(2/23/98)
Greetings Brethren,
Concerning Baptism- First thing, you must be baptized, for it is written , “He that believes And is baptized shall be saved; and he that believes not shall be damned”. (you wouldn’t be baptized if you didn’t believe, but because you believe you are baptized.) Mark 16:16 Peter told the Brethren on the Day of Pentecost the way of Salvation, and the Name to be Baptized in. Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the Name of The (Father, Son, Holy Ghost?) no, Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of your sins.

You cannot find any were in the Bible were the Christians ever baptized using the Titles of Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Did Peter, Paul, and the rest of the Apostles Teach False Doctrine by having the Christians Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and not saying in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost? Or is it that they had the Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

So what I’m simple trying to say is why not follow the Method of the True First Church? That which is Written in your Bible, for are we not to be led by the Word of God? Every Christian was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. Look for yourself and see If I’m with the Word or not. Am I injecting anything into the Gospel, or am I simple stating what the Gospel says? You Must make a Choice as to whom your going to Believe, either what the Apostles and Prophets wrote or what somebody else says is the Way of Salvation. Sort of like when the President says something, and then somebody else says, “what the President Really Meant was” ect...

Remember Its the Roman Catholic Church that changed this method of Baptism. And I’m not trying to be Anti-Catholic for saying these things, but I’m simple speaking the truth. Are you people wanting the Truth, or the interpretations of some man or men, and what they think. For myself I trust the Apostles and Prophets, for God put His Stamp of Approval on them. As for anyone that Speaks Against what they said, and believes they have a better way or another way of Salvation, that’s between them and God. But I’m not going to Follow them, for who are they Following?

So if you have not been Baptized In Christian Baptism, that which All Christians were Baptized, Repent, and be Baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of your sins, (And Then) and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is the Gate by which you enter the Kingdom of God, don’t try to enter any other way. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Paul
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By DeLane
(02/23/98)
It seems to me that it is just a semantics problem. If you say Jesus is the name, why can't we say in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and it still be the same. Baptism has never saved anyone so why do people waste so much time making a doctrine of it. Jesus himself knew this would happen so he never baptized anyone personally. My pastor baptizes in the name of the Father, in the name of Jesus, and in the name of the Holy Ghost. I think that covers all the bases. Jesus is Lord, and He has a father, and His spirit lives in me.
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By DeLane
(02/24/98)
With all due respect, JESUS is the Way, Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father without coming through HIM. Water is not that way, it is only obedience to God's commands. I hate to see people continue to put so much emphasis on a doctrine that does not save. ONLY JESUS SAVES. You can be baptized 5000 times in the name of Jesus and if you are not repentent it won't matter! To say that the water does it ROBS Jesus of the awesome price He paid on Calvary.
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The Trinity:
I have presented Quotes out of Two Encyclopedias, and Two is a witness. I thought it would be good for the people to know just what is meant by the Trinity Doctrine, by those who adhere to it. And to also let the people see how they Defend that Doctrine.

I will then Defend; out of the Scriptures the Doctrine that there is but One God, and not Three coequal Persons, of which each one is a Distinct God. And yet somehow after using those words they are still able to say that they believe there is not Three Gods but One. That is their interpretation of the Godhead.

And I would like to point out that in order to Defend this Doctrine of the Trinity they MUST leave that which is Written in the Bible and inject their Man Made interpretations into it. So it proves that the Trinity Doctrine is a Doctrine of Man and not of God, for they Testify to this themselves. And even though they say it’s God that Revealed this Mystery to them, why is it you can’t find it in the Bible? Why didn’t God Reveal it to the Apostles and Prophets? Am I to believe God or man. Am I to follow the Doctrines of the Apostles and Prophets of which the True Church is built on, or the Dogmas of different Churches? I am told by Scripture not to Follow the Doctrines of Man but the Word of God, so by the grace of God that is what I do.

And the reason I’m even bringing this doctrine up in this forum is because I don’t think most Christians even know where and how this doctrine of the Trinity begin. Most simple believe it because most churches teach it. But it Begin in the Roman Catholic Church of which all Denominations came out of. And in each of these movements they brought that Trinity Doctrine with them. So I will place this before you and each one of you can decide what you want to believe. I simple want to tell you who God really is by using His Word. And who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really is by using the Word. That way you can Worship Him in Truth, by The Word.

[quote] The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture. We may state the doctrine in technical terms, supplied by philosophical reflection; but the doctrine stated is a genuinely Scriptural doctrine. Under the leadership of Athanasius this doctrine was proclaimed as the faith of the church at the Council of Nice in 325 AD, and by his strenuous labors and those of "the three great Cappadocians," the two Gregories and Basil, it gradually won its way to the actual acceptance of the entire church. [endquote- from International Standard Bible Encylopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (C) 1996 by Biblesoft]

[quote] The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.  In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. [endquote- From the Catholic Encyclopedia, copyright © 1913 by the Encyclopedia Press, Inc. Electronic version copyright © 1996 by New Advent, Inc]

Paul
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My Defense of the Gospel:
First let me say that I don’t believe in the Jesus only doctrine. And I don’t belong to any Church or adhere to any Church doctrines unless they agree with the Word of God as Revealed to us by the Apostles and Prophets.

The Main concept I’m trying to get over to you is - stay with the Teachings of the Apostles and Prophets. Don’t try to figure anything out, simple believe what is Written in the Scriptures. For The True Church is founded on their Doctrines.

The Trinity doctrine cannot be found any where in the Bible, no Apostle or Prophet ever explained the Relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as is written in the Athanasian Creed. The Churches that believe in the Trinity Doctrine will admit to that, as I have already shown by their own words. They will take Scripture and then Add their interpretation to it to back up their doctrine.

Example- John the Baptist saw the Spirit of God descending like a Dove, and lighting upon Him (Jesus) :And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son,in whom I am well pleased. Here you have the Father, Son, Holy Spirit in one picture or event. Then those that try to back up the Trinity doctrine say this proves the three god theory. For the Father is God, Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is God and there they are distinct from each other, so this proves our doctrine they would say. But does the Scripture say that? No.

Let me take this same event and use the Word to give you a Picture in your mind that you should have about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. First there is but One God, not three. He abides alone, and there is not another god equal to, or beside Him. Jesus is not an Eternal Son that has always been With God. The Man Jesus did not have preexistence with God, only After He was born was He the Son of God. The Spirit of God is not a separate God, but is the Spirit of God, just like it says. By God’s Spirit was all things created. We were created in the Image of God so I can use man to help you see this. Man has a spirit, your spirit is you, not somebody different. When you die, you leave this flesh body and are in a spiritual body, your spirit. If you had the power to send your spirit to go do something would that be you or somebody else? The Spirit of God is God’s Spirit. Jesus was both a Man and God. And He did have a beginning as a Man. He was virgin born, the SEED of God, the WORD, was placed in Mary’s womb. That WORD SEED written said He would be God in a human body. He was not a Jew or Gentile, but the only Begotten Son of God. His Blood was the Blood of the WORD, the Blood of God, not the blood of man. So His Blood Type was HOLY. God Anointed Him with the Fullness of His Spirit, not just a measure of it as He had done with the Prophets. That is what we see happening when the Spirit descended on Him after John baptized Him. Jesus is also a man, so God gave Him the authority to; Judge man, for He is the Son of Man. God has also given Him all authority in heaven and in earth.

To some it up He REPRESENTS the Invisible God. To honour Him is to honour God, to dishonor Him is to dishonor God. Search the Scriptures and see if this picture lines up with the Word. You’ll find that it does. I’ll give you the Scriptures for these things, but I thought I’d give you this picture first to think about, and to look for your self into the Word of the Living God.
Paul
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By Nelson
(02/24/98)
Paul,
You said you would back it with scripture. Well, lets go to war!! I will stand by and let people slander my pre-trib views. I’ll argue, but it’s not a foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. That area does not cross the line. You have just jumped head long over it and landed on your heretical tail. So, you will believe it if the bible says it? Well, it does...and here it is.
1) 1 John 5:7 - “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”. Did you get that? Are one? Well, I know that the key arguement of a heretic is to say that this passage was not in the original text. So here’s another:
2) John 20:28 - “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God” or “o kurios mou kai o theos mou” = MY LORD AND MY GOD. This is said while he was talking to Jesus. Still not enough? Maybe you’ve rearranged that one too. OK, here’s another:
3) John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”; (v14) -“and the word was made flesh and dwelt amoung us”. Now, I know that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have an explaination for this. They say that it should be translated “the Word was a God”. Wrong. Look at the Original Greek. Greek is funny. In the original Greek it says “and the Word was with the God and God was the Word”. There is a definite artical present which means that you have to translate it as “the”, meaning a particular person, and not “a” which could mean anything. Need more proof, how about from the Old Testement?
4) Deut 6:4 - “the Lord our God is one Lord” Seems to support your arguement, untilyou read the Hebrew: “The Yehhovah our Elohiym is one Yehhovah”. Yehhovah is a singular for God or Lord, but Elohiym is a plural and it really means GODS. so “The Lord our GODS is one LORD”. Want More? Let’s go to the beginning:
5) Gen 1:26 - “...let us make man in our image” (v27) - “so God created man in HIS image” Our, His...which one is it? Want more? This one has a funny story with it. I wasinterceeding on the part of a friend of my cousin’s who had been approached by some JW’s and we (me and the JW’S)got on this Trinity subject. This verse made ‘em stumble and fumble. Have you heard of it before?
6) Zech 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David...the spirit of Grace and supplications:and they shall look upon ME whom they have PIERCED and mourn for HIM as one mourns for his only son...” Now, PAUL, who is speaking in this passage? Jehovah...that’s right, shout ‘em on out when you know ‘em! Who did he say was pierced? ME... very good. Who are they mourning for? HIM...doing fine!! Notice how God says that he was pierced and yet they are mourning for him, he talks about himself in the first, first and third person...in that order. As one mourns for his onson...sounds like God mourning for Jesus while he was on the Cross. I suggest you take a closer look at the scriptures and shake that heretical teaching of yours. It will send you to hell. Believe on Jesus and you shall be saved (borrowed that line from Joe).
In Them (normally sign it In Him, but this is more fiting:-)),
Nelson
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By DeLane
(02/24/98)
You wrote: Jesus is not an Eternal Son that has always been With God. But John 1:1 says in the BEGINNING was the Word, the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. Jesus has always been! It had been the plan of God since the Foundation of the World to send His son to redeem it (the lamb slain from the foundation of the world). They existed eternally together as GOD. Why else would God say "Let US make man in OUR image." The trinity doctrine doesn't believe in three Gods, but ONE God in three essences. The scripture supports this in both OT and NT.
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By Angela K. B.
(02/24/98)
hi! i think your post was awesome! there is ONE God, but three parts. i definitely do NOT believe that Jesus, Father, and Spirit and seperate Gods. they are seperate parts of ONE God. it's hard for us to imagine this, but hey, we're just little humans, and He's God, how can we expect to  fully understand His perfection?
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By Firstborn Ministries
(02/24/98)
Hi Paul; For clarity, are you a Jehovah Witness?
Thanx
Bob and Ava
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By Jeff
(02/24/98)
The Trinity does not mean that there are three separate Gods. First there is God the father. The ONLY God. The other two "Gods" are not separate Gods at all, but manifestations of the One True God. God the Son, God in the flesh come to save each one of us. God in the form of the Holy Spirit, which lives in each believer, and has so ever since Jesus relinquished His spirit on the cross for all mankind. One God, but three manifestations God in Heaven, who is beyond our comprehension, God in Jesus, a manifestation all  mankind can relate to, and God the Spirit, God's way of bringing us to Him. It's simple, divine and shows God's grace and love that He would submit Himself to us in these ways to allow us the opportunity for salvation. In His name,
Jeff
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By Bill Chevin
(02/24/98)
I saw once a video clip from the Moody Bible Institute explaining the Trinity. The lecturer used water to explain it. Water is water,Steam is water, Ice is water. I am ready for bed - godnight all. It's 11;0 pm here - you have just finished your tea. Or do you have another name for it?
LOL Bill
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By Angela K. B.
(02/24/98)  that is an AWESOME way to put it! thank you SO much. that'll really help in explaining the Trinity to people! 'night to you! (it's only 6:10 here, so i'll be up for a LONG while! afterall, i'm a college student, i don't need sleep! lol)
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By Rod Meneley
(02/22/98)
Paul,
The Trinity is not a false doctrine, lets get back to the "Word" here. New King James, Matthew 28;18,19,20. 18 And as Jesus came and spoke to them saying, All authority has been given to Me in  heaven and on earth.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. In Christ,
Rod, Oregon.

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Responce to posts:

Greeting Brethren,
It is good to see that Angela K.B and Jeff have a Revelation of the Godhead. They can See that there are not Three Separate Gods as the Trinity Doctrine would try to have us believe. Angela replied, “there is ONE God, but three parts. i definitely do NOT believe that Jesus, Father, and Spirit and seperate Gods. they are seperate parts of ONE God.” Amen. Jeff said “First there is God the father. The ONLY God. The other two "Gods" are not separate Gods at all, but manifestations of the One True God.” And Amen to that also. But I would have to say to Angela, and Jeff , you would not be explaining the Trinity to people buy what you just said, but nay, rather you believe that there is One True God which has Revealed Himself in Three Different Manifestations. Jeff, you said, “The Trinity does not mean that there are three separate Gods”. But the Trinity Doctrine is as I stated by their own mouth in the opening of this debate, and is as follows, “the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.” Do you see the difference Jeff, Angela? The Trinity Doctrine is the belief that there is Three Separate God’s, “that the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.” (Again Quoting). So please don’t defend something that you don’t believe in. That is why the Jews think that the Christians are a bunch of heathens, because of this Trinity doctrine, as only heathens worship multiple god’s. The Jews were taught that there is only One God, and Him alone are they to worship. The First True Church were Jews, and they Never taught this Trinity Doctrine. That’s why you can’t find it in the Bible. But as I pointed out, it was by some Gentile Heathens that made this a doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church in 325 AD. And just to make it clear I’m not saying that the Christians in the Roman Catholic Church are heathens, but the founders, and those leaders in that Church and any Church that uphold this Anti-Christ Doctrine is to be blamed for leading the Sheep of God astray from the True knowledge of the Godhead.

To Bill Chevin, you give the analogy of -- Water is water, Steam is water, Ice is water, to defend the Trinity Doctrine. This does not defend the Trinity Doctrine, by no means. But instead once again proves it wrong. Here is the Core of that Doctrine again,“the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.” Steam and ice are two manifestations of water, they are not Truly Distinct one from another or Separate one from the other. Steam IS water, ice IS water, so both is water revealing or unveiling Two different Manifestations of itself. You would truly be saying that these three are one. And you would also have a good mental picture of this Scripture. 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One. The Trinity Doctrine would follow the essence of the next verse. 1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. These three -spirit, water, blood, are distinct from each other but agree in one. Even as the Trinity creed says that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are distinct and separate from each, and that in Heaven you have a god, called the Father, a god called the Son, and a god called the Holy Spirit and “that the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.” That this is the unity of the Godhead, and because they have the same nature, or substance They agree in One. The Trinity doctrine Does Not Say that there is only “One Person” that is God and that He has Revealed Himself by His Spirit, not another spirit separate from Him, and that this same Person came from Heaven and was Revealed and Born in a body called Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Matt.1:23 behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is , God with us.

To DeLane
-- Yes I did say that Jesus is not an Eternal Son that has always been With God. And you cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures that says He was. That would be placing another Person in the Godhead, and with the Holy Spirit that would make “Three Persons” in the Godhead. Put there is only “One Person” One God in the Godhead, according to Scripture. You used this Scripture, to show that Jesus was in Heaven before He was born, that He is the Eternal Son. John 1:1 in the BEGINNING was the Word, the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. To back up your thought. The mistake your making is saying that the Word was the Man -Jesus Christ of Nazareth, before Jesus was even born. Scripture does not say this. You also cannot find in the Scriptures were it says that the Son of God was in Heaven before God the Father sent Him to Save us. That is Trinity doctrine. Remember, there is but One God, One Person, and One Throne that He sits on, not Three. The word (WORD) there in John 1:1 is (LOGOS) in the Greek text. It means speech, a word, uttered by a living voice, that embodies a conception or idea. A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 BC to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. We read in Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. But “before the beginning” we have God with His thoughts His concepts and ideas. The time came when He decided to express these thoughts, and it is then that the WORD, (LOGOS) came forth. This was also the SPIRIT of God. I JOHN 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (LOGOS), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Everything was created by the WORDS of God and God’s Words are Life. JOHN 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The SCRIPTURES are the Words of God, which is the Spirit of God and the Life of God. I JOHN 1:1,2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (LOGOS) of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;). JOHN 1:14 And the Word (LOGOS) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.You cannot separate the Scriptures from God, as if it is not part of Him. God and His Words are one and the same. To know His Word is to know Him. And He is Life and Light. To reject His Words (the Scriptures) is to reject God. Now to show that Jesus had a Beginning. Rev.3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “Beginning of the creation of God”. It says here Jesus had a beginning. So He sure couldn’t have been a god with God the Father. So how did He have a Beginning? And how can God be Created? Now use your verse, In the beginning was the Word, and that Word was made Flesh. That is how Jesus is God. And yet he is a Man, that could cry, and get hurt, and could fill our pains, and then die in our place and Redeem us, because He is God.

To Firstborn Ministries-- You asked if I was a Jehovah Witness, no I’m not. From what I understand the Jehovah Witnesses don’t believe that Jesus was God. That He was just a good man or a Prophet. I do believe that Jesus is God, but not according to the Trinity Creed. I even said in my introduction that I believed that Jesus was God. But if you will notice the different responses I got, it makes a person wonder how they came up with their response. I don’t think you Brethren really understand what I’m talking about.

To Nelson-- Boy, you sure attacked me when in Truth you don’t even know what I’m talking about, or even what I was trying to say. Go read again what I said, this time with an open mind. I have not lied about where this Trinity Doctrine come from. It’s a fact it started with the Roman Catholic Church in 325 AD. Not with the Apostles and Prophets to whom the Word came to. So before you say that I have “just jumped head long over it and landed on your heretical tail”, I would Search the Scriptures. But if I am to be classified as a heretic because I refuse to accept that Trinity Creed, so be it. There have been millions of my brothers and sisters in Christ that have shed their blood refusing to bow down to the Doctrines and Creeds of the Roman Catholic Church. It is an honor to be identified with those that were called heretics by the Roman Church. But here are a few Scriptures for you, and I pray God opens your eyes and heart to the Truth of the Gospel.

ISAIAH 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
ISAIAH 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
ISAIAH 45:5,6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
MALACHI 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
JOHN 10:30-36  I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
EPHESIANS 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Paul
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Hi Paul;
YOU STATED
To reject His Words (the Scriptures) is to reject God. Now to show that Jesus had a Beginning. Rev.3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “Beginning of the creation of God”. It says here Jesus had a beginning. So He sure couldn’t have been a god with God the Father. So how did He have a Beginning? And how can God be Created? Now use your verse, In the beginning was the Word, and that Word was made Flesh. That is how Jesus is God. And yet he is a Man, that could cry, and get hurt, and could fill our pains, and then die in our place and Redeem us because He is God.
MY COMMENTS
You have misread, and in turn mispoke what God’s Word actually says.. Jesus was Not ‘created’ but was rather the beginning of the creation of God. God spoke, and His Word went forth and created all things. He said; “Let it be” and it is. Therefore the Word of God created all things---thus His Word/Jesus Christ created or is the beginning of creation. (see Genesis chapter one; John 1:1-3) Jesus said; “ I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which is, and which was, and which is to come---THE ALMIGHTY. (Re.1:8; 22:13)
YOU STATED
To Firstborn Ministries—You asked if I was a Jehovah Witness, no I’m not. From what I understand the Jehovah Witnesses don’t believe that Jesus was God.That He was just a good man or a Prophet. I do believe that Jesus is God, but not according to the Trinity Creed. I even said in my introduction that I believed that Jesus was God. But if you will notice the different responses I got, it makes a person wonder how they came up with their response. I don’t think you Brethren really understand what I’m talking about.
MY COMMENTS
I am trying very hard to understand what you are talking about. How is it that you believe Jesus is God if you believe he was created? Actually, the Jehovah’s believe that Jesus was “a” god; but not “the” God..
In His Name;
Bob and Ava
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By Nelson
(02/25/98)
Paul,
I did not attack you because of the “truth” where the trinity doctrine came from. I don’t really care. One God, three eternal persons. I attacked you bacause you take away the diety of Jesus by saying he was not eternal. More later.
In HIm,
Nelson
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By Nelson
(02/25/98)
Paul,
I do understand what you are talking about. You agree with the doctrine of the Trinity-One Godhead, thress persons-as it applies to current times, but not before Jesus. You are mistaken again. Now, if you will be patient (I must go to work) I will be back and explain (but probably not to your satifaction) that Jesus was with God in the beginning (John 1:2).
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By Nelson
(02/25/98)
Paul,
Paul: “Jesus...not jew or gentile”.
Me: First of all Jesus was Jewish. Judaism is passed through the mother, of which his was human. I must say, you are quit a master of semantics, but that can’t help you here. The doctrine of the Trinity is not wrong just because the Nicean Council said 3 God’s. I could really care less about what they taught 1650 years ago. A doctrine is something taught as a principle of a religion. I was taught the doctrine of the trinity, sorta like Angela and Jeff stated. Just because someone said it was “this” 17 centuries ago does  not mean that I (or anyone else) believes that it is “this” still. You are getting into a semantical arguement that is vain and unfruitful. Come out and say “there is one God and 3 manifestations” instead of attacking the “doctrine of the trinity”, for you see, to me, that is the doctrine of the trinity. AS to my attacks on you, if you go back and re-read your own posts, you will see why you were attacked. You did not come out in  support of the trinity (as I believe it) until your post to Angela and Jeff. I have never been taughth the “trinity” doctrine as you present it. Nor have I taught it. I am a Christian, believe in 1 God as 3 persons. I’m not a hindu.
The debate here is about the preexistent nature of Christ. This is where you are dead wrong. You have said “The man Jesus did not have preexistence with God”. You are right, he wasn’t a man until his incarnation. You also said “Jesus is not an eternal son that has always been with God”. Also “...can’t find in scriptures where it says that the Son of God was in Heaven before God the Father sent him to save us”. You have said for me to read the scriptures with an “open mind” and to “stay with the teachings of the apostles”. To “simply believe what is written in scriptures”. Might I suggest you take some of your own advice? What have you done with John 1:1-3? You have not taken a literal interpretation and constrewed it to fit your belief. You have said that the term logos came from 600 BC. Do you think the average Jew of 1 century AD knew that? Did they know that Heraclitus meant the word to denote “divine reason”? Are you not doing the same thing that you accuse others of doing? YES. Of course you are and you know it. If you simply read John 1, you come away with the simple (you like simple remember?) message that Jesus is the word and was made flesh, and that he was with God from the beginning. So before you start lecturing on the art of simply listening to what scripture has to say...TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE. Please read the next post, for it deals with the eternal nature of Christ.
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By Nelson
(02/25/98)
-“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.” John 1:29, 30 (NOte: John was concieved and born before Jesus)
6.) -“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”John 17:5
7.) -“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. John 3:13
8.) -“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” John 6:62
9.) -“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am”. John 8:58 (note: the jews knew he was calling himself eternal and Diety, that is why they were angered in v. 59)
10.) -“Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.” Ephesians 3:21
11.) -“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But
made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:Philippians 2:6,7
12.) -“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Colossians 1:17
13.) -“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”2 Timothy 1:9
14.) -“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;” 1 John 1:1
15.) -“Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.” Hebrews 7:16
16.) -“I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.” 1 John 2:13, 14
17.) -“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8
See also Rev 1:11,17,18, 4:11; Heb 1:1,2; 13:8...I could go on
Now Paul, remembering your advice to take scripture as it reads, simply believe. You are new to this Christian thing and don’t know who Jesus is. So answer this one question: From what you just read, Was this Jesus fellow around with God before he was made manifest in the flesh as a man? Yes or No? (remember to take your own advice and don’t interpret)
In Him,
Nelson
============

Greetings Brethren,
I have enjoyed the discussion we have been having concerning God and who He is. And the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And as you can see it depends on the persons Religious background, which gives us the varying interpretations. I was quickened by the Holy Spirit into Life and Light when I was 21 and I’m now 38. God called me to the Ministry, to the office of a Teacher, and He has been Revealing His Word to me, to fulfill His Word. So that whosoever wishes to hear the Truth of the Word, may hear. I have been opposed by many, called many different names, of which most were not good, for my stand in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m not a member of any church, and never have been. It was revealed to me years ago to not accept and believe the doctrines of the many hundreds of different Denominations. But to listen to what they had to say, and then to look to God, not my own reasoning, for the Revelation of whether or not they speak the Truth. Would not this be wise, and Scriptural for any Christian wanting to know the Truth? Remember it has always been the established Organized Churches that taught false doctrine. And when someone came speaking the Truth, if they could, they killed them to shut them up. Was it not the Organized Churches that killed every prophet sent to them, and even screamed out and demanded that the government kill Jesus Christ of Nazareth? So brethren beware, for things have not changed. Tell me, why is there so many different denominations, and each one saying that they are right, and yet all of them using the same Bible? Did not the Prophets speak of these days?
II TIMOTHY 3:1-9 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

I said all that to say this, I’m nobody just another voice trying to shine a light so that those that are looking to see may see. Don’t trust me, and what I say, but also don’t trust these many other voices. For there are voices that are sent to deceive, and they come in sheep’s clothing, not dressed up like a devil. But put your trust, your faith, in the Living God, Jesus Christ, and He will show you whether the doctrine be of man or of God.
PROVERBS 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

I will continue in this forum of trying to convey what has been revealed to me, concerning the Godhead. You may not agree, or understand plainly what I’m saying, but by the grace of God, I’m trusting in Him to lead me in what to write, and how to respond. I may not be able to post every day, as I also have many other things going on, but I’ll try to. If you believe that I’m wrong, or deceived, misguided, or just plain stupid, please pray for me. For I truly seek the path of enlightenment, which comes through Revelation of the Word, by the grace of God.
EPHESIANS 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; (Revelation) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
May the Power of Revelation be yours,
Paul McAroy

Ps- I intended to rebuttal some things that had been said, but instead this came forth. I believe it’s the Spirit of God speaking to somebody, so he that has ears to hear, hear. And he that has eyes to see, see.

If you would like to visit my web site here is the address. I deal with some issues that may be controversial to some, put the preaching of the Word always causes this. I also believe that the Day of The Lord is at hand, and its time for the 144,000 Jews to come into their place.
http://www.oocities.org/paul_mcaroy/

============

Greetings Brethren,
Before I can go any further in this Doctrine we need to clear up a language problem. Its the very same problem I had with the Christians when I was first Born Again. You see every where I would read in the Scriptures it said that there was One God, but the Christians around me was telling me of a Trinity Doctrine that just didn’t make since to me. They would say that there is just One God and then in the next breath tell me that there was Three Persons in this Trinity. Well, I’m not a master of languages but I know a Person is a Person. And how you get Three Persons that somehow end up as One Person and yet still each Person is a Distinct Person within this Trinity is sure enough a mystery.
So It went on like this for about three years asking for somebody to explain this in Words that actually made since. I myself studied this many hours, and it would look like you could have three Persons until I would read that there is One Person again who is God. Sort of like where the Devil quoted Jesus the Scriptures, trying to prove a point but Jesus that Living Word would say “but it is also Written”. You see, that’s why we have so many differing Doctrines about subjects; for you can almost make the Bible say anything you want, “but it is also written” comes into view every time. Finally the Lord sent a brother to me and said, “find in the Bible where it says straight out, not you adding your interpretation to it, that there is Three Persons that somehow are not Three Persons but One God.” Well I searched for about a month, and could find nothing that even came close to this. But I did find that in every case it said Straight Out that there is ONE GOD, ONE LORD, ONE FATHER, ONE CREATOR, ONE SPIRIT, ect... never does it say there is THREE LORDS, THREE CREATOR’S, THREE SPIRIT’S, THREE FATHER’S, THREE GOD’S, or for that matter THREE PERSON’S THAT MAKE UP THE GODHEAD. You just can’t find where it say’s that. The only way a person can come up with that is you must add your interpretation to what is being said. From that point on I rejected the theory of the Trinity, ( I didn’t know at the time it even came from the Roman Catholic Church) and stayed with the Word that always said there is ONE GOD. The Lord by His grace Revealed to me Who Jesus Christ is, and that is the only way you can REALLY know who HE IS. It cannot come by flesh and blood, telling you, He has to tell you. So until that time I will try my best to express in Words the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

But for me to continue you need to answer me this:
1. Is there One God ?
2. Is there Two God’s?
3. Is there Three God’s?
4. Is that Word “God” mean “a” (as in a single Person)God that is Almighty?
5. Or does God mean “God’s” as in plural “many”?
6. What does PERSON mean?
7. Is a Person a “individual” “single” as in (ONE Person)?
8. Or does “Person” mean (more than ONE, “plural” as in many) Persons?
9. Is “The Father” a Person, a God as in “single", dwelling by Himself Person”?
10. Is “The Spirit” a Person, a God as in “single”, dwelling by Himself Person”?
11. Is “The Son” a Person, a God as in “single”, dwelling by Himself Person”?
12. Was “The Father”, that is God, created or is He Eternal.?
13. Was “The Spirit” that is God, created or is He Eternal?
14. Was “The Son” that is God, created or is He Eternal?
15. Is “The Father” the “Spirit” or the “Son” or is He a separate Person?
16. Is “The Spirit” the “Father” or the “Son” or is He a separate Person ?
17. Is “The Son” the “Father” or the “Spirit” or is He a separate Person?
And Last Question
18. Is “The Father” One Person, which by His “Spirit”came and dwelt in a Body who now is called “The Son” of God, Jesus Christ of Nazareth? Who is The One True God, Manifested in the Flesh?
Paul
============

Greetings Brethren,
Nelson, yes I did respond. And I was waiting for an answer from somebody to straighten out the language problem of those that adhere to the Trinity doctrine. For those in the Trinity Doctrine proclaim that there is only One God, but then in the next breath they proclaim that there is Three Persons who are different Persons in this Trinity. That very statement is proclaiming that they believe in Three Gods. For I suppose that they believe that each One of these Persons is a God. What deception. Anyone with common since can see that they are trying to get around that ONE GOD problem by saying that these THREE make up the ONE GODHEAD. 2,000 years of false Doctrine which started with the Roman Catholic Church, has caused the people not to see the Truth when it is presented to them.
**As far as answering the Question you had as to whether Jesus Christ was With God before His incarnation proves that you also believe in TWO or THREE GODS. If you believe that the Holy Spirit is separate from both Jesus and the Father that would mean that you would believe in THREE GODS. There is just no way around it. Even if you deny that you don’t believe in THREE GODS your very words TESTIFY that you do. SO I know you people that believe in the Trinity will deny that you believe in THREE GODS, as you would have a hard time outrightly professing that there is THREE GODS, yet you say that there is THREE PERSONS that make up the GODHEAD.
** So as I said, I need somebody to nail down this language problem, so that I can carry on in this discussion. For somehow the people that preach this Trinity Doctrine change the very meaning of Words around. So just tell me the NEW meaning of these Words then I can continue.
Paul
============

By Nelson
(03/03/98)
Paul,
You're funny. You can't even follow your own advice. Regardless of what I said or how I answer your little questions...you fail your own test. You said to show you a scripture that said Jesus was around before the Incarnation...I showed you 17 (had many more, but these were the most pointed). Regardless of what I believe, you can't follow your own advice about studying the word of God and just reading it. I asked you to be objective, you can't...you tried to turn it around. You proved my point...and every one here see's your hypocricy. You say "As far as answering the Question you had as to whether Jesus Christ was With God before His incarnation proves that you also believe in TWO or THREE GODS." I say: I just showed you the scriptures that say it. There is NO other interpretation for them, nor is any needed, and any one with any sense can see that. So, you have put yourself in a tough spot, you asked for proof...and you got it...is size 12 font! What you have proven, more than anything, is that you can't follow your own advice. Instead of even trying to reconcil or make up something to explain away ALL those scriptures, you try to accuse me of believing in 2 or 3 Gods. Well, let me say this...you are a very poor theologian, and you need to go back to school. Also, if you can't follow your own advice to just read the scriptures for what they are, I would suggest you don't make any more suggestions, at risk of being labeled a bigger hypocrite.
Out,
Nelson
============

Greetings Brethren,
Nelson, you commented saying,
“You say "As far as answering the Question you had as to whether Jesus Christ was With God before His incarnation proves that you also believe in TWO or THREE GODS." I say: I just showed you the scriptures that say it. There is NO other interpretation for them, nor is any needed, and any one with any sense can see that. So, you have put yourself in a tough spot, you asked for proof...and you got it”

The reason I didn’t respond sure wasn’t because I was in a tight spot. The Word speaks for itself, I don’t need to defend it, I simple quote it. But I seen it fruitless to respond as you simple compiled a list of Scriptures in such a way to try and back up the Trinity Doctrine. There are also some Christians that don’t believe that Jesus was God at all, and they can also compile a list of Scriptures that seemingly back up their doctrine. And if you take a look at all these Topics that are Posted on this Site, are they not simple people pulling Scriptures out to defend certain beliefs that they have? And how would you know which side is right? The revelation of a Topic will be found throughout the Entire Bible, not just here and there. But as I said in an previous post that Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus out of context to try and back up his doctrine, so this tactic is not new. But Jesus replied “ it is also Written” to put that Scripture that was quoted out of context back into context with the rest of the Scriptures.
You also said,
“Well, let me say this...you are a very poor theologian, and you need to go back to school.”
Well I’m not a theologian at all. And I’ve never been to school to learn theology. I don’t lean on man made interpretations of Scripture as a guide. I lean on the Revelation of the Word which is given by the Holy Spirit. Paul the Apostle at one time in his life thought that he knew the True Word of God, but it turned out he was fighting against God. He was indoctrinated by the great theologians of his day. And because of such he would not receive the True Word of God. He “also” didn’t believe that Jesus was the One True God until he meet Him. And only then did Paul start having the Revelation of that Word which he had been studying all those years. And that is the only way that a person can know who Jesus really is. Until that time they may say he was just a Good Man or just a Prophet or even the Second Person in the Trinity. But after you meet Him you will surly know that He is the ONE True God Revealed in flesh. Then when you call Him LORD it will be in Truth.

I will go ahead and take the time to go through those Scriptures that you presented trying to prove that the Son of God was in Heaven before He became Jesus Christ. The so called Second Person or God in the Trinity. And let me say it again, that his Trinity Doctrine is a Creed by the Roman Catholic Church and is not Scriptural.

I will show by the very Scriptures that you tried to present out of context, that the “Son of God” that Second God or Person did not exist except in the minds of some Gentile Heathens.

And the only reason I’m doing this is for the Sheep of God. They know His Voice and will follow know one else. But I know that in their hearts they don’t believe in Three God’s which are called Persons by the Trinity upholders. So maybe I can help them defend the faith (revelation) of the Word, when confronted with this False Doctrine.
It may take me a couple of days to put it together, and then I will post what you requested.
Paul
============

By Nelson
(03/08/98)
Paul, Your credability is ZERO to me and anyone else UNTIL you answer my question. It's been a couple of days now. SO tell me, from the verses you read (not studied...analyzed...because that's the way to truth, right), was Jesus in Heaven before his incarnation. Paul, quit posting because no-one is reading (maybe scanning, but not heeding) until you answer my question.
In HIm,
Nelson
============

Greetings Brethren,
Nelson my man, I'm not ignoring you or trying to evade your questions as you may think.
I deem your question worthy of answering as they are Scripture. I just don't believe that the interpretation you give agrees with the rest of the Scripture. I believe that there is One Living God who is One Person, not three. And that the Scriptures Testifies to this.

But the problem is that when a person has a view point concerning something, they will interpret what they hear and read to fit that view point. Thats why we have so many debates on this and every other forum, yet we are all using the same Bible.

You believe that I'm trying to gather Scriptures to back up my One God theory, to somehow explain away the Trinity Doctrine. And you are correct. Are you not gathering Scriptures to back up the Trinity Doctrine? Sure you are. And we are both using the Word of God as our Foundation, to prove our point. Yes, I have submitted some other references to back up my claim, but that is not the foundation a person should use. That is merely added to show that I do know somewhat concerning this subject, and have studied the varying doctrines about who God is. And to let the people see for themselves, what former cultures have believed about God.

But our Resting Place, our Anchor, must be the Written Word of God. And being that you refute what I believe with Scripture, It would appear that you believe the same thing. I am open minded when it comes to varying doctrines, as I am but a man. I do consider what other people have to say whether I believe it or not. I trust in God to lead me unto Truth, as that is what I truly desire. As I have told people before, I don’t care what the Truth is, as long as I got it. So I’m not just trying to prove something to you or anyone else, for I am nobody. But out of Truth, and God as my witness, I’m trying to share with others that which has been Revealed to me out of the Word. Some things may seem strange, so that is why I try to put into words the Concept I’m trying to put forth, but it is hard, people misunderstand sometimes what my intent is.

I will answer your questions as soon as possible. I have a lot going on, and I know time is short. I have Web pages that I’m also writing, plus work, ect... . I want to really get into the issue about God. If a person don’t have the right concept of who God even is they will not see the rest of the Scriptures in the Light. So I take this very serious. WE are speaking about God. And He is a Living Person, and knows that we are talking about Him. He Himself wants to Reveal Himself in Truth, and this must come through the Word of God. I could through some quotes at you, but would that do any good? And what about the rest of the people that may be interested in this subject? We own it to them to present this issue with as much clarity as possible on both sides. I am a Teacher of the Word, ordained by the Lord Jesus Christ, not any church, and I lean to His Spirit in Leadership and guidance in these matters. I have no one to answer to but Him. So don’t take anything personal, as through I was discounting what you believe. As long as you or any one else debates with me in sincerity trying to express what you believe, I will answer it, in the best way possible, looking to be led by the Spirit of God in my answer. Sometimes hard things must be said, but they are said in Love, to help.

Paul
============

3/10/98
Greetings Brethren,
I’ve decided to respond to Nelson’s post for me to show that Jesus wasn’t the Eternal Son of God, or to say that He DID NOT Preexist with God in Heaven. For I believe that Jesus WAS NOT the Second Person in the Trinity, as the Trinity Doctrine portrays. And I can Prove this out of the Scriptures.
I DO believe that Jesus IS GOD, but that He is an ATTRIBUTE or Manifestation of the ONE True God in the Flesh. I also believe that He is a Man, called the Second Adam. But this Man unlike any other man, was Virgin Born, and so that SEED that was planted in the Womb of Mary, came From God and was, The WORD of GOD. And that Word SEED “Said” that He would be the Eternal GOD, The Everlasting Father, the King of Kings. So His Very Nature, His Character, His DNA In-coding, Was that Word which Spoke of Him.
And unlike other Prophets that had a Portion of the Spirit of God, because the Word did not say they would be God, He had ALL of the ATTRIBUTES of the Spirit of God, therefore He REFLECTED the FATHER. God in the FLESH. Amen.

I will post what I have completed instead of waiting until I’ve answered them all.
May the Lord God Reveal to you, the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul
============

Greetings Brethren,
This is the First post on my response to a request. I deal with the first 3 Scriptures given to me, that is supposed to Prove that Jesus Preexisted before He was born.
1.) -“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles”. Isaiah 42:1

**1b- This Scripture Does Not speak of the Preexistence of Jesus, but of His earthly ministry. For the following verses speaks of His actions once the Spirit of God is upon Him.
Isa 42:2-4 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
We see this Event Happen when He goes to the Jordan and is Baptized by John.
John 1:32-34 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

2.) -“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6 (Note:the child is the EVERLASTING FATHER)

**2b. I’m quite surprised you used this Scripture to try and prove that the “Son of God” was a “God” or “Person” (if the Trinity upholders would rather me use that word) that “Preexisted” before He came and got in a Body called Jesus the Christ. Does it not say that it was the EVERLASTING FATHER that got into that Body called Jesus the Christ? Nothing is said about the “Everlasting Son of God” being born. Because that is Who Jesus is, the Everlasting Father, the ONE True God, NOT the SECOND GOD or PERSON in the TRINITY.
This a Key verse, plus many others in the Old Testament, that Testify who Jesus is. And a person MUST have a Correct Foundation to build on in order to apply the Rest of the Scriptures in Context. The Jews were looking, ( and still are), for a Person that would be Jehovah, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, Manifested in the Flesh. Because that is what the Scriptures say He will be. That Doctrine of The Mighty God sending someone else, the Supposed “ Eternal Son of God” was not Written in Scripture, and therefore they did not believe this Concept. They were Looking for that Same God who delivered them out of Egypt, that One and the Same God who Spoke to them on the Holy Mountain. The very same Person that gave them the Law, through Moses. Not some other god that He would send to save them. He was coming Himself !!! For it is Written,
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

3.) -“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting”.Micah 5:2 4.)

**3b- Once again it does not say that the “Eternal Son of God” is from Everlasting, but that Jesus the Christ is from Everlasting, for is He not the One that was born in Bethlehem ? This is speaking of His Birth, and Who He is AFTER He is Born, not before. But those that believe in Three God’s would say that this is speaking of the Second Person in the Trinity, the Eternal Son of God, coming down from heaven and being born. But that is injecting a man made concept into it. For it does not say that. So who is this Jesus called the Christ, EMMANUEL “GOD” with us, not the “Son of God” with us.
These Gentile “Wise Men” knew Who God Was, for He had Revealed Himself to them. And they were waiting for this Same God to be born and to become the Governor, or King of the Jews. So at the appointed time He showed them by a “Star” that He was being born, that He was Clothing Himself with Human Flesh. And so they began their Journey to find and Worship this Great King, being Led by a STAR. If you will notice, the RELIGIOUS Jews that should have known about this Great Event, had no idea it was even going on! I’m sure that they were praying, “Come Thou Mighty God and Deliver Israel”, and there He was, Already on the earth. And they new it not.
I wonder, could this Repeat ? Watch the “Wise Men” Brethren, for they are still looking for the “Star Of David” to appear, and to lead them once again to the King of the Jews.
Matt 2:1-6 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came “Wise Men from the East” to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen His Star in the East, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had “heard these things”, “he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him”. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus “It Is Written” by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Paul
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Greetings Brethren,
Here is my responce to, “just who is that WORD” ?

4.-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:1-3, 14

**4b- Here also it “Does Not Say” that the “WORD” was the “Second Person”, the “Eternal Son of God”. You just will not find anywhere in Scripture, ( but you can in some Creeds by men) that it say’s that there was a Second Person in some Trinity of gods that came and was born. It does say that that WORD is GOD, and there is just ONE GOD, not THREE God’s or PERSONS. And Jesus was that ONE GOD made flesh, that WORD who is GOD REVEALED in flesh. That “WORD” in Greek is “LOGOS”, which means (1). “a thought or concept”, (2) “the expression or utterance of that thought.” Some of the Jews may have not known what LOGOS meant but what difference does it make what those Jew’s thought it meant? It was the Spirit of God that wrote the Scriptures through men, and I’m sure He knew what LOGOS meant, for He had them write it.

So we have the Invisible Almighty God (1Tim.1:17; 6:14-16, Heb.11:27) “Before” there was a beginning with His Thoughts in His Mind not yet Expressed. For there was a Beginning, so there was a “Before the Beginning” also. But “in the Beginning” was the WORD (“LOGOS” that thought or concept expressed), and that WORD ( “LOGOS” thought or concept) was with God ( His thought and Concept), and that WORD ( “LOGOS” thought or concept) WASSSSSS the Second Person in the Trinity? The Eternal Son of God ? NO! That WORD ( LOGOS thought or concept) “WAS GOD”. The Very same PERSON that Had those Thoughts was now EXPRESSED, He became the “LOGOS,” that thought of Himself, that “ATTRIBUTE” of Himself was “Expressed” in another “FORM”. (An Attribute is an inherent characteristic of a person or being). And in this Form He Created ALL things. That Invisible God became Visible, not a different God but the “SAME GOD” is now in a “Spiritual Body” called “The WORD of GOD”.

He can now be Seen, as Moses did see His back side, but not His Face. (Exod. 33:17-23) But so that He could be Seen by others He would “Cloth Himself” with different Type Forms. He would now Present Himself to others in what we call a “THEOPHANY”, which is any direct visual Manifestation of the Presence of God. The key word is visual, since God makes His presence and power known throughout the Bible in a variety of ways. But even in a Theophany a person does not actually see God Himself, that “Spiritual Body”. So from time to time He would “Cloth Himself in Flesh”, Abraham, meet Him in this fashion (Gen.18:2-33), or a “Fire or Cloud” (exodus 13: 21,22; 24:16-18) also the “Shekinah Glory” (exodus 40: 34-38), as the “Angel of God”(Exod.14:19, Acts27:23), or the “Angel of the Lord” (Gen. 16:7-14; 22:11-18 Judges 6:11-24), also the “Angel of His Presence” (Isa. 63:9). He is also known as “Melchizdek” the Priest of Salem (Gen. 14:18-20). Salem is now called Jeru-Salem. It has always been the City of “THE KING”. There are also many other references were the LORD Reveals Himself to people in “Other Forms”.

One can positively see that the LORD GOD Reveals Himself in many different Shapes and Forms. He could if He so desired, present Himself to people in a Million Different type Bodies at the Same Time. You could have Him standing and Revealing Himself all over the earth at the same Time, Yet it would be that SAME GOD in EVERY Manifestation at the Same Time. It would not be a bunch of different gods or persons, it would be that ONE GOD REVEALED. HE’s ALMIGHTY GOD! He does what He Wants, When He wants, and How He Wants it done. There is no Limits, No barriers, No Rules, No Laws, No Angels, No man, Nothing or Nobody tells Him what He can and cannot Do. And Nothing is Impossible with God. We Must accept Him as He Reveals Himself to us. And we are not to Question His Power or His Greatness, but to Believe in Him and Follow Him were He leads. And His Word, the Scriptures, contains the Revelation that Reveals Who He IS. Amen.

Those that adhere to the Trinity Doctrine will say that the “WORD” that came forth was the Beginning of the “Creation of the Son of God”. That this “Person” was now the Second Person in the Godhead, The Eternal Son of God. And that this is the Person that Created All things, not the ALMIGHTY GOD Himself. That this shows the Preexistence of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God. And that this Person, the Supposed Eternal Son of God came and got in a Body called Jesus of Nazareth. That God sent His Eternal Son from Heaven. That Doctrine is a lie and came from the pit of Hell, and that is Thus Saith the Lord!

God did not Create another God! That “WORD” was not another “Person” different than the Person Who had those Thoughts of that WORD being Expressed. That “WORD” was the ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF EXPRESSED! How could this supposed Eternal Son of God be a Created being and yet be ETERNAL? For if He was Created he would have a BEGINNING, and Eternal means Never having a Beginning. They would also try to Place this Supposed Created Son of God as an EQUAL to the ALMIGHTY GOD WHICH HAD NO BEGINNING AND HAS NO ENDING. How can something Created be Almighty ? He wasn’t even Mighty enough to bring himself into Existence. He supposedly had to have THE REAL GOD do it for him. Can’t you see the error in this doctrine? Where in Scripture can you find such a Teaching as this? They will pull out Scriptures and then put their interpretation to them, to say that this Trinity Doctrine is so. But you cannot find ANYWHERE in the SCRIPTURES where this is Taught! This is a man made Dogma and a Creed that takes away the Glory and Honor DUE to the True Mighty God Himself, and places it on another god !! This is a Pagan Concept which entered into the Church by the hands of the Roman Catholic Church. For She is MYSTERY Babylon The Great, the MOTHER of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.

In my next post I will show that when Mary Received that WORD SEED into her Womb that that is when this Scripture, the BEGINNING of the CREATION of GOD was Fulfilled.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation of God;
Paul
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By Sgt JP
(03/27/98)
Grettings in the Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! I recently had a conversation with a good friend who happens to be a devout Catholic. During our conversation I asked her about the Holy Trinity. She described to me the following: "..that God the Father was pictured as a older man with a grey beard, Jesus was the son, The Holy Spirit was Pictured as a dove Flying". I had another conversation with my Mail man who happens to be a Baptist. He stated the following: "An Egg has the Yolk, the White, and the Shell, but which part is the Egg?" This was his comparasion to the Trinity. I had another conversation with my Bro-in-law who happens to be a Jesus Name Pentecostal. He stated the following:" there is one Lord, Jesus christ, Who is the one and only God"! He also stated that you should be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. He Quoted both old and new Testaments. I personnally believe that when I face God's throne I will see my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I do believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are in the Deity of Jesus Christ. I've been Baptized both Ways (John 3:16, Acts 2:38).
My Brothers and Sisters I'm I way off base here? What are your thoughts on this highly debated subject?
God Bless America,
SGT JP
============

3/28/98
Greetings Brethren,
SGT JP,
Here is how I understand the Three different Titles of God. I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the Roman Catholic Church. I believe that Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus of the New Testament. And also Baptism in Scripture is always performed by saying in “the Name of Jesus Christ”. Not one time in Scripture does anyone baptize using the titles by saying I baptize you in the Name of the “Father, Son, Holy Spirit”. The Roman Catholic Church started this method to follow their “Trinity” doctrine. This is easily proved, and I wish it wasn’t so, but a Christian sometimes must swim against the Current to get to the truth.
Paul
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By Kent (---)
(03/27/98)
The Trinity means "Tri-unity." There is one God who exists in three distinct, eternal persons. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father, yet all 3 persons are the one God. God reveals Himself as He is, and we can't try to change Him so that He will become understandable, which is what all cults attempt to do.
1. There is only one God. James 2:19
2. The Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is a plural noun which is used with a singular verb to indicate composite oneness. Gen 1:26--Let US make man in OUR image. Gen 1:27--And GOD created man in HIS image. (Also see Gen. 11:7,9).
3. Jesus said to baptize in the NAME (singular, not "names") of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. By placing the word "and" between each, He showed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons.
The Father did NOT become the Son, and the Son did not become the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons of the godhead.
============

By Andy
(03/29/98)
YOU STATED: Not one time in Scripture does anyone baptize using the titles by saying I baptize you in the Name of the “Father, Son, Holy Spirit”. The Roman Catholic Church started this method to follow their Trinity” doctrine. This is easily proved, and I wish it wasn’t so, but a Christian sometimes must swim against the Current to get to the truth.
SCRIPTURE'S RESPONSE:
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." There is where Jesus Himself said to baptize in this way. Talk about swimming against the "current" to get the truth .. perhaps you need to do this yourself.
To God be the glory!
Andy
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By Andy
(03/29/98)
His Name is Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. It's not an easy thing for finite beings to understand, Al, but God has three Persons yet is One God. Each Person has a specific "responsibility" as spelled out in the New Testament. They are unique yet One. Can we understand that? Not really. He is God and we are finite beings that will never be infinite. I believe the fullness of God will never be realized by us since He IS infinite. Towards the bottom of this thread, second from the bottom, you'll see a post by me to the Sgt. Take a look at it and see if it helps you understand just a little more.
To God be the glory!
Andy
============

3/29/98
Greetings Brethren

Concerning Baptism- First thing, you must be baptized, for it is written , “He that believes And is baptized shall be saved; and he that believes not shall be damned”. (you wouldn’t be baptized if you didn’t believe, but because you believe you are baptized.) Mark 16:16

Peter told the Brethren on the Day of Pentecost the way of Salvation, and the Name to be Baptized in. Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the Name of The (Father, Son, Holy Ghost?) no, Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of your sins. You cannot find any were in the Bible were the Christians ever baptized using the Titles of Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Did Peter, Paul, and the rest of the Apostles Teach False Doctrine by having the Christians Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ and not saying in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost? Or is it that they had the Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

So what I’m simple trying to say is why not follow the Method of the True First Church? That which is Written in your Bible, for are we not to be led by the Word of God? Every Christian was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. Look for yourself and see If I’m with the Word or not. Am I injecting anything into the Gospel, or am I simple stating what the Gospel says? You Must make a Choice as to whom your going to Believe, either what the Apostles and Prophets wrote or what somebody else says is the Way of Salvation.
( Matt.28:18:-20; Acts 2:37-41; 8:12-16; 10:44-48;19:1-7; 22:14-16)

The Matt 28:19 Scripture is used Sort of like when the President says something, and then somebody else says, “what the President Really Meant was” ect...So who are you going to believe has the correct interpretation of Matt 28:19? The Apostles or the Roman Catholic Church? Who are you going to side with, and which doctrine are you going to defend?

Remember Its the Roman Catholic Church that changed the true method of Baptism. And I’m not trying to be Anti-Catholic for saying these things, but I’m simple speaking the truth. Are you people wanting the Truth, or the interpretations of some man or men, and what they think. For myself I trust the Apostles and Prophets, for God put His Stamp of Approval on them. As for anyone that Speaks Against what they said, and believes they have a better way or another way of Salvation, that’s between them and God. But I’m not going to Follow them, for who are they Following?

So if you have not been Baptized In Christian Baptism, that which All Christians were Baptized, Repent, and be Baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of your sins, (And Then) and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is the Gate by which you enter the Kingdom of God, don’t try to enter any other way.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Paul
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By Kent (---)
(03/29/98)
I wish I had more time to address everything you have said, but I will respond to this right now:
YOU SAID: "Those that adhere to the Trinity Doctrine will say that the “WORD” that came forth was the Beginning of the “Creation of the Son of God”."
Kent:
Wrong! We do not believe in "the beginning of the Creation of the Son of God" as you say. Jesus existed from eternity past, not as a thought but as the Word. See Micah 5:2 and Matt. 2:6.
YOU SAID:
"That this “Person” was now the Second Person in the Godhead, The Eternal Son of God. And that this is the Person that Created All things, not the ALMIGHTY GOD Himself."
Kent:
We do not believe in the Eternal Sonship of Jesus. As Walter Martin has said, "The Word already existed...The Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God. When the Word became flesh there was a change in relationship, the Word becomes the Son."
YOU SAID:
" That this shows the Preexistence of Jesus Christ, as the Son of God. And that this Person, the Supposed Eternal Son of God came and got in a Body called Jesus of Nazareth. That God sent His Eternal Son from Heaven. That Doctrine is a lie and came from the pit of Hell."
Kent:
This Scripture speaks for itself: "Therefore, when He COMES INTO the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering Thou has not desired, but A BODY THOU HAST PREPARED FOR ME..." (Heb. 10:5) Notice the Word COMES INTO the world, meaning He existed before it, and He comes to a body which has been prepared for Him.
In the near future I will be making a list of about 20-25 Scriptures showing Jesus existed before He came into the world and I will post it on my web site. But for now, here are a few: John 3:13--He who DESCENDED from heaven, the Son of Man John 6:51--I am the living bread THAT CAME DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN John 17:5--And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory WHICH I EVER HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
Kent
============

3/29/98
Greetings Brethren,
Kent,
First thing there are many different ways different Churches preach the Trinity. So the statements you said you didn’t believe in, some do. If you was to go search the subject you would see what I mean.

But for most churches there is one core concept that is preached, howbeit in many different ways. And that is this:
Jesus the Christ had a preexistence as God but was a separate “Person” from God the Father, the Eternal One, The Almighty, and the Many other names given to this Great One.
And again, That Jesus was and is the WORD but He is a different Person than God the Father and was “with” God in the Beginning. And it is this Person that created all things.
And this concept is where the error comes in. For Jesus did have a preexistence as the Word for it is written as such, but He is not a different “Person” than God the Father. For The Word is God the Father Expressing Himself in another Attribute. For there is only One God not three. One “Person” not three “Persons” making up this One Godhead.

So the next thing a person may say is, was Jesus talking to Himself when He Prayed if He was God the Father? No, of course not. God, the Word, created Himself a human body to get into. So Jesus was both God and a Man. Does not the Scriptures say “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”Isa.9:6. How many God’s are there? How many Father’s are there? I know of only One. But it is being taught that there are more than One God and that is not the Truth.

Jesus was none other than Jehovah in the Flesh! Not some other god but God Himself was Revealed. So that is a pagan concept when somebody goes to saying that there are gods in heaven who seemingly are in unity in thought, substance, and Equal, but are separate and different Persons, yet agree in One making up the Godhead. That is not preached or taught anywhere in the Bible. I challenge anyone to show me where it says that. You may take some Scriptures and interpret it that way, but you will not find one place any Prophet or Apostle taught such a doctrine.

If you can understand how Jesus was the One True God yet was a Man which had His own thoughts, feelings, and desires. Yet He was not a Different God or Person than God Himself, you will understand the Godhead. If you can’t understand that, then believe that there is One True God not three, that Jesus was that One True God Revealed in Flesh called the Son of God, and that through this One True God came Salvation. For only by the Name of Jesus Christ, the Name of that One True God, is there Salvation.

Here is a little parable: Say you was looking through a pair of binoculars and you seen what you thought was three men in a field. But when you focused the binoculars you realized that there was only one. Even so if you will use the Scriptures and not man made dogmas when looking at God, those three god’s your seeing will come into Focus and you will only see the One True God.
Paul
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By Kent (---)
(03/30/98)
Calling upon Jesus to be saved is an act of FAITH. Baptism is an act of OBEDIENCE.
Don't confuse the two. It's the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin, not water (1 John 1:7). The thief on the cross wasn't baptized and he went to paradise. He was under the New Covenant because Jesus died before he did.
Paul said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius." (1 Cor. 1:14) He couldn't say that if he believed baptism was necessary for salvation. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved..." is a true statement. But it's also true those who have believed and are not been baptized shall also be saved. The rest of the verse says,"...but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mark 16:16) It doesn't say "and is not baptized."
Now as to the name, you completely ignore Jesus' statement which is found in every Greek manuscript, "baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 19:28) The fact that all three persons (not gods) are mentioned with the Greek words "kai tou" (and the) between each, it confirms they all exist AT THE SAME TIME, yet are distinct from one another.
As far as the Book of Acts:
We do not find anyone who is baptized "in the name of Jesus." We find in Acts 2:38, 8:12, 19:5 they were baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ." In Acts 8:16, 19:5 they were baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus."The Pentecostal church has been using the wrong formula! Actually, "in the name of" isn't a formula or magic words to produce salvation. It means, "by the authority of." By the authority of Jesus, we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I have no problem if someone is baptized in the name of Jesus, the Lord Jesus, or the Lord Jesus Christ." I do have a problem with those who say it's necessary to salvation--that's heresy. That makes it Christ PLUS you to produce salvation.
Kent
============

Greetings Brethren,
Kent,
The first thing we need to do here is first establish that we are not dealing with some doctrines of men but the Word of God. We must be Very careful what we teach. For it is written:
Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You said in your opening statement:
Calling upon Jesus to be saved is an act of FAITH. Baptism is an act of OBEDIENCE.

That is what I believe, but are you not preaching against fulfilling the next part and being disobedient to the Word? You are on very dangerous ground preaching a different Gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For not only are you preaching another method of Baptism you are also proclaiming that it is not even necessary to be Baptized. When the WORD says that a person IS to be Baptized and the Words to be used in the Baptism is acts 2:38, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. For you said,

Paul said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius." (1 Cor. 1:14) He couldn't say that if he believed baptism was necessary for salvation.

Paul the Apostle Believed it was necessary to be Baptized. You have taken that Verse you quoted and are trying to prove Paul didn’t believe it was necessary to baptize, and are perverting its meaning. For it is quite plain what Paul is talking about, and what context he meant it in.

1 Cor 1:12-15 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Then you go on to say;
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved..." is a true statement. But it's also true those who have believed and are not been baptized shall also be saved. The rest of the verse says,"...but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mark 16:16) It doesn't say "and is not baptized."

Have you not just ADDED to the Scripture? For the Scriptures do not speak this. You are really struggling and fighting against Baptism. Why? Have you been Baptized? Are you a Believer? If you are then you NEED to be Baptized according to the Word of God. If your not a Believer Will you want to be Baptized? OF COURSE NOT. For only a Believer will be Baptized!!! A believer in what? The Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Another attempt to establish your false doctrine was using the thief on the Cross to somehow prove your point. For you said:

The thief on the cross wasn't baptized and he went to paradise. He was under the New Covenant because Jesus died before he did.

It is quite plain that the thief did not have a chance to be Baptized. Was he not hanging on a Cross beside Jesus? But if somehow he would have been set free he would have been Baptized! Because those that Believe Jesus OBEY His Voice. And He said:

Matt 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Which brings me to this very Verse which is used by those who refuse to be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. This really puzzles me to say the least. You would think a Christian would want to be Identified with the Lord. Does not a bride take on the bridegrooms name when she is married that she may be Identified with her husband? Yet I have found that most Christians who say they are a member of the Bride of Christ refuse to be Identified with the Bridegroom by taking on His Name in Baptism!
But instead they will be Identified with the Roman Catholic Church or her Daughters the Denominations! For they are the only ones that are baptized using the names of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The Christians NEVER were. Why is this?

Because they don’t believe that Jesus is the ONE True God! They serve Three god’s and therefore they must be Baptized in the Titles of Each of these god’s. They are Identifying themselves with these three different gods instead of being Identified with the One True God Himself which is Jesus Christ. They don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father as saith the Scripture. They don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the Manifestation of the Word in the Flesh. But they believe that He is just one of those three persons in the trinity! Therefore to be baptized just in His Name would be leaving out the other two persons in the trinity.
So they close their eyes and Refuse to See that EVERY Christian that was ever Baptized in the Bible was Baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ! They Refuse to obey the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and then they try to defend this false gospel with man made dogmas which explain away the Truth. But never the less the Scriptures say that Jesus is the Father and that He also had His Spirit Dwelling in Him in Fullness. Therefore, Jesus is the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. For He was Emmanuel, God with US! Not the Son of God with us! Or the second person in some trinity with us. Amen

When a person receives the Revelation of Jesus Christ and then accepts Him as Lord and Saviour they will be baptized in His Name. Every single time the Gospel was preached and someone believed it as written in the book of Acts, they was immediately Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ! There was no theological debate on this matter. They didn’t say if you want to be baptized go ahead, but it really doesn’t matter! IT DOES MATTER! Baptism is to follow Repentance as Saith the SCRIPTURES. Not only do we have it Written to do such, but we also see it Demonstrated EVERY TIME! How can you explain this away when it is so evidently set forth? The Spirit of God would not go against His own Word. ( Acts 2:37-41; 8:12-16; 10:44-48; 19:1-7; 22:14-16)

This is the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no other!
Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Notice the ones that Are baptized, are those that GLADLY Receive the Word, not those that Angrily REFUSE it.
Acts 2:41 Then they that Gladly Received His Word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So who are we to listen to, the so called theologians who explain away the Scriptures, or to the Apostles and Prophets which is God’s provided way?

Im not mad or trying to be harsh or mean, but the Spirit of God is angry that His Word is being perverted and not taught in Truth. For these man made traditions is causing the Word of God not to have the Effect in the people as it ought to. You are hiding the Very Key and closing the Very Door to Salvation by your Traditions! Repent least you find yourself cast into outer darkness where there will be wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Paul
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By Nelson
(03/30/98)
Paul,
Remember last month sometime you asked for scritural proof that Christ was pre-incarnate? You said he didn't exist before he was concieved. You said there was no scriptural evidence. You also said to just read the bible for what it was worth and not try man's interpretation.
Well, I listed 20 +verses for you...like Col 1:15-17. Well, I was just wondering if you were ever going to follow up on that post. Are you? Do I need to list all those verses again for you? I will be glad to.
Col 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...". Now, I ask you (without applying your man made wisdom), if you were unfamiliar with the trinity doctrine...what would that  verse say to you? Was Christ around before he was incarnated? I will list more if I need to...I don't mind.
In Him,
Nelson
============

4/1/98
Greeting Brethren,
Nelson I have tried to show by the Scriptures as plain as I can that Jesus is not the Second person in some trinity of gods. And your not understanding me when I say that Jesus did not exist before He was Revealed on earth. He was the Word Revealed, and of course the Word was in the beginning before anything. But what I’m saying is that Jesus or the Word was not a different Person than God the Father. The Word WAS the ONE TRUE GOD REVEALED. Even as Jesus WAS the ONE TRUE GOD REVEALED. Its the Same Person Revealing Himself in different ways. Don’t you see this?

For me to go and answer all those other verses you gave would take up a lot of my time. Tell me if I did would it do any good? If your going to believe in a trinity of gods instead of their just being One God who is One Person not Three, would you believe the Scriptures that ALWAYS proclaims that there is just ONE GOD? Or would you turn their meaning to fit your doctrine?

You asked me this Question:
Col 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...". Now, I ask you (without applying your man made wisdom), if you were unfamiliar with the trinity doctrine...what would that verse say to you?

It would say to me that All things were created by Him as saith the Scripture. I believe that! And anyone that is unfamiliar with the Trinity doctrine and hasn’t been taught it would believe the same. But those that do believe the Trinity doctrine Don’t believe that Jesus is the One True God the WORD, but instead that He is the second person out of three gods in the trinity. Therefore they would not be applying this verse correctly, for the HIM that created All things is the Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. These Three are ONE. Its the Same Person. If you will just shift your thinking around a little bit and see Jesus as Jehovah all the Scriptures will come together for you.

I have a very hard time getting someone to see the correct method of baptism because of this trinity doctrine. It shows how much it will blind a person to the Truth of who God really is. Because if a person refuses to accept that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that there is just One Person in the Godhead and not three; how would he understand being baptized in just the name of Jesus Christ? For He sees three gods in Heaven not One. And even though every Christian was baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ in the book of Acts they will turn and explain that away because it don’t fit this Trinity concept. Do you see what I mean?
Paul
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By Nelson
(04/01/98)
Paul,
You have an incorrect concept of the trinity, or at least the trinity as it is taught in most churches. I could really care less what the RC's teach on the subject. I was simply answering your statement "you can find no where in scripture where Christ is in heaven before his incarnation". You're right "these three are ONE". That's the whole point! It's not polytheism. If it where, they would not be one, but three seperate beings all together...not having anything to do with the other (like Zues...Venus...Mercury, etc). But they are ONE, but we call them the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.
You need to be ary careful about making blanket statements like "But those that do believe the Trinity doctrine Don’t believe that Jesus is the One True God the WORD, but instead that He is the second person out of three gods in the trinity." You really have no idea what you're talking about!! You read something that was written 1700 years ago that you don't like and naturally assume that anyone who uses the same term MUST believe the same thing, word for word. I believe in the trinity, but I don't believe that Jesus is the second out of three gods. He is God "My lord, my God" (Thomas). God is God. Holy SPirit is God. These three are one (1 John 5:7).
You seem to be pulling a Clinton. You said Jesus wasn't around in the beginning, I aswered that, now you say that's not what you meant. Quit waffling around and be specific. When you say JEsus was not pre-incarnate...that only means one thing to me. NOw you say he's not. Maybe it would be best if we ended this discussion altogether.
In Him,
NElson
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4/1/98
Greetings Brethren,

Nelson you made this statement:
You're right "these three are ONE". That's the whole point! It's not polytheism. If it where, they would not be one, but three seperate beings all together...not having anything to do with the other (like Zues...Venus...Mercury, etc). But they are ONE, but we call them the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Amen, why didn’t you say that earlier that you believed in One God who has Revealed Himself in Three different Persons, yet it is the Same Person in each Manifestation? I know that there are Christians that don’t believe in that Unholy concept of there being Three different Persons who are distinct and separate from each other, but yet they use the Trinity doctrine to try and explain this. So how am I to know what they really believe? For The Trinity doctrine as used by most churches preaches Polytheism but hides it in great swelling words of mans wisdom.

I know you said this:
You really have no idea what you're talking about!! You read something that was written 1700 years ago that you don't like and naturally assume that anyone who uses the same term MUST believe the same thing, word for word. I believe in the trinity, but I don't believe that Jesus is the second out of three gods.

I assume that because it is normally so. That Trinity doctrine that started 1700 years ago is still taught today by most churches. Just take a look at a Denominations proclamation of belief on God and you will see its that same doctrine. But because you don’t believe that concept you are not seeing it in the way it is meant to be seen. I know this by experience as I have dealt with many people on this issue. Once they see what that Trinity Doctrine is really saying they will stop using it to explain the Godhead. In there mind they are not believing that doctrine but using it to proclaim the Godhead. So it becomes very confusing as to who really believes that Trinity doctrine as it is meant to be understood. Just take a look at Kents posts, Tims posts, and you will see that what is being said is what the RC teaches. If you don’t believe that go to a Roman Catholic Church website which explains the Trinity doctrine and you will see that this is true. Now do I know if they really understand what they are preaching? No. So what I do is attack that Doctrine to show what is really being said and meant by many who do preach it and believe it in that way. I’m simple defending the faith once handed down to the saints my brother. I’m trying to help my brothers and sisters in Christ, believe it or not.

Now for your last statement:
You seem to be pulling a Clinton. You said Jesus wasn't around in the beginning, I aswered that, now you say that's not what you meant. Quit waffling around and be specific. When you say JEsus was not pre-incarnate...that only means one thing to me. NOw you say he's not

I thought you believed the Trinity doctrine as it is meant to be believed so therefore I said what I said according to the implication of those who say that Jesus was pre-incarnate as another god separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit in heaven. Here is what I said. (I copy all the posts on this forum that I’m involved in just for cases like this.)
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3/10/98
Greetings Brethren,
I’ve decided to respond to Nelson’s post for me to show that Jesus wasn’t the Eternal Son of God, or to say that He DID NOT Preexist with God in Heaven. For I believe that Jesus WAS NOT the Second Person in the Trinity, as the Trinity Doctrine portrays. And I can Prove this out of the Scriptures.

You see my brother how confusing this doctrine can be and what it causes? I say we get away from its use and speak of the Godhead using the Scriptures. Its not mentioned in the Bible so why must we even refer to it? This debate would not even be happening if the Roman Catholic Church would have only stayed with the WORD.
Paul
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By Nelson
(04/01/98)
Paul,
I guess you don't remember me stating all of this in the first place.The trinity doctrine is confusing...I agree. But go back and look at my posts to you (the very first ones) and you will see that I established my concept of the trinity long ago. Jesus is God, not a seperate god. God the Father is God, not another God. Same with the Holy Ghost. To be quit honest, we can barely concieve in our frail little minds what God is, much less how the the persons of God are manifested. As far as the RC's staying with scripture, good luck. Only a few do, most follow the party line. Remember when I told you that I was never taught the trinity doctrine the way you've portrayed it? Well, that still goes. In my ministering, I've had an opportunity to speak to many different denom's...RC's included. None I have ever meet has ever regarded the trinity in the way you said the original doctrine was portrayed. As for your response on 3/10/98, I still don't get what you were trying to say. I printed out your original response to me. I was arguing the point that Jesus was around before 2 BC, for that is what your response seemed to indicate a disbelief in. Read some of your original posts and see how it could have been mistaken as such.
In Him,
Nelson
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4/1/98
Greetings Brethren,
Nelson,
You are putting it kindly when you speak of our ability to understand God. It would sort of be like a ant trying to understand a man. Do you think an ant can think like a man? Nor can we as humans think like God, nor understand God. We walk by faith (Revelation) and that not of ourselves it is also a Gift from God. The Lord gives us the understanding of the Word as we need it. The rest of the time we walk as men looking to the Lord for those Revelations to lead us. His Word is our Daily Bread, for man shall not live by bread alone but by Every Word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God. That is why I’m so hard and forceful when it comes to defending the Word. I know that it is the only thing on this earth that has been given to man whereby he can know God in Truth. And I know it must be spoken and presented in Truth to perform that which it is sent to do. Then God gives the Increase, He brings His Own Word to pass to fulfill that which it is meant to fulfill. Amen

I’m also glad to here that the churches you visit don’t believe in the Trinity as it is taught by the RC’s. I mean just think about it, they are thinking about making Mary co-redeemer, they already worship her as a god. So it goes to show they do preach and endorse worshipping multiple gods. As long as it is one of their gods. And I agree that there is real Christians that are in the Catholic Churches that don’t believe the heresies taught. Did you know half of the Catholic population is in America? So those false doctrines are prevalent in this country.

If you still don’t understand what I’m trying to say, pertaining to what is really meant by the Trinity doctrine, and how they believe Jesus pre-existed by those who brought it forth. I can post, send, or direct you to a web site that will show you what they intend it to mean.

Yes I can see how I misunderstood what you said, even as you misunderstood what I said. I need to be more careful and inquire first more carefully what someone believes. This is my first time to ever be on a forum and so this is all new to me. But I’m learning, and hopefully I won’t repeat my mistakes, even through I may. Pray for me as I do want to help uphold the faith along with the Brethren. I would give my life in defense this Gospel, and likewise in defense of a Brother or Sister in Christ.
Paul
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By Kent (---)
(04/01/98)
Paul,
Just so new believers don't get confused, YOUR teachings are those of a CULT! You even call yourself "The apostle Paul"! What arrogance. You are nothing near the Apostle Paul or his teachings!
Answer these questions:
1. Does the blood of Christ or water wash away sins? See 1 John 1:7 for the answer.
2. Are you saved by grace through faith, or do we have to add a work to the cross such as baptism? See Eph. 2:8-9 for the answer.
3. Where does it say the thief on the cross (who wasn't baptized but went to paradise) didn't have to be baptized because he didn't have the opportunity? That is your loophole to get out of this verse!
4. Could YOU truthfully say, "I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU except Crispus and Gaius." (1 Cor. 1:14) and "For Christ DID NOT SEND ME TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void." (1 Cor. 1:17). The REAL Apostle Paul said those words, and I have a hard time believing you can say them.
5. How could the REAL Apostle Paul be called "brother" by Ananias and be filled with the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized? (Acts 9:17-18)
6. Why didn't Peter mention baptism in Acts 10:43?
7. How could they receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized? (Acts 10:44-48)
8. Why doesn't John 3:16 mention baptism?
9. Why doesn't Romans 10:8-10 mention baptism?
10. Why doesn't Acts 2:21 mention baptism? (I could list numerous other verses on salvation not mentioning baptism. If baptism is necessary for salvation, why isn't it mentioned in EVERY verse?)
11. You are STILL sidestepping Matt. 28:19 by saying the Catholic Church said this verse. My question is, did JESUS make the following commandment? ( Yes or No answer without any commentary): "baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19) [The fact that all three persons (not gods) are mentioned with the Greek words "kai tou" (and the) between each,it confirms they all exist AT THE SAME TIME, yet are distinct from one another.]
12. Is the correct formula for baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 2:38, 8:12, 19:5) or "in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 8:16,19:5)?
13. If you will read the post below on "The Pre-Existence of Jesus" you will find about 25 verses proving Jesus existed before He came to earth.
Kent
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By Nelson
(04/01/98)
Paul,
First of all, you need to understand Kent's arguement. He is not against baptism...as I am not. I'm Baptist...let's dunk 'em, no little sprinkles here! The bible is very clear that you are saved first, then baptized (acts 8:37). It is emmersion. No doubts there.
What Kent is saying is that salvation does not come from baptism. You can be saved without being baptized. However, if you are truly saved...then you WILL WANT to be baptized. Kent was not adding to the word on his suggestions of scripture. Jesus said a+b=salvation. Then he said -a=condemnation. So in other words, not having done b does not condem you. That is an old Protestant arguement which has been used against the Catholic stand on "Baptism saves" for hundreds of years. Baptism does not save. Faith alone saves. If you are saved, then you will want to follow the Lord in scriptural baptism, not to save your soul from hell (that was done on the cross), but to identify yourself with the Lord. If I was to die tonight, and gave my self to Jesus 2 minutes before hand, without being baptized, I will still be with Jesus. Some denominations say I will not be, because i have not been baptized. I believe that this is the concept that Kent is trying to get across here (Kent, if I'm off the mark...please tell me...then You and I will talk:)
In Him,
Nelson
PS Paul, please answer his questions so he will know where you stand.
============

Greetings Brethren,
Kent,
Upon the request of Nelson I will answer your questions.

But before I do I don’t understand where your coming from, unless it is a Nelson suggested that you think I believe you Must be Baptized to be saved. Let me say it another way.
If a person receives Jesus as Saviour, their sins are remitted, they are justified, and stand before God cleansed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. If they died before they are baptized they would be saved and of course go to Heaven. Baptism does not Remit sins, does not justify a believer, does not save a man. Baptism is an ordinance, ( as communion, and feet washing) that is performed to show that a person believes they have been washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ for the Remission of their sins. It is Symbolic of death and rising to a new life in Christ Jesus. Many other types can also apply to baptism but never in Scripture does it speak of Baptism as an ordinance whereby it will save you.

But a person is commanded to be baptized after they have received the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is not an option, that one would make a choice on wither he would want to or not. And of course if he is a believer he will be baptized. That is why it says “he that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.”Mk 16:16 Because you are a believer you will be baptized. If you are not a believer, why would you want to be baptized?

So if you somehow assumed that I believed that a person Must be baptized to be saved, because I quoted that verse in Mk 16:16, you were mistaken. I have never believed that, and never have I taught that.

So if that is what you thought I was preaching, even though I never said anything like that, now you know. On my side, all I could see was someone trying to do away with the Ordinance of Baptism.

So please forgive me if I mistook what you was trying to defend, If that be the case, which I hope it is.

I will put off answering those questions for now until this matter is cleared up. This is a very hard medium to communicate through, and I know things that are said are taken wrong sometimes by the readers.

Im going to see if I can’t figure out a way to resolve this problem. Perhaps a statement pertaining to the general belief of a doctrine applied in such a way whereas to clear up all wonderings of the readers of what that person believes or doesn’t believe pertaining to that subject?
Sounds good but would that even work? Could a person cover all the bases? I bet that would become a debate within itself. Debate, debate, debate....that seems to be all I ever do. :{)
Paul
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By Kent (---)
(04/03/98)
Paul,
Your previous posts seemed to indicate that baptism saves you. I'm glad to hear you don't believe that. I am for baptism, but as a pastor I always clarify to those whom I baptize that they are already saved and baptism is an act of obedience. Any time we try to add to the cross (with our works), we subtract from it. When Jesus said, "It is finished," He meant it.
The issue of the Tri-unity of God is an important one. I was reading in my devotional time yesterday and the first verse said, "Paul...to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Thess 1:1). "And to wait from His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead..." There's no way someone can say the Father and Son are the same person. I could list kazoodles of additional Scriptures, but a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Unless you understand that God first revealed Himself as Elohim (plural noun with singular verb), you will never understand the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The word "one" in Hebrew (echad) means composite unity, not absolute unity. The morning and evening were one (echad) day (Gen. 1) The two shall become one (echad) flesh. Jesus further revealed this "one" is a composite unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
I probably won't make any more posts concerning this, simply because I work about 13 hours per day as it is and no need to keep re-hashing this.
Kent

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