LOS ALBANESES TAMBIEN SON VICTIMAS DEL OCK:
ENTREVISTAS A ALBANESES PERSEGUIDOS POR SUS SUPUESTOS LIBERADORES DEL OCK. (International Action Center)
IF THEY FIND ME, THEY WILL KILL ME: Interviews with pro-Yugoslav Albanian Refugees from Kosovo
Transcribed and edited by Gregory Elich
Interviews with Faik Jasari, Corin Ismali, and
Fatmir Seholi, members of the Kosovo Democratic Initiative.
Comments by Biljana Koteska, First Secretary of the United
Nations Law Projects Center in Belgrade, Bajram Haliti, Secretary
of the Republic of Serbia Secretariat for Development of
Information on the Languages of National Minorities, and editor
of "Ahimsa", and Jovan Damjanovic, President of the
Roma organization in Yugoslavia
Interviewed by Barry Lituchy, Joe Friendly, Ayman El-Sayed, Ken Freeland, Jeff Goldberg and Gregory Elich, members of the North American Solidarity with Yugoslavia Delegation
Belgrade, August 9, 1999
[Lituchy] Please introduce yourself and tell us what your position is in the government.
[Jasari] Faik Jasari, from Gnilane. I was a member of the Temporary Executive Board [in Kosovo] and I was a representative [at peace negotiations] in Rambouillet. I am also president of a political party, the Kosovo Democratic Initiative.
[Lituchy] Would you tell us a little bit about that organization?
[Jasari] Anyone can join this political party, because it is open. Not only Albanians, but also people from other ethnic groups may join.
[Lituchy] Did this political party run in the previous elections in Kosovo?
[Jasari] No, this is a new political party, formed only last year, so we have not yet run in elections.
This was the only Albanian party to stand by the government, and our political position was for Kosovo-Metohija to stay in Yugoslavia, organize humanitarian aid for people, and to oppose secession.
[Freeland] How many people does this party represent?
[Lituchy] What kind of support does it have?
[Jasari] We have 30,000 members. We helped people with food, medicine, blankets and so on. During the NATO aggression, we tried to encourage people to stay in Kosovo, not to leave. If anyone had trouble, we tried to help them.
[Lituchy] Where are the supporters now from this political party? Are they living in Kosovo, or are they in exile from Kosovo?
[Jasari] About 10,000 members of this party have left Kosovo, and about 20,000 remain in Kosovo. Many of them have been kidnapped or tortured by the KLA. The refugees from Kosovo went to Serbia and also to Montenegro.
[Lituchy] Are you also a refugee, or an exile from Kosovo?
[Jasari] Yes, of course. I had to leave Kosovo on June 18th, along with other members of my political party.
[Lituchy] Tell us how you left or were forced out of Kosovo.
[Jasari] Members of the KLA were showing photos of my family and me to people, trying to find us. I am now at the top of the list of people the KLA is looking for.
[Freeland] Did they post these pictures around, where everyone could see them?
[Koteska] No, no. They were only taking the pictures, from home to home.
[Jasari] One of my colleagues in our party was kidnapped, and we still do not know anything of his fate.
[Lituchy] What was his name?
[Jasari] Cafre Cuka. He is from Pec.
[Lituchy] And he’s missing?
[Jasari] He was kidnapped two months ago.
[Lituchy] And he was a member of your organization?
[Koteska] Yes.
[Lituchy] Tell us, on June 18th, did you then leave with your family?
[Jasari] Yes.
[Lituchy] What did you leave behind?
[Jasari] We left our flat, along with all of our furniture and belongings. My wife and I worked for 34 years, and now we have nothing. Nothing. My son and daughter-in-law are now in Nis. My wife and I are in Belgrade. We have nothing to wear. We have nothing from our flat.
[Lituchy] No assistance from the United States?
[Jasari] We received no assistance from any organization. We live in [name deleted for Jasari’s safety]. The government of the Republic of Serbia arranged that. Three members of my family live in Nis, and they live on their own.
[Lituchy] Were any members of your family killed, injured, or attacked?
[Jasari] No, no one from my family. The KLA did not have time because we escaped from Kosovo. I had bodyguards, so that was helpful.
[Lituchy] Are you afraid for your life, even now?
[Jasari] Yes. I am afraid. I’ve already told you that the KLA is looking for me, even now.
[Lituchy] Have they asked for you to be executed? Is there a death warrant on you?
[Jasari] If they find me, they will kill me.
[Freeland] This is a question asked for the sake of formality. Was KFOR made aware of this situation or the situation with any of your family members?
[Jasari] I think KFOR does nothing to protect us. They don’t do their job.
[Lituchy] Did you have any discussions with KFOR at all?
[Jasari] I sent an open letter to Mr. [UN special representative for Kosovo Bernard] Kouchner. I wanted to visit with him and discuss the situation in Kosovo and with my party, but I received no response. Where is democracy and pluralism in Kosovo? I can’t go there. I can’t take part in the political process. Where is democracy?
[Lituchy] Approximately how many Albanians were forced out of Kosovo by the KLA?
[Jasari] About 150,000 Albanians were forced out of Kosovo by the KLA. We don’t know the number of people who were killed or kidnapped by the KLA.
[Lituchy] Is there an approximate number?
[Jasari] I think about 200 Albanians were killed by the KLA.
[Lituchy] What do you think was KFOR’s purpose in coming to Kosovo?
[Jasari] They have no good reason to be there. Given the way KFOR operates now, they can do nothing.
[Lituchy] Tell us a little bit about the KLA. What do you know about the KLA, its origins…?
[Jasari] Initially, the KLA was a separatist organization, and then grew into a military organization. They killed loyal Albanians, Serbs, and all people who wanted Kosovo to stay in Serbia. They also killed Albanians who held public office.
[Lituchy] Who are the leaders of the KLA?
[Jasari] The leader is Hasim Thaci, but [Ibrahim] Rugova, [Bujar] Bukoshi and [Adem] Demaci have the same politics. Mr. Thaci performed a role at Rambouillet, to carry out orders from the US. The U.S. gave him that role.
[Lituchy] What about Demaci? Who is he and where does he come from?
[Jasari] Mr. Demaci was the president of the KLA. He appointed himself to the position.
[Lituchy] Did you ever meet his man?
[Jasari] No.
[Lituchy] He was in jail for some time.
[Jasari] Twenty-eight years.
[Lituchy] How old is he? About 50?
[Jasari] About 65 years old.
[Lituchy] Were his parents Nazis in World War II?
[Jasari] No, I don’t know.
[Lituchy] But he is from the Decani region.
[Jasari] Mr. Demaci is from Podujevo.
[Seholi] The village Ljubce. We met each other about three months ago.
[Lituchy] You and Demaci?
[Seholi] Yes.
[Lituchy] And what happened at that meeting?
[Seholi] In my profession as journalist, I had a conversation with him on March 23rd this year. Mr. Rugova saw my video on television, and asked me to speak with him personally.
[Lituchy] What did he want to know?
[Seholi] He wanted to be on television, to ask Serbian people not to leave Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Demaci?!
[Seholi] And he wanted 10,000 Deutsche Marks for that interview….. [laughter] It’s true. We didn’t give him that money because we didn’t have money ourselves. I think all of them worked that angle for money.
[Lituchy] Before we interview these two gentlemen, I’d like to ask one or two more questions of the President here, about Rambouillet. What happened at Rambouillet?
[Jasari] The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was always for peace. During 1998, the government attempted to meet with KLA leaders 17 times, but the KLA leaders refused to attend. When Western countries asked Yugoslavia to meet the KLA in Rambouillet, Yugoslavia sent representatives.
[Lituchy] Did the representatives from Yugoslavia and the representatives from the KLA ever meet face-to-face?
[Jasari] Only once, at the first meeting with Jacques Chirac, did the two delegations meet.
[Lituchy] That was like an introductory meeting?
[Koteska] Yes.
[Lituchy] Why were there no negotiations?
[Jasari] Our representatives attempted, every day, to meet them face-to-face, but they refused.
[Lituchy] Why?
[Jasari] Because they did only what the United States told them to do.
[Lituchy] So that in other words, the United States was deciding how the negotiations were going and who was to meet with whom. Did you ever walk up to one of the KLA people and say, ‘why can’t we discuss this’?
[Jasari] No, we couldn’t even meet them in the hotel. We only had meetings with American and British officials, but not with them. We could only talk with their Western mentors.
.[Lituchy] Who did you meet with from the United States?
[Jasari] We met with Ms. [Madeleine] Albright, Mr. [James] Rubin and Mr. [James] Hill.
[Lituchy] What did they talk about, what did they tell you?
[Jasari] They told us to sign our names to the paper drafted by the United States. In this paper it was written that Kosovo must be a republic. The paper had the same aim as what the KLA representatives told them. At first, they thought that the delegation from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia would not go to Rambouillet. Later, they saw that was not true, and when they also saw that not only Serbs, but also Roma, Albanian and Egyptian representatives were in our delegation, they were shocked.
[Lituchy] The Americans were shocked?
[Koteska] Yes.
[Jasari] Only three Serbian representatives and one Montenegrin were in our delegation.
[Lituchy] Did you have any personal discussion or conversation with Albright or Rubin?
[Jasari] No, not alone, but also with Nikola Sainovic, Ratko Markovic, our whole delegation.
[Lituchy] What was your impression of Albright or Rubin?
[Jasari] I think they are not human people, they are not democratic.
[Lituchy] What was the purpose of the Rambouillet accord?
[Jasari] The representatives of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia went to Rambouillet to find a peaceful solution, but that was not the result.
[Lituchy] Did Yugoslavia make the right decision not to sign?
[Jasari] The Yugoslav government, many years ago, gave to the Albanian people all rights: human rights, right to education, property rights, all rights that every nation in Yugoslavia had. They were denied only the possibility of secession. All Albanian political parties could freely function in Kosovo, but not separatism. [French Foreign Minister Hubert] Vedrine, [British Foreign Secretary] Robin Cook and Albright told secessionist Albanians in Kosovo that everything will be fine in Rambouillet, and that any agreement will be in their favor, and they will get everything they want. But they didn’t ask other nationalities in Kosovo what they want. I told them that the KLA does not represent the opinion of all Albanian people, and that there are three other Albanian political parties who have a different view, as do Romas, Serbs, Muslims and other nationalities. They would not listen to me. They would not listen to anyone.
[Elich] When you returned for the Paris conference, would you discuss what kind of negotiations took place there?
[Jasari] In Paris, the representatives of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did not sign the paper, but the KLA representatives did sign. Albright told them, whether you sign or not, Kosovo will be a republic. We saw that when Albright was in Kosovo, she embraced and gave a kiss to Hasim Thaci, the leader of the terrorists. The Albanian representatives did not speak English, Serbo-Croatian, or any language other than Albanian in Rambouillet, so most people did not know what they were saying.
[Lituchy] Tell us what you think the reason was for the United States to launch this war.
[Jasari] I think the United States wants to establish military bases here, and extend its occupation of the Balkans.
[Lituchy] For what reason? What is the motive?
[Jasari] The United States wants to dictate to all countries in Europe.
[Elich] As a member of the Executive Council, what special problems did you have governing Kosovo during the period of the bombing?
[Jasari] During the NATO bombs, all members of the council carried out our duties. We helped people, supplying medicine, assisting refugees whose homes had burned down. We did everything we could. In Yugoslavia, there is the first degree of democracy in the whole world. Every ethnic minority has the same right in Yugoslavia, no ethnic group has more rights than another.
[Lituchy] What do you have to say to groups and individuals who, perhaps out of ignorance or maybe out of false motives, claim that Yugoslavia was like a police state oppressing the Albanian people?
[Jasari] It is not true. It is not true. I am Albanian, and I have all the same rights as any Serbian. Every country must hold onto its own territory, and not give it away to other countries, or to an ethnic minority. One third of the people in Yugoslavia are ethnic minorities. Why do we have problems only with Albanians, and not other minorities? This problem did not arise only yesterday. After the Second World War, many Albanian people wanted to secede from Yugoslavia, but that was not so well known. They were preparing for secession. I asked Albanians from Albania and Albanians from Kosovo, who has a better life? All the knowledge and property Albanians have is in Kosovo, not in Albania. The Republic of Serbia, Belgrade, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia wanted to help them, to support them. You can find Albanian doctors, professors, engineers, and all professions. Our government wanted and still wants to provide education, to help them. Education was free, they did not have to pay anything.
[Lituchy] What do you see as for the future of the rights of Albanians in Kosovo under the KLA?
[Jasari] The Albanians must have the same rights as all other people in Yugoslavia. They cannot have a separate country.
[Lituchy] Tell us your name, and what town you’re from, and also what your position was in the Albanian community in Kosovo.
[Ismali] Corin Ismali, from Stjema, near Lipjana.
[Lituchy] What position did you have in the Albanian community?
[Ismali] I was under-secretary in the Executive Council in Kosovo for national social questions, and also secretary for the party.
[Lituchy] Would you tell us what happened after the bombing stopped in Kosovo?
[Ismali] After the NATO bombing stopped, we had to leave Kosovo because KFOR did not guarantee us freedom, or peace, or the possibility to walk in the evening without being afraid of KLA soldiers.
[Lituchy] Did you speak with KFOR at any time and ask for their protection?
[Ismali] We wanted to speak with Mr. Kouchner, but we could not meet with him. We don’t know the reason. No one told us why.
[Lituchy] Are you a refugee from Kosovo.
[Ismali] Yes, we had to leave Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Why did you leave Kosovo?
[Ismali] Because I was not safe in Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Were you threatened by anyone in Kosovo?
[Ismali] Yes, because I supported Yugoslavia, and I opposed secession. That is why I had to leave Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Why did, or do, Albanians support Yugoslavia?
[Ismali] Because we want to live with other ethnic groups in Yugoslavia. We do not want to live in a country that has only one ethnic group.
[El-Sayed] Do Albanians in Kosovo want to live in Yugoslavia, but they are forced to listen to the KLA?
[Ismali] Yes. They are forced by the KLA to leave Kosovo because they don’t want to join the KLA.
[Lituchy] Why did some Albanians join the KLA? Why do you think?
[Ismali] We don’t know, because that is their own opinion.
[Lituchy] What percentage of the people in Kosovo of Albanian background do you think would have been happy to stay in Yugoslavia without the KLA?
[Ismali] Almost all of us want to return to Kosovo, to live in Kosovo with other ethnic groups, if someone could guarantee our safety. About eighty percent of refugees want to return. But we are afraid of the KLA.
[Lituchy] When you left Kosovo, what did you leave behind?
[Ismali] I left approximately one million Deutsche Marks in Kosovo: houses, property, fields, cars, furniture, everything.
[Lituchy] By profession, why did you do? [missing segment during change of tape]
[Lituchy] What kind of government do you expect the KLA will establish, now that they’ve gained power?
[Ismali] They want a one-ethnic government.
[Koteska] You asked him a question about why Albanians joined the KLA. You have to know that many of them had to join the KLA, because if they don’t join them, they will kill and torture them. They will rape their wives, daughters. They had to do that.
[Lituchy] Was any member of your family threatened, injured or killed?
[Ismali] No, because we left Kosovo in time.
[Lituchy] What day did you leave Kosovo?
[Ismali] We left Kosovo on the 16th of June.
[Lituchy] And you haven’t been back?
[Ismali] No. I left my opstima [similar to county] fourteen months ago, because they threatened me to leave Stjema. Then I moved to Brezivica, and I left Brezivica on the 16th of June.
[Lituchy] Would you like to return to Kosovo?
[Ismali] Yes, of course. Why not?
[Lituchy] Do you think you will ever get back your property?
[Ismali] I think I will get my property back in one or two years.
[Freeland] How many incidents are you personally aware of people having their wives raped, or being killed, because they refused to join the KLA?
[Ismali] I don’t know that.
[Lituchy] Under what conditions do you think you might be able to return to Kosovo?
[Ismali] If our army and police return to Kosovo, I will go the same day. The reason is that I must have peace, freedom, and no one to threaten me before I can return to Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Do you think you will return soon?
[Ismali] I don’t know that. It depends on the situation.
[El-Sayed] Do you think the United States created the KLA?
[Ismali] They had support, but I cannot say whether the United States formed the KLA.
[Lituchy] You didn’t go to Rambouillet, is that right?
[Ismali] No, I did not.
[Lituchy] Did you ever meet with any of the American or NATO forces at any time?
[Ismali] No.
[Lituchy] Why do you think the United States intervened in Kosovo? Why did it want to break up Yugoslavia?
[Ismali] They have their interests, and they wanted to install their military bases in Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Is there anything you would like to say to the American people about what the United States government has done in Kosovo?
[Ismali] I want to say to the American people not to intervene in our Yugoslav problems. We will solve these ourselves.
[Friendly] Does the KLA give any indication of their interest in democracy, or do they tend to be more totalitarian?
[Ismali] I think it won’t be democracy.
[Lituchy] Would you tell us what your name is, what town you’re from, and what your occupation and position is?
[Seholi] My name is Fatmir Seholi. I am from Podujevo. I was the chief editor at Radio Television Pristina, and I work in public relations for the Kosovo Democratic Initiative.
[Lituchy] So you have worked as a journalist in Kosovo for a number of years, and worked in radio and print journalism. Would you tell us a little about the type of media that was available for the Albanian population in Kosovo?
[Seholi] I must point out that the Albanian people had more media than did the Serbian people. In Kosovo, you could find only one newspaper in the Serbian language, but you could find about 65 newspapers in the Albanian language.
[Lituchy] Did you go to Pristina University?
[Seholi] Yes.
[Lituchy] In what language were your courses while you were at the university?
[Seholi] In the Albanian language.
[Koteska] You can study in your own language, and don’t think that in the United States, Albanians can study in their own language. So, where is democracy in America?
[Lituhcy] Are you aware that in America, the television and radio and newspapers were regularly saying that Albanians have no rights in Yugoslavia or Kosovo, and that they are without rights? Are you aware of that?
[Seholi] I think that America did not have the right information about Albanian people in Kosovo, or did not want to get the correct information about the rights of Albanian people in Kosovo.
[Lituchy] But that information that was inaccurate was very important in allowing the United States to carry out the war against Yugoslavia.
[Seholi] I am Albanian, and I studied at the university in the Albanian language, and that should be sufficient indication that Albanian people had rights in Kosovo.
[Lituchy] Are you now in political exile from Kosovo?
[Seholi] Until I arrived here as a refugee, I worked as chief editor at Radio Television Pristina, in the Albanian language. I spoke with KFOR about a peaceful solution for problems in Kosovo.
[El-Sayed] Did the United States create the KLA?
[Seholi] The KLA received great support from America and Germany. According to information from our secret service, they created the KLA. The question is, why did they create the KLA? You came from the United States, and you know that they want to have controlling influence in all countries. Until the NATO bombing, I loved and sympathized with democracy in the United States. After studying some facts about democracy in the United States, and about negotiations, I’ve learned that there is no democracy in the United States. The United States was the leading country against terrorism, but in our case, the United States supported and still supports KLA terrorism in Kosovo. Two years ago, on a night in January 1997, the KLA killed my father. He was called a "traitor" and killed only because he supported Yugoslavia and the Serbian government, not the KLA regime. He loved living with all ethnic groups in Kosovo.
[Lituchy] What was his name?
[Seholi] Malic Seholi.
[Lituchy] And how old was he when he was killed?
[Seholi] He was 51 years old.
[Lituchy] Do you know who killed him? The names of the people?
[ Seholi] The KLA told us that they did that.
[Lituchy] The KLA themselves said that they did that?
[Koteska] Yes, yes.
[Seholi] The KLA said that they killed more than one thousand people because they were not Albanian, because they wanted Kosovo to remain in Yugoslavia, and because they supported the Yugoslav government. And that doesn’t even mention how many members of the army KLA soldiers killed.
[Lituchy] Who else from your family was injured or killed by the KLA?
[Seholi] Two of my brothers. About two weeks ago, two of my brothers were tortured by the KLA, in Podujevo.
[Lituchy] What happened to them after that?
[Seholi] After they had beaten them, they let them go home. But they must call them every day at 10:00 AM.
[Lituchy] Call whom?
[Koteska] The KLA.
[Lituchy] They have to call the KLA?
[Koteska] Yes, yes.
[Seholi] The commander of the KLA in Podujevo. I don’t recall his name, but before the war, he was a bus conductor.
[El-Sayed] Do you know what torture methods the KLA use?
[Seholi] What more do you want? They are killing people. They killed them by strangulation, and by torture.
[Koteska] In some places were found their torture implements. These were like those used by the Inquisition centuries ago. I think the Inquisition would say, ‘Oh these new methods are better.’
[Lituchy] Why did they begin to torture them two weeks ago? What was the reason?
[Seholi] Because they stayed in Kosovo, and still support the Yugoslav government. Also because they worked in our government.
[Lituchy] So in other words, the KLA will not allow anybody to live in Kosovo who doesn’t agree with them?
[Seholi] Yes, exactly.
[Lituchy] Where was KFOR?
[Seholi] KFOR was in Podujevo. KFOR was in Podujevo while the KLA was threatening my two brothers. The KLA commander of Podujevo walks every day on the streets, armed, and KFOR does nothing. Almost every day he is drunk, firing a rifle in the air.
[Lituchy] Which sector is this in? The American sector?
[Seholi] British and American.
[Goldberg] Does anyone willingly join the KLA?
[Seholi] I think that many join because they are forced to do so. If someone refuses to join, he is tortured or killed. They used to say, "They vanished. Nobody knows where they are." People value their lives, so it is better to join the KLA than be killed.
[Lituchy] Would you tell us about the day you left Kosovo, what day that was, what happened?
[Seholi] I left Kosovo on June 28th. That day I went to my job, as usual. The day before I spoke with Major Kennedy, from KFOR. I spoke with him about the return of Albanian people to the office, to work with Serbian and other non-Albanian people.
[Lituchy] And then what happened?
[Seholi] On that day, we formed a commission to plan programming for Radio Television Pristina for the next five months. We had a good agreement. Representatives from KFOR and the United Nations also attended this meeting. The delegation of Albanian people wanted to change the name of the station, not to call it Pristina, but to call it Radio Television Kosova. But KFOR, the United Nations, and our delegation members would not agree to that demand. We agreed that the next meeting would be the following day, at 10:00 AM. We arrived at the office the next day at 9:00 AM. About three or four thousand Albanian people gathered in front of the station at 9:30. Neither representatives from KFOR nor from the United Nations appeared at the 10:00 meeting. At 10:15 AM, a group of three or four hundred Albanians forced their way into the station, and they smashed all the windows and equipment they could. Many employees were threatened and beaten by these intruders. Major Kennedy of KFOR arrived at 10:30 AM, and shouted at the crowd, but in such a manner that it was clear he was merely acting. He invited three representatives from the crowd inside for negotiations. After ten minutes one man came into our office and he told us someone had placed a bomb in the station, so we must leave. Because of the danger, all but 15 employees left the building. I was one of those who remained behind. The KFOR major and a Russian representative from the United Nations wanted us to leave the building because a bomb was planted in the building and they did not want to risk lives. They took us out and brought us through the crowd of four thousand. I have to say that when we left the building, before we entered a KFOR car, the crowd had shouted some rough things. I cannot repeat what these hooligans yelled. I couldn’t go to my home, because it was possible I might be killed. I could not see my own children. I want to thank KFOR because they escorted us to the border. It is a hard story.
[Kotestka] He left Kosovo without anything.
[Seholi] I know now that KFOR and the United Nations arranged all of this. There was no bomb in that building. After NATO bombing stopped, I went with [temporary UN special representative for Kosovo] Sergio de Mello to visit Kosovo, and we visited almost every part of Kosovo. The trip lasted five days. We visited almost every village and city in Kosovo, and we saw what damage resulted from NATO bombing, and what damage resulted from gangs. I want to point out that Mr. Sergio de Mello seemed disinterested in damage from NATO bombing in Kosovo. Mostly Albanian people died due to NATO bombing. In just one strike from NATO in the village of Korisa, they killed 105 people. Mr. de Mello wasn’t interested.
[Koteska] You know that most of those people were little children, women, and old men.
[Lituchy] What did you leave behind in Kosovo?
[Seholi] My mother and my two brothers.
[Lituchy] Have you heard from them since you left?
[Seholi] Yes.
[Lituchy] Are they safe?
[Seholi] The KLA’s secret police visited my flat three times, and removed all of my possessions that they could.
[Lituchy] What do you think the future is for anyone in Kosovo?
[Seholi] It is very difficult at this moment to talk of the future. I think that the powerful Western countries have their own plans for Kosovo.
[El-Sayed] Do you think that KFOR is trying to make other nationalities flee Kosovo, but make believe that they are protecting them?
[Seholi] KFOR’s task is also to protect people. KFOR has about 40,000 soldiers in Kosovo, and they agreed to have about 2,000 Yugoslav soldiers and police. If they want a safe Kosovo, and 40,000 of their soldiers cannot do that, how could 2,000 of our soldiers do so? I think the future of Kosovo is as part of democratic Yugoslavia. Our party stands by those things that make life better. Every man wants a happy and good life, but the KLA’s political program has a different goal. Your mission as a delegation is to show the people of the world the truth about Yugoslavia. I support that with all my heart.
[Lituchy] Thank you, but –
[Freeland] Following up this question of the bombing of Albanians inside of Kosovo, did you notice a trend of more of them being bombed earlier in the bombing vs. later in the bombing? In other words, an attempt to get them to flee, to make it seem like something else was going on, but that later in the war there was not so much bombing of Albanians?
[Seholi] In every case, Albanians get hurt from all sides, but mainly from NATO bombing. More than 300 Albanians were killed by NATO bombings.
[El-Sayed] Do you think that NATO bombed Albanians purposely, to make them leave? And then later they stopped bombing because they had left already?
[Seholi] Every NATO bombing was a big problem. There was no purpose relating to the Serbian nation or the Albanian nation. Whether that was their purpose or not, people were killed. The man who could command NATO to bomb people is not human. He is an animal. After the bombing at Djakovica, I saw decapitated bodies. I have pictures of that. It is horrible, terrible. I saw people without arms, without feet.
[Koteska] And not only men. When you see babies, the baby did not half of her body. Or you can see the mother is dead, and the little baby is crying. The baby does not know that the mother was killed.
[Lituchy] I am just going to ask you one more question, and then I am going to throw it open to all three gentlemen to answer questions. First I am just going to ask one more question. What – well, actually, this could be for each of you. What do you think has been lost as a result of this?
[Seholi] It was a human catastrophe.
[Ismali] It was.
[Jasari] Now we can see that the United States does not care about any ethnic minority. Before NATO started bombing us, they said they are protecting the Albanians. You can see Albanians were the victims. If they were protecting the Albanians as they said they were, they wouldn’t be bombing them. The aim of the United States was very clear. Their aim was to create a greater Albania, to sever Kosovo from Yugoslavia. The Western countries have military bases in Albania. They want to expand throughout the Balkans, and have controlling influence in other countries. Unfortunately, our Albanian people are the victims of that. They are also victims of Albanian terrorism. Hasim Thaci was in the United States and other Western countries, not in Kosovo. He came to Kosovo after NATO bombing ceased, and after our army left Kosovo. What kind of Albanian man is that who does not protect the Albanian people? We, as Albanians, together with the other nationalities, protected everyone in Kosovo. Regardless of whether he is Albanian, Egyptian, Serb or Turk, he is a human who lives in Kosovo. Now, after the NATO bombing, the Albanian people lost too many people. The question is, what did the United States want from Kosovo, Serbia and Yugoslavia? The United States used the Albanian people as the excuse for their aggression, and perhaps they will again bomb Yugoslavia. After these words, you can judge for yourself what are the interests of the United States. When Mr. [segment lost during change of tape] he promised to the Albanian people they would support all their endeavors to the end. He disregarded all the Albanian victims during the NATO bombing, and if there were more victims, he said, "It is okay, it is their duty. Politics is primary." KFOR and the United States cannot guarantee any kind of freedom to people in Kosovo. They can only guarantee that terrorists can walk armed through cities and villages and act without restraint. When someone reports that someone is killed or kidnapped, they do nothing to stop or prevent such actions.
Would you like to live that kind of life? I think that the number of KFOR troops is insufficient to protect people. Even 100,000 troops would not be enough. Many KFOR soldiers support the KLA.
[Lituchy] How many Albanians live in Serbia right now?
[Jasari] In Belgrade alone you can find about 80,000 Albanians. Many have lived here as long as twenty years. They have rights, they work, they have offices, no one does anything to them.
[Lituchy] Actually the conditions for Albanians has not changed very much in Serbia.
[Jasari] According to the constitution of the Republic of Serbia, everyone has the same rights. It does not depend on one’s nationality. You have the same rights. After the visit of Mr. [Robert] Dole and [Joseph] DiGuardi, Albanians started pushing for a greater Albania. They promised a greater Albania, providing support, both monetary and other. We also know that one the presidents of Yugoslavia was an Albanian. Even one of the vice presidents of the Republic of Serbia was Albanian. Why would they want to clamor for more?
[Friendly] What is your comment on the allegations of wrong doing by the Serbian military in Kosovo? How would you compare that with what NATO did, and is there some basis for the allegations that the Serbian army was wantonly killing villagers, or were they actually still after the KLA?
[Seholi] The KLA is a terrorist group, and the Yugoslav army is our state’s army. We do not think that our army killed villagers.
[Friendly] So you’re saying that the Serbian army – right now, people in the United States are being told that the Serbian army after the bombing became undisciplined and decided to kill Albanian citizens freely.
[Jasari] It’s not true. Our Yugoslav army exists to protect people, not kill them. It’s propaganda. The Yugoslav army never attacked anyone in Kosovo. They only defended themselves.
[Lituchy] You must be aware that one of the reasons for this attack on Yugoslavia, according to American propaganda or media, is that this is a human rights issue. Did American human rights officials ever contact any of you, or ask you for your opinions?
[Seholi] No one from the United States ever contacted us, but I had a conversation with Mr. Jerzy Dinsbil. He is from the United Nations human rights organization.
[Jasari] There was one visit from the United States called the Mission of Peace, before the war started. We spoke with a Colonel Robert from that group. They asked us about the situation and our rights in Kosovo, and they were very pleased to receive the information we gave them. But the other delegations that came to Kosovo, came with their own opinions, to support the terrorists. They never told the truth back in their countries. Some delegations visited only one side of Albanians, the side that supported terrorism. They only sought their opinion, never from our side.
[Lituchy] We know that these human rights organizations are funded by the U.S. government for the most part, so a lot of what they say is completely propaganda. But another argument that was made by certain officials in the U.S. government was that the United States had to go to war. In fact this was an argument made by a colonel that I debated in Ohio. He was quite proud of having bombed the Serbs in Croatia, and he bombed the Serbs in Bosnia, and he said now we are going to bomb the Serbs in Kosovo. And that had to be done, he said, because the people can’t live together. Do any of you have comments on that?
[Jasari] There was no reason to bomb us, because that was not true. We lived together. There is no reason to bomb anywhere in the world. Why didn’t the United States influence the KLA to negotiate with our government before Rambouillet? For the United States, it was much easier to bomb us, rather than tell the KLA to negotiate with us. Now we have many innocent victims of this war. Who do we blame? The United States, Great Britain, France and the other Western countries brought this about.
[Lituchy] Does anybody want to comment on the human rights issue?
[Seholi] I would like to point out that Yugoslavia consists of many ethnic groups. Yugoslavia does not consist of only Serbian people, unlike Croatia, which is only for Croatians.
[Koteska] Croatia represents her country by their constitution as consisting of Croatian people and the others. You cannot find that in our Yugoslav constitution.
[Seholi] These are the facts, and one doesn’t have to say much to know the truth.
[El-Sayed] When you met Albright in the Paris Conference, what did she say the reason they were in Kosovo? Did she say the Yugoslav army was killing innocent civilians, and if she did say that, did you argue against her and tell her she was wrong?
[Jasari] When she told me that, I told her, "Don’t speak from your imagination. Do you have some facts? We have the facts that this is not happening there." But she said, "Ha! Facts? We don’t need facts." She had her task, and she only saw that task. You couldn’t say anything to her. She didn’t want to talk with us because she didn’t want to listen to our arguments. The representatives of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia went to meet the representatives of the Albanian secessionists in Pristina 17 times before Rambouillet. Not once did they come to meet us. Albanian people lost everything. They no longer have property, accommodations. Now they have a narco-mafia. They lived together nicely before NATO bombing. They had then all that they have lost now. We have no other state than Serbia and Yugoslavia. That is our state and our home. We lived together with all ethnic groups and it should be the same again in the future. Kosovo is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-confessional. Unfortunately, these days you cannot find many ethnic groups in Kosovo. Serbians, Romas, Muslims, Egyptians, Albanians who do not support the political aims of the KLA have fled from Kosovo. One day it may be entirely cleansed and only one ethnic group will live in Kosovo. These days KLA soldiers kill people who work in the fields. I think that all people in Western countries who do not believe their government tells them the truth, must bring out the truth from our country. We want to bring charges against Bill Clinton and all the people responsible for the NATO bombing. Now in Yugoslavia we have many innocent victims, and you can see that we have less bridges than before. The United States is a big country with democracy. What kind of democracy is it which kills people, kills innocent victims, bombs schools, bombs bridges, buses full of people, and people living in their homes? Where is democracy now?
[Lituchy] One member of our delegation, Michael Parenti, wrote a book called, "Democracy for the Few," which is the answer to your question. Democracy, in American terms, is not democratic, but is anti-democratic. It’s a system of exploitation for a few people, with many people suffering.
[Jasari] In the United States, only Americans can be elected, and you have about forty nationalities. But in Yugoslavia we have many nations, and everyone has the same rights. Anyone can vote and anyone can be elected.
[Lituchy] What kind of help do you think that we could bring to the people of Yugoslavia, including the Albanian people of Yugoslavia who are pro-Yugoslavia? Are you getting help right now from abroad? My understanding is no.
[Jasari] None at all.
[Lituchy] Only from the Yugoslav government?
[Jasari] Yes.
[Lituchy] What kind of help can Americans who want to support you give?
[Seholi] Any kind of help: food, medicine, or clothes, because winter will come.
[Lituchy] And is there an Albanian Yugoslav organization that we can deal with directly?
[Jasari] It is best to deal through the International Red Cross or the Yugoslav Red Cross. But when you send help, arrange for whom the aid should be delivered, otherwise it may be diverted to the terrorists.
[El-Sayed] Do you know that the KLA is part of the KFOR patrol? Are they part of it, do they have any members patrolling with the UN or KFOR?
[Seholi] We don’t have information about that, but they cooperate quite closely. Ten days ago, KFOR arrested the commander of the KLA, Agim Ceku. He killed at least fifty people, but he was released after 25 minutes. If a man kills so many people, should he then walk free? The other example is a conversation between Hasim Thaci and Mr. Michael Jackson, in which it was agreed that Thaci’s bodyguards can still carry arms. You know, in Pristina there is a sports center. It was called Boro and Rames. And now they’ve changed the name to Adem Jashari, Hamez Jashari, two terrorists. This sports center was renamed after two people who are equivalent to the most wanted criminals in the United States. Can you imagine naming a sports center in the United States after Osama Bin Laden? I think that if President Clinton falls, there will be less American imperialism. I think Clinton’s biggest mistake is trying to remove Slobodan Milosevic from office, and some day that aggression will come back to haunt him. He is the president of the United States, but he speaks on television about his sexual affair with Monica Lewinsky. Who is Clinton to accuse another? I would like to say to Hillary Clinton that her husband is an immoral person. That man ruined our state for no reason. What would he say if someone bombed the United States, bombed the White House, or killed or raped his daughter? Who is the evil man here? Milosevic, who is protecting the territory of Yugoslavia and protecting the people of Kosovo, or Clinton, who bombs us?
[Lituchy] Let me ask you a question. I personally agree with you that it is wrong for the United States to try to overthrow President Milosevic. You must be aware that the United States is trying to overthrow Milosevic simply to gain control over Yugoslavia, and destroy what remains of Yugoslavia. Are you aware of that?
[Jasari] Yes, certainly.
[Lituchy] Well, the point I wish to make is that the United States wants to destroy Yugoslavia before the Russian elections next year. Are you aware of that? If the Russian elections next year bring to power somebody like [Gennady] Zyuganov, the whole situation in Yugoslavia could change. Are you aware of that?
[Seholi] I agree with you that if Mr. Zyuganov and the communist party get elected, that will affect the situation in Yugoslavia. I want to point out, though, that Yugoslav people are very strong people and no one can defeat us. This is our third war, and no one has beaten us. How can 19 of the most powerful countries attack one country of only eleven million citizens? Because of a few terrorists.
[Lituchy] Do you think that the opposition parties who are working with the United States will succeed in bringing about new elections this year, or in overthrowing Milosevic?
[Jasari] The opposition parties cannot overthrow President Milosevic because he was legally elected. He became president in a legal way. But unfortunately, some leaders of the opposition parties are involved with representatives of Western countries. They are only puppets. They are carrying out orders from abroad. They are not for democracy.
[Lituchy] Just one more question. We believe that this message, this idea of multi-national unity that Yugoslavia represents is very important. If somehow that message that that’s what Yugoslavia stands for could get out to the rest of the world, that that would be beneficial to Yugoslavia, that maybe that could change people’s opinion. How do you think would could get that message across to other people in the United States and other countries?
[Jasari] Yugoslavia, Serbia and Kosovo are multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, and only if all ethnic groups have the same rights can we have a good life. You can’t find any country in the whole world that is more multi-ethnic.
[Lituchy] Would you like to comment?
[Seholi] Yugoslavia was established many years ago, and it always had a peaceful policy. You can find democracy in Yugoslavia before democracy in the United States. Can you find any country in the entire world, where the president of the whole country is Albanian, a member of an ethnic minority? You cannot find it. We had a president and vice-presidents who were Albanians.
[Lituchy] Their names?
[Seholi] Sinan Husani, Fati Hoxha, Ali Cugriho, Asam Blazi. Asam Blazi was the president of the youth in Yugoslavia. What more could Albanian people want? Perhaps if Albanian people stopped boycotting elections, they could have an Albanian vice-president. It is a problem with people who refuse to vote. President Milosevic encouraged them to vote in the elections, but they didn’t want to vote. President Milosevic met with their representative. I think that Albanians who move to the United States will, within two or three months, want to replace President Clinton with an Albanian president.
[Haliti] Does the United States and the 19 countries who bombed us, know that in Hasim Thaci’s army they have no other ethnic groups but Albanian. And they said the reason they bombed us is because there is no multi-ethnic or multi-cultural life in Kosovo. Where are the other ethnic groups in the KLA?
[Lituchy] It would be very nice, I believe, if the three gentlemen here could somehow travel to other countries, including the United States, and speak to the American public directly, because it -
[Koteska] It’s very nice, thank you for that. But you know money is a big problem. If you’ve left your home, you have no property, no money to travel.
[Lituchy] Of course, I am going to propose that maybe organizations in the United States will sponsor these gentlemen to come and travel.
[Seholi] Yes, I support that idea.
[Jasari] I want to travel to tell the truth about what has happened.
[Lituchy] That’s one thing that we’ll try to help make happen, so we should keep in touch with your organization. I just want to add that your political tendency has never been recognized in the United States.
[Jasari] As I mentioned before, when delegations from the United States and other Western countries were in Kosovo, they only talked with one side.
[Lituchy] That’s right.
[Seholi] One day before I left Kosovo, a woman came to my flat and said that if I told people that my father was killed by Serbs, I could have a high-ranking position in the KLA. The United States is heavily involved with the KLA, they work closely together. Why didn’t the United States do anything many months ago, when the KLA was killing citizens of Kosovo. The United States took measures only when the KLA was about to be destroyed. What can one think when one sees Madeleine Albright, President Clinton, Hasim Thaci together, and Albright gives Thaci a kiss? We accuse Mr. Clinton for the crimes he has committed, not only to Albanian people in Kosovo, but also to all ethnic groups in Yugoslavia. Mr. Clinton is indirectly connected with the murder of my father.
[Lituchy] We do believe that is a form of war crime, and that’s why we’re collecting this kind of evidence.
On behalf of our delegation, I would like to thank each of you for your time, and for your very interesting and illuminating interviews and testimonies, to our delegation. As you know, we’re here both to help bring humanitarian aid to the people of Yugoslavia, but also to collect evidence of NATO war crimes, because we believe that what has been done here is a violation of human rights, and that it is necessary for peace organizations and people who are concerned about the future of humanity to begin an alternative process of investigating war crimes, of bringing that information to the public, and of possibly bringing pressure against these governments to prevent future wars like this, and to also bring restitution to the victims of the crimes of NATO in Yugoslavia. So we thank you very much and we wish to stay in touch.
[Damjanovic] I would like to ask you about democracy and Black people in the United States. They can’t go to some parts of town. Where is democracy there, with discrimination?
[Lituchy] The United States was created, as you may or may not know, out of genocide. It was created out of wars of genocide against Native American people, genocide against African people, and against all foreigners, in order to create a great empire. That’s the whole history of the United States of America. So this is not surprising to us, those of us who have been fighting for human rights in the United States know very well that the struggle for human rights in the United States is connected to what the United States does everywhere else in the world, and that somehow that system has to be changed. And especially after the rise of the United States-
[Jasari] We thank you and support you, and hope you succeed in your task. We only want the truth to be told to people in other nations. We hope one day the truth will be known. I wish all the best in life for those who want the best for people in Kosovo-Metohija, Serbia and Yugoslavia.
[Lituchy] We only hope that we are worthy of your confidence and that we can carry out this work as best we can, and we’ll keep in our minds and our memories our meetings with you.
[Seholi] Mr. Ramsey Clark is our great friend, and we support him in his work. The thirty thousand members of our party support him.
[Lituchy] Well, now we’re all working together.
[Seholi] Thank you very much.