From jamesjs@interchange.ubc.ca Sat Jan 22 00:56:50 2000
Newsgroups: alt.meditation.shabda
Subject: Radio Interview of Kirpal Singh in Philadelphia, Sept. 30, 1963
From: James Shannon <jamesjs@interchange.ubc.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:56:50 -0800






                 RADIO INTERVIEW OF MASTER KIRPAL SINGH

                 IN PHILADELPHIA, ON SEPTEMBER 30, 1963


                A call-in program on WCAU (AM & FM) Radio,
                Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, conducted by
                Mr. Ed Harvey. Published in the Nov. 1981
                issue of Ruhani Satsang - Divine Science
                of the Soul Newsletter (Anaheim, Calif.)


ED HARVEY: Our guest today is looked upon as a Master Saint by
many throughout the world. He is His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh
Ji. And he is the director of RUHANI SATSANG, known also as the
"Science of the Soul". He is President of the World Fellowship
of Religions: he was chosen unanimously in 1957 in New Delhi, and
in 1960, in Calcutta. He is now on a world tour of 52 countries.

	Our guest, His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji - and if I may -
and I understand that it is allowable that from now on I may call
you "Kirpal Singh".

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: That will do.

ED HARVEY: All right. Now, could you explain what you mean by
RUHANI SATSANG, or the Science of the Soul? Could you explain
that just a little bit to us?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. RUHANI SATSANG means a gathering in
which science of the soul is taught: what has this connection with
the body, what connection this (soul) has with the Oversoul, God.

    So that place where men of all denominations sit together for
the purpose of knowing how to know God, irrespective of whether
they belong to one religion or the other, that's a common ground
for all.

ED HARVEY: A common ground for all religions?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes.

ED HARVEY: Then...then this religion that you teach ...or this...
I keep forgetting what the name of it is ....

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Well, that is no religion. That only gives
the basic principles of all religions, which are already given by
all Masters who came in the past. It's a revival of the old, old
Truth.

ED HARVEY: Right, so Buddhists, Mohammedans, Jewish, Catholics,
Protestants - they all could belong here?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, all.

ED HARVEY: Well, what is it? A brotherhood of man?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, as a man we are all one. As a soul, we
are all one. And the Way back to God is also one. How to come in
contact with God: that is, God is already within us - It is the
very Soul of our souls - how to invert from outside and come in
contact with God, Who is Light, love, and life.

ED HARVEY: Hmmm... Well now, is this a theory that is taught in
the Far East, or is this something that has evolved from your own
inner, personal experience?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: No, it is an old, old Truth given out by all
Masters who came in the past. That's no new thing, only a revival
of the old, old Thing that we have forgotten. And Masters come
from time to time to revive that old Truth: how to come in contact
with God, how to know God, and...

ED HARVEY: And Masters come from time to time. Do They...is there
constantly, then, in this area...is there constantly a Master on
earth? At all times?

MASTER. KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. God works, you see. God-Power works
at different human poles, from time to time, to guide the child-
humanity. It's the God-Power working through a human pole That
gives a contact with God. No son-of-man can do it.

ED HARVEY: Well, now... are you considered a Master, yourself?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Well, I have got some connection with the
grace of my Master*, and people are having that connection through
Him.

ED HARVEY: Well, now do you feel that you hold some sort of a
divine commission from above. Is that your purpose here?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes...authorized...authorized.

ED HARVEY: And you are a Master. Now, what is a perfect Master?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: A perfect Master is one who has risen above
body-consciousness, and just sees God as I see you or you see me.
And sees Him in every....

ED HARVEY: Oh, I see. Now, are you a perfect Master?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, I am given that description, of course
(chuckle), to carry on.

ED HARVEY: You have had that Gift since you were a child?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, I had awakening from the childhood; but
later on I came to the feet of my Master* in 1924, and there I sat
at His feet for 24 long years; and in His lifetime, with His grace,
I came up to that standard -- when He authorized me to carry on this
work after Him.

(*Master Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj (1858-1948))

ED HARVEY: So that you have had this rare privilege of seeing God,
just as I am looking upon you right now...is this what I understand?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Surely.

ED HARVEY: Now, what sort of experience is this? Do you just see
Him? Does He have words with you? What goes on when this happens?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: It is only to become a conscious co-worker
of the Divine Plan. God is Light. And you see the Light of God
by inversion -- when your eye becomes single: "If thine eye be
single, thy whole body shall be full of Light."* That's a practical
matter of self-analysis: how the two eyes can become one.

(*"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be
single, thy whole body shall be full of Light." -- Matthew 6:22)

ED HARVEY: Is this a sort of something that you do? You sit and
contemplate, and this Vision comes to you? Is that how it works?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, that God-Power working through me -
That helps others to have the same experience of the Light of God.

ED HARVEY: Uh huh... Now, when you were small, you were known
as the "little Saint", so apparently you have had this divine
ability for some time. But I understand that many miraculous
things have happened to you during your life.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. Generally this came up, now and then,
as the reactions of the past. Because a man is in the make: he
progresses, you see.

ED HARVEY: Well now, what? Could you give us some examples of
these "miraculous things" that have happened to you that would not
happen to we ordinary people?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Well, I could see the things even happening
in India now, at this moment; or, while sitting in India, I could
see what is going on in America.

ED HARVEY: Oh, you can do that today?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes -- today I have that reserved. That
is a sort of dis-ease -- or how you take it, you see? If I am
sitting here and I see what is going on there, it's a sort of
dis-ease; so I have prayed God to keep it reserved within.

ED HARVEY: (to someone else present, accompanying Master Kirpal
Singh): Can you help me with this because I....

COMMENT: Master is that Power Who can appear in any part of the
world. If anybody is in trouble, He can appear.

    So, the last time when Master Kirpal Singh was in the Himalayas
and was meditating on a rock in a flowing river, the flood waters
came at sunset; and people (on the shore) thought that he may get
drowned. So, as soon as the water touched his feet, he got up and
walked on the water, as Jesus did in his time.

    There was a lady in Los Angeles, and she was crying that she is
broke: "If there is any God or Christ, He should appear to me."
So Master Kirpal Singh, who was in India, appeared in the luminous
Form and gave the lady a basket full of fruits; and she was amazed.
Then she wrote a letter to him. And the Master replied, "Whenever
there is a real cry in the devotee's heart, that God-Power working
through some chosen (human) pole supplies the need." Suchlike
things are very common in which people got....

ED HARVEY: Well, for right now, if there was any great need for
him to be in India, perhaps he could be there at the same time
that he is here!

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: It's the God-Power working through the human
pole That works that way...

ED HARVEY: God-Power working through the human pole...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: ...through the human-pole: yes, That materializes
in that form* and helps others. "WORD was made flesh and dwelt amongst us."
It's the WORD-Power, God-in-action-Power, Which works at the human pole
to guide and help the child-humanity.

(*Where there is a real cry, the God-Power materializes in a form
having the features of the human-pole through which It is working.)

ED HARVEY: Well now, how well accepted in this belief of yours and
this religion of yours by the other great religions of the world?
Is this an accepted religion?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. I tell you: I have not come to advocate
any particular religion, but just to reveal those very basic facts
which are already there but we have, due to ignorance, forgotten.

ED HARVEY: You belong to no particular sect or creed.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: I belong to the Sikh religion, but while
living the Sikh religion that gives universal views. You see,
all Masters when They come, they say, "The whole humanity is my
family."

ED HARVEY: Uh huh... all of humanity is your family...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Masters see from the level of the body, or
the level of the soul, not from the level of the outer badges we
are carrying of different religions.

ED HARVEY: Well then, do you consider, perhaps, that Jesus was
a Master?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes...

ED HARVEY: In his time, Mohammed?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Christ said, "I shall never leave thee nor
forsake thee till the end of the world." That's the God-Power
working at his (Jesus') pole, Which is the Christ-Power -- and
That never leaves, never dies.

ED HARVEY: So that Jesus was one of many Masters?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, Jesus was the human pole, son-of-man,
at which that Christ-Power worked. We have regard for the Christ-
Power or God-Power, whatever It may be called, you see; with due
deference to the son-of-man called "Jesus".

ED HARVEY: Now, was Mohammed also a Master, a similar Master?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, similarly...Masters, you see, to
whatever level They have progressed, They gave out as required
by the times when They came. So, we have regard for all Masters.

ED HARVEY: But at any time, at any time in our lives, there is
at least one Master on earth...alive on earth?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. Usually you find history shows like
that; but there is no hard and fast rule against it, you see:
there may be more than one...

ED HARVEY: There may be more than one?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: ...may be, but there is no hard and fast
rule against it; because It is God Who knows where to work and
where not to work: what is the need, you see.

ED HARVEY: Well now, you said - or I think you said, if I
recall -- that Jesus was the Son of God.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. Other Masters also said the same
thing, "We are the Son of God." They are all Children of Light.
When They come, They come to give Light to all the world over.
They come for the whole world, not for one religion or the other.

ED HARVEY: Then you believe, and your followers believe, that
you, too, are the Son of God?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: I tell you: that generally Masters will
never say. They will say, "It is the Father working through me,
or at the back of me." You see? Generally, you will find that
always They speak in the third person, not in the first person.

ED HARVEY: "The Father working through me" is the way you put it?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, generally, in almost all Masters you
will find like that. At times, They might give some inkling to
that: "I and my Father are One." But generally They say, "It is
the Father That is working through me."

ED HARVEY: Now, one of your favorite expressions, in the reading
that I have done about you and your life, is: "First, know thyself."

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes...

ED HARVEY: Well now, what great help do you think that this is?
Particularly, what if I get to know myself, and I don't like me?
I mean, what help is it to me to know myself?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: I tell you: the point is, you see, we find
this man-body works so long as some Power is working within us.
The time does come when we have to leave this body - that is, at
the time of death. So, this five or six feet high statue we are
not: We are the indweller of the body. We have to leave this body.
And we are also _in the body: body is working so long as we are
in the body, and we are in the body so long as some Power controls
us in the body. Breathing goes out: that has to return - some
Thing is bringing it back, controlling it. So, that Power:
That is the Controlling Power of us in the body; That is the
Controlling Power controlling all creation - under Its Control
- That is What is called "Oversoul" or "God".

    In the man-body, it is the soul that can know God: not with
intellect, or outgoing faculties (senses), or the vital airs.
So, we have to analyze (separate) our self from mind, matter, out-
going faculties... and know our self.

	"Know thy-self" means to know who you are, and what you are.

ED HARVEY: To know your inner self...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, inner self.

ED HARVEY: Well, of course, everyone is not spiritually advanced,
as you well know: and, maybe, it's impossible for many of us to
know our selves that intimately; or to appreciate our inner selves.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Personally, I think whoever has got a man-body -
that man-body) is considered to be the highest in all creation --
they have the birthright to know God. But, as I told you: each man,
every Saint has his past, and every sinner a future.

ED HARVEY: "Every Saint has his past, and every sinner a future."
    That's a nice thought.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: There's hope. So man, you see, is the highest
in all creation, is next to God; and in this man-body only we can
know God --- and in no other body.

ED HARVEY: Uh huh... Now, what to you is the soul?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Soul? Soul is a conscious entity.

ED HARVEY: Is a conscious entity...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Entity ...we are conscious beings. That
consciousness you feel. If you would like to feel it, just close
your eyes quickly, and then open, then close. In the act of
nictitation, you will feel some awareness back of the eyes. That
we are.

ED HARVEY: If you open and close your eyes, and keep doing it,
there will be an awareness at the back of my eyes?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: You will feel it if you do it actually.
So, that we are. That is a conscious entity.

ED HARVEY: Is that part of my soul, then?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: That is the soul.

ED HARVEY: Oh: That is the soul.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: God is an Ocean of All Consciousness. We
are of the same Essence as That of God: a drop of the Ocean of
All Consciousness. Our consciousness, which is called "soul", is
environed by mind and outgoing faculties - we are identified
with them so much so that we have forgotten our self. So, first,
we have to analyze (separate) our self, know our self, then we car
know that Controlling Power that is keeping us in the body.

    Self-knowledge precedes God-knowledge.

ED HARVEY: Is it necessary that we have a Master, such as you, with
us to experience this inner awareness?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: With due deference to all Masters who came
in the past: Their findings we have got - a fine record of them -
in the scriptures with us today. They saw God: those whoever met
with Them, they also saw God, you see.

ED HARVEY: All of the Masters have seen God...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, (as) soul. "Son knows the Father, and
others to whom the Son reveals (the Father)."* So, even to under-
stand those scriptures - because those are the facts given by the
Masters: what They saw, (inner) experiences in Their life -- so,
now also, we want somebody who is on the Way, who has had some
experience of the (inner) Way. He can give you the true import
of Their sayings, you see.

(*"And no man knoweth the Son but the Father; neither knoweth any
man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will
reveal Him (the Father)." -- Matthew 11:27 (N.T. of the Bible).)

ED HARVEY: I see.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: We need also now somebody who has gone on
the Way, and can give us a right interpretation; but not that much
only but also can give us the same experiences they had (within)

with the Master themselves in the past. It's a matter of self-
analysis.

ED HARVEY: Self-analysis...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, just like anatomy. Doctors do anatomy,
you see. It is anatomy (dissection) of the soul from the mind,
outgoing faculties, and outer things.

ED HARVEY: Uh huh... Our guest is His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji.
He is President of the World Fellowship of Religions, and he is
also founder and director of RUHANI SATSANG, which is also known
as the Science of the Soul.

    Twelve-ten on your AM dial, WCAU, WCAU-FM, in Philadelphia.

    Kirpal Singh, I am not personally familiar with your teachings
but, from what I gather here in talking with you this afternoon,
it is very similar to what I know as the Bahai religion. Now, are
these two similar-type religions?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: No, sir.

ED HARVEY: They are not?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: No. Bahais say they are after blending all
religions into one religion.

ED HARVEY: A brotherhood?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Brotherhood is there even while remaining
in different religions. We are all the same Children of the same
God. We are brothers and sisters in God.

    Bahai-ism has got one religion for the whole world; one
government for the whole world. One religion cannot even be dreamt
of, I would say, because each man has his own make and temperaments,
and own climatic influences, and customs. So, it is impossible,
I would say to my mind, to blend all religions to become one, with
the same customs and the same rituals, and like that.

ED HARVEY: Oh, I see: the Bahai want to take all religions and
make them one. And you want to let all religions...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: You see, Masters never come to break the Law
but fulfill it.* So, let them remain where they are. They simply
look to them from the level of the man: all mankind is one. And,
further, They look to them from the level of the soul: being
embodied souls. So, there They see that we are one as a man, and
as a soul, and as a worshipper of the same God. You see, They let
them alone in their own religions. Whatever steps they have taken
already, that is well and good - that is meant for the preparation
of the ground; but they should take a step further: to rise above
body-consciousness, know one's self, and then be able to know God.
Masters do not touch any outer forms or rituals of the various
religions.

(*"Think not that I (the Christ-Power) am come to destroy the Law,
or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."
-- Matthew 5:17.)

ED HARVEY: So...so... So, what I can't understand - and that's
probably because I'm pretty naive in this area -- but I can be a
Protestant, my neighbor can be Catholic, my neighbor on the other
side can be a Jew, and we can all still be followers of you.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Oh yes, each man can have his own religion.
I tell you: a true Christian is one who sees the Light of God -
that's the criterion given. And a similar definition is given of
the other religions: only he is a true Sikh who sees the Light of
God; a Mohammedan is a true Mohammedan if he just rises above body-
consciousness and sees the Light of God. The same criterion is
given. So, to be a true Christian, to be a true Jew, to be a true
Sikh, or a true Mohammedan, that is what is wanted. When they
come up There, they are one There: as a man, as a soul, and inner,
higher contact, too. God is Light. God is Sound-Principle.**

(**"He (the Christ of the time) shall Baptize you with the Holy Ghost
(the Sound Principle) and with Fire (the Light of God):" -- Luke 3:16.)

ED HARVEY: If there are any of our listeners who care to call
and talk with, or ask questions of Kirpal Singh, he would be pleased
to talk with you.

	Our suburban number is Mohawk 7-0500, M07-0500; in Philadelphia,
it's Tennyson 9-6790, TE9-6790; and the New Jersey number, across
the river, is W0, Woodlawn 3-5909, W03-5909.

    What, exactly ...before we take the calls - just a couple of
more questions - what is that you call "spirituality"? Would
you explain that?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. Spirituality means: we are spirit in
man - what connection we have got in the body - what connection
with all the world over. Our spirit, our soul, is environed: under
the control of mind. Mind is under the control of the outgoing
faculties (senses). We are identified with the mind, body, and
outside things so much so that we have forgotten our self. So,
spirituality is a matter of self-analysis: how to liberate our
soul from mind and outgoing faculties...

ED HARVEY: Well then this, again, is to know our inner self.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Spirituality is pure science of the soul:
how to analyze it (soul) from mind and matter, and knowing one's
self.

ED HARVEY: All right. This is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you,
please?

FIRST TELEPHONE CALLER: Why yes, Ed. Would you ask your guest
what he knows about this religion that is sweeping Japan: Soka
Jokkai? And what he thinks about this? Thank you.

ED HARVEY: Well, don't go away now. Would you repeat that?
Did you leave?

    Did you understand her question?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: No.

ED HARVEY: A new religion that is sweeping Japan now; and she
named what it was, and I lost the name...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Shintoism.

ED HARVEY: No, it wasn't Shinto. No, because Shinto has been in
Japan....

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Buddhism.

ED HARVEY: No, because Buddhism and Shinto have been in Japan for
centuries. Now, this is a new religion, she said, that is sweeping
Japan; and she went so fast I didn't catch the name, did you?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: No.

ED HARVEY: No? Well, I guess we will have to go on then.

    This is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you?

SECOND TELEPHONE CALLER: Yes, thank you. I would like to ask your
guest if he would please describe what God looks like, since he says
that he has seen Him. I know a great many of your listeners would
love to hear the answer to this question.

ED HARVEY: All right. You want to listen on your radio, and you
may hear the answer. Thank you.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: What did she say?

ED HARVEY: She wants to know: since you have seen God, many
listeners would be interested in knowing what He looks like.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Well, with the grace of God of course,
I have had experience of Him. God is Light.	All Masters say,
"God is Light." So It Manifests as Light. God is Light, love,
and life. So, we can experience Him in that way.

ED HARVEY: So, it's more of an experience - because I got the
wrong impression, too. Because when... I think you both said
you could see God just as you see me. Well, I am hardly light.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: No, no, no... God is seen, not with the
eyes of flesh and bone: that is the inner eye or "the single
eye" within us, each one of us ...that is, "The eye is the light
of the body: if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be
full of Light." How the two eyes can become "single": these are
not the two eyes of flesh and bone that can see (God) but that
inner eye that can open to see the Light of God. That (inner,
single eye) is within each one of us. And that is why it is said,
"If you shut the doors of the temple of the body, you will see
the Light of Heaven." That is within us.

ED HARVEY: So, well...well what...then describe as nearly as you
can. You see - you see a light, and this is...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: That Light is Light more beautiful...more
than the outer light.

ED HARVEY: I see, so you know because It is like no other light,
you have ever seen, that This is God.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, more...most.

ED HARVEY: All right, Ed Harvey here. May we hear from you, please?

THIRD TELEPHONE CALLER: I would like to ask Dr. Singh if he
believes in reincarnation? And if in his travels, when he wishes
to appear in India from wherever he might be, does he use a form
of teleportation; or does he travel, as some Mystics have described
it, in his astral Body?

ED HARVEY: All right, thank you.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Astral Body...astral Body: we have to leave
the physical body. We have also got the astral Body and the causal
Body. Macrocosm is in the microcosm of the man-body. So, when we
leave...at the time of death...this (physical) body - or even now,
if we learn how to leave the body now - we can traverse into the
Astral Plane in the astral Body.

ED HARVEY: Well now, she asked if you believe in reincarnation.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. Most of the Masters have referred to it.
And some Masters have not referred to it: for the reason being that
those who become the ideal Christian, or the ideal Mohammedan, or
the ideal anyone else... This reincarnation is only...it is just to
bring back man...back to perfection. So They have not referred to it
(reincarnation) because they (the ideal followers) have got the
perfection in this life; so there is no need, then. That is why
some Masters have not referred to reincarnation, and Others have
referred to reincarnation.

ED HARVEY: Uh huh...

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Once I had been to Pakistan, you see.
Generally, Mohammedans do not believe in reincarnation. They put
to me that very question: whether I believe in reincarnation or
not. I told him that some Masters have referred to reincarnation
and Others have not. Then I told him, "Look here, I just put one
question to you."

ED HARVEY: Not a monopoly, then (chuckle).

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Then I told him, "I put one question to you,
to say further into the matter." Then he said, "What?" I told him,
"I have come to your Pakistan. I am abiding by all laws, et cetera:
quite living amicably, and you are living also lovingly with me?
But there is a police department, and there are prison-houses there.
But I will say: there is no police department, no prison-house for
me. So, similarly, (for) those who become the ideal Mohammedan, or
ideal Christian, or ideal Sikh, for them there is no reincarnation."

ED HARVEY: I see...uh huh. And also you believe in a form of what
we call here, and you know as "extrasensory perception", and such;
and this ability, also, to transform yourself.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, we can rise above body-consciousness at
will, of course. You see, that (rising above) is an action of
sowing: "As you sow, so shall you reap."* Action-and-reaction
comes. Those who become perfect, they need no such going and
coming (reincarnation).

(*See the New Testament of the Bible: Galatians 6:7.)

ED HARVEY: Uh huh. Now, I have got the name of this religion in
Japan. It's...though I don't know exactly how to pronounce it,
though I've been to Japan...but I believe it's Soka Jakkai - that
this woman called about, and said it is new.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: I have not heard about it, so far.

ED HARVEY: I don't know it either.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: I imagine it is some new thing coming up.
There are so many things coming up: Subud movement is there; there
is Bridge movement there...it might be something like that.

ED HARVEY: All right, this is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you,
please?

FOURTH TELEPHONE CALLER: Good afternoon, Ed. I think you have a
very interesting guest today.

ED HARVEY: Thank you.

FOURTH TELEPHONE CALLER: And first, I would like to get a little
bit more clarification of his own religious orientation. Now
judging - he can tell me whether I'm right or wrong about this -
judging by his name, "Singh", this is a Sikh name, so I take it
he is a member of the Sikh religious sect of India. Now, I take
it when he says "Master" - he refers to "Master" - this would
be a kind of translation of the famous Sikh word, "Guru", that
is: Teacher. I imagine that he is a Sikh Guru.

    Now, I would like...as I understand it, and I may be wrong in
my readings and interest in religions of India...but, as I under-
stand it, the Sikh religious sect has always been - or has been
since the 17th Century - a militaristic sect. And therefore we
can say then, that Mr. Singh...I'm asking now: is Mr. Singh a
pacifist? That is, does he believe in peace at all costs? and
non-violence?

	Now, before I leave, I just want to tell you that "Soka Jakkai"
that you mentioned is a Japanese Buddhist sect. It's not a new
religion. It's merely a branch, a revival of an old branch that
died out for a while: a rediscovery of an old militant,
fundamentalist Buddhist sect. You might say that they are the
"Holy Rollers" of Buddhism.

ED HARVEY: I see. Thank you (chuckle).

    Well now, let's get back to this. Does "Master", in Sikh, mean
"Teacher"?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes, Sikh. You see, Sikhism is a religion:
regular religion, started by Guru Nanak.* There were nine Gurus
following Him, and They gave all teachings about pure spirituality.
And They gave out universal religion, as given out by all Masters
who came in the past.

(*Guru Nanak lived from 1469 to 1539 A.D.)

    I belong to the Sikh religions born in that, of course. So, now
that has formed into a regular religion, as others.** Whenever
Masters come, They never make or form any new thing: They simply
just revive the Truth which we forget. "To err is human" after They
leave.

(** The "regular religion" called Sikhism came into being after the
departure of the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh (1666 - 1708 A.D.)

ED HARVEY: Right. Well now, he also asked if you are a pacifist,
because he said the Sikhs were somewhat militant or militaristic.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Oh no, you see, that is, of course, if need
be, just to defend the country: to defend the honor of our innocent
people. At that time (17th Century), they had to defend.*** They
had not to take any aggression -- aggressive part - but just to
defend: "Love knows service and sacrifice", if needs be for the sake
of others. In that sense, they are called a "military people".
But they are...purely speaking, I will give you an example, you see:
when they see God in everyone, even in the enemy and in the friend,
they serve all.

(***Guru Gobind Singh raised a volunteer army to defend the people
of India against the violent crimes of the occupying Moghuls.)

ED HARVEY: Uh huh... Now, but you... Personally, are you...do
you consider yourself a pacifist?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Pacifist means...?

ED HARVEY: Well, non-militarist...peaceful.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: I do believe in non-violence, you see: live,
and let others live too; if needs be just to safeguard or defend
the innocent people if anybody comes around as an aggressor...for
the sake of love, which knows service and sacrifice.

ED HARVEY: Yes, this is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you?

FIFTH TELEPHONE CALLER: Yeah, Ed. I am Muslim, and in Islam
there is a higher spiritual realm called "Sufism". My question is
this: as a Muslim, if I attain the higher realm in Islam which is
called "Sufism", would your teacher, or the instructor there, could
he take me higher...into a higher realm?

ED HARVEY: I see. All right; you want to listen on your radio?

FIFTH TELEPHONE CALLER: Yes, I will.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Well, Sufis start with self-knowledge...
self-knowledge. When you rise above it, you have Cosmic Awareness;
and there is still further - higher - Superconscious Cosmic
Awareness. So, Sufis realize at the Cosmic Awareness, you see.
And, still further, there are Sufis.

    Even beyond Sufis, Hafiz* has referred to such...like Sufis...
who go still beyond, into the Superconscious State.

(*Hafiz, a 14th Century Persian Mystic.)

    So, this can be had. But it will start with self-awareness
first: by self-analysis, by rising above body-consciousness. Then,
you can rise up to the Cosmic Awareness.

ED HARVEY: So, with Sufism, he's maybe half-way up the ladder?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes.

    This is like Vedantism, you see. You find the Shankara - he's
considered to be the highest Vedantist - he says, "Oh God, I see there
is no difference between You and me; but I am Thine, You are not mine."
Just as a wave can be of the ocean and the ocean cannot be of the wave,
that is the Superconscious Awareness of one who rises above Cosmic
Awareness.

    With due deference, to have Cosmic Awareness is no ordinary thing.

ED HARVEY: So this person who just called then has a long way still
that he can go?

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Yes. There is hope for everybody, as I told
you. Whoever has got the man-body, he has got the birthright to
rise above.

ED HARVEY: This is Ed Harvey. May we hear from you, please?

SIXTH TELEPHONE CALLER: Yes, Mr. Harvey. I would like to ask your
guest if he believes in Jesus Christ and he accepts him?

ED HARVEY: Well, he said - and he may talk further on this - he
said that Jesus was also one of the Masters, of Which he is, you see.
Now, Kirpal Singh, do you want to explain that further?

SIXTH TELEPHONE CALLER: Well, I have another question...

ED HARVEY: Well, let him explain this himself; and then you may
go on, as long as we have time.

SIXTH TELEPHONE CALLER: Very well.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: You see, Christ Power is the God-Power working
on the different human poles to guide the child-humanity whenever
They come. And that Christ-Power never dies...forever That remains.
Christ did say, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee till the
end of the world."* So, of course, the man-poles on which this
God-Power works, they do leave us; but not the Christ-Power or the
God-Power. So, we take all Masters in that light.

(*See the New Testament of the Bible: Hebrews 13:5; and Matthew 28:20.)

ED HARVEY: Now see, there are many Masters on earth...there may be
more on earth than one, at one time...and Jesus was one of these
Masters.

    Now, we have only about two minutes, if you can make this next
question very brief.

SIXTH TELEPHONE CALLER: What I wanted to know is: How would he
explain that -in regard to his belief also in reincarnation -
when our Lord said that you must live in this life for eternal
salvation...and you have no other chance to do it? But reincar-
nation means you can come back many times.

    I'll listen on the radio.

ED HARVEY: All right, thank you very much.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: Those who reach the highest perfection, they
are not to return. You see, those who have to return are those
who have not perfected themselves, so far. They are attached to
the world, and that attachment brings them round.

ED HARVEY: I see: those who have lived the near-perfect life -
I guess none of us, unless we're Masters, lead a perfect life -
but those....

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: ...those who are put on the Way: they know
how to rise above body-consciousness, and they have got no attachment
to the world: they are not to return. They are to progress from
There and earn the Higher.

ED HARVEY: And those of us who have stumbled along the way, we are
reincarnated: given another chance.

MASTER KIRPAL SINGH: "As you sow, so shall you reap." Where we
are attached, we have to go. That's the Law of Nature: we go where
we are attached. If we are, too, much attached with God, then we
are not to return: we will go to God.

ED HARVEY: Our guest has been His Holiness Sant Kirpal Singh Ji,
who is President of the World Fellowship of Religions; and he is
on a world-tour now of 52 countries. And this is the second city,
in this country, of 23 cities that he will visit in the next four
months.

    Our thanks to you, Sant Kirpal Singh Ji, for taking time out to
be with us today. Thank you very much.

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