesn't
put enough energy into the throw and you end up throwing yourself (at the slow
speed they are
doing the technique...urgh...) into a big breakfall, it hurts worse than
anything when you hit the
floor. These days I play safe and only do the big breakfall if nage puts enough
energy in to make
me do it!
>whose body seems to be recovering from the latest batch of owies and hopes
>to see everyone at Andy's!!! in.. Germany!!!
Looking forward to seeing you there! Andy's got a great programme lined up (lots
of Aikido) :-)
Ruth
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:30:03 -0400
From: "Drysdale, Alan E."
Subject: Re: Koetgaeshi (translation)
Emily said:
>being in a dojo where everyone is BIGGER than me has had a profound effect on
my technique.
>Right, Alan? ;-)
Right mle. And I've learned a lot watching Anita dealing with an even
larger disparity.
>Hi everybody! missed ya! not back yet, just visiting-
Hi.
>While this is true, I teach people to do the wrist rotation by having uke
>stick a fist out and having nage put them down with no kuzushi. If you move
>correctly from the hips this is possible against even quite strong ukes, and
>it gets beyond the tendency of people to not adequately control uke's
>hand/arm/body.
Chuck and Katherine both chastized me.
>In my opinion, if uke is falling down without some huge gorilla picking them up
and dumping them, there is kuzushi involved. You may not be calling something
that is going on kuzushi, but it is.
I plead guilty to the lesser charge of imprecision :-) I meant to say
without first getting kuzushi as is the usual and preferred way to do kote
gaeshi. Of course you are both correct in that if I don't get kuzushi at
some point uke ain't going anywhere, because I am not, as Emily pointed out,
a huge gorilla.
Alan
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002