Tenchinage
-- was: Anyone Know Him?
(Extracted from Aikido-L)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:22:35 +0000
From: Hooker Dennis
Subject: Any one know him?
Black-belt prosecutor stops fleeing prisoner cold
By JASON SCHULTZ
Sentinel staff writer
SANTA CRUZ - A prosecutor specializing in white-collar crime got to show off
his black belt in aikido on Friday when he took down a fleeing inmate at the
county courthouse.
Dave Genochio, with the District Attorney's Office for more than 20 years,
was sitting in the gallery in Judge Art Danner's courtroom around 10 a.m.
Hearing a commotion, he looked up and saw 29-year-old Peter Hurd of Olympic
Valley, clad in a jail-issue orange jumpsuit, leap through the jury box
trying to flee the courtroom. Several bailiffs and other prosecutors were in
hot pursuit.
Genochio, who holds a black belt in the martial art of aikido, stood up and
threw a move called the "tenchi nage."
Santa Cruz Aikido instructor Michael Chojnacki said the name translates to
"heaven and earth throw."
Genochio compared the move to a wrestling move known as a "clothesline." He
threw his left arm across Hurd's upper body from his shoulder to his waist.
Hurd came to an abrupt stop, and Genochio drove the inmate into a row of
seats, where both were tackled by the pursuing bailiffs.
Neither Hurd nor Genochio were hurt.
"It was awesome," said prosecutor Jeff Rossell, who was in the courtroom.
"It was like poetry in motion."
Genochio said he "just reacted. I was just thinking, 'He is not getting out
that door.' "
Aikido centers on immobilizing attackers without hurting them, unlike kung
fu or more traditional types of karate that focus of punches and kicks,
Chojnacki said.
Hurd was facing charges of burglary, vandalism and battery.
Prosecutors will now add attempted escape to the list.
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:48:39 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
Cool!
Unfortunately, the article doesn't tell us whether Genochio started his
tenchinage from ai-hanmi or gyaku-hanmi.
:-)
Jake Jacobe
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:53:11 -0500
From: Randy Pertiet
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
Sounds more like Irimi Nage vs. Tenchi Nage
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:05:03 -0800
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
Hooker Dennis writes:
(quoting a newspaper article)
>Genochio compared the move to a wrestling move known as a "clothesline." He
>threw his left arm across Hurd's upper body from his shoulder to his waist.
I found this interesting, because as I've been taught, the point is very much
NOT to do a "clothsline" (same thing as with iriminage). Ie, you don't want to
go across in a flat line, you want to go up & then down. I know that when *I*
mess up and wind up clothslining it, most of my partners can resist that, being
bigger & heavier than me...
Would have loved to see this, though...
--Cindy
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:20:09 -0500
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
Actually the point in this case would have been for Genochio to describe the
technique so that the reporter could picture it, and then for the reporter to
describe the technique for readers in one or two sentences. I suspect that
Genochio's discussion with his friends back at the dojo covered many more of the
points people on this list would like to know about.
Since it worked, his technique couldn't have been too horribly incompetent. Or,
looking at it another way, maybe this example shows that imperfect technique can
still be useful in real world situations.
Katherine
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:46:38 GMT
From: Mike Cummins
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
Cindy wrote:
> the point is
> very much NOT to do a "clothsline" (same thing as with iriminage).
I would imagine that as a Dan grade at Aikido the relevant person would agree.
This is probably the reporters interpretation of Tenchi Nage seeing one arm
raised and one arm lowered in a distorted cross.
Ob: Aikido Does anyone consider Tenchinage a specialised form of Iriminage?
Tori is definitely entering behind...
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:17:05 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
At 06:46 PM 3/20/02 GMT, Mike Cummins wrote:
>Ob: Aikido Does anyone consider Tenchinage a specialised form of
Iriminage? Tori is definitely entering behind...
I've seen one that is, but aren't there others that are very different? We've
got one that starts from a two-handed rear wrist grab, and involves nage turning
to face uke as uke goes down. That doesn't seem a lot like Iriminage (unless
I'm misremembering what Iriminage is...not sure we call it that).
Tenchinage always involves one hand down and fairly motionless, the other going
high and moving to "stretch" uke out of balance, but other details vary to make
it a whole family of throws, not a single technique.
Or am I seriously confused here?
-- Mike "a common state" Bartmann --
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:22:47 -0800
From: Lorien Lowe
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
--- Randy Pertiet wrote:
> Sounds more like Irimi Nage vs. Tenchi Nage
That was my reaction as well. Perhaps due to my lack of experience, i'm only
familiar with a tenchi nage involving at least one grabbed hand, which then
provides a strong 'down.' The description makes it sound more like an 'up and
through,' with no grabbing involved at all.
-Lorien
too bad you can't buy tickets for this sort of thing.
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:38:03 -0800
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Any one know him?
Michael Riehle writes:
>I had a similar reaction, but then I remembered all the times I've tried to
>explain stuff like that non-Aikido people. To them it looks like a
>clothesline move and the only way they'll know any better is to train.
Yes, it's just that the article ostensibly quotes him as describing it that
way. I also wondered whether it was actually iriminage (as I doubt the guy
grabbed his hands) but the part translating "tenchi" was also pretty specific.
Still, I know how much a news source can totally garble things, so...
And back to the OP, sorry for the drift; no I don't know this guy.
Cheers,
--Cindy
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:43:21 GMT
From: Mike Cummins
Subject: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Mike Bartman wrote:
> Tenchinage always involves one hand down and fairly motionless,
Hmmm. I would say *both* hands are prescribing arcs at 45 (up) and 225 (down)
degrees
on a sphere meeting at the fingertips...
> unless I'm misremembering what Iriminage is...not sure we call it that).
Kokyunage?
Mike
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:36:26 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
At 10:43 AM 3/21/02 GMT, Mike Cummins wrote:
>Mike Bartman wrote:
>> Tenchinage always involves one hand down and fairly motionless,
>
>Hmmm. I would say *both* hands are prescribing arcs at 45 (up) and 225 (down)
degrees
>on a sphere meeting at the fingertips...
I won't argue it. Maybe my limited experience has just involved attacks where
the earth hand starts out low, and just stays there? There hasn't been a lot of
motion involved with it anyway, especially after it's gotten where it's going.
The heaven hand often moves to unbalance uke though. That's what I've seen, but
I haven't seen all that much. :^)
>> unless I'm misremembering what Iriminage is...not sure we call it that).
>
>Kokyunage?
That sounds more familiar! Thanks!
-- Mike "but which one? :^)" Bartman --
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:32:02 -0600
From: Michael Hacker
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
The way I'd chose to do tenchinage (if, hypothetically, I were to do tenchinage)
would be to drop weight through the "earth" hand first. This causes uke to
attempt to compensate for his broken posture by raising the arm that my "heaven"
hand is attached to (see "picking up moving luggage at the airport"). I believe
the body's reason for doing this is that it's attempting to grab onto something
with the other arm and pull itself back onto balance.
Since there's no counterbalancing weight on the other arm, it goes up... tori
just follows to maintain the connection.
If Tarik is onlist (and can rememeber through the single malt haze), he might be
able to comment on whether this is an accurate description. We worked on it a
bit during the Boulder seminar, but he might not... erm... remember.
Michael
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:53:25 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
From: "Mike Bartman"
> I won't argue it. Maybe my limited experience has just involved attacks
> where the earth hand starts out low, and just stays there? There hasn't
> been a lot of motion involved with it anyway, especially after it's gotten
> where it's going. The heaven hand often moves to unbalance uke though.
> That's what I've seen, but I haven't seen all that much. :^)
I'm no shodan, but where we train I got used to that earth hand doing what seems
to me to be like 80% of the job. It isn't "doing" much, but is firm and right in
front of my knee....and makes uke bend at the waist enough that the heaven hand
almost is like a feather, but tipping the scale just enough..
At least some of the time. I think I have gone back and forth, trying for
balance between both hands, but sometimes favoring the heaven and sometimes the
earth. I DO notice that with some of my partners that if I rely on the heaven
hand it seems they more often can easily resist the technique.
Jim
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:56:19 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Mike Bartman wrote:
>I won't argue it. Maybe my limited experience has just involved attacks
>where the earth hand starts out low, and just stays there?
You are not incorrect in your perception, Mike. Ki Society Tenchinage has the
earth hand dropping down as nage's one point drops and then staying there to
provide a seemingly secure (but really deceptively insecure) handhold for uke.
It then travels along an unwavering plane as the heaven hand circles up and
around uke's body and head to effect the throw.
Jake
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:34:32 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
At 12:56 PM 3/21/02 -0500, Jake Jacobe wrote:
>Mike Bartman wrote:
>>I won't argue it. Maybe my limited experience has just involved attacks
>>where the earth hand starts out low, and just stays there?
>
>You are not incorrect in your perception, Mike.
Thanks for the confirmation. Always nice to find that I've learned *something*!
:^)
>Ki Society Tenchinage has
>the earth hand dropping down as nage's one point drops and then staying
>there to provide a seemingly secure (but really deceptively insecure)
>handhold for uke. It then travels along an unwavering plane as the heaven
>hand circles up and around uke's body and head to effect the throw.
You are describing the two wrist grab from behind tenchinage, right? I think
the other folks here are talking about the two wrist grab from the front
version, where you dip down to verticalize the heaven hand, leaving earth hand
where it is (i.e. letting it bend as needed), then rise, taking the heaven hand
up as the earth hand straightens and goes unbendable, then you shift forward
slightly, and drop center, so that the earth hand takes uke's low hand behind
his center, and then down for the throw. That's the way it looks from here at
the moment anyway.
-- Mike "I've done both versions, and like them a lot" Bartman --
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:29:23 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
At 06:53 PM 3/21/02 +0100, James R. Acker wrote:
>From: "Mike Bartman"
>> where the earth hand starts out low, and just stays there? There hasn't
>> been a lot of motion involved with it anyway, especially after it's gotten
>
>I'm no shodan, but where we train I got used to that earth hand doing what
seems
>to me to be like 80% of the job. It isn't "doing" much, but is firm and
right in
>front of my knee...
Yes, it is doing most of the work, but it isn't moving much at all relative to
me, which is what I was getting at. I'm not waving it around, or even ticking
it anywhere. It's a sort of unbendable beam that uke is attached to. Depending
on *which* tenchinage you are talking about, it may stay frozen in space as I
pivot around after elevating the heaven hand, or it may move forward slightly,
and then down as I shift slightly forward and down with my center when uke is in
front of me. If I let it float up or otherwise move around much, the throw
doesn't happen, no matter what I'm doing with the other hand.
Simcox sensei used to show that you could do the throw with just the earth hand
if you did it right in the front attack situation. As uke on occasion, I can
assure you that it worked just fine! :^)
-- Mike "the heaven hand alone wasn't very effective though" Bartman --
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:57:17 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Michael Hacker wrote:
> The way I'd chose to do tenchinage (if, hypothetically, I were to
> do tenchinage) would be to drop weight through the "earth" hand
> first. This causes uke to attempt to compensate for his broken
> posture by raising the arm that my "heaven" hand is attached to
> (see "picking up moving luggage at the airport"). I believe the
> body's reason for doing this is that it's attempting to grab onto
> something with the other arm and pull itself back onto balance.
> Since there's no counterbalancing weight on the other arm, it goes
> up... tori just follows to maintain the connection.
Here's a post from MonkeyBoy Michael and my response to it regarding tenchinage
from last December...
----- Forwarded message from Jun Akiyama ------
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:35:28 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
To: Aikido-L Mailing Listz
Subject: Re: Tenchi nage question
Michael Hacker wrote:
> Agreed. If you drop weight through the "earth" arm to a point just
> outside and to the rear of uke's heel, his monkey brain will
> involuntarily pull his "heaven" arm up in an attempt to pull his
> body back onto balance (not to mention causing his leg and back
> muscles to fire). Then all you have to do as tori is follow the
> "heaven" arm to maintain the connection. Try this out on yourself
> the next time you go to grab your luggage off the conveyor belt at
> the airport. Don't mind the funny looks.
I was able to talk to my teacher today about tenchinage as well as grab his
wrists. His interpretation is that the earth hand is predominant at the
beginning to unbalance uke downward and forward. The heaven hand comes into play
less, as some people do tenchinage, to project past uke's ear but to break uke's
balance through his shoulder; at the same time, the heaven-side hip retracts
slightly to break uke's balance forward. As uke's balance gets sucked into
nage's heaven-side, nage then off-balances uke again through his heaven-side
shoulder. By this time, uke's balance is taken downward and forward through his
earth hand, upward and forward through his heaven hand, and then (shortly
thereafter) upward and backward through his heaven hand. Result? Uke's body
becomes twisted both vertically as well as having his balance taken so that his
legs shoot forward and through.
Oh yeah -- all that in a fraction of a second.
Another way we interpret tenchinage is as ikkyo to the heaven hand and
sumiotoshi to the earth hand...
> Michael "Did that make ANY sense?" Hacker
Jun
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:23:32 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Mike Bartman wrote:
>You are describing the two wrist grab from behind tenchinage, right? I
>think the other folks here are talking about the two wrist grab from the
>front version,
Front ... back ... it's all the same to me.
>where you dip down to verticalize the heaven hand, leaving
>earth hand where it is (i.e. letting it bend as needed),
That's what I said, the earth hand drops because the one-point drops and the
earth hand is connected to the one-point (as is the rest of the body.
> -- Mike "I've done both versions, and like them a lot" Bartman --
I like 'em all.
Jake
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:13:45 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
I seem to remember quite a bit of disagreement before but whether from a one or
two hand grab tenchinage requires both heaven and earth hands to begin movement
simultaneously. Kuzushi comes from both with atemi (threat of atemi if you
will) providing the impetuous for the heaven hand. Imagine if you will only the
earth hand being used - uke needs only turn to wreck havoc. Please remember that
atemi is not just a smack to the face but in Shodokan at least it can be placing
the palm on uke's chin and twisting the head inward or just continuing past ala
iriminage.
Michael Hacker wrote:
>>The way I'd chose to do tenchinage (if, hypothetically, I were to
>>do tenchinage) would be to drop weight through the "earth" hand
>>first. This causes uke to attempt to compensate for his broken posture by
raising the arm that my "heaven" hand is attached to
>>(see "picking up moving luggage at the airport"). I believe the
>>body's reason for doing this is that it's attempting to grab onto
>>something with the other arm and pull itself back onto balance.
>>Since there's no counterbalancing weight on the other arm, it goes
>>up... tori just follows to maintain the connection.
>>
Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:35:23 -0700
From: michael hacker
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Can't say that I agree with you. In my experience, if kuzushi is applied
properly, the last thing to enter into uke's mind would be to try and hit me
with the other hand. By the time it would get up there, he's already airborne.
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:46:36 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
From what you quoted I assume you mean only the earth hand provides kuzushi -
if so I really disagree.
----------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:07:09 -0700
From: michael hacker
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
My experience is that the earth hand initiates the kuzushi... the heaven hand
maintains connection. Hell, my seniors can chuck me around with just the earth
hand. Then again, to my knowledge, we don't practice "tenchi nage" as a
specific technique. Assumptions are a bitch.
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:33:26 -0500
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael hacker"
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
> My experience is that the earth hand initiates the kuzushi... the heaven
> hand maintains connection. Hell, my seniors can chuck me around with just
> the earth hand. Then again, to my knowledge, we don't practice "tenchi
> nage" as a specific technique. Assumptions are a bitch.
Ah ha! I just figured out why I had so much trouble with tenchinage when I
visited Margo's place. They seem (correct me if I'm wrong, Margo) to do more or
less what Michael is describing, or what Jun described as a sumiotoshi with the
earth hand. I kept ending up just pulling on uke with my earth hand, but not
accomplishing much of anything in the way of kuzushi. I never did figure out
exactly what the problem was.
For our version, an analogy we often use is that the earth hand is roots growing
down, while the heaven hand is a vine growing up. Kuzushi comes from the action
of both, combined with nage's whole body entering and/or turning (depending on
version).
Interesting. Need to play with this some more.
Katherine
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:42:11 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Michael Hacker wrote:
> Can't say that I agree with you. In my experience, if kuzushi is applied
> properly, the last thing to enter into uke's mind would be to try and hit me
> with the other hand.
That's basically the way we approach it, too. Just like in katatedori kokyunage
(which is like sokumen iriminage), nage's "other hand" has to be taken out of
effective use. In fact (as, I think, I wrote in the post I reposted), our
tenchinage includes a bit of a "kokyunage flavor" for the initial kuzushi in the
earth hand. Latter kuzushi with that hand, though, more seems like sumiotoshi
to me. The heaven hand, incidentally, is a lot like ikkyo.
Jun
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:30:02 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
>For our version, an analogy we often use is that the earth hand is roots
>growing down, while the heaven hand is a vine growing up. Kuzushi comes
>from the action of both, combined with nage's whole body entering and/or
>turning (depending on version).
Exactly
Michael Hacker wrote:
>Then again, to my knowledge, we don't practice
>"tenchi nage" as a specific technique. Assumptions are a bitch.
True they are - but not so bad when you declare them to be. Just stating I was
confused as to what you meant and giving a handle for subsequent clarification.
I can take someone down with just the earth hand assuming they don't let go.
If I hold on its called sumiotoshi.
Peter R.
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:18:50 -0800
From: Janet Rosen
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Jun Akiyama wrote:earth hand. Latter kuzushi
> with that hand, though, more seems like sumiotoshi to me. The heaven
> hand, incidentally, is a lot like ikkyo.
Heheheh. Tonight's technique was....tenchinage (they do NOT use Japanese terms
for anything; its my one "grrrr" at my new dojo) and we played a lot with taking
balance just with the earth hand and yes, the angle I kept finding for kuzushi
was where I'd go with sumiotoshi. My heaven hand kept feeling more like
iriminage than ikkyo but that's probably a reflection of a short person (me)
performing the technique with a tall uke--if I am using both arms and
maintaining that nice earth connection, with a short uke I can aim for ikkyo but
not with a tall one!
janet
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:58:34 -0700
From: michael hacker
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Assuming it's their CHOICE not to let go in the first place.
> I can take someone down with just the earth hand assuming they don't let go
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:03:04 EST
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Howdy,
> My experience is that the earth hand initiates the kuzushi...
> the heaven hand maintains connection. Hell, my seniors
> can chuck me around with just the earth hand.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Mike on this one. When I grab a fellow Ki-wee
who does tenchinage well, it feels like the hand (mine) which grabs their earth
hand gets extremely heavy. It's as if someone handed me a suitcase loaded with
bricks. My other hand flies up as I fall backward, and it's over. Right or
wrong, it's effective.
Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:28:46 +0900
From: Peter Rehse
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Having fun with this. You can control whether or not someone's fingers open????
There has to be an overriding reason for that grip to be maintained beyond being
a cooperative partner. One reason I can think of is that if tori is armed with
a knife - uke wants to maintain control. Is there another reason and sorry
brilliant overwhelming speed of Tori doesn't count.
michael hacker wrote:
> Assuming it's their CHOICE not to let go in the first place.
>
> I can take someone down with just the earth hand assuming they
> don't let go. If I hold on its called sumiotoshi.
Peter Rehse
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:58:37 -0300
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ubaldo=20Alcantara?=
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Katherine Derbyshire escreveu:
For our version, an analogy we often use is that the earth hand is roots growing
down, while the heaven hand is a vine growing up. Kuzushi comes from the action
of both, COMBINED WITH NAGE'S WHOLE BODY ENTERING and/or turning (depending on
version).
Katherine
UBALDO : Mightn't that be considered ATEMI (Targeting the body)?
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:39:18 -0500
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Kuzushi comes from the action of both, COMBINED WITH NAGE'S WHOLE BODY
ENTERING and/or turning (depending on version).
We usually don't think of it in those terms. The atemi in our version of
tenchinage is the strike with the heaven hand that people have already
mentioned.
Katherine
"I fight Authority, Authority always wins . . ."
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:00:05 -0700
From: michael hacker
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
In a word: yes.
In lots more words:
You're correct that speed is irrelevant. If you really destroy a person's
posture, causing him to lean on you for support or to try and use his connection
to your body to right himself, it's very difficult for him to let go of whatever
he happens to be grabbing. It seems to me to be the body's defensive response
to keep itself from falling down (much like the "heaven" hand raising in an
attempt to correct one's posture). Watch what an untrained person's arms do
naturally on their own while they're falling down.
In other words, it's not a conscious choice at all on uke's part. With good
posture, lean on a door that's partially open just enough to cause it to close.
Once the door has shut (breaking your posture to the point of having to lean on
it slightly), let go of it. Don't push off... just let go and feel what happens
to your body. If you follow my example (poorly explained over this medium as it
was), you should crash head-first into the door (or be forced to take a step you
didn't want to take).
Of course, the more skillfull the person, the more control they have over their
body. Looks like we need to get together over a bowl (or two) of
ramen... :-)
Having fun with this. You can control whether or not someone's fingers
open????
There has to be an overriding reason for that grip to be maintained beyond
being a cooperative partner. One reason I can think of is that if tori is
armed with a knife - uke wants to maintain control. Is there another reason and
sorry brilliant overwhelming speed of Tori doesn't count.
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:25:59 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Peter Rehse wrote:
>There has to be an overriding reason for that grip to be maintained
>beyond being a cooperative partner.
Why uke wants to grab nage's wrist is a wonderful topic. Being presented with a
wrist passsively held in my direction and being expected to grab it despite the
fact that it presents no threat is a pet peeve of mine. Often when a nage who
should know better does that to me, I will slap his/her outstretched hand aside,
grab his/her throat and snarl, "Give me a _reason_ to want to grab your wrist."
I think this is a phenomenon peculiar to people who grow up with just aikido
and no other martial training. "Grab my wrist" is really just shorthand (or
should be) for "grab my wrist or I will choke/strike/tear/grab you with the hand
attached to it." Students who come to aikido with training in more combative
arts usually know this already. Those fresh to the martial arts often don't
learn it in some forms of aikido (definitely the instructors fault).
I will often ask when demonstrating technique against katatetori, "why doesn't
uke just let go of me at this point?" I will then demonstrate how, if uke does
let go, I can use the now free hand to choke/strike/tear/grab uke.
I firmly belief that if uke doesn't feel threatened by nage (perhaps with a
knife as in Peter's example), then there is no good reason to think uke will
grab nage's wrist in real life (tm).
Has this just become an atemi thread? :-)
Jake
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:39:28 -0800
From: Peter Boylan
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
--- Jake Jacobe wrote:
> I will often ask when demonstrating technique against katatetori, "why
> doesn't uke just let go of me at this point?" I will then demonstrate how,
> if uke does let go, I can use the now free hand to choke/strike/tear/grab
> uke.
I think the problem is that the training scenarios are not properly developed.
Why the hell did uke grab the hand in the first place? Try developing a
scenario like this: Uke is approaching in a threatening manner. In response,
nage raises the hand to place it between uke and nage. Nage THEN grabs the
wrist to pull uke in, push the arm out of the way, or whatever. Make how the
arm is presented as much a part of the practice as the technique.
This why koryu is so much fun. All of these aspects of training have been
fulminated upon for hundreds of years, and most of these issues have been
addressed.
Peter "the Budo Bum looks forward to some day being able to share the Eishin
kumitachi with you at a list seminar" Boylan
Peter Boylan
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:50:33 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Saotome sensei will sometimes show ways in which uke's responses to
block punches and strikes (done (and sometimes initiated) by nage)
result in uke's grabbing nage in the usual katate/kosa/ryote/etc-dori
manners.
Jun
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:59:17 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Peter Boylan wrote:
> I think the problem is that the training scenarios are
> not properly developed.
In which dojo?
> Why the hell did uke grab the hand in the first place? Try developing a
> scenario like this: Uke is approaching in a threatening manner. In
> response, nage raises the hand to place it between uke and nage. Nage
> THEN grabs the wrist to pull uke in, push the arm out of the way, or
> whatever. Make how the arm is presented as much a part of the practice
> as the technique.
This *is* how it is taught... just ask most Aikiko students.
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:24:53 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Julian Frost wrote:
>This *is* how it is taught... just ask most Aikiko students.
It's how _I_ teach it as well, but it's not always how I have been taught.
I must admit, though, that I have never been to an Aikiko dojo.
:-)
Jake
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:37:44 -0500
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Howdy,
> I must admit, though, that I have never been
> to an Aikiko dojo.
Y'know, I thought the stuff Julian did in Boulder and Indy didn't quite feel
like Aikido. Now I know why.
Thanks for pointing that out, Brother Jake.
Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:47:35 +0000
From: Hooker Dennis
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (Oh boy here we go!)
By Dennis Hooker
Well I was not going to post this. I do so now only to expand upon the
possibilities within the reaction, action, interaction or the reactive and
proactive stages of Aikido development. Yes, Aikido goes well beyond application
of technique. Herein things become a bit fuzzy for some folks and I truly
believe there is no possible way to discover these things outside experience. No
amount of intellectualizing, hypothesizing or rationalizing can achieve the
degree of skill or sensitivity needed to grow to these stages of development.
Are they exclusive to advanced Aikido? I doubt it, but I do not have enough
experience in other arts to make that judgment.
Energy - Thought - Action --- Reaction - Interaction - Proaction
Energy precedes Thought, thought precedes Action. In the terms of the Aikido I
have been exploring I have come to relate these as Action begets Reaction,
Thought begets Interaction and Energy begets Proaction .
As the brain begins a chemical process synapses occurs (energy). This brings to
life an idea (thought) which is translated into an expression (action). I
believe for the most part our development in Aikido starts at the backend of
this process. All three elements are tangible and at some point in our training
perceptible. As a person moves through the rungs of Aikido they should notice
many small changes in their nature, and at times perhaps sudden and intense
changes. They will, if astute start to notice changes in their perception of the
nature of others. Aikido is after all sensitivity training is it not. After
all, that is what we do. We spend hours and years becoming sensitive to the
slightest shift in intent and action from our fellows on the mat. As a mudansha
we are mostly concerned with reaction from a stationary starting point. We
establish a condition for training with which we are for the most part
comfortable. We allow someone to touch us, grab us, or punch at us and then
after the initial act, and in a moment of static time, which can be short or
prolonged depending upon our ability to react we apply a technique and express
a principle of Aikido in conjunction with our partner. Static training is, I
believe the first phase in this process. It is necessary training but training
that should be left behind at some point. It helps us build a foundation for
correct application of technique which allows us to express a particular
principle in Aikido. We get better and better at reacting. It seems that some
folks get stuck here in the reaction mode. It is close to a fighting mode and
feels comfortable to some individuals because they are big, or strong or fast or
coordinated, or perhaps all of those things. For what ever reason they stay
here and perhaps become very good at what they do. It is my personal belief that
this is only the beginning of our sensitivity training in Aikido but some folks
become expert beginners.
At we become more and more aware we start to take closer notice as the thought
turns into action. If we allow it to happen I believe that this awareness
sharpens as one moves into the early and mid yudansha stages of Aikido training.
Through graduating speeds of attack we begin to develop
quicker and quicker responses. These responses move from the realm of reaction
to interaction. At the lower levels the interaction comes toward
the end of the movement just before it becomes stationary or starts to retract.
As we become more sensitive to our partners intent we pick up the
movement more rapidly and start to interact earlier. There may come a time as
we grow in Aikido that it seems we match our partner in movement catching a body
in motion and interacting with it thus raising the level and quality of the
interaction. However, we are still in the developmental stages of the
quintessential sensitive training. We are still acting upon a physical stimuli
supplied by the movement or our partners body. We have moved
beyond reaction to something more closely resembling interaction.
As we move into the upper realm of understanding in Aikido I must move from what
I know to what I speculate for the most part. Although I have seen glimpses of
this in my training they are no more that bright flashes come and gone, and just
as hard to keep hold of. I am now speaking of the realm of Energy. I'm speaking
of that energy which is created prior to thought. It is real, it happens and it
can be measured on sensitive electronic
equipment. I have had many EEG done on me over the years. Some related to
Myasthenia Gravis and some to measure brain activity while under severe physical
and mental duress while in the Army so I know, without understanding it, they
can measure the energy output and activity of the brain. I believe it is
possible to pick up on this energy. I do not believe it is possible to read the
mind or anything like that. I do believe that it is possible to perceive in the
creator that energy which has been created on a person to person level. I know
that in training with some of the Aikido people I have known over the years and
a few of the swordsmen I have worked with that they must have perceived my
intent before it was turned into action because I was stopped before I had a
chance to start. I have been able to do this a few times. It is strictly
spontaneous on my part and the harder I try to do it the less successful I am,
but I believe this to be proactive Aikido. I know that on occasion my sensei
has picked up my thought before it was turned into voluntary action. Perhaps
they pick up on involuntary action caused by the creation of energy in the mind.
Perhaps they are at a level in their sensitive training that this is a natural
evaluation of the Art. That is an evolution that will take place if one allows
one's self the opportunity by not quieting and open-mindedly seeking the next
level. What ever the reason I believe it to lead to the ultimate Aikido.
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:47:19 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Bartman"
> >to me to be like 80% of the job. It isn't "doing" much, but is firm and
> >right in front of my knee...
>
> Yes, it is doing most of the work, but it isn't moving much at all relative
> to me, which is what I was getting at. I'm not waving it around, or even
> sticking it anywhere. It's a sort of unbendable beam that uke is attached
> to. Depending on *which* tenchinage you are talking about, it may stay
> frozen in space as I pivot around after elevating the heaven hand, or it
> may move forward slightly, and then down as I shift slightly forward and
> down with my center when uke is in front of me. If I let it float up or
> otherwise move around much, the throw doesn't happen, no matter what I'm
> doing with the other hand.
So we are saying the same thing...but to me it just seems like it still is
really active even though it is pretty much staying put. I think the initial
movement (do we even have a name for that movement? The hand seems to me to move
parallel to the floor, in something resembling an open hand hammerfist) is what
makes it seem so active to me. I have trouble thinking of the heaven hand as
really doing anything :-) ...seems like the heaven hand just comes in and takes
ALL the credit for the fall....lousy heaven hand... Anyway, I gotta work on
balance...
jim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:11:59 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, James R. Acker wrote:
> I have trouble thinking of the heaven hand as really doing anything :-)
> ...seems like the heaven hand just comes in and takes ALL the credit for
> the fall....lousy heaven hand... Anyway, I gotta work on balance...
Hmmm...
The way I was taught was that both the heaven and hell (ok, ok, "earth"!) hand
are very active. The earth hand draws uke to the "third point", the point to the
rear of uke and out to his side. The heaven hand is used in exactly the same
manner as during sitting kokyuho. It is rotated and lifted along the line of
uke's gi collar. This rotating, lifting motion, when done with nage's elbow
lowered, causes uke's wrist to bend, draws uke forward into the technique --
making him step or start to lose balance -- and it raises uke's elbow.
We do a series of exercises that lead into ryotedori tenchinage. From gyaku
hanmi katate dori (say, left hand and foot forward), we'll concentrate on just
the earth hand -- pivoting the body in place using a large hip turn, drawing uke
around us, then reversing direction and cutting horizontally with the earth hand
to throw uke back the way he came. Then, from right gyaku hanmi, concentrating
on the heaven hand, this time stepping back with the front (right) foot, doing
the "sitting kokyu ho" movement with the right hand, turning the hips strongly,
sucking uke in and throwing him backwards.
Then we combine the two and do the ura version of tenchinage from ryote dori.
Sometimes we'll do all three exercises, but using the torifune priciple, that
is, we don't step anywhere, just suck uke in on the backwards movement of the
rowing exercise, then project with tenchinage on the forward movement.
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:30:06 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Jacobe"
> Peter Rehse wrote:
>
> >There has to be an overriding reason for that grip to be maintained
> >beyond being a cooperative partner.
>
> Why uke wants to grab nage's wrist is a wonderful topic.
> Being presented with a wrist passsively held in my direction and being
> expected to grab it despite the fact that it presents no threat is a pet
> peeve of mine. Often when a nage who should know better does that to me, I
> will slap his/her outstretched hand aside, grab his/her throat and
> snarl, "Give me a _reason_ to want to grab your wrist."
>
> I think this is a phenomenon peculiar to people who grow up with just
> aikido and no other martial training. "Grab my wrist" is really just
> shorthand (or should be) for "grab my wrist or I will
> choke/strike/tear/grab you with the hand attached to it." Students who
> come to aikido with training in more combative arts usually know this
> already. Those fresh to the martial arts often don't learn it in some
> forms of aikido (definitely the instructors fault).
>
> I will often ask when demonstrating technique against katatetori, "why
> doesn't uke just let go of me at this point?" I will then demonstrate how,
> if uke does let go, I can use the now free hand to choke/strike/tear/grab
> uke.
>
> Jake
Those are some really excellent points. I am including the whole post this time
on purpose because I am sure lots of folks have responded (I am in another
timezone..that is another reason to include..that I am responding to a post I am
pretty sure has moved on a bit since this post)
I like the idea that the hand to be grabbed is a threat. We only currently do
this with one attack that I know of...I mean specifically where the hand comes
up as if to choke, and the response is a block that is essentially a hand grab
at the end. But I believe it is uke that gets his hand grabbed. I have to check.
Anyway, the one main point I wanted to ask about was, I have always heard that
we have so many grabs in aikido, besides because in the samurai days they may
have wanted to control sword hands, etc., is that O'sensei didn't want people,
especially beginners, focusing too much on punches coming in. The theory I heard
is that we all tense a little when a punch starts coming our way, or focus on
the "wrong" aspects...so they made many techniques start with a grab to not make
it as intimidating.
I will have to look for the text....because it does sound a little fishy to me
even as I write this. I sort of accepted it without thinking too much about it.
Because that is many peoples first complaints about aikido, that we don't do
"realistic" attacks. Yet, somehow I DO feel like I have gotten a different and
useful perspective on the basic principles because there were not many flying
fists.
In karate I thought in terms of dealing with punches, in aikido I think more in
dealing with the whole of the attacker. I don't know if that is good, or
dangerous, but I do tend to think in terms more of position and movement that
does something else than leave me trading punches or bobbing and weaving and
standing my ground. I like that I think of moving closer to uke rather than
keeping a distance...
and I do think it is safer.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:51:18 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, James R. Acker wrote:
> I like the idea that the hand to be grabbed is a threat. We only
> currently do this with one attack that I know of...
In *every* katate dori technique practised at my teacher's dojo, if you don't
grab the hand, it'll be used to hit you. Further, if you don't grab the hand the
correct way, it'll hit you. If you grab it using the wrong hand, it'll hit you.
If nage offers you his wrist with his palm down, and you "reach around" the arm
and grab it from underneath, it's *real* easy to break that grip and smack nage
with that hand. The reason why nage offers his wrist that way, is so that you
grab it from on top. Nage can offer his wrist palm uppermost. Again, if uke
reaches around and grabs from underneath he's just asking to be smacked (or have
nikyo applied very rapidly!).
When we offer a wrist to uke, the way we offer it is important. If our arm is
slightly across our body, then it's most likely going to be grabbed by both of
uke's hands -- morote dori -- since more of the forearm is available for
grabbing, and an uke who's looking for openings will recognize that. If we want
uke to grab both hands from behind, we don't simply turn our backs and let uke
grab... we offer one hand infront of our body, then let uke come around us and
grab the other hand that's now offered. If uke grabs that first hand but doesn't
"cut it down", out of the way before trying to come around, it'll end up in his
face, or worse, he'll get nikyo applied to it very quickly.
The whole "offering of wrists" thing has lots of strategy involved. My teacher
rarely, if ever, said "Grab ai hanmi", or "grab gyaku hanmi", or "Ryotedori".
He'd simply offer his wrist and it was up to uke to see where the opening was
and grab accordingly. Mistakes, when made, were obvious.
Julian
(James... any chance you could set your line length to something less than
1,000,000 characters?)
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:12:20 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
At 10:47 PM 3/22/02 +0100, James R. Acker wrote:
>From: "Mike Bartman"
>> Yes, it is doing most of the work, but it isn't moving much at all relative
>> to me, which is what I was getting at. I'm not waving it around, or even
>So we are saying the same thing...but to me it just seems like it still is
really active
>even though it is pretty much staying put.
Yes, we seem to be in agreement, though we express it differently. Don't know
if that expression comes from a different view of things, that might lead to a
difference in performance or not, but we seem to agree about the earth hand
doing most of the work in the "in front" version, and being vital in the "from
behind" version.
The "from behind" version always makes me think of an umpire signalling "safe!",
as uke falls (slides) into the mat, though the earth hand isn't supposed to move
in that one, and you aren't really stretching out.
-- Mike "I guess it's the arms wide ffinish that makes me think that" Bartman --
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:15:47 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
At 02:51 PM 3/22/02 -0800, Julian Frost wrote:
>The whole "offering of wrists" thing has lots of strategy involved.
And a lot of ki extension, right? :^)
-- Mike "always extend ki before extending wrist" Bartman --
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:38:10 -0800
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Julian Frost writes:
>When we offer a wrist to uke, the way we offer it is important. If our arm
>is slightly across our body, then it's most likely going to be grabbed by
>both of uke's hands -- morote dori -- since more of the forearm is
>available for grabbing, and an uke who's looking for openings will
>recognize that. If we want uke to grab both hands from behind, we don't
>simply turn our backs and let uke grab... we offer one hand infront of our
>body, then let uke come around us and grab the other hand that's now
>offered. If uke grabs that first hand but doesn't "cut it down", out of
>the way before trying to come around, it'll end up in his face, or worse,
>he'll get nikyo applied to it very quickly.
Hm, lots of food for thought there. I'm thinking there doesn't sound like a lot
of difference between the proffered arm for morotedori vs ushiro ryokatatedori,
or is it that the nage chooses which by wehther or not he pivots as the uke
initially grabs the arm and the uke then responds to that?
>The whole "offering of wrists" thing has lots of strategy involved. My
>teacher rarely, if ever, said "Grab ai hanmi", or "grab gyaku hanmi", or
>"Ryotedori". He'd simply offer his wrist and it was up to uke to see where
>the opening was and grab accordingly. Mistakes, when made, were obvious.
I'm going to go and look for the clues that distinguish ai hanmi from gyaku
hanmi in katatedori next practice. Hm.....
--Cindy
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:01:24 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Cindy wrote:
> Hm, lots of food for thought there. I'm thinking there doesn't sound
> like a lot of difference between the proffered arm for morotedori vs
> ushiro ryokatatedori,
It's the positioning of nage's arm, and nage's body that differentiates the
two... for morote dori, nage stands somewhat square on to uke. For ushiro, his
body is much more angled. Plus, nage can also offer the other arm behind his
back, tempting uke to go grab it as if it were his idea all along. :-)
> or is it that the nage chooses which by wehther or not he pivots as the
> uke initially grabs the arm and the uke then responds to that?
We don't pivot (turning our back on uke) when doing ushiro techniques, at least,
not until after/just as uke finalizes the grab. We may move forwards as uke
grabs, which effectively puts uke behind us, but we don't turn our back on uke.
> I'm going to go and look for the clues that distinguish ai hanmi from
> gyaku hanmi in katatedori next practice. Hm.....
It's the same thing with weapons... uke is supposed to see where the opening is
and attack accordingly. A subtle dipping of the sword's tip and uke is supposed
to see if the hands are being offered, or the head, or wherever. Watch two
experts at the Jo kata "Sansho" and you'll see that they're reacting to each
other's openings and defending from each other's attacks, rather than simply
doing what's next in the kata. You'll also see that each movement really only
leaves one opening, so it becomes fairly easy to continue the kata, even if the
specific techniques are lost in the cobwebs of the brain!
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:00:14 -0800
From: Paul Tanenbaum
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002
> From: "James R. Acker"
> ...
> I have trouble thinking of the heaven hand as really doing
> anything :-) ...seems like the heaven hand just comes in
> and takes ALL the credit for the fall....lousy heaven hand
As I learned it, you focus on either the heaven or earth hand, depending on
relative heights.
If nage is shorter, the earth hand does most of the work, as nage drops and
pulls uke down using gravity (his body weight). We assume here that uke holds
tight throughout to maintain connection (is this realistic?).
If nage is taller, he uses the heaven hand to drive uke into the ground from
above (again using gravity). This case seems to me, to be indistinguishable
from irimi-nage, except that uke is gripping your wrists.
---
Paul T.
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:24:04 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Frost"
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:51 PM
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, James R. Acker wrote:
>
> > I like the idea that the hand to be grabbed is a threat. We only
> > currently do this with one attack that I know of...
>
> In *every* katate dori technique practised at my teacher's dojo, if you
> don't grab the hand, it'll be used to hit you. Further, if you don't grab
> the hand the correct way, it'll hit you. If you grab it using the wrong
> hand, it'll hit you.
>
Thanks Julian...that is how I see it and I think it sounds right but it leads to
a problem. Maybe you guys could help me out here with some more advice.
This may have something to do with the level I am training. I had been away a
long time and have not gone over to "advanced" classes yet. Still, our
curriculum used to just lump all together and I must say we almost always offer
a wrist by pretty much presenting it, depending on the technique, like a knife
or palm up or palm down. I cannot recall seeing someone offer a wrist
"aggressively" or in any way that seemed to threaten anything.
So, I see and agree with your point. Fine. Now what do I do? I am not by any
means a senior, or high ranking person. I could just start trying to do it that
way, but almost certainly will be the only one doing it. My partners will all be
surprised by it. I will seem to be trying to be a "badass" I think, or at least
hardcore. Or seem to have too much attitude.
I could ask the instructors why we don't do it that way. I doubt they will
change things from a question though. The question is really WHY don't we do it
this way and what will it take for us to change?
Kjartan, if you are reading this, you've trained at my dojo, have you ever seen
the kind of wrist grab that Julian and others here have described? Maybe I have
just been missing it.
I don't mean we offer som "limp fish" of a hand or anything. Still, I definitely
never feel threatened or threatening when the "attack" starts with any wrist
grabs.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:25:38 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
----- Original Message ----- >
> The "from behind" version always makes me think of an umpire signalling
> "safe!", as uke falls (slides) into the mat, though the earth hand isn't
> supposed to move in that one, and you aren't really stretching out.
Except I think in all versions we end up closing the hands after the "safe"
part. The hands go out just as you describe but come together again while uke
still has a little contact.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:49:08 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Juist to clarify, I meant this more in repsponse not to the idea that "if you
don't grab it, it will hit you", or "the opening dictates what uke will attack
with"...thos things we do, but instead I meant it in response to the idea that
the offered hand IS an attack of sorts and not just an opening.
That might sound contradicory, but I mean that we start techniques with an
idea that the hand is GOING to hit you but happens to be open for grabbing at he
moment. At least this is how I think of it, and I could be wrong here. But the
idea I am getting is the hand should be actively...going for the throat?
More I think about it....what could be threatening about a hand, where the
arm is approx 40-45 degrees pointing down? In what I consider the typical aikido
wrist grab attack (and it is what you see in the aikido books as well) it seems
like the hand is just not a threat...unless you are running at uke, and
intending to ram the genitals it is in the wrong position for doing much isn't
it?
The one technique I was thinking about before starts with UKE reaching up
for a front, single handed choke, which NAGE then blocks and UKE proceeds to
push down the blocking arm ending up in a classic wrist grab. I think I have
this right...it has been a while. Damn it...I can't remember the whole thing...I
seem to recall it is a technique where UKE then goes behind NAGE and grabs the
other arm from behind...
If I could remember it better it would help, but in any case I always used
to like that technique because it made sense to me. I may be remembering it
wrong also, because I keep getting the thought that is was the only technique I
knew of where it could be seen that nage initiates the coming together...
Does anyone know the technique I am so badly explaining/recalling?
Jim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:30:21 -0800
From: Julian Frost
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, James R. Acker wrote:
> Juist to clarify, I meant this more in repsponse not to the idea that
> "if you don't grab it, it will hit you", or "the opening dictates what
> uke will attack with"...thos things we do, but instead I meant it in
> response to the idea that the offered hand IS an attack of sorts and not
> just an opening.
I don't mean that the hand is offered "aggressively", but, in the context of the
encounter -- two "combatants" approaching each other -- when one puts his hand
between them, the other had better do something with it!
> But the idea I am getting is the hand should be actively...going for the
> throat?
Not necessarily going for the throat, no.
> More I think about it....what could be threatening about a hand,
> where the arm is approx 40-45 degrees pointing down? In what I consider
> the typical aikido wrist grab attack
Hmmm. Well, our hands are generally extended towards uke, not pointing down.
However, the lower hand position is similar to the opening given when using a
sword or a hidden knife. You're giving an opening that allows uke to move around
the hand (sword or knife) and attack your center (or
the hand directly).
Julian
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:49:42 -0500
From: Jake Jacobe
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
James R. Acker wrote:
>But the idea I am getting is the hand should be actively...going for the
>throat?
Going for the throat is my personal favorite. But the offered hand could also
be moving to slap uke, punch uke, twist uke's nose or do a 3-stooges
double-eye poke (nyuk-nyuk-nyuk). It could also be reaching for a weapon In
real life (tm), why else would someone grab your wrist?
> More I think about it....what could be threatening about a hand, where
>the arm is approx 40-45 degrees pointing down?
There is a kung-fu move called "monkey grabs the fruit" :-)
>unless you are running at uke, and intending to ram the genitals
Or grabbing 'em or slapping 'em ...
There are lots of different ways of offering the wrist, each resulting in a
different type of grab and each way with an appropriate technique in response.
The arm pointing down is just one way.
So I don't sound too bloodthirsty and lose my Ki-wee aura, I would just like to
point out that I don't try to choke all my ukes all the time. In fact, I often
use wrist grab techniques in introductory classes just because they are less
intimidating to the novice than a punch or strike.
All I'm saying is the time comes when nage has to realize that the hand must
contain some amount of threat or uke just won't bother to grab it unless working
in a purely cooperative dojo manner. This "threat" can be anything from good ki
extension (as the Bartman pointed out) to outright nose smashing atemi, as long
as ones attackers feels, "I'd better grab this guy's wrist or else."
Apparently this is taught early in Julian's style. In other styles, it is never
taught at all. But I personally believe if it's not there at some point, all
you're doing is dancing.
Jake
(Yes, I am Ki Society)
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:16:14 -0500
From: Katherine Derbyshire
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
From: "Jake Jacobe"
> All I'm saying is the time comes when nage has to realize that the hand
> must contain some amount of threat or uke just won't bother to grab it
> unless working in a purely cooperative dojo manner. This "threat" can be
> anything from good ki extension (as the Bartman pointed out) to outright
> nose smashing atemi, as long as ones attackers feels, "I'd better grab this
> guy's wrist or else."
The amount of threat needed also depends on uke's intent. If uke intends to
attack, then the hand only needs to be enough of a threat to make sure that uke
grabs it instead of doing something else. If uke is willing to just stand there,
then the hand needs to pose enough of a threat to force uke to react to it. From
what I've seen, there's a progression from (1) nage just stands there and lets
uke grab (least advanced), to (2) nage stands in such a way that the hand is the
best or only available target, to (3) nage actively forces uke to respond to the
hand (most advanced).
Ukes who are expecting situation (1) tend to get very confused when presented
with situation (3). Situation (3) also starts to blur the distinction between
uke and nage.
Katherine
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:03:07 -0500
From: Blake Moorcroft
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On 24 Mar 2002 at 11:20, James R. Acker wrote:
> I am going to keep it in mind, in this particular instance about wrist
> grabs, because I really agree with it. I will try to keep that in mind
> when I start training again, as soon as I feel recovered enough from
> my operation.
>
> So I will see how it goes...I just think it is going to cause some
> consternation, even though I really believe it is the right way to
> train.
If you're concerned about consternation possibly causing problems (I'd be
concerned from the perspective of safety only), maybe just warn'em ahead of time
you're doing something new. The first couple of times at least...:)...after
that, they're on their own.
More later
Blake Moorcroft (Sei Bu)
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:20 -0800
From: Michael Riehle
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
From: James R. Acker
> If everyone else in the dojo, politely and meekly offers a wrist
> for the taking, and I am the only one aggressively going for the
> throat, I bet it ends up startling all my partners and they don't
> even grab the wrist...or parry it, or....
Okay, I've been following this thread for a while and I think I finally figured
out what was bugging me about it.
I have been to a few different dojos over the years. Most of them I trained at
had this kind of do-it-like-you-mean-it attitude. It was a really good energy.
The dojo I'm training in now tries to be softer about it. I startle many of
them on a regular basis. But it's okay because I maintain an attitude of "fun".
Here's the thing. If you come in and start being aggressive, it will not only
startle your partners, it will offend them. If, OTOH, you come in and try to
cheerfully catch them off guard (without becoming competitive!), i.e., provide
them an opportunity to challenge themselves, most of them will enjoy it even if
they are a bit startled. And it isn't just wrist grabs. Or nage.
Example: the other night I was practicing a technique with a lady in the dojo.
The resolution involves uke taking a forward roll. The first time she threw me
she was startled when I was back on my feet and coming for the next attack
before she realized I was into the roll. To her credit she pulled off the
response to it flawlessly. I wasn't being aggressive, I just wasn't giving her
any slack.
My point here is that if you want to try to be more "realistic", okay, but be
sure you don't cross over into becoming a thug. Your mindset about it makes all
the difference. And not all partners can handle as well as others. Be
sensitive to that point and you probably won't go too wrong.
Michael C. Riehle
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:55:29 +0100
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
From: "Michael Riehle"
> Example: the other night I was practicing a technique with a lady in the
> dojo. The resolution involves uke taking a forward roll. The first time
> she threw me she was startled when I was back on my feet and coming for the
> next attack before she realized I was into the roll. To her credit she
> pulled off the response to it flawlessly. I wasn't being aggressive, I just
> wasn't giving her any slack.
And that is a great example. A few years back I saw the Eurosport, Tissier demo
for aikido. Among the things I was incredibly impressed with, was that Tissiers'
uke did this. Came up out of the roll almost before going into the roll :-) and
I decided right then and there that "this is the way it should be" and I had no
doubts.
I started trying to do that as much as I possibly could. My conditioning got
better and I have tried ever since to keep the pace. With certain techniques it
still is tough!
We have one hakama-wearer (don't know for sure his rank) that every technique
he's cinching his belt, looking off into the distance, taking about 20 seconds
just to get started again....it gets really irritating in a higher ranking
person.
I DID start doing the "agressive return on attack" pretty much on my own.
Sometimes, especially with newer folks I notice they do it too after. I know
that they always did this when showing a technique (i.e. that uke rolls, comes
up facing nage and immidiately attacks again unless nage raises a hand to say
stop...to make a point) but I am pretty sure most of my partners used to take
longer between techniques. So this is the kind of thing that partners pick up
on.
And I'll see how creative I can start doing the "wrist offer" more in line...as
soon as I start back.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:15:18 +0100
From: Kjartan Clausen
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, James R. Acker wrote:
}Kjartan, if you are reading this, you've trained at my dojo, have you ever
}seen the kind of wrist grab that Julian and others here have described?
}Maybe I have just been missing it.
}
}I don't mean we offer som "limp fish" of a hand or anything. Still, I
}definitely never feel threatened or threatening when the "attack" starts
}with any wrist grabs.
Ummm... Jim... Not to dissapoint you, but... Most Aikidoka offer "limp fish"
wrists, both as attackers and defenders. OTOH, very few people I've met would
react as Julian indicated and hit you if you attacked the wrong way.
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:18:11 -0500
From: Margo Ballou
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage
Kjartan Clausen wrote:
>Ummm... Jim... Not to dissapoint you, but... Most Aikidoka offer "limp fish"
>wrists, both as attackers and defenders.
>OTOH, very few people I've met would react as Julian indicated and hit you
>if you attacked the wrong way.
Well, I've actually had a _man_ complain to me that I made his wrists red...
That was pretty weird, since I used to always have people tell me I grabbed very
softly. I may have changed. :) I try to be mellow, but committed...
I can never grab hard enough to satisfy my dojo-cho, but I do my best. I don't
grab anyone else's wrist with intent to hold as hard as I can; people have to
ask me to do that.
Last week I did finally have a situation in which I could feel free to hit my
partner if he grabbed my wrist limply, and I took full advantage of it. A good
time was had by all. :)
- Margo
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:19:14 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage
At 03:18 PM 3/25/02 -0500, Margo Ballou wrote:
>I can never grab hard enough to satisfy my dojo-cho, but I do my
>best. I don't grab anyone else's wrist with intent to hold as hard
>as I can; people have to ask me to do that.
Sounds like your dojo-cho is cheating...a strong (i.e. tense) grip is a lot
easier to break out of, or use to control uke, than a relaxed "holding with
ki" grip.
Soft != weak. Tight != strong. At least, not necessarily. :^)
>Last week I did finally have a situation in which I could feel free
>to hit my partner if he grabbed my wrist limply, and I took full
>advantage of it. A good time was had by all. :)
Just be sure it's a weak limp grip, not a with-ki soft grip. The former you can
break and hit, the latter won't really let go, and you might end up
becoming uke from your strike. :^)
-- Mike "unless your partner is as much a beginner as me" Bartman --
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:43:17 -0500
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:11:59 -0800, Julian Frost wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, James R. Acker wrote:
>> I have trouble thinking of the heaven hand as really doing anything :-)
>> ...seems like the heaven hand just comes in and takes ALL the credit for
>> the fall....lousy heaven hand... Anyway, I gotta work on balance...
>
>Hmmm...
>
>The way I was taught was that both the heaven and hell (ok, ok, "earth"!)
>hand are very active. The earth hand draws uke to the "third point", the
>point to the rear of uke and out to his side. The heaven hand is used in
>exactly the same manner as during sitting kokyuho. It is rotated and
>lifted along the line of uke's gi collar. This rotating, lifting motion,
>when done with nage's elbow lowered, causes uke's wrist to bend, draws uke
>forward into the technique -- making him step or start to lose balance --
>and it raises uke's elbow.
>
>We do a series of exercises that lead into ryotedori tenchinage. From
>gyaku hanmi katate dori (say, left hand and foot forward), we'll
>concentrate on just the earth hand -- pivoting the body in place using a
>large hip turn, drawing uke around us, then reversing direction and
>cutting horizontally with the earth hand to throw uke back the way he
>came. Then, from right gyaku hanmi, concentrating on the heaven hand, this
>time stepping back with the front (right) foot, doing the "sitting kokyu
>ho" movement with the right hand, turning the hips strongly, sucking uke
>in and throwing him backwards.
>
>Then we combine the two and do the ura version of tenchinage from ryote
>dori.
>
>Sometimes we'll do all three exercises, but using the torifune priciple,
>that is, we don't step anywhere, just suck uke in on the backwards
>movement of the rowing exercise, then project with tenchinage on the
>forward movement.
>
>Julian
ura, Gad,
Julian, you sure you weren't training in a Ki Society dojo ?
you sound like a closet kiwee. except for using torifune instead of funkogi and
for saying "sitting kokyu ho" instead of "kokyu dosa"
A number of times I have been taught tenchi nage by first throwing only with
earth hand and then only with the heaven hand. Then you put the two throws
together to make tenchinage. I like techniques where you are throwing the person
in more than one way.
Craig
HKA - knights who say ki
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:08:59 -0500
From: Mike Bartman
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage
At 05:02 PM 3/25/02 -0500, Jake Jacobe wrote:
>Mike Bartman wrote:
>
>> -- Mike "unless your partner is as much a beginner as me" Bartman --
>
>We are *all* beginners, Mike. :-)
Well, yeah, but some of us are greener than others. :^)
I did look up "kaiten nage" in Dynamic Sphere..."Projection #3", right? Yes,
that one looks like it's closest in principle to what I was talking
about...though what's shown is different in specifics.
>Especially if you study in one of those schools where a 40 year student is
>finally considered to be a senior student.
Yeah. Most of ours only have 10 or 12 years, with the most senior at 20-25
now... :^)
-- Mike "we do have shodans with only 5-10 though" Bartman --
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:05:02 -0000
From: Simon Watkins
Subject: Re: AIKIDO-L Digest - 25 Mar 2002 - Special issue (#2002-307)
Mike wrote
> Sounds like your dojo-cho is cheating...a strong (i.e. tense) grip is a
> lot easier to break out of, or use to control uke, than a relaxed "holding
> with ki" grip.
>
> Soft != weak. Tight != strong. At least, not necessarily. :^)
Now Mike strong!=tense. So stop pretending.
> Just be sure it's a weak limp grip, not a with-ki soft grip. The former
> you can break and hit, the latter won't really let go, and you might end
> up becoming uke from your strike. :^)
If You have contact Does it matter who is gripping who?
better maybe to ensure your partner maintains his grip? that way you can knee
him in the... umm, you know he isnt hitting you.
Simon
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:26:34 -0800
From: Paul Tanenbaum
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
> From: Julian Frost
> The heaven hand is used in exactly the same manner as
> during sitting kokyuho...
> We do a series of exercises that lead into ryotedori
> tenchinage... Then, from right gyaku hanmi, concentrating
> on the heaven hand, this time stepping back with the front
> (right) foot, doing the "sitting kokyu ho" movement with
> the right hand, turning the hips strongly, sucking uke
> in and throwing him backwards.
Frank Doran teaches tenchi-nage using this same exercise. It also includes a
dipping, followed by rising motion, which creates a kind of roller coaster
effect, which helps with the leading and balance break.
But he's a big guy, so he tends to emphasize the heaven hand, which can come
crashing down into your face if you have a loose grip - it's a motivation to
maintain good connection -
---
Paul T.
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:03:33 -0700
From: Jun Akiyama
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Craig wrote:
> A number of times I have been taught tenchi nage by first throwing
> only with earth hand and then only with the heaven hand. Then you
> put the two throws together to make tenchinage. I like techniques
> where you are throwing the person in more than one way.
Are you talking about more than one kuzushi? If so, I wonder if there are _any_
techniques that consist of just one kuzushi each...
Jun
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:47:36 -0500
From: Jon C Strauss
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Howdy,
> Are you talking about more than one kuzushi?
> If so, I wonder if there are _any_ techniques
> that consist of just one kuzushi each...
Sudori...?
Peace,
JCS
RMKS at CSU
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:47:48 -0500
From: Margo Ballou
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage
Mike Bartman wrote:
>At 03:18 PM 3/25/02 -0500, Margo Ballou wrote:
>
>>I can never grab hard enough to satisfy my dojo-cho, but I do my
>>best. I don't grab anyone else's wrist with intent to hold as hard
>>as I can; people have to ask me to do that.
>
>Sounds like your dojo-cho is cheating...a strong (i.e. tense) grip is a lot
>easier to break out of, or use to control uke, than a relaxed "holding with
>ki" grip.
Strong is not the same as tense. I don't do locked grips, _period_. Locked
grips result in me getting hurt.
A tense grip is easy to break out of. A strong and relaxed grip is a lot more
challenging.
- Margo
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:03:19 -0800
From: Larry Novick
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
> > Are you talking about more than one kuzushi?
> > If so, I wonder if there are _any_ techniques
> > that consist of just one kuzushi each...
Hmm, interesting, my perspective on this is that, although we don't think of
this subject in the conventional way rather we think of it as a process of
unfolding and continual connection and tracking - if we did, I would say that
there is only "one 'continual' kuzushi" in every technique - if not, the
attacker has the opportunity to counter, freeze, initiate a second attack... any
number pf things that are not "desirable." Not always necessarily "possible to
achieve" but the ideal in my opinion.
LN
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 01:21:01 -0400
From: Charles Yeomans
Subject: Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
At 7:03 AM -0700 3/26/2002, Jun Akiyama wrote:
>Craig wrote:
> > A number of times I have been taught tenchi nage by first throwing
> > only with earth hand and then only with the heaven hand. Then you
> > put the two throws together to make tenchinage. I like techniques
> > where you are throwing the person in more than one way.
>
>Are you talking about more than one kuzushi? If so, I wonder if there
>are _any_ techniques that consist of just one kuzushi each...
Shomen ate, perhaps.
Charles Yeomans
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:22:25 -0800
From: Cindy
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
Julian Frost writes:
>On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Cindy wrote:
>
>> Hm, lots of food for thought there. I'm thinking there doesn't sound
>> like a lot of difference between the proffered arm for morotedori vs
>> ushiro ryokatatedori,
>
>It's the positioning of nage's arm, and nage's body that differentiates
>the two... for morote dori, nage stands somewhat square on to uke.
>For ushiro, his body is much more angled. Plus, nage can also offer the
>other arm behind his back, tempting uke to go grab it as if it were his
>idea all along. :-)
One thing we're taught with this, is if the uke *doesn't* grab the second
hand, then pivot back with the elbow into the uke's face. This seems
to be along the same idea of nage & uke reacting to attack/response.
Anyway, thanks for pointing this out, I've started looking for this in
practice & it's pretty interesting.
>> or is it that the nage chooses which by wehther or not he pivots as the
>> uke initially grabs the arm and the uke then responds to that?
>
>We don't pivot (turning our back on uke) when doing ushiro techniques, at
>least, not until after/just as uke finalizes the grab. We may move
>forwards as uke grabs, which effectively puts uke behind us, but we don't
>turn our back on uke.
YOu're right, I mixed that up. It's the uke that has to run around if he
wants to grab the other hand.
>It's the same thing with weapons... uke is supposed to see where the
>opening is and attack accordingly. A subtle dipping of the sword's tip and
>uke is supposed to see if the hands are being offered, or the head, or
>wherever.
Yeah, I started looking for htat, too. Whoa, sensory overload (okay,
hold the bokken like this, stand like that, okay now where in the *&%
were we in the sequence, oh and how is he dipping his sword...???). I
feel like I'm walking & chewing gum at the same time <grin>. I know,
practice & more practice!
--Cindy, working on it
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:14:39 +0000
From: Hooker Dennis
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
When you take the wrist make sure the little finger is over the heal of the
hand and the ring finger is in the joint of the wrist, locking the hand from
movement. Turn the wrist inward slightly and lock the elbow, bush up
slightly and lock the shoulder. This is not a sacrificial grab. If you do it
right it locks up uke's hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder and drives the
center off balance, He can nether raise the front foot off the floor to kick
nor can he hit with the other hand. You can throw or strike or kick. It is
quick, it is strong, it is effective but not meant to last forever. You
naturalize and finish. The only problem is most aikido students forget they
are attacking they only think about nage's throwing. There is teacher up in
the frozen northland with whom Jun studies that once said. " AIkido works,
yours don't, don't confuse the two"
Dennis Hooker
www.shindai.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:48:19 +0200
From: "James R. Acker"
Subject: Re: Grab my wrist was Re: Tenchinage (was Re: Any one know him?)
This description, and other times when I have also locked a limb on uke keep
reminding me of something and I can' quite remember what it is....maybe others
here can help...
When I was a kid I remember some kind of toy that if you sort of whipped, or
jiggled a bunch of small connected bits they "locked" and became like a pole. It
is like a nagging memory that I cannot quite see. But every time I get that good
type "lock" where the joints (I am guesing) are right in line and you can get
uke up on their toes...I get reminded of this.
Sorry about being so vague but maybe this strikes a chord with someone else?
Even if not, how many things can you think of that are like that correct "lock"?
Jim
------------------------------
Last updated on 13 Sep 2002