Subject:
ALIVE
Date:
Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:11:07 +0100
From:
Eric Craven
To:
Gothic%craven@mailings.gmx.net
So the list has started.
This is the first official mail to be sent.
Mailings to Gothic%craven@mailings.gmx.net
Postmaster craven@gmx.net
Aireik
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
ALIVE
Date:
Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:31:26 -0700
From:
"M. Carver"
Organization:
California State University, Long Beach
To:
Gothic%craven@mailings.gmx.net
Waila gamotjands.
Must be similar to how Alexander G. Bell felt sending the first spoken
words over the telephone wire....
Ah well. You are correct in your assertion; the list has indeed
started. In doing so, it naturally has left much work for those who
labored first to bring it to existence (or cheered on those who assayed
thereat--wink wink).
I am a sea of questions. But firstly, I must ask to be forgiven if I
suggest that we shall require rules, a sort of manifesto, if you will --
or perhaps before anything we shall require *people* to participate!
Well, if the postmaster ;0) would be so kind as to inform us of the
workings of the list, of the housekeeping and other mean matters, then
we shall be so much the freer to move on toward our nobler enterprise.
Questions for Discussion:
(I suppose some of these must be answered only in due time, when the
number of list-members will have required answers)
1. Ought this list be moderated and, if so, to what extent?
2. Shall there be information about the list on the web; a statement of
purpose, an archive?
3. How will the mechanics of posting be handled? (this question
primarily addresses the posting-reply function: when I tried to reply to
this message, I got the postmasters *private* address. hmmm......)
Golja thuk,
Matthew
PS: anyone want to chat on #gothic? We'll need ten addresses to get the
permanent channel.
PPS: how many people *are* on the list, BTW?
Aireik Craven wrote:
>So the list has started.
>This is the first official mail to be sent.
>
>Mailings to Gothic%craven@mailings.gmx.net
>Postmaster craven@gmx.net
>
>Aireik
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
new member
Date:
Sat, 06 Dec 1997 22:56:31 +0100
From:
Eric Craven
To:
Gothic%craven@mailings.gmx.net
so we got a new member
GUTANIOWIHAILAG,
Froedenand Ximénez
we are proud to anounce that the list includes by now 3 members
btw we start a www-interface to the list at
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/Olympus/7705
but it's yet to be done (1 or 2 days)
Aireik
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
The list started
Date:
Sun, 07 Dec 1997 09:24:46 +0100
From:
Eric Craven
To:
members%gothic-l@mailings.gmx.net
I'm sorry, but i redid the list, so the address is now
The administrators of the list are
we maintain a homepage for the list at
but it has yet to be updated
Greetings to all, the list is opened.
(Maybe we could introduce ourselfes to the others, so what about a bit
of description in the first mail??)
Eric
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
new address
Date:
Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:57:56 +0100
From:
Eric Craven
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
one last change
the list is now
no moderation
postmasters are craven@gmx.net & mcarver@csulb.edu
homepage is http://www.oocities.org/Athens/Olympus/7705
first question to all:
would u like to keep up the writing like Wulfila did it or would u
prefer to change it (-wair- to -wer- [i.e. more phonetically correct])?
would u like the list moderated??
what do u want on the homepage??
tx for all your answers :-)
Eric
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Introduction and suggestions
Date:
Tue, 09 Dec 1997 03:19:18 -0500
From:
FX
To:
Gothic%craven@mailings.gmx.net
Fahéþs jah gawaírþi and alls.
I'll thank someone to correct the above attempt later.
Nonetheless--- I am very encouraged by this list and wish to thank
Matthew and Erik for their dedication towards Gothic scholarship.
As was suggested, I am going to jump in and break the ice by
introducing myself to the present list.
As it is plain by the headers, my name is Froedenand Ximénez.
I have degrees in anthropology and molecular biology. I am hoping
to start my terminal degree in molecular anthropology very soon.
My interest is in the peopling of Europe with special interest in
the Gothic tribes. I am in the process of arranging permits to
collect organic materials (from bone) from ossuaries and graveyards
in Northern Spain. A genomic database may at some point allow us to
answer certain questions concerning the Goths. I cannot go further
into this at this point.
I was born in Asturias, Spain and have spent much of my life in
the United States. I consider the U.S. my home, but I miss the
emerald-green meadows, snowcapped mountains, and the sounds of
Gregorian Chant wafting from the quaint Visigothic and Romanesque
chapels of the Asturian countryside.
My interest in the Gothic language and esp., Visigothic
Culture stems from a deep interest in my heritage. The Visigoths
founded the first penninsular kingdom in Iberia. They arrived
in about A.D.414 and quickly subdued most of the Celtic tribes.
Later they conquered the other Nordic/Germanic people inhabiting
the peninsula, namely the (Vandals and Suebi). Toletum eventually
becomes their capital, there, over thirty Kings reign before the
moorish invasion of 711. In that same year they abandon Toletum
to take refuge in the mountains of Asturias. There, the Visigoths
regroup halting the enemy advance.
The decisive Visigothic victory of the battle of Covadonga in 722
reverses the tide, and fron that point on, moorish power and
territory steadily declines while the Visigothic Christians gain
the upper hand.
The continuation of the Visigothic reign is clearly seen in the
annals of the Chronicle of Albelda, it shows Alfans II (791-842)
at the court of Oviedo (my home town) reinstating
(((((( OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT ))))))
"The whole organization of the Goths just as it was at Toletum."
Well--- there you have it ---a little bit of background as
concerns my interests.
As concerns the list, the following questions have been raised:
1. Would u like to keep up the writing like Wulfila did it or would u
prefer to change it (-wair- to -wer- [i.e. more phonetically correct])?
F.X. I wouldn't mind waiting for others that may be more
"Gothically Astute" to answer this one; then perhaps,
I'll have a better idea of what the pro's and con's are.
2. Would u like the list moderated??
F.X. Not in the begining, perhaps when the list gets larger.
I am open and willing either way.
3. What do u want on the homepage??
F.X. Some good content concerning the Gothic people so that
the uninitiated but curious might learn something.
Something I would really enjoy (but cannot do):
Include a few sound files of someone reading pasages
in Gothic. Perhaps 1st. Corinthians 13 as a start.
GUTANIOWIHAILAG,
Froedenand X.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Topic for Discussion
Date:
Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:27:08 -0700
From:
"M. Carver"
Organization:
California State University, Long Beach
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
Now that we are somewhat endowed (i.e. with membership) should we move
on to our first discussion? Perhaps we may discuss firstly the topic of
our first discussion. As a foundational question, I would like to bring
to the forefront the question of original Gothic syntax.
"Since the Gothic texts are literal translations of the Greek original,
they give only meager information on syntax..." -- Lehmann (Intro.
Gothic Language, MLAA 1980)
How ought we to construe the remnants of Gothic as regards their
faithfulness to the necessarily germanic syntax which Gothic must needs
have employed in (non-ecclesiastical) communications? Did it differ
greatly from the characteristically Greek stuff which survives? For
answers I look primarily to the commentary on the gospel of John (which
boasts over 1500 emendations by later scribes) whose language is in its
most legible places most troublesome. Its author seems also to be
influenced by both Greek and Latin, though the text of the Skeireins
cound not be a word-for-word translation (MLN, XXi col. 205-209). But
Rudolf Lenk challenged this in his 1910 study "Die Syntax der
Skeireins.", not denying influence of the Antiochenes, but pointing to
the Semitic Greek of the Pauline epistles as a likely model. He further
asserts that the language of the Skeireins represents a form of everyday
speech used as a literary vehicle, and, at the same time, a literary
medium that was also spoken (Skeireins, MLAA 1960, p.23):
"So möchte ich auch die sprache der skeireins eine umgangssprache, die
geschrieben, und eine schriftsprache, die gesprochen wird, nennen; daß
dabei der theologe anders spricht als der krieger, ist
selbstverstandlich." (BGDSL XXXVI p. 305)
--Matt
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Original Gothic Syntax - some preliminary remarks
Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:01:41 +0100
From:
Christian Petersen
To:
Gothic Language List
(Avoiding any undocumented Gothic salutation:) My dear colleagues,
accidentally, the topic brought up by Matt is exactly what I am working
on for some years. The result ought to be my doctoral thesis bearing
the number 1196.7. of the BIBLIOGRAPHIA GOTICA I am referring to
henceforward. Its 23rd Chapter deals with syntax; the 5th supplement has
appeared in MEDIAEVAL STUDIES 59.
However, my predecessor and instructor, the great Ernst A. EBBINGHAUS,
used to insist on the point of view that Gothic syntax will remain a
puzzle unless further manuscripts being revealed (and - of course -
identified as Gothic remnants).
Concerning WORD ORDER, the main discussion might be reduced to
McKNIGHT 1897 (#1183)
KOPPITZ 1900f. (#1184)
DIETRICH 1903 (## 304 / 305 via KAUFFMANN)
LENK 1910 (#1043), as correctly stated by Matt
FOURQUET 1938 (#1196)
and the handbooks and grammars.
Focussing SKEIREINS, my countrymate Knut SCHÄFERDIEK has proven 1981
(ZDA 110:3, 175-193) the fragment to be a translation from Greek,
performed in the 4th century by Theodor, Bishop of Herakleia in Thrakia.
Already in 1978, Else EBEL (#1196.2) examined the word order of
Skeireins, and has discovered textlinguistic components, being supported
by my own research: Thus my result looks very trivial on the first
glance:
Word order in Gothic has not been as rigid as in recent languages.
Eager to read your opinion about this
Chris Petersen from Germany
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Let'S do something
Date:
Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:11:18 +0100
From:
Eric Craven
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
SO we started this thing and lot's of people seem to be interested, but
no one wants to WRITE anything, everybody's just listening (=reading).
What about some information on the proficiency of Gothic of the
members??
i myself am only a mere student, my interest in gothic is purely
private, i've read a book on the language and dlt some philes from the
net, thatz all. i think i'm quite bad at gothic, because of the lack of
practice.
what about YOU??
btw: The Reply to the list doesn't work, so sorry. If u want to reply, u
simply reply to the mail but change to of the message to
. else u would reply to the sender of the message
only. Maybe i can get that fixed, but by now we have to make do with
that variant. Tx for ur understanding.
Eric
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
IRC-channel
Date:
Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:19:56 +0100
From:
Eric Craven
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
what about an permanent irc channel on gothic?? if at least ten of us
agree we could do that, i think on undernet would be easiest.
Eric
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: Let'S do something
Date:
Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:46:17 -0800
From:
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
Organization:
AErnfolk
To:
keth@telepost.no
CC:
gothic-l@gmx.net
References:
1
keth@telepost.no wrote:
>
> >SO we started this thing and lot's of people seem to be interested, but
> >no one wants to WRITE anything, everybody's just listening (=reading).
> >What about some information on the proficiency of Gothic of the
> >members??
***Gothic, an archtypal language, is to be found in variation throyghout
the Anglo-Saxon, Dutch, German, and Scandinavian world. Since Gothic per
say is rigidly maintained in older dictionaries and grammars from the
days of Ulfilas and successive Gothic scribes and monks, Old Gothic is
that of Ulfilas, and Diffuse Gothic is that hoard of words which have
shaped modern descended languages from its root-stock over the last 1000
years...It's my opinion only [disclaimer]...***
> >i myself am only a mere student, my interest in gothic is purely
> >private, i've read a book on the language and dlt some philes from the
> >net, thatz all. i think i'm quite bad at gothic, because of the lack of
> >practice.
> >
> >what about YOU??
>
> I know as good as nothing.
> But since it is has similarities to other language,
> I like to try and read it and see how far I get.
> I often run into it in connection with etymologies of Scandinavian,
> German etc, words. It seems relevant to the reading of runic
> inscriptions dating from before the syncopic period.
> Can anyone come up with an estimate HOW similar Gothic
> was to the language spoken in Scandinavia before the syncopic period?
***Scandinavian Gothic fused into Swedish when the Old Goths and Sviar
melded many centuries ago. The Rest of Gothic immersed itself into
numerous other peoples, tribes and spoken ways a general form of
communication. Scandinavian Goths may have inherited more strands of
Baltic links from Estonia and Lithuania, while more southern and western
movements out of the Denmark area and Lower Saxony would have sent
Gothic-speakers into Roman/Latin, Celtic and Slavic areas.***
>
> Then there is the question of definition:
> Can Gothic be said to be any language spoken by any people who
> called themselves Goths (and whose relatedness was acknowledged
> by the other Goths), or do we understand by Gothic -- at least
> in the context of this list -- the language used by Wulfila?
***Wulfila IS the academic standard of Known Gothic (exactingly written)
that we have to study grammatical form, syntax and basic vocabulary by.
Comparative Linguistics shall show furthermore that Gothic roots are
within many Northern ("Germanic"/ "Gothic") languages.***
>
> Finally (to those who already know some),
> how about including ONE Gothic sentence in each post?
>
> Keth
> ----------------
> keth@telepost.no
In Amerykan Gothic:
"Ik dreke mjod at juultyd for haalwean aller offren..."
"I drink some mead at Yule-tide and offer unto all best wishes.."
Paal-Eirik
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: Let'S do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:53:30 +0100
From:
Michael Everson
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
I've been working on adding Gothic to ISO/IEC 10646 and Unicode. See
http://www.indigo.ie/egt/
--
Michael Everson, EGT * http://www.indigo.ie/egt
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire (Ireland)
Gutháin: +353 1 478-2597, +353 1 283-9396
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: Let'S do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:12:18 +0100
From:
keth@telepost.no
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
>SO we started this thing and lot's of people seem to be interested, but
>no one wants to WRITE anything, everybody's just listening (=reading).
>What about some information on the proficiency of Gothic of the
>members??
>i myself am only a mere student, my interest in gothic is purely
>private, i've read a book on the language and dlt some philes from the
>net, thatz all. i think i'm quite bad at gothic, because of the lack of
>practice.
>
>what about YOU??
I know as good as nothing.
But since it is has similarities to other language,
I like to try and read it and see how far I get.
I often run into it in connection with etymologies of Scandinavian,
German etc, words. It seems relevant to the reading of runic
inscriptions dating from before the syncopic period.
Can anyone come up with an estimate HOW similar Gothic
was to the language spoken in Scandinavia before the syncopic period?
Then there is the question of definition:
Can Gothic be said to be any language spoken by any people who
called themselves Goths (and whose relatedness was acknowledged
by the other Goths), or do we understand by Gothic -- at least
in the context of this list -- the language used by Wulfila?
Finally (to those who already know some),
how about including ONE Gothic sentence in each post?
Keth
----------------
keth@telepost.no
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
RE: Let'S do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:42:00 -0000
From:
"Stapleton, Conrad"
To:
"gothic-l@gmx.net"
Well, I had to get to know intimately all that exists of St.Mark in
Gothic for my exams, so I know it very well, and (because it's quite
long) my Gothic is good. I've constructed a few 'Phrases for your
holiday', which is quite fun - can anyone come up with any more? (I've
avoided thorn - because it rarely survives E-mail transmission - and
used th instead).
Hwan filu hwaiteis wileis?
How much wheat do you want?
Thu is woths!
You're loopy!
Ik wiljau thatei gaskohi jah katil bugjau.
I want to buy some shoes and a kettle.
Ik gasahw thuk matjandan hlaif jah milith mith thaim kalkjon!
I saw you eating bread and honey with the harlots!
Ik silba wait thata thizei tharft.
I myself know what you need.
Niut theinis melis gabaurthais.
Happy Birthday!
Hwa wileis, ei taujau?
What do you want me to do?
Qim du garda meinamma gistra-dagis jah liuthom!
Come round to my place tomorrow and we'll have a sing-song!
Regards,
Conrad Stapleton
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: Let'S do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:58:00 -0000
From:
"Stapleton, Conrad"
To:
"gothic-l@gmx.net"
Hwan filu ist sa hunds in thizai augadauron?
----------
From: keth@telepost.no
To: gothic-l@gmx.net
Subject: Re: Let'S do something
Date: 14 December 1997 13:12
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: Let'S do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 97 07:40:28 -0700
From:
"John H. Jenkins"
To:
On 12/14/97 4:53 AM, Michael Everson (everson@indigo.ie) wrote:
>I've been working on adding Gothic to ISO/IEC 10646 and Unicode. See
>http://www.indigo.ie/egt/
>
Both Michael and the Unicode Technical Committee would *really* like any
feedback on the proposal, BTW. We're hoping that it can be accepted this
coming spring in terms of the characters it includes, their names, and
their orders, and then then locked down in the near future. Please send
any feedback you may have to both Michael and me.
On a completely unrelated note, could anybody tell me how to write
Apple's current (ungrammatical) marketing slogan, "Think different" in
Gothic?
=====
John H. Jenkins
jenkins@apple.com
tseng@blueneptune.com
http://www.blueneptune.com/~tseng
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
RE: Let'S do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 97 16:17:51 UT
From:
"jarlemoore "
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
Greetings Everyone,
My name is Eric K. Moore and I've always had a deep interest in the Goths
especially their activities before and during the Migration Age ( especially
the Black Sea era ), I find that the Goths and their deeds are more
interesting by far than the Viking Age.
I joined this list to see about learning what I can about the Gothic
language and so far I have seen some rather good examples, but I have a
problem, I do not know how to pronounce the various words within those
sentences. So if anyone out has a pronunciation guide or at least a character
list for letters, vowels and so on I would greatly appreciate any assitance
that can be offered.
Eric K. Moore
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: IRC-channel
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:12:42 -0700
From:
"M. Carver"
Reply-To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
Organization:
C.S.U.L.B.
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
References:
1
Eric Craven wrote:
> what about an permanent irc channel on gothic?? if at least ten of us
> agree we could do that, i think on undernet would be easiest.
>
> Eric
That makes two or three of us. I propose the name #gothic-l since
#gothic is already taken (by those name-stealing black-wearing soulless
vampire-like losers; present company excepted of course).
-- Matt
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
So lets do something
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:15:12 +0100
From:
Strunk@t-online.de (Jan Strunk)
To:
gothic-l@gmx.net
Hallo,
I don't know much Gothic. But I have read many Old High German and
Old Saxon texts lately. Furthermore, I'm also interested in old
runic inscriptions and Germanic languages in general, so that
it might be very interesting and instructive to participate in
this lists. The only Gothic text that I know is the Pater noster.
In theser liste maht thu lernan
Guld bewervan
Welog inde wisduom
Sigilof inde ruom.
(Inscription from Cologne. I modified the first line, though).
Jan Strunk
strunk@t-online.de
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Subject:
Re: IRC-channel
Date:
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:16:51 -0800 (PST)
From:
Jenn Bronaugh
To:
Eric Craven
CC:
gothic-l@gmx.net
> what about an permanent irc channel on gothic?? if at least ten of us
> agree we could do that, i think on undernet would be easiest.
>
> Eric
>
I'm not sure I understand, or that I'd be able to contribute as much as I
could learn, but why not??
jenn