=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:47:58 -0400
Reply-To: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness
Sender: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness
From: blake1001@TECHNOLOGIST.COM
Subject: Data, Information, & Spheres
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
[One thing that isn't clearly covered in Mage is how magi manipulate
information - other than hopping on the digital web, or mind
controlling someone to type in something new, how do you change your
grades or bank balance? What if it's on paper instead of electronic?
How do you find out, using magick, what some arcane symbol means if
there's no convienently knowledgeable victim around for a quick
mindscan? That sort of thing... Well, here's some thoughts on the
matter...]
There's a lot of ways to aproach this problem. Entropy 5,
Intellectual Entropy, allows you to destroy ideas and concepts,
possibly throughout the world. That would certainly allow you to
destroy or subtly alter information in any form, as the effect
propegates through all minds and all media. But, that's rather using
a nuke to swat a fly, and it mainly lets you /remove/ information...
though removing a little can significantly alter the whole...
Mind, of course lets you manipulate thought, which is, in a way, the
purest form of information. However, though it's great for personal
information, or information exchange among magi, it doesn't do
anything with media of any kind.
Forces will allow you to alter the information encoded on magnetic
media and Matter will let you do the same for more convential types
(like the printed word). But, that's not really manipulating so much
as overwriting.
Pure speculation leaving WW cannon far behind:
You really have to ask yourself what information /is/. Information
is not a word on a printed page or a bit string in one of a
computer's registers. Those or just symbols, symbols that represent
data. The shape of the number 5, or the bitstrings that represent it
are simply symbolic, but the number 5 - the integer between 3 and 4 -
is still not information, it's just data. The question inevitably is
'5 of what?' Data presented in a context is information. The the
characters '3' and '2' are symbols, the number 32 is data, the number
32 in a field that represents my age is information. To take it a
step further, information perceived and remembered by a conscious
mind is knowledge. See, you now /know/ how old I am. A mage with
Mind 3 could read that knowledge in your mind and know how old I am.
The sphere of Mind can affect knowledge (and, so can Entropy 5, in a
specific way). Matter or Forces can affect the media that hold
symbols. But, none of those spheres really affect Data or Information.
So, back to the question. A symbol can convey data because each
symbol corresponds to a specific piece of data. The binary number
'1001' corresponds to the integer between 8 and 10, for instance. A
piece of data can convey information only when it's placed in a
context - /where/ it is determines what it really means. Thus,
Correspondence, which deals with both spacial relationships and
relationships among things, is the sphere that encompasses the
manipulation of data and information.
Which is as it should be, since it's the speciality sphere of the
Virtual Adepts.
Of course, there's nothing in the sphere rules that makes any obvious
provision for that. ;) But, there's some starting points: Corr 1
lets you percieve the immediate relationships among things in your
immediate vicinity. Corr 1 would let you do things like pick a given
item out of a list instantly, or translate a text - if all the
concepts in that text were already familiar to you. Corr 2 lets you
follow connections among distant things. Thus you could determine
the meaning of symbol by following the 'Chain' that connects it to
the data it represents, translating a text containing unfamiliar
concepts or proper nouns, for instance. Corr 3 gives you the 'Chain'
effect that allows you to define relations among things. With that,
you could actually manipulate information by changing the relations
involved - you could change a text by changing the information
associated with it (the symbols would change to conform to the new
data) or encrypt it by scrambling or obsucring those relations.
Corr 3 also gives you the ability to search the correspondence point,
even if you don't have a direct link of any kind, thus, you could
actually determine, for instance, the word for something in a language
you don't actually speak. Corr 4 would let you create symbolic
systems with multiple meanings or 'unbreakable' codes (cutting of all
links to the meaning, rather like hiding yourself in a 'Bubble of
Reality). Corr 5, of course, would let you break such codes...
So, typical data-manipulation, reading, searching, sorting,
modifying, and deleting, of data that's in your possession and
control, could probably mostly be completed with Corr 1. Reading and
searching data not under your control would be Corr 2, editing or
deleting such data would be Corr 3.
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.oocities.org/Area51/1317 '-|---
|
=========================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:20:00 -0400
Reply-To: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness
Sender: Discussion of White Wolf's World of Darkness
From: blake1001@TECHNOLOGIST.COM
Subject: Re: Data, Information, & Spheres
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 30 Jun 99, at 19:44, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Good stuff as always, Blake.
Thank you, it's still percolating, though, some of your comments, by
the way are quite helpful...
> >You really have to ask yourself what information /is/.
>
> >Data presented in a context is information.
>
> There are, of course, more precise technical definitions of
information, and
> you're missing the important point that even data in context does
not
> represent information if the information content is already known
to the
> person recieving the information.
That's one of those more precise definitions, yes. ;) Actually,
that was holding me back for a while. I finally hit upon pushing
aspects of that definition onto 'knowledge,' to help get the spheres
to fit. Mind encompases what happens in, well the mind, including
the perception and interpretation of symbols that convey new
knowledge or information.
Perhaps I'd do better to squeeze what I was calling 'information' and
'data' into 'data' and what I was calling 'knowledge' information...
thought that still wouldn't be that precise. Information is
effectively new knowledge, after all.
> >The the characters '3' and '2' are symbols,
> >the number 32 is data, the number 32 in a
> >field that represents my >age is information.
>
> This of course is _very_ dependant on context.
> In many contexts, the fact that your age is 32 would be just data
as well.
>
> >To take it a step further, information perceived and remembered by
a
> conscious mind is knowledge.
>
> Not so sure that I would make any distinction between information
and
> knowledge. One needs a "conscious mind" for there to be information
as well.
> One also needs a conscious mind to determine the context that
changes data
> into information.
IRL, yes. When trying to work with the spheres, though, it presents
a problem. Mind is a rather broad sphere, but it clearly doesn't
have any dominion over paper and ink or bits and bytes, nor are
ordinary computers and data storage devices (including books) either
sentient or 'readable' by mind (nor should they be).
> > See, you now /know/ how old I am.
> >A mage with Mind 3 could read that knowledge
> >in your mind and know how old I am. The
> >sphere of Mind can affect knowledge (and,
> >so can Entropy 5, in a specific way). Matter
> >or Forces can affect the media that hold
> >symbols. But, none of those spheres really
> >affect Data or Information.
>
> Whilst the Spheres can't usually effect the _concept_ of, say, the
number 1,
> any particular symbolic representation of that number, including
that stored
> in your mind, can be affected by just about any of the spheres. For
example,
> to be crude, Forces blowing your head off destroys the
representation of the
> symbol in your mind.
Indirectly, yes. I'm positing that, in addition to symbols in media,
which could be altered by anything capable of affecting the medium
and in addition to knowledge (or information) held by a conscious
mind (obviously affected by mind, directly, and other exingencies
like the death of the thinking being), there is also data (or
information) extant in the universe independent of either... and,
that it is the coresponding of symbols to data that allows things
like language and electronic data storage to work... all in a
mystical sense.
> You argument would really only hold in a hypothetical "information
world"
> where "data" (as opposed to symbolic representations of data)
actually
> existed. Exactly the sort of thing to exist in an umbral world,
but not
> particualalry practical in the "real" world.
Practical? Well, only to a mage. Magick is classified into the
spheres, so too, can many mundane activities (being in effect the
magick of the Consensus) be classified. In sphere terms, what is
happening when data is sorted in a computer or words are printed in a
book? Somehow I don't think that the mere inscription of symbols
using pattern magick covers it adequately... Niether does mind, which
covers only what's going one with the writers and readers of such.
>Still, it would be a good idea
> for a paradigm, as it embodies some basic laws of magic such as
similarity.
Well, I am dealing with Corr so similarity & contagion were bound to
crop up.
> It wouild imply that all representations of the number '1' in the
real world
> would somehow share the same space in the data world, thus changing
it in
> the data world would affect all representations
Yes! Though, it's possible to conceptualize this 'data world' as
consisting of the set of all unrealized physical manifestations of
concepts (Odyllic forms) and it's location as the Correpsondence
point. From there, all symbols are linked to the apropriate concept,
changing the linking of a given instance of a symbol would be
possible, changing the concept itself - as Parmenides would doubtless
agree - is not really possible, since the 'data world' consists of
all possible concepts, changing/adding/deleting a concept is not
possible. Changing the relations of symbols to concepts, though,
would be...
> >Thus, Correspondence, which deals with both
> >spacial relationships and relationships among
> >things, is the sphere that encompasses the
> >manipulation of data and information.
>
> But not the _only _ sphere that does so.
The one that would do so directly, though.
> Also, that argument implies that correspondence can be used to
change the
> _meaning_ of data.
It would manipulate the meaning of symbols, as a side effect of
manipulating data, I suppose. It would not, though actually change
meanings on a global level, only for a given instance...
> This would be a dangerous thing to allow, as it fundamentally
affects not
> only the whole concept of magic, but the world itself. Definitely a
reality
> hacker's concept.
What a coincidence...
> Though it's an interesting idea. Almost worth a novel, at least a
short
> story.
>
> Redefine the meaning of the data representing gravity...
> Throw yourself at the ground and miss.
Aside from the Hitchhicker's Guide reference, The Secret of the Sixth
Magic has a similar idea...
> > Which is as it should be, since it's the speciality sphere of the
Virtual
> Adepts.
> >
> >Corr 3 gives you
> >the 'Chain' effect that allows you to define
> >relations among things. With that, you could
> >actually manipulate information by
> >changing the relations involved - you could change
> >a text by changing the information associated with it (the
> >symbols would change to conform to the new data)
>
> This would be very useful to erase or change all traces of a
partciular
> piece of information without knowing where it was stored. However,
that's
> such a powerful effect I'd make it at least Corr 5 if not higher,
as it has
> exactly the same effect as the Entropy 5 effect you mentioned at
the start
I agree, I intended that a variation of Chain would let you alter the
meaning of a given instance of a symbol, not all instances, which
would actually have an effect almost indistinguishable (or perhaps
even identical) to physically changing the symbol itself.
> >or encrypt it by scrambling or obsucring those relations. Corr 3
also
> gives you the ability to search the >correspondence point, even if
you don't
> have a direct link of any kind, thus, you could actually determine,
for
> >instance, the word for something in a language you don't actually
speak.
> Corr 4 would let you create symbolic >systems with multiple
meanings or
> 'unbreakable' codes (cutting of all links to the meaning, rather
like hiding
> >yourself in a 'Bubble of Reality). Corr 5, of course, would let
you break
> such codes...
>
> Though one has to point out that Entropy at a lower level allows
the same
> thing.
Of course. The same task can generally be aproached in different
ways through several different spheres.
> > So, typical data-manipulation, reading, searching, sorting
> > modifying, and deleting, of data that's in your possession
> >and control, could probably mostly be completed with Corr 1
>
> Or mundanely using Computer skill.
Which is simply a static application of that sphere, yes.
> Sometimes it's easier not to use magic
Sometimes? Almost always - safer too...
> The big problem, though, with using Correspeondence magic to do
these things
> is that your paradigm would have to allow it. Someone who was not a
Virtual
> Adept or similar paradigm, or did not have Computer skill, would be
unlikley
> to be able to consider using Correspondence for this.
Not really. It's valid, with different paradigmatic details, for any
aproach to correpsondence.
A mystic who subscribed to Sympath & Contagion, rather than the
correspondence point, for instance, could use that principle to
discover the meaning of a Glyph, most obviously, if it were a
pictogram that bore some similarity to what it represent, but also
because it has a strong and direct link to the concept in the intent
of the person who drew it...
Another example would be psychometrists, who are able to tell you
details about a person associated with an object they handle. They
don't just get to look at him through a correspondence window, or
rewind through his life, they get immediate impressions or facts
about the person.
> For example, a Spirit mage would employ Spirirt to summon an
appropriate
> spirit to either retrieve or change data.
Well, if he happened to know a geomid, maybe... But, agian, that's
merely an alternate and indirect way of accomplishing the same
result, not the same effect...
Thanks for the input.
Sorry about the information definition, it's always hard to gauge how
technical you should get, or how true you should be to RL
definitions, with an unknown audience. ;)
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.oocities.org/Area51/1317 '-|---
|
---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
=================================================================
"
900: PRINT "This Digital Web Sector interfaces with Consensual Reality
thru GeoCities."
901: PRINT "Move one step closer to Virtual Ascension by getting your own
Free Home Page ."
990: PRINT "All writing in this site (excepting Trademarks of White Wolf
Game Studios) is Copyrighted, 94, 97, 98, 2001 by Tony Vargas"
999: END OF FILE