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Session Start: Fri Oct 17 00:37:23 1997
*** Now talking in #TheWizardsWay
*** Watcher sets mode: +o GrayMind


 what do you think about channeling?
 I wonder about the human need to personify the 
  "spirits" that come to speak through us
 Oh that was the ascended master such & such who came 
  & spoke through me
 what do you think about channeling?
 i don't buy much of it, when put that way
* GrayMind nods
 The more details & words people start giving to this 
  channeled wisdom, the further it gets from the wisdom
 IMO
 but there is communication, how we define it is another 
   matter
 True - and we do the best we can with them
   matter
   "names" are a human construct, and that they use names only 
   to humor us.
 I'm glad of it.
 oh?
 Glad that there is a means of translation, however 
  faulty it may be
 I think every time we say anything that spirit is 
  speking through us
 thats an interesting position, gray, how do you define 
   "spirit"?
 CNH - rather than define spirit, let's just say that 
  our entire perceptual world - is but a subset of it.
 Nothing we see is not spirit, though spirit is more 
  encompasing
 how does free will fit in your picture?
 Simple
 We are the spirit, not JUST this body
 We are the spirit, not JUST our thoughts
 Would "spirit" be responsible for, say, the holacoust?
 Yes
 I can't understand the reasons behind it
 But, that is from this limited view.
 I don't accept your definition of "spirit", but thats not 
   to say that mine is better than yours
 I think we are a part of creation, but are not the creator, or even a 
   part of the creator, although the creator can be in us.
 That is a very common view
 The separation of creator & created
 well, some of us are more common than others :)
 joining the two is a common new age philosophy, but i 
   don't buy it.
 I did not mean to imply judgement - only a numbers 
  thing
 i know, hence the :)
 :)
 your view does not allow for "evil", and i believe that 
   there is evil in the world.
 evil as action, not as thing
 The way I see it, those that act "evily" do so in 
  ignorance of their true nature.  Therefore, they are not 
  truely evil.
 i can accept that, but the action is still evil
 im not saying the person is necessrily evil
 If someone kills another in cold blood, is that 
  action evil?
 but i have a hard time not defining hitler or idi amin 
   dada as evil
 my definition says that the act of killing another "in 
   cold blood" is evil
 The way to see them as not evil, is to realise the 
  illusion of this world.
 We say that it is an evil act, because we see that 
  the dead person has "lost" their life
 perhaps, as i said, i can buy that *they* are not evil, 
   but i can't accept that the acts were not.
 no, not a matter of losing life only
  illusion of this world.
 being despotic, so to speak :)
 :)
 okay - mental game
 If you did believe that we were creator & created, 
  could you see how killing another would be like killing 
  yourself.
 If i forced you to accept a million dollars from me, that 
   too would be wrong.
 I cannot use my wisdom and experience to make you do 
   something for your own good, that too would be wrong.
 hmm
 it is "like" killing oneself
 Is not the killer, also the killed
 So the killed also continues
 hmm
 both creatures
 both of the same creator, and both may have the creator in 
   them, but still separate being
 I think we must agree to disagree on this one.
 I agree to that.
 as your philosphy and experience tell you one thing
* GrayMind smiles
 while mine tell me another
 May I suggest you read some of John Shea's books
   fascinating man, fascinating stories
 The name sounds very familiar
 I can't place a book to the name though
* GrayMind will look into it.
 read some of his stories, but by all means read some of 
   the poetry.  I'll get you the name of the poetry books.
* GrayMind definitely has some reading to do before he'll have 
  enough of a conceptual background to write his book.
 Let me tell you one of his stories of a sufi master whom he 
   had hired to do a seminar on storytelling
 to a group of catholics
 this was an old friend of his, who was perpetually out of 
   work
 during the first break, shea was talking to one of the 
   organizers
 when somebody came up to them and said "storyteller got in 
   fight with nun"
 Shea says, What?, and the guy repeats, storyteller got in 
   fight with nun
 so, shea thought he better go see about it
 he went into the chapel, where both the sufi and the nun 
   were.  There was a goup of people around the nun, all
   looking very angry, so shea figured it would be best to talk 
   to the sufi instead of the nun.
 the sufi master was in the chapel, in the lotus position, 
   meditating, and saying "ohmmmmm"
 finally, Shea ran out of patience, and tapped him on the 
   shoulder.
 but the sufi would not stop to talk to him
 at the end of the day, shea was driving his friend to the 
   airport (this happened in chicago, the sufi was from 
   california)
 and Jack told the guy that they were good friends, and 
   that the fellow was always asking for work, but how could he 
   hire him if he got into fights with the nuns who were 
   supposed to be listening to him.
 and further, if he refused to even talk to shea about the 
   incident.
 the sufi responded that he was not refusing to talk to 
   shea, but that he had been hired to tell the audience about 
   stories about god.
 and that that was a sacred task.
 therefore, if he was going to perform a sacred task, he 
   must be pure in order to do so correctly,
 and that it was wrong to have gotten into the fight with 
   the nun
 that he had made himself impure
 therefore, he had to cleanse himself
 and it took all the meditation time that he had to do so
 he simply could not stop to talk about it
 Gray, the important thing here is that he had to cleanse 
   himself
 if all were spirit, then cleansing would not be necessary, 
   as it would all be part of some greater plan
 thats a story of an experience of god.
 And I talk too much.
* GrayMind chuckles
 as learned and wise as any of us may become
 as 
 "nice" as you or I may be
 neither of us is god, though hopefully, we both have god 
   within us. (i think, perhaps, we do).
 Do you think there is anything that does not have god 
  within it?
 yes, we can choose to reject god
 do you remember the OT story of the prophet who was 
   seeking the experience of god?
 he went to the mountain, and he witnessed an earthquake
 but god was not the earthquake
 and he witnessed a mighty storm
 but god was not the storm
 etc. etc.
* GrayMind nods
 but then he heard the sound of silence
 The "Thunderous Silence"
 and fell on his face to worship god
 the better translation from the greek is sound of silence, 
   or so i gather from my studies - i don't do greek.
* GrayMind shrugs
 I recently heard a reference to the thunderous thing
 Just interpretations
 interpretations of interpretations
 doesnt really matter, just being picky
 he found god in the silence, not in the other things, 
   which were examples of god's power.
 I of course would throw some justs out there
 not just the earthquake ...
 yes, you would.
 And the reason "god" was in the silence, was because 
  only then are we not setting limitations
 and someday, we will find out which one of us is right.
 How do you see your spirit?
 rephrase, please.
 Do you see your spirit as sitting side by side with 
  God some day?
 no
 as being part of, yet separte from god
 Ok - If you are not the creator, what do you become 
  as you move further down your spiritual growth
 more wise, more knowledgable, more learned, .  . . more 
   worthy
 worthy of what?
 of being with *I AM*
 being with *I AM*, but not *BEING* the *I AM*
 yes
 if we shined a flashlight on the sun
 the light of the flashlight would add to the brilliance of 
   the sun
 but if we could then remove that particular piece of 
   energy that came from the flashlight
 that would be analagous to my belief
 Oh, but Larry!!  What if you WERE the sun!  What if 
  you were, and just didn't realize it?
 nothing of what i might do would be different
*** }Orris{ (immortal@138.77.39.145) has joined #Thewizardsway
 except for my opinion of myself
<}Orris{> Greetings from planet earth >:}
 It seems to me in your way of thinking, that you move 
  so far along the path of neutralizing dualities.  That in the 
  end, there are no dualities save that between the creator & 
  the created.
 Greetings from the singularity
 Why stop there?
 Why not become the whole?
 it isn't a matter of why not, to my philosophy
 its a matter of what is
* GrayMind nods
 as creature, i am not infinite, therefore i am not god
-> *}Orris{* I see the creator & the created as a whole, CNH 
   sees the created as separate from the creator.  That's what 
   we've been talking about.  We've agreed to disagree.
 but hey, maybe you are :)
*}Orris{* oh
 I see our spiritual evolution as changing our concept 
  of "I"
 perhaps
*** }Orris{ is now known as Tchetta
 and as i said, someday, we will know which one of us is 
   right
* Tchetta places his money odds on to Gray
 We say I, and mean our name, or our body.  Then we 
  say I and mean our race.  Or maybe we say I and mean the 
  spirit that has been through several incarnations...
 Just becomming more and more encompasing
 Well, CNH - I think we've run this one out
 Yes, someday we will know
 Tchetta may be as foolish as his presumption of speaking 
   for earth.
 its late, my friend.
* GrayMind nods.
 some of you have to get up in the morning.
 it seems to me its just a limited perception thing... 
   one can say 'im tired', or 'i am Orris', or 'i exist' or 'i 
   am strong', and all of them refer to different aspects 
 good night
 It is time for me to turn to a good book, and settled 
  down for slumber.
 and god's peace be with you.
 Take Care Larry!
 night
 btw; the Tchetta = forever/eternal (Egyptian)
 spelt TchT(TA)
 Oh
 }Orris{  - then that is quite an appropriate name for 
  the point you were making
 :}
 Well, I'm sorry to leave just as you arrive.
 But, it is 3 in the morning here
 sleep good
 Thank you
 Peace be with you.
Session Close: Fri Oct 17 03:14:10 1997

ek.
* GrayMind shrugs
 Why stop there?
 Why not become the whole?
 it isn't a matter of why not, to my philosophy
<
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