Star of David Ministries
Copyright 1998-2000 Paul L McAroy


First Posted
[08/24/1998]
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mt 7:7  
Seek... and you Shall Find
Updated
[08/17/2000]

An open debate on a forum over whither or not the Jews who now profess Jesus Christ known as the “Messaniac Jews” are part of the 144,000.

March 27 - April 5, 1998

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3/27/98
Greetings Brethren,

Does anyone have any Proof that these Rabbi's really believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

I've read the letter that the Sister said that one of these Rabbi's told her this,in Jerusalem, and that he gave her some notes. But doesn't it seem odd that she would want to SELL what he GAVE to her? It just didn't set right with me.

Are they claiming to be Born Again by the Spirit of God? Or they in the condition of the Jews at Jesus’ first appearance before Pentecost? Believers but not Born Again ?

Israel shall be Born in ONE DAY, and there shall rise up one from the East, which shall seal these 144,000 Jews with the Spirit of God. And that one is one of those Two End Time Prophets. So this makes me wonder if all this I'm hearing is true. It may be, but I really need to know what they believe, and what they think is happening to them.
Rev.7:2-8; 11:1-13

Does anybody know just One Rabbi, to verify this is really happening?

Please Email me that I may speak to one of these Rabbi's if you would. If is more that just curiosity that I ask this.

Paul
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By Andy
(03/27/98)
Rest assured, "Apostle" Paul, the report is real. Neither you nor anyone else will hear of any names due to the sensitivity of their position. There is no "proof" .. believe it or not, makes no difference. They exist .. praise God, they exist.

To God be the glory!
Andy
============

3/28/98
Greetings Brethren,

Andy you made this comment,
Rest assured, "Apostle" Paul, the report is real. Neither you nor anyone else will hear of any names due to the sensitivity of their position. There is no "proof" .. believe it or not, makes no difference. They exist .. praise God, they exist.

Brother, I’m not looking for any names. It makes me no difference who they are. For that is not what I’m asking. And I’m sorry if it appeared so, as I can understand your response if you thought I meant that. It’s just that I’ve been reading these posts pertaining to the (conversion?) of these Jews and am simply trying to find out 2 things.

1- Is this really happening, or is this just a story someone made up?

2- If this is true is it even Scriptural to be happening the way it is. Shouldn’t we do that? Or are we to accept it on face value?

You seem to be convinced that it is True, so do you have Firsthand knowledge, or did somebody tell you about this? Do you know just One of these Rabbi’s, and therefore could confirm that it is True? Look my brother, Rumors get started all the time. I can give you a long list of rumors that even masses of people thought were true. So am I wrong in asking this?

Would you not also agree that Satan knows that there will be 144,000 Jews who will fulfill Scripture in the Tribulation? Would it be out of place to think that he would try to raise up something false to deceive the people when the real happens? Did he not send False Messiah’s before the Real Messiah appeared? And did not that make the people wonder if this was just another “one of those groups” again? Acts 5:34-39. What about all the men that think that they are those Two Prophets in Rev.11? Why you can find them everywhere. So when the people hear about Two Prophets rising in Israel won’t they be inclined to say “it’s just more of those crazy guys again”? Especially if the leaders in the Church and Government say that they are fake? Think about it. Satan is preparing. So we must not be ignorant of his schemes.

So lets say its true about these Rabbi’s. Is not Israel (144,000) to be converted and sealed in the Holy Spirit by the Ministry of the Two Prophets in Rev 7:2-8; 11:3-12? Am I to look over this? Therefore I asked what do they believe is going on? Are they waiting for these Two? Are they there already? Do they believe they don’t need these Two Prophets? Do they believe they are Born Again (Sealed), or just converted waiting to be Born Again and sealed by the Ministry of those Prophets? Do you see what I mean? It must be a Scriptural Event for it to be Scriptural. Otherwise its a deception.

If you have firsthand knowledge of the above questions please inform us. Would it not clear this all up? As for me, I check everything by the Word, and if its Scriptural I believe it.

Paul
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By IsaiahMan
(03/28/98)
You said: "But doesn't it seem odd that she would want to SELL what he GAVE to her?"
No. They asked her to sell it. I know that they would not talk to you. Rabbis from the hasssidim who teach at the yeshivas in Israel would not entertain discussions with gentiles -- especially gentiles who wished to "drill" them about whether or not their doctrine is OK. Come on Paul, God is bigger than that.

Bob
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3/28/98
Greetings Brethren,

IsaiahMan,
In response to my question about the sister Selling what the Rabbi Gave her and myself feeling that something is odd about that, you said,

"But doesn't it seem odd that she would want to SELL what he GAVE to her"? No. They asked her to sell it.

I tried to find that url again to recheck what she said but was unable to. I may be wrong but I didn’t see where she said that. But nevertheless it would be Worse if “They” ( I’m supposing the “They” are the Rabbi’s) told her to Sell doctrine that God supposedly was given to them by the Holy Spirit. Is it now OK to make merchandise out of Revelations given to someone by the LORD? Do we now have to Buy the Revealed Word of God?

I can understand people selling books, Tapes ect.. and expecting money because of the very cost of manufacturing the product. But it sure doesn’t cost any thing to put forth something someone said over the Web. And did she not put over the Web the whole story except that part? So spending $8.00 for something that a supposed Messianic Rabbi received of the Lord, well.... that just doesn’t strike me that that is something the Holy Spirit would be a part of. But I’m sure that “Somebody” has made some money by the people just being Curious of what this Rabbi supposedly said.

Im sorry, but I just don’t believe it, based on the information I have. There is also much more I could say pertaining to the whole event, but this is enough.

You also said,

I know that they would not talk to you. Rabbis from the Hassidim who teach at the yeshivas in Israel would not entertain discussions with gentiles -- especially gentiles who wished to "drill" them about whether or not their doctrine is OK. Come on Paul, God is bigger than that.

Well first off if they are really Born of the Spirit of God they would know that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus. They also would not have a hatred or dislike to someone in Christ Jesus be it Jew or Gentile. So it sounds like to me your describing the old Jewish Pharisees who are exalted in their own mind. For only by the Spirit of God comes Enlightenment, Truth, and Revelation. And anyone who really has received that acknowledges it so. They won’t be puffed up in their mind as though they have attained this by their own strength, wisdom, or knowledge, or just because they are a Jew.

Also I never said I wanted to “Drill” them about their doctrine. But said this,

Are they claiming to be Born Again by the Spirit of God? Or are they in the condition of the Jews at Jesus’ first appearance before Pentecost? Believers but not Born Again? Israel shall be Born in ONE DAY, and there shall rise up one from the East, which shall seal these 144,000 Jews with the Spirit of God. And that one is one of those Two End Time Prophets. So this makes me wonder if all this I'm hearing is true. It may be, but I really need to know what they believe, and what they think is happening to them. Rev.7:2-8; 11:1-13.

So are we now to cast away the Scriptures just because some Rabbi’s say they believe in Jesus? How do you know that this isn’t a Trick of the Devil, to deceive the people when the 144,000 Jews do arrive on the Scene? Won’t God bring this event about by His Word? Or are we now to accept what some Rabbi’s say, and ignore the Word itself?

Paul

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By Andy
(03/29/98)
Please understand, Paul. These men absolutely can NOT be made public. There are people that would kill them in a heartbeat if they knew who they were.

The choice to believe they exist or not is completely up to the individual. I personally believe, with all my heart, they exist. There are alot of people in this world that have to keep their identity with Jesus a secret. If you lived in Communist China you would have one of two choice: Either admit you're a Christian and die for it or two: keep your Christianity a "secret" from the main public and serve God in the underground. These individuals MUST serve Yeshua in the underground in order to preserve the movement, one that must be in place for the end times to even occur. I am not even going to say where these individuals may be. Perhaps here in the US. Perhaps in Israel. Perhaps it is all just a big fib. It doesn't matter what you believe, I just know that God is working behind the scenes in ways that NONE of us has any concept of. He WILL fulfil His purposes. He is sovereign.
To God be the glory!

============

By IsaiahMan
(03/28/98)
Paul,
Please understand the item that is being sold over the internet is not the information that is presented on the internet. It is selected teachings that came out of their group. Those teachings were given to an individual in the US and she translated them. She was asked to get those teachings into the hands of anyone who wanted them. She was also told that she should charge to cover the cost of her time in translating, editing, producing, and buying the printed materials. The 8 bucks covers her cost. These are reflections from gospel stories by one particular rabbi in the group. I have read them. Some of them are absolutely amazing.

Your argument about merchandising the word of God shows that you do not possess even the simplest of economic understandings. You do not understand that products -- even printed ones -- come with a cost and that someone must bear that cost. The fact that they will not discuss things with gentiles has nothing to do with a hatred of them. It has to do with rightful succession. It has to do with ritualistic purity. It has to do with the “changing of the guard” from gentile to Jew. You believe that since they will not discuss issues with gentiles that makes them “puffed up.” That is very, very simple. Who said that they had obtained this by their own strength, wisdom, or knowledge, or just because they are a Jew. Here are some other things you said (in quotes) and my response.

“Believers but not Born Again?”
This statement is obviously not traditional, historic and accepted Christian doctrine. All believers are born again. The end -- anything else is heresy.

“Israel shall be Born in ONE DAY, and there shall rise up one from the East, which shall seal these 144,000 Jews with the Spirit of God. And that one is one of those Two End Time Prophets.”

You’re just plain makin’ this up . . . . it’s not in the Bible.

“So this makes me wonder if all this I'm hearing is true.”

No one is forcing you to believe it. If you think its trash, then trash it. What is this quest that you are on? I feel that there is more here than disbelief . . . .

“It may be, but I REALLY NEED TO KNOW what they believe, and what they think is happening to them.

Why do you NEED to know? Who are you to decide if they are true or not. You have read the website. I believe it is true. Take that and believe it, or call them nuts and go on.

“So are we now to cast away the Scriptures just because some Rabbi’s say they believe in Jesus? How do you know that this isn’t a Trick of the Devil, to deceive the people when the 144,000 Jews do arrive on the Scene? Won’t God bring this event about by His Word? Or are we now to accept what some Rabbi’s say, and ignore the Word itself?”

I really don’t get this. Who is casting away Scriptures? I don’t understand how converted rabbis casts away scriptures. I really don’t understand that. Can you explain it, please? I have thought long and hard about the statement and I just can’t figure out what you are saying.

Let me know so I can respond -- if you wish to continue this discussion.
Bob
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4/2/98
Greeting Brethren,
Bob,
Sorry to take so long to respond back but I’ve had a lot going on. Let me see if I can perhaps clear up some of the questions you asked.

“So are we now to cast away the Scriptures just because some Rabbi’s say they believe in Jesus? How do you know that this isn’t a Trick of the Devil, to deceive the people when the 144,000 Jews do arrive on the Scene? Won’t God bring this event about by His Word? Or are we now to accept what some Rabbi’s say, and ignore the Word itself?”

I really don’t get this. Who is casting away Scriptures? I don’t understand how converted rabbis casts away scriptures. I really don’t understand that. Can you explain it, please?

You misunderstood what I was saying. I did not say the Rabbi’s were casting away the Scriptures, I said should “we” cast away the scriptures just because some Rabbi’s are believing in Jesus. The point is, Im trying to find out what these Rabbi’s believe is going on amongst them, can they Identify themselves in the Scriptures. Is this a Scriptural Event, or as John the Baptist said, “should we look for another” referring as to whether Jesus was the Messiah or not (Matt 11:2-6).

And so what I’m trying to say are these the start of the 144,000 or should we be looking for them to come? If I could only find out what they believe and what is happening then I would know, even as John was told to look at what is going on so he would know. But so far in my pursuit of this question all I’ve been told is it doesn’t matter, either believe it or don’t believe it. I’ve been treated like I’m a KGB agent or something on the pursuit of some rebel Rabbi’s to string up because they believe in Jesus.

Here’s the point I’m trying to make, for you responded to my statement in this manner:

“Israel shall be Born in ONE DAY, and there shall rise up one from the East, which shall seal these 144,000 Jews with the Spirit of God. And that one is one of those Two End Time Prophets.”

You’re just plain makin’ this up . . . . it’s not in the Bible. “So this makes me wonder if all this I'm hearing is true.”

Brother I don’t just make things up when it comes to Scripture. Maybe a fishing trip but not the Word. The Scriptures speak of the Events to happen in Israel, so let me share some those Scriptures with you.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in ONE DAY? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Zech 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in ONE DAY.

Rev 7:2-4 And I saw another angel ascending from the EAST, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The “Israel” that shall be saved is the 144,000 out of the 12 Tribes listed. It’s not all the Israelis shall be saved as some believe. There won’t be one more added to that group nor one less. Only the Spiritual Seed of Israel is True Israel. A person needs to separate the state of Israel from the Seed of Israel that is in that Land. Political Israel the Nation from Spiritual Israel that is in that Nation. That Land belongs to the True Seed of Abraham. And that Seed is Christ. So only those in Christ inherit that Land. So it belongs to the Bride of Christ and the 144,000 Jews.

So what I was asking in order to see if this was a Scriptural Event or not was whether the Rabbi’s were believers in the Messiah but not yet converted, not yet born again, not yet Quickened by the Spirit of God into life. For the Gentiles will have to be raptured out and the Jewish Branch grafted in to produce that Fruit, then those Two Prophets will bring the Gospel to the 144,000. But I also pointed out, One of those two prophets, the one from the East, appears to deal primarily with these 144,000. So I also asked is he there yet. For he has the Seal of God, (Spirit of God) that will bring forth there conversion or baptism in the Holy Spirit.

If you will notice in acts it took someone with the Holy Spirit to give the Holy Spirit to others that didn’t have it. (Acts 8:14-17, 9:17, 19:2-7) Peter was also sent to Preach to the Gentiles that they may receive the Spirit of God and be Born again. (Acts 10:30-48) And these Two Prophets are sent to Seal the 144,000 into the Kingdom of God.

So in order for this event to be a Scriptural event there is one possibility that I can think of. Because I don’t think that we have entered into that phase yet where those 144,000 Jews are being Sealed by the Spirit of God by those two prophets. And that is that they are believers in the Messiah who is Jesus, but not Born Again, or to say received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, that Seal.

Now when asking whether they are believers but not Born Again yet you said:

“Believers but not Born Again?” This statement is obviously not traditional, historic and accepted Christian doctrine. All believers are born again. The end -- anything else is heresy.

What I said may not be “traditional, historic or accepted Christian doctrine”, but it is Scriptural. Perhaps the terms a “Believer” and being “Born Again” means something different with you than with me.

A believer in Christ repents of their sins and are justified because of this faith. The next step is Sanctification by the Spirit of God, where they start cleaning up their life as the Lord reveals to them what to do. The last step is being Born into the kingdom of God by the Holy Spirit, being Sealed. A person can be Justified by the Blood of Christ but not Sanctified and Born Again by the Spirit yet. And then Sanctified by the Spirit but not Born or Baptized or Sealed by the Spirit. Once a person is Sealed by the Spirit of God they are part of the Body of Christ, have been Quickened by the Spirit of God into Life.

A natural Type is the human child being conceived, and then growing within the womb, but they are not really Alive or Born yet just potentially they are. For that child in the womb does not have a spirit yet. They must come to that last phase where they come into the kingdom of man and breath the Breath of Life whereof they receive that spirit which gives them life. Then they are truly born.

So until a person makes it to that last phase, (which is by grace not by works) he has not been born into the Kingdom of God yet. Potentially he is when he believes unto justification, and then starts his journey of Sanctification, but they may turn back unto Egypt before they reach the Promised Land.

Even so the 12 Apostles were Believers (but Judas turned back), but were not Born Again until the Day of Pentecost. They were called by the Lord (justified), and they followed and walked with Him (sanctified), but was not Born Again or Converted until the Day the Spirit of God Breathed the Breath of Life into them and they were Sealed into the Kingdom of Christ.

So if you or anyone else knows of a Web site that perhaps some of these Rabbi’s are sending teachings “Anonymously of course” to them please let me know. I would like to see what they believe and are teaching. And I promise I won’t inform the KGB, CIA, BBC,or NBC, unless of course you think I’m a double agent. (:{0>

One last thing, you asked me this question:

What is this quest that you are on? I feel that there is more here than disbelief . . . . “It may be, but I REALLY NEED TO KNOW what they believe, and what they think is happening to them. Why do you NEED to know?

Your right it is more than just curiosity, it means much more than that to me. This is something I’ve been waiting on and the Spirit of God has been preparing me for. If you go to my web site you will see that all my pages pertain to the 144,000 and the End Times. So yes it’s quite exciting to me, but I must know if it’s them or not according to the Word. I think it is, but I am not sure until Im able to have these questions answered. For a Scriptural event is of course in Scripture.

Paul
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3/29/98
Greetings Brethren,

Skinner reposted the site were the information was pertaining to her encounter with the Rabbi. So I went back and looked at it. Below is what she said pertaining to the notes he gave her.

Barbara has included the information from the rabbi's notes in her book, Jewish Insights Into the New Testament. A copy can be obtained for $8.00 by contacting her:

So I am indeed SORRY that I questioned her integrity about Selling that information. And I am also Sorry I questioned the integrity of those Rabbi’s, as I was under the impression that they told her to make some money off of the Revelations that the Holy Spirit gave to them.

As I said I could see a person Selling Christian doctrine if they had it in book or tape form. As I know one must pay to get the information in that format. And she is selling this information that the Rabbi gave her in a book.

I should have gotten the URL first and went and looked, before I opened my mouth and Accused them of something. I know better than that but I was trusting my memory and it failed me. So please forgive me as I meant no malice, but was speaking my heart on what I thought was said and done.

Paul
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By IsaiahMan
(04/03/98)
Paul
Thanks for responding. You said previously (and requoted yourself):

Israel shall be Born in ONE DAY, and there shall rise up one from the East, which shall seal these 144,000 Jews with the Spirit of God. ****And that one is one of those Two End Time Prophets.*****

I responded: You’re just plain makin’ this up . . . . it’s not in the Bible.

You quoted three scriptures to justify your thoughts. You may be right (I doubt it). But you cannot use those scriptures to say what you said. Of course, Israel will be born in a day. But, you have tied together this thing about one of the two witnesses being the agent that brings this about.

The scriptures that you quoted did not say that. I hold my ground. You are inserting this on your own. . . . you’re just plain makin’ it up.

I do understand a little more clearly why you want to know who these people are. I simply do not know how to classify them. I do not believe that the 144k will be the only saved individuals in Israel. From what I know, that would mean that some people in Israel would have to lose their salvation. I know there are more than 144k Christians there now . . . . I think the 144k are different, especially since they are called “virgins.” Maybe I will say more about that later. . .

Bob
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Greetings Brethren,

Bob you made this comment:
You quoted three scriptures to justify your thoughts. You may be right (I doubt it). But you cannot use those scriptures to say what you said. Of course, Israel will be born in a day. But, you have tied together this thing about one of the two witnesses being the agent that brings this about. The scriptures that you quoted did not say that. I hold my ground. You are inserting this on your own. . . . you're just plain makin' it up.

I don’t understand how you can say that. I quoted the scriptures and they speak for themselves. It positively identifies one of those two prophets rising up from the East, that will seal the 144,000 Jews.

Let me quote it again.

Rev 7:2-4 And I saw another > “Angel” < ascending from the > “EAST” <, having the > “Seal”< of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till > “WE”< have Sealed the Servants of our God in their Foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an > “hundred and forty and four thousand”(144,000) < of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

If the “Angel” part is throwing you, that word “angel” refers to “Messengers”. There can be human or Angelic angels who are Messengers. Angelic beings from heaven that are not human do not preach the Gospel to humans. They are Messengers that are sent to human Messengers (angels) that tell other humans the Message God has brought by the hand of the Angelic Angel. Thats why Paul said beware if one of the Angelic Angels preaches a different Gospel than has Already been preached.

Joseph Smith should have heeded that when that Angel preached a different gospel to him. Now we have the Mormon church based on that New gospel.

A good example is the Angel that showed John the Revelation of Jesus Christ in Revelations was actually a human Prophet but John thought he was God or The Angel of the Lord. (Rev. 22:6-9; Acts 5:19,20; 7: 35-38,52,53, 8:26, 10:1-6, 27:23; Gal 3:19; Heb 1:13,14, 2:1,2; Rev 1:1,20, 21:17)

While we are on this subject of Angels let me give you another verse that is referring to those Two End Time Prophets.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his > “Angels”< with a great sound of a > “trumpet”<, and they shall gather together his > “Elect”< from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These Angels or Messengers are sent with a Great Sound of ONE Trumpet. They are not Angelic Angels but human angels. These Two Messengers are proclaiming the SAME Gospel Trumpet. I say two because the Scriptures only proclaim that there will be Two Witnesses or Messengers who are prophets that shall Prophecy during the Tribulation. And the ELECT that are gathered are those 144,000 Jews. These two are also the ones that is causing the Tribulation, like Elijah stopping the rain for 3 1/2 years and Moses turning the water into blood, and the people will hate them because of this. Even as they hated Elijah and Moses. (Rev.11:3-13)

Now about these 144,000 you said:

I do not believe that the 144k will be the only saved individuals in Israel. From what I know, that would mean that some people in Israel would have to lose their salvation. I know there are more than 144k Christians there now.

You are right, the 144,000 are not the only ones saved in Israel or worldwide. For there shall be a Great Multitude saved out of all the Nations, (the Remnant or Trib. Saints) and of course Israel is a nation. If you’ll notice it first speaks of these 144,000 then of the rest of the Believers that shall be saved. So in the End Time you will have Three Groups. The 144,000; Trib. saints out of all the nations; and those who follow and believe the Beast. (Rev 7:9-17)

But these 144,000 are God’s Firstfruits, of the Israelites. They are the fruit of that Jewish Branch being Grafted back in. They are virgins that have not been defiled by (believing) what the women (Churches) preach by their man made doctrines and creeds. They are Pure Virgins of the Word of God. And shall Stand with and by the King of Kings on Mount Sion, and they go where ever He goes. They are Warriors of the King. And I think that is what your seeing when you read their teachings. Purity of the Word. (Rev 14:15)

Paul
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By IsaiahMan
(04/04/98)

This is not Christian doctrine. I know of no Theologian in history that would call the four "reapers" men. The same applies to the four angels in Revelation 7. These are agents of Heaven in EVERY commentary that is respected by any individual. Where did you get this new doctrine?
Bob
============

Greetings Brethren,

Bob,
You misunderstood me. For you said:

This is not Christian doctrine. I know of no Theologian in history that would call the four "reapers" men. The same applies to the four angels in Revelation 7. These are agents of Heaven in EVERY commentary that is respected by any individual.Where did you get this new doctrine?

I didn’t say that “every time” that the Scriptures refer to Angels that they are men. What I was pointing out was that the Scriptures use the word “Angel” in reference to both Angelic heavenly Angels, and human angels which are ministers or messengers of the Gospel. Check out those Scriptures I gave and you will see what I mean.

I don’t know about having any New doctrine, maybe to some it may be, but its written for all to read and study. Its been there all the time.

Who taught me these things? The Holy Spirit. He revealed to me how to approach the Scriptures years ago. And that is were most fail. They try to read the Scriptures as they would any other book. And you just can’t do that. At one time I tried to use my own intellect to somehow understand the Word, and this will not work. The human mind cannot figure out the Scriptures, for the Word is hidden to the intellect of man. That is why there is so many differing interpretations to this One Bible that we use. A person can almost find Scriptures to back up any sort of doctrine. But for a doctrine to be correct ALL the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelations MUST be able to fit into the picture of that doctrine in order for it to be correct. And the human mind is incapable of doing that. It must be REVEALED by the Spirit of God.

So here is the Approach when studying the Word. Are you ready? This may sound strange?

Don’t try to understand or figure out the Word. Don’t study the Word as you would a school book. If you find yourself struggling to figure out something, STOP, let it go. You will not be able to grasp or understand a subject correctly if you continue. If you do you will come up with the wrong interpretation. Your natural mind is carnal, the Word of God is Spiritual. It takes the Spirit of God to REVEAL the Word to you in order for you to understand a subject. So when you go to study, look to the Spirit of God, not your intellect, and just RELAX and enjoy the Scriptures. You can’t force Him to Reveal anything, and you can’t figure it out, so just read, meditate, and Let Him show you what He wants you to know. If it is a Revelation of the Lord you will be able to See it from Genesis to Revelation using the Scriptures and Types. For the Scriptures were Written by ONE PERSON. And He only knows the hidden wisdom within. (1Cor 2:11-14; Rom 8:5-9; Matt 11:25-27, 16:13-18; Eph 3:5; Lk 24:44,45)

Paul
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By IsaiahMan
(04/04/98)
Paul,
I didn't misunderstand anything. Your statement was plain and clear. You said:

While we are on this subject of Angels let me give you another verse that is referring to those Two End Time Prophets. Matt 24:31 And he shall send his > Angels < with a great sound of a > trumpet <, and they shall gather together his > Elect < from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

me:
You are clearly stating that the two end-time witnesses (revelation DOES NOT call them prophets -- prophetais -- in the Greek) will be the "angels" that gather together his elect from the four winds. That is clear. I did not misunderstand ANYTHING. I disagreed with you. I did not misunderstand you.

Furthermore, in your response you stated the "method" by which you use to "infalliblly" interpret the scriptures.You relax, read with a meditative mind, and let spirits guide you to truth. Paul, how do you know that the spirit guides that you except as your teachers are in fact from God? All I know is that those spirit guides are telling you things that they ani't never told nobody before. Seems quite strange to me.

Bob

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Greetings Brethren,

Bob,
Do you have a problem with reading? Understanding English? I hope so, as that would be about the only way you could redeem yourself from your apparent disrespect of the Word of God. I have given you the benefit of the doubt in answering your questions, as your responses have seemed as through you don’t quite understand what I’m saying. But it is quite apparent now that you simple Refuse to accept the Scriptures and would rather Blaspheme the Spirit of God instead walking in the Light.

Before ALL you have revealed your true nature by your very dealings with me in this topic. Don’t you realize that the people can read these posts and see what your doing? How can you call yourself a Christian and act the way you are? Aren’t you Embarrassed just a little?

For have you not accused me of “making things up” in the Scriptures? Which is in effect Adding to the Word of God, and Of which is a very serious matter before God. When anyone can read what I said and plainly see I have made nothing up.

But nevertheless I humbled myself and responded in hopes that you were really wanting to discuss this issue as YOU ASKED ME TO DO. So I pointed out in the Scriptures more plainly that which you said I made up. Once again, you refused to accept the Word of God, and accused me again of making things up. So I elaborated on the subject trying to perhaps clear up once again what I was saying, all the wile hoping that we could discuss this topic as Christian Men.

I believe your main problem is you lean to the flesh of men and not to the Word of God. For every time you responded saying I was making things up you was resting in what some so-called Theologians and their Commentaries had to say about the subject instead of the Word of God itself. Did not the Pharisees and Sadducees do the same when arguing with The Word Himself? And being you could not prove me wrong you lowered yourself to perverting what I said and tried to label me as a cult. Did they not do the same to Jesus?

When you did try to use the Word this last time you failed to Search the Scriptures, and now I must once again Prove By The Word I’m not making anything up. For you said:

You are clearly stating that the two end-time witnesses (revelation DOES NOT call them prophets -- prophetais -- in the Greek)

But the Word says THEY ARE PROPHETS, so am I still making things up?

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these > TWO PROPHETS < tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

[4396 prophetes (prof-ay'-tace); from a compound of 4253 and 5346; a foreteller ("prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet: KJV-- prophet.]

Your last statement is to me out right Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. For Did not you put Him in the same category as familiar spirits? Here is what you said. I placed the < > marks in to point this out better.

Furthermore, in your response you stated the "method" by which you use to "infalliblly" interpret the scriptures.You relax, read with a meditative mind, and let > spirits guide < you to truth. Paul, how do you know that the > spirit guides < that you except as your teachers are in fact from God? All I know is that > those spirit guides < are telling you things that they ani't never told nobody before. Seems quite strange to me.

Here is what I said below, I will not repost it all, but the area your referring to, ANYBODY can read the whole post themselves and see that you in your attempt to prove me wrong for some reason have out right lied and have even referred to the HOLY SPIRIT as a “spirit quide” and that is a “familer spirit” an “evil spirit”.

Don’t you realize the Severity of what your doing? I forgive you for what you have done to me. But the Holy Spirit Himself will deal with you about referring to Him in this manner.

It takes the Spirit of God to REVEAL the Word to you in order for you to understand a subject. So when you go to study, look to the Spirit of God, not your intellect, and just RELAX and enjoy the Scriptures. You can’t force Him to Reveal anything, and you can’t figure it out, so just read, meditate, and Let Him show you what He wants you to know.

Paul
============

By Andy
(04/04/98)

Sounds like "New Age" methods to me...

To God be the glory!
Andy
============

Greetings Brethren,

Andy,
Are you sure you want to drink of the same cup as Bob by siding with him? For you said:

Sounds like "New Age" methods to me...

Are you not attempting to also kill my influence by classifying me as a “new age” teacher? And if by siding with him your classifying the Revealing Grace of the Holy Spirit as “new age methods”?

All this is being done so that perhaps by doing this it would somehow make void what I say? And then people might not pay any heed to what I say, even through I ALWAYS stay with the WORD of GOD when discussing a topic?

For I lean to the Spirit of God to REVEAL to me His Word.

Who’s side are you on? Jesus said if your not for ME, (and He is the WORD) your against ME.

Are you going to let your flesh and perhaps your anger towards me cause you to side against the Word? And to also speak of the Holy Spirit in this way?

Paul
============

By randall (---)
(04/05/98)
[... by the way, a little more tolerance in preceeding posts in this topic to date would not have gone astray, IMHO]

Just to clear this up for those who have wondered... We had a messaniac jew missionary from Jerusalem speak and sing at my christian Church in Sydney, Australia this morning about their Jerusalem setup. He heads up a Messaniac Jew educational seminary in Jerusalem called "the Messaniac Midrasha".

QUOTE
"The Messaniac Midrasha was established to serve those who believe in the God of Israel and his Messia Yeshua [ie. Jesus of course]. It provides studies in the Tenakh and the New Covenant within the framework of the people of Israel and its history, and the Land of Israel, in the Hebrew language. We believe that such education will assist messaniac congregations to flourish in Jerusalem, in the Land of Israel, and throughout the world, and to present the good news of Yeshua with a Jewish testimony within the Jewish community."

"The uniqueness of the Messaniac Midrasha is that it is the result of a local initiative by Jewish believers in Yeshua. The Messaniac Midrasha is not connected to any mission organisation, and does not represent any (Gentile) Christian body. The Midrasha gives the messaniac community means with which to research and express our faith in a framework that stems from Jewish sources.. It inhibits attempts to introduce sectarian ideas from (Gentile) Christian churches."


UNQUOTE

Naturally they have few funds. If you or your church would like to help regraft the Jews onto the Olive Tree (Romans 11), pray for them, invite/sponsor them to visit you, or to accept their invitation to visit them and worship with them if you are in Jerusalem, the contact details are:

The Messaniac Midrasha in Israel,
PO Box 7931, Jerusalem 91079, Israel.
Phone (972-2-) 623-1019 Fax (972-2-) 624-9258

If you register with them, they will send you a prayer newsletter three or four times a year.

yours in Christ,

Randall
============

By randall (---)
(04/05/98)
Hi Paul,
First, do not be discouraged to participate by some of the acerbic comments that come your way. Whether the theology is right or wrong, I support the discussion being in the framework of a respectful dialogue.

I will comment that the messianic jew missionary from the Jerusalem "Messianic Midrasha" Jewish seminary (see "Do Messianic Jews Exist? - absolutely") who preached at our church today ennumerated some important points. Amongst these (to paraphrase):

"God has different messages in the Word for Jews, for Messianic Jews, for unbelieving Gentiles, for believing Gentiles, for men, for women etc. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE DON'T READ EACH OTHERS MAIL...." Yes, one Spirit. But particular messages for different audiences.

(keen for you to get back to the Laodiceans when you have finished here..... thanks for your acknowledgement)

yours in Christ,
Randall.
========================

MY LAST COMMENTS

(This was the last in the series of posts on this forum. I was banned from posting anymore by the moderator of this forum after this debate who just happens to be Andy. You decide, did I do anything that would justify this type of action towards me?

I feel that the comments I made through the month of being on this forum caused issues of doctrine to be dealt with that could not be ignored or put aside as false. But instead caused a separation between those who truly follow the Word and those who follow a man made concept of the Word as preached in most denominations.

The final result was to cast out the one that was preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ as they would not repent of their false doctrines.

If a person searches the Scriptures they will see that this happens every time to those who Preach the True Gospel of Jesus Christ.)

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Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night? The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will Enquire, enquire ye: return, come.  Isa 21:11,12 

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