Painless Nikkyo
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 06:36:03 -0700
From: Giles Chamberlin
Subject: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
Larry was describing his styles pain free nikkyo:
>In other words, if someone says "Do a Nikkyo to me" and I set their
>hand/arm up in the proper position for it but it is nothing more than
>an isolated application of a skeletal lock on a resistant subject, it
>can be very difficult to do it without resulting pain. But as the
>result of an attack and a proper "Aiki" response, it is fairly easy
>to apply without any pain at all.
This sounds fascinating. Are you saying that, with a resisting uke in
"I know what's happening" mode, pain free nikkyo is difficult, but
within the flow of a full technique that is what you pursue? In which
case what's taking uke down? Is it a skeletal lock and off balancing
them or something else?
I think I can see ways where that might work in nikkyo, but I have
real trouble seeing how sankyo works in that vein. Yonkyo? This is
not a criticism, just the rattling of someone seeing a glimpse of a
whole other approach to the techniques.
Does this "compassionate" approach extend elsewhere. Koshi nage onto
a concrete surface, judo style, hurts. Do you have a gentler
approach? I've always considered the benevolence of aikido to be of
the form "I told you that you didn't want to do that", rather than the
kinder "let me look after you" approach that you seem to be
describing.
So Larry, please pontificate some more!
--
Giles Chamberlin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:03:43 -0400
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
Giles Chamberlin wrote:
>I've always considered the benevolence of aikido to be of
>the form "I told you that you didn't want to do that"
By that reasoning, I am benevolent when I blow someone's head off with my
12 gauge shotgun:
"Don't move or I'll shoot!"
<furtive movement>
<BLAMMM!>
"I told him not to move."
>rather than the kinder "let me look after you" approach that you seem to be
>describing.
I was taught early on that the ideal Aikido is one in which you protect
your attacker while protecting yourself. In theory, the 300lb. PCP crazed
gangbanger with the machete should be treated just the same as your 4 year
old nephew who has picked up a pair of scissors. Perhaps you would smash
your nephew's head into the concrete, but his mother is going to be most
upset with you.
Granted, I am not quite at that level yet, but the ideal is there to aspire
toward.
Jake
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:43:18 -0400
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
From: "Giles Chamberlin"
> This sounds fascinating. Are you saying that, with a resisting uke in
> "I know what's happening" mode, pain free nikkyo is difficult, but
> within the flow of a full technique that is what you pursue? In which
> case what's taking uke down? Is it a skeletal lock and off balancing
> them or something else?
Off balancing, and the inability to regain balance thanks to the lock.
>
> I think I can see ways where that might work in nikkyo, but I have
> real trouble seeing how sankyo works in that vein. Yonkyo? This is
> not a criticism, just the rattling of someone seeing a glimpse of a
> whole other approach to the techniques.
I don't study Larry's style, but I've experienced pain-free versions of
all three techniques. In the pain-free versions, nage seems to have more
control over my center, while in the painful versions nage seems to be
focused on the point of contact. The painful versions are generally
easier to resist: the source of the pain gives me something to "push"
against. The threat of pain also makes me more ornery, I suspect.
>
> Does this "compassionate" approach extend elsewhere.
Sure. Why not?
Koshi nage onto
> a concrete surface, judo style, hurts. Do you have a gentler
> approach? I've always considered the benevolence of aikido to be of
> the form "I told you that you didn't want to do that", rather than the
> kinder "let me look after you" approach that you seem to be
> describing.
My teacher once did a demo in which he threw the newest person in the
class--a nearly complete beginner-- into a koshi nage breakfall (on the
mat, not on concrete!). His point being that the "let me look after you"
approach is entirely possible. If uke feels protected, then he is more
able to learn. In a dojo situation, that means he is more able to pay
attention to the fine points of the technique rather than survival. In a
real situation, a protected uke is more able to decide that maybe he
doesn't need to be attacking you after all.
Katherine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:58:56 -0700
From: Giles Chamberlin
Subject: Re: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
Jake wrote:
>By that reasoning, I am benevolent when I blow someone's head off with
>my 12 gauge shotgun:
>"Don't move or I'll shoot!" <furtive movement>
><BLAMMM!>
>"I told him not to move."
Fair cop guv. But I still think I know what I meant.
>I was taught early on that the ideal Aikido is one in which you protect
>your attacker while protecting yourself.
Depends on what you mean by Aikido I suppose. And I'm not meaning to
be nasty , just having trouble with words today. But a total
protection of the attacker does seem at odds with O Sensei's
reputation as a very scary person. But then he also had a reputation
for being able to throw you without you feeling any great discomfort,
just bemusement.
>In theory, the 300lb. PCP crazed gangbanger with the machete should
>be treated just the same as your 4 year old nephew who has picked up
>a pair of scissors.
I think I'm seeing a difference between the locking techniques and the
projection techniques. I consider nikkyo a tool along the lines of
your 12 gauge:
<BLAMM>
"That was a silly thing to do wasn't it?"
So if I was in total control of both 4 year old and machete wielder I
wouldn't need to use this painful technique and could just be gentle
with both. It's probably my background showing through - hence my
interest in Larry's description of a kinder approach to nikkyo.
For what it's worth in comparison - the jujutsu style I train in tends
to use locking techniques more than throws. What throws there are
tend to end with uke going straight down. The locks go straight down
too. At the aikido class where I train, there is a higher proportion
of time spent on throws, and uke gets a "kinder" projection from which
he can roll out. So maybe it is just my background. Or my vicious side.
--
Giles Chamberlin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:52:37 -0700
From: susan dalton
Subject: Re: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
--- Katherine Derbyshirewrote:
...I've experienced
> pain-free versions of
> all three techniques. In the pain-free versions,
> nage seems to have more
> control over my center, while in the painful
> versions nage seems to be
> focused on the point of contact. The painful
> versions are generally
> easier to resist: the source of the pain gives me
> something to "push"
> against. The threat of pain also makes me more
> ornery, I suspect.
snip
> My teacher once did a demo in which he threw the
> newest person in the
> class--a nearly complete beginner-- into a koshi
> nage breakfall (on the
> mat, not on concrete!). His point being that the
> "let me look after you"
> approach is entirely possible. If uke feels
> protected, then he is more
> able to learn. In a dojo situation, that means he is
> more able to pay
> attention to the fine points of the technique rather
> than survival. In a
> real situation, a protected uke is more able to
> decide that maybe he
> doesn't need to be attacking you after all.
>
This is well said, Katherine. I've also seen painfree
versions of all 3 techniques. I was fairly new and
one of our teachers was visiting from Japan. I was
trying to whale on the pressure point in yonkyo to
show off, and I didn't have it well enough to cause
any discomfort, let alone pain. My teacher said to
use the arm like a lever and with my center direct the
energy down the arm into the shoulder into the mat.
It didn't hurt the person but he could not move
without hurting himself.
Susan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 08:36:02 -0700
From: Larry Novick
Subject: Re: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
At 6:36 AM -0700 5/7/02, Giles Chamberlin wrote:
>This sounds fascinating. Are you saying that, with a resisting uke in
>"I know what's happening" mode, pain free nikkyo is difficult, but
>within the flow of a full technique that is what you pursue? In which
>case what's taking uke down? Is it a skeletal lock and off balancing
>them or something else?
Actually, i would say it's connection and leading.
>I think I can see ways where that might work in nikkyo, but I have
>real trouble seeing how sankyo works in that vein. Yonkyo? This is
>not a criticism, just the rattling of someone seeing a glimpse of a
>whole other approach to the techniques.
Sankyo is easier for me to do this with than Nikkyo. As far as Yonkyo
goes, when I tecah it at all, which is not often, I probably never
even use the pressure point, believe it or not. Again, connection and
leading....
>Does this "compassionate" approach extend elsewhere. Koshi nage onto
>a concrete surface, judo style, hurts. Do you have a gentler
>approach? I've always considered the benevolence of aikido to be of
>the form "I told you that you didn't want to do that", rather than the
>kinder "let me look after you" approach that you seem to be
>describing.
Although I don't teach Koshi nage, virtually everything in our style
of Aikido can be approached this way - without the "need" to throw,
and many techniques can be executed by lowering uke to the ground.
This is only one level of practice, but to me, as I've said before,
an important one so we don't just pay lip service to the
commpassionate side of Aikido but actually know how to do it. The
techniques that are more "difficult" to do this with are some forward
projections where the outcome tends to depend mostly on the attackers
forward energy and they "get what they ask for" so to speak. It's
hard to control the final moments of these throws.
LN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 08:44:22 -0700
From: Larry Novick
Subject: Re: Painless nikkyo (was Re: Unwritten contract)
At 10:43 AM -0400 5/7/02, Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
>Off balancing, and the inability to regain balance thanks to the lock.
True, but as i said, I tend to think of it in different terms,
connection and leading. As soon as I think of "off balancing someone"
I am then running the risk of "doing something to them" which I
abhor. :-)
>I don't study Larry's style, but I've experienced pain-free versions of
>all three techniques. In the pain-free versions, nage seems to have more
>control over my center, while in the painful versions nage seems to be
>focused on the point of contact. The painful versions are generally
>easier to resist: the source of the pain gives me something to "push"
>against. The threat of pain also makes me more ornery, I suspect.
Exactly!!! The focus is different, and ability to resist and/or
counter is different, and the reaction level is different. Well put!
>My teacher once did a demo in which he threw the newest person in the
>class--a nearly complete beginner-- into a koshi nage breakfall (on the
>mat, not on concrete!). His point being that the "let me look after you"
>approach is entirely possible. If uke feels protected, then he is more
>able to learn. In a dojo situation, that means he is more able to pay
>attention to the fine points of the technique rather than survival. In a
>real situation, a protected uke is more able to decide that maybe he
>doesn't need to be attacking you after all.
Again - Right on! I am concerned about the resulting state of the
attacker. He may have a gun in his car, go get it, and come back and
kill me, then or later, if I piss him off.... :-)
LN
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002