========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:47:58 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of White Wolf's World of DarknessSender: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness From: blake1001@TECHNOLOGIST.COM Subject: Data, Information, & Spheres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [One thing that isn't clearly covered in Mage is how magi manipulate information - other than hopping on the digital web, or mind controlling someone to type in something new, how do you change your grades or bank balance? What if it's on paper instead of electronic? How do you find out, using magick, what some arcane symbol means if there's no convienently knowledgeable victim around for a quick mindscan? That sort of thing... Well, here's some thoughts on the matter...] There's a lot of ways to aproach this problem. Entropy 5, Intellectual Entropy, allows you to destroy ideas and concepts, possibly throughout the world. That would certainly allow you to destroy or subtly alter information in any form, as the effect propegates through all minds and all media. But, that's rather using a nuke to swat a fly, and it mainly lets you /remove/ information... though removing a little can significantly alter the whole... Mind, of course lets you manipulate thought, which is, in a way, the purest form of information. However, though it's great for personal information, or information exchange among magi, it doesn't do anything with media of any kind. Forces will allow you to alter the information encoded on magnetic media and Matter will let you do the same for more convential types (like the printed word). But, that's not really manipulating so much as overwriting. Pure speculation leaving WW cannon far behind: You really have to ask yourself what information /is/. Information is not a word on a printed page or a bit string in one of a computer's registers. Those or just symbols, symbols that represent data. The shape of the number 5, or the bitstrings that represent it are simply symbolic, but the number 5 - the integer between 3 and 4 - is still not information, it's just data. The question inevitably is '5 of what?' Data presented in a context is information. The the characters '3' and '2' are symbols, the number 32 is data, the number 32 in a field that represents my age is information. To take it a step further, information perceived and remembered by a conscious mind is knowledge. See, you now /know/ how old I am. A mage with Mind 3 could read that knowledge in your mind and know how old I am. The sphere of Mind can affect knowledge (and, so can Entropy 5, in a specific way). Matter or Forces can affect the media that hold symbols. But, none of those spheres really affect Data or Information. So, back to the question. A symbol can convey data because each symbol corresponds to a specific piece of data. The binary number '1001' corresponds to the integer between 8 and 10, for instance. A piece of data can convey information only when it's placed in a context - /where/ it is determines what it really means. Thus, Correspondence, which deals with both spacial relationships and relationships among things, is the sphere that encompasses the manipulation of data and information. Which is as it should be, since it's the speciality sphere of the Virtual Adepts. Of course, there's nothing in the sphere rules that makes any obvious provision for that. ;) But, there's some starting points: Corr 1 lets you percieve the immediate relationships among things in your immediate vicinity. Corr 1 would let you do things like pick a given item out of a list instantly, or translate a text - if all the concepts in that text were already familiar to you. Corr 2 lets you follow connections among distant things. Thus you could determine the meaning of symbol by following the 'Chain' that connects it to the data it represents, translating a text containing unfamiliar concepts or proper nouns, for instance. Corr 3 gives you the 'Chain' effect that allows you to define relations among things. With that, you could actually manipulate information by changing the relations involved - you could change a text by changing the information associated with it (the symbols would change to conform to the new data) or encrypt it by scrambling or obsucring those relations. Corr 3 also gives you the ability to search the correspondence point, even if you don't have a direct link of any kind, thus, you could actually determine, for instance, the word for something in a language you don't actually speak. Corr 4 would let you create symbolic systems with multiple meanings or 'unbreakable' codes (cutting of all links to the meaning, rather like hiding yourself in a 'Bubble of Reality). Corr 5, of course, would let you break such codes... So, typical data-manipulation, reading, searching, sorting, modifying, and deleting, of data that's in your possession and control, could probably mostly be completed with Corr 1. Reading and searching data not under your control would be Corr 2, editing or deleting such data would be Corr 3. --- | Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-. http://www.oocities.org/Area51/1317 '-|--- | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:20:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness Sender: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness From: blake1001@TECHNOLOGIST.COM Subject: Re: Data, Information, & Spheres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 30 Jun 99, at 19:44, Frank G. Pitt wrote: > Good stuff as always, Blake. Thank you, it's still percolating, though, some of your comments, by the way are quite helpful... > >You really have to ask yourself what information /is/. > > >Data presented in a context is information. > > There are, of course, more precise technical definitions of information, and > you're missing the important point that even data in context does not > represent information if the information content is already known to the > person recieving the information. That's one of those more precise definitions, yes. ;) Actually, that was holding me back for a while. I finally hit upon pushing aspects of that definition onto 'knowledge,' to help get the spheres to fit. Mind encompases what happens in, well the mind, including the perception and interpretation of symbols that convey new knowledge or information. Perhaps I'd do better to squeeze what I was calling 'information' and 'data' into 'data' and what I was calling 'knowledge' information... thought that still wouldn't be that precise. Information is effectively new knowledge, after all. > >The the characters '3' and '2' are symbols, > >the number 32 is data, the number 32 in a > >field that represents my >age is information. > > This of course is _very_ dependant on context. > In many contexts, the fact that your age is 32 would be just data as well. > > >To take it a step further, information perceived and remembered by a > conscious mind is knowledge. > > Not so sure that I would make any distinction between information and > knowledge. One needs a "conscious mind" for there to be information as well. > One also needs a conscious mind to determine the context that changes data > into information. IRL, yes. When trying to work with the spheres, though, it presents a problem. Mind is a rather broad sphere, but it clearly doesn't have any dominion over paper and ink or bits and bytes, nor are ordinary computers and data storage devices (including books) either sentient or 'readable' by mind (nor should they be). > > See, you now /know/ how old I am. > >A mage with Mind 3 could read that knowledge > >in your mind and know how old I am. The > >sphere of Mind can affect knowledge (and, > >so can Entropy 5, in a specific way). Matter > >or Forces can affect the media that hold > >symbols. But, none of those spheres really > >affect Data or Information. > > Whilst the Spheres can't usually effect the _concept_ of, say, the number 1, > any particular symbolic representation of that number, including that stored > in your mind, can be affected by just about any of the spheres. For example, > to be crude, Forces blowing your head off destroys the representation of the > symbol in your mind. Indirectly, yes. I'm positing that, in addition to symbols in media, which could be altered by anything capable of affecting the medium and in addition to knowledge (or information) held by a conscious mind (obviously affected by mind, directly, and other exingencies like the death of the thinking being), there is also data (or information) extant in the universe independent of either... and, that it is the coresponding of symbols to data that allows things like language and electronic data storage to work... all in a mystical sense. > You argument would really only hold in a hypothetical "information world" > where "data" (as opposed to symbolic representations of data) actually > existed. Exactly the sort of thing to exist in an umbral world, but not > particualalry practical in the "real" world. Practical? Well, only to a mage. Magick is classified into the spheres, so too, can many mundane activities (being in effect the magick of the Consensus) be classified. In sphere terms, what is happening when data is sorted in a computer or words are printed in a book? Somehow I don't think that the mere inscription of symbols using pattern magick covers it adequately... Niether does mind, which covers only what's going one with the writers and readers of such. >Still, it would be a good idea > for a paradigm, as it embodies some basic laws of magic such as similarity. Well, I am dealing with Corr so similarity & contagion were bound to crop up. > It wouild imply that all representations of the number '1' in the real world > would somehow share the same space in the data world, thus changing it in > the data world would affect all representations Yes! Though, it's possible to conceptualize this 'data world' as consisting of the set of all unrealized physical manifestations of concepts (Odyllic forms) and it's location as the Correpsondence point. From there, all symbols are linked to the apropriate concept, changing the linking of a given instance of a symbol would be possible, changing the concept itself - as Parmenides would doubtless agree - is not really possible, since the 'data world' consists of all possible concepts, changing/adding/deleting a concept is not possible. Changing the relations of symbols to concepts, though, would be... > >Thus, Correspondence, which deals with both > >spacial relationships and relationships among > >things, is the sphere that encompasses the > >manipulation of data and information. > > But not the _only _ sphere that does so. The one that would do so directly, though. > Also, that argument implies that correspondence can be used to change the > _meaning_ of data. It would manipulate the meaning of symbols, as a side effect of manipulating data, I suppose. It would not, though actually change meanings on a global level, only for a given instance... > This would be a dangerous thing to allow, as it fundamentally affects not > only the whole concept of magic, but the world itself. Definitely a reality > hacker's concept. What a coincidence... > Though it's an interesting idea. Almost worth a novel, at least a short > story. > > Redefine the meaning of the data representing gravity... > Throw yourself at the ground and miss. Aside from the Hitchhicker's Guide reference, The Secret of the Sixth Magic has a similar idea... > > Which is as it should be, since it's the speciality sphere of the Virtual > Adepts. > > > >Corr 3 gives you > >the 'Chain' effect that allows you to define > >relations among things. With that, you could > >actually manipulate information by > >changing the relations involved - you could change > >a text by changing the information associated with it (the > >symbols would change to conform to the new data) > > This would be very useful to erase or change all traces of a partciular > piece of information without knowing where it was stored. However, that's > such a powerful effect I'd make it at least Corr 5 if not higher, as it has > exactly the same effect as the Entropy 5 effect you mentioned at the start I agree, I intended that a variation of Chain would let you alter the meaning of a given instance of a symbol, not all instances, which would actually have an effect almost indistinguishable (or perhaps even identical) to physically changing the symbol itself. > >or encrypt it by scrambling or obsucring those relations. Corr 3 also > gives you the ability to search the >correspondence point, even if you don't > have a direct link of any kind, thus, you could actually determine, for > >instance, the word for something in a language you don't actually speak. > Corr 4 would let you create symbolic >systems with multiple meanings or > 'unbreakable' codes (cutting of all links to the meaning, rather like hiding > >yourself in a 'Bubble of Reality). Corr 5, of course, would let you break > such codes... > > Though one has to point out that Entropy at a lower level allows the same > thing. Of course. The same task can generally be aproached in different ways through several different spheres. > > So, typical data-manipulation, reading, searching, sorting > > modifying, and deleting, of data that's in your possession > >and control, could probably mostly be completed with Corr 1 > > Or mundanely using Computer skill. Which is simply a static application of that sphere, yes. > Sometimes it's easier not to use magic Sometimes? Almost always - safer too... > The big problem, though, with using Correspeondence magic to do these things > is that your paradigm would have to allow it. Someone who was not a Virtual > Adept or similar paradigm, or did not have Computer skill, would be unlikley > to be able to consider using Correspondence for this. Not really. It's valid, with different paradigmatic details, for any aproach to correpsondence. A mystic who subscribed to Sympath & Contagion, rather than the correspondence point, for instance, could use that principle to discover the meaning of a Glyph, most obviously, if it were a pictogram that bore some similarity to what it represent, but also because it has a strong and direct link to the concept in the intent of the person who drew it... Another example would be psychometrists, who are able to tell you details about a person associated with an object they handle. They don't just get to look at him through a correspondence window, or rewind through his life, they get immediate impressions or facts about the person. > For example, a Spirit mage would employ Spirirt to summon an appropriate > spirit to either retrieve or change data. Well, if he happened to know a geomid, maybe... But, agian, that's merely an alternate and indirect way of accomplishing the same result, not the same effect... Thanks for the input. Sorry about the information definition, it's always hard to gauge how technical you should get, or how true you should be to RL definitions, with an unknown audience. ;) --- | Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-. http://www.oocities.org/Area51/1317 '-|--- | --------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com ================================================================= " 900: PRINT "This Digital Web Sector interfaces with Consensual Reality thru GeoCities." 901: PRINT "Move one step closer to Virtual Ascension by getting your own Free Home Page ." 990: PRINT "All writing in this site (excepting Trademarks of White Wolf Game Studios) is Copyrighted, 94, 97, 98, 2001 by Tony Vargas" 999: END OF FILE