Log Societal Group: First meeting Jan 25, 1997

Anne's comments preceeded by ) without nickname

Session Start: Sat Jan 25 17:50:24 1997
*** Now talking in #societal
*** shadrak sets mode: +o anne
[shadrak SOUND]
(shadrak) anne did you see my note about 
   the MSIE problem with the ON|OFF 
   switch?  Have you tried it?
(Tina) I have
) yes, it did not look bad in MSIE, just 
  no on and off switch
(Tina) I heard the music on msie but got 
   a message saying it couldn't play the 
   midid
) i think you could add only in NS 
(Tina) I saw the on off switch in mise
) but it did play for me in MSIE
(shadrak) so did I
) tina, do you have win95?
(Tina) Yes I do
(shadrak) But the ON|OFF switch is 
   confusing
) and i have win 3.11 so maybe that is 
  the difference
(Tina) could be
) but there was no problem when you did 
  not have the on/off switch to hear 
  music in MSIE?

(shadrak) What suggestions do y'all have 
   for coordinating changes to the page. 
    I'm against limiting who has access. 
    would rather set a "schedule".
) that is a good idea shadrak with a 
  schedule if you think folks will 
  remember when it is their turn
(Tina) a schedule is ok
) and people can post the immediate url 
  even if it is on the site that folks 
  can use before it is even linked
(shadrak) Probably won't remember.  If 
   we all had IRQ running we could check 
   with one another.
) ooooh, wish i had it
(Tina) irq?
) but at least send an email when you 
  are editing
) on tina, you will love it
(Tina) why what is it
) shad, you exlain
(shadrak) It's sort of an always active 
   connection with one another.  Tells 
   you when others are on-line, enables 
   you to chat or send messages, etc.
*** flamingo (flamingo@ad13-101.compuserv
e.com) has joined #societal
*** shadrak sets mode: +o flamingo
(shadrak) hi flamingo
) hi flamingo
(shadrak) It's ICQ, not IRQ
(flamingo) Hi gang
(Tina) hi flamingo
) flamingo, can you give tina link to 
  get icq
(flamingo) yes, brb
) i am still working on organizing the 
  bookmarks for the group
(flamingo) http://www.mirabilis.com/downl
   oad.html 

(shadrak) Question about the idea of 
   "next" links on each page.  Is this 
   within a given subject area or links 
   from subject to subject that is being 
   proposed?
) i know i kind of like to see all the 
  topics at once to pick from a menu
(Tina) yes
(flamingo) I'm flexible
(Tina) well ok shadrak, the next in the 
   ring goes from topic to topic
(Tina) like if I did one topic the next 
   would to to anne who was doing 
   something else
(shadrak) But would there also be a menu 
   so I don't have to go via the ring?
) i know in those web page rings, you do 
  not really know what is coming next
*** sk (sk@shk.cts.com) has joined 
#societal
(Tina) no you don't 
) hi stephanie
(Tina) yes there would be 
) great you made it
(Tina) hi stephanie
(flamingo) Hi stephanie
(sk) hi there - sorry I'm late
(shadrak) 4 HELLO STEPHANIE 
(sk) what's going on
-) [sk] VERSION
(shadrak) Just got an ICQ message from 
   goofy..sal is still running late; he 
   is setting up her computer.
) tina is explaining link from ring 
  concept
*** shadrak sets mode: +o sk
(Tina) you'd have the next and previous 
   buttons (graphic)
(shadrak) here she comes
*** ingo (a066@dialup2.lambton.on.ca) 
has joined #societal
(Tina) it's easier to draw than explain 
   in words LOL
) hey ingo hi
(shadrak) Hi INGO
(ingo) hallo, this is ingo
(sk) I just learned about the ring 
   concept from tina's page. I could use 
   more info too.
*** shadrak sets mode: +o ingo
(Tina) you'd also have it in word format 
   with example, [prev] [link] [all 
   topics]
) i have seen it before and i like the 
  concept as long as we have a menu to 
  which tina said we sould
(Tina) something like that
(Tina) I propose on the header page... 
   the ones they would go to first, 
   having a menu of all tpics
(Tina) with links to all pages
(sk) this sounds good
(sk) then all of the pages would link to 
   each other, right?
(Tina) yes
(sk) have we settled on topics yet
(Tina) no we haven't discussed it yet
(shadrak) What happens when I have a 
   link from my page to an "off group" 
   page?
(Tina) ummm I don't know what you mean
) oh no, here comes the frames idea shad
) folks would just need to hit their 
  back button on the browser to get back 
  to our pages
(shadrak) How does the user get back to 
   me after he visits a site I have 
   linked to?
(Tina) well we're all going to have 
   links to other pages probably... they 
   wouldn't be part of the ring
(Tina) the ring is our class
(sk) it wouldn't make any difference to 
   "our ring" concept would it? I mean 
   everyone can still go to other links
) right
(Tina) well they would have to hit the 
   back button
(sk) yeah
(Tina) I mean on my page now if you go 
   to a link on my page to get back to 
   my page you'd have to hit the back 
   button
) if they are following the information 
  links in an article they will
) right i had to do that tina
(sk) it seemed to work ok when i looked 
   at ring pages
(Tina) unless you want to ask the person 
   who you linked to to link back to 
   your page LOL
(ingo) I have to leave for a few 
   minutes, hopefully I can join you a 
   bit later
(ingo) bye
(shadrak) Actually you can bring up 
   foreign links in a separate browser 
   window, so the user closes it when he 
   is done and is back to you.  But many 
   users get confused by this.
) ingo quick ?
(Tina) ahh bye ingo

) wha kind or topics are you interested 
  in
*** ingo (a066@dialup2.lambton.on.ca) 
has left #societal
) send email if you do not get back
(Tina) hmm that might be something to 
   think about though for javascript
) oh i agree shadrak, that is too 
  confusing for a different window
(sk) javascript might be able to do it. 
   do any of you know javascript to any 
   extent?
(Tina) hmmm yes lets discuss topics
) i do not know how to do javascript
(shadrak) ok
(Tina) not really, though I have over 
   the past week going through a book on 
   javascript
(sk) I've got a book too, but am just 
   beginning...
(Tina) the t hing about javascript 
   though, is lots of people have 
   written them and have them available 
   for download
) anyway, so we have more design freedom 
  for right now i would like to try no 
  frames
*** Liz (~locuse@customs414.ipass.net) 
has joined #societal
(sk) yes, lots of useful stuff has 
   already been done
) hi Liz, great your figured our irc ;)
(sk) hi li
(flamingo) Hi Liz
(shadrak) Hey Liz you made it!
(Tina) anne, well on the page I do I 
   think I might do it in frames.. I 
   don't like them but I would like to 
   learn how to do them
(Tina) hi liz
-) [Liz] VERSION
) that is true, everyone should get to 
  try what they want to learn
(Tina) that is why this is good about 
   doing sep pages and linking them
(Liz) Hello everyone!
(Tina) we can do various styles
*** shadrak sets mode: +o Liz

(sk) will the class instructors be 
   covering this kind of thing, frames, 
   javascript, etc. or are we on our own?
) they will send out some information, 
  but maybe not in a formal lesson
(shadrak) Looks like evryone except sal 
   and Fredrik are here so I'm gonna 
   shut down my server
(Tina) well I don't know sk, I hope they 
   do 
(flamingo) Frames are pretty easy after 
   you do them a few times
) and leapin is adding the resources for 
  all the topics to the class library 
(sk) another thing I would like to know 
   is - should I get a page on geocities 
   too, or use the free one provided on 
   my ISP - for this class I mean.
(shadrak) I think we can teach one 
   another everything but JAVA and how 
   to draw.
(shadrak) If your ISP is reliable use 
   it.  Geocities gets flaky at times.
) oh sk, we can send you info, geocities 
  has a homesteading page, then you look 
  at the neighborhoods, pick one and 
  follow info on how to sign up
(Tina) well if I'm the only one who's 
   going to do the topic I pick, then 
   I'll do it at my own site, but if 
   others also want to do the topic I 
   choose, I think I'll get a page at 
   geocities so we can share password 
   and stuff
(sk) Did all of you take the previous 
   www class at vu?
(Tina) no
(Tina) this is my first class
) geocities got 9 million in funding to 
  improve their stuff
(sk) wow
) i have taken several
(flamingo) sk, I did
(Liz) this is my first class
) you will have fun with it
) and meet so many great people
(Liz) Anne and Irwin, thanks for all of 
   your help getting me logged on
) i would pick you ISP free stuff sk to 
  start
(Liz) logged on
) you are welcome, i am glad it worked
(shadrak) Tina,  "joint ventures" don't 
   necessarily have to be at a single 
   site; there may be links between 
   "aspects" of the work.
) next thing, Liz, you need to turn on 
  your logging feature so you can go 
  back later and read
(sk) ok, I'll use my ISP - one question 
   answered!
) go to File/Options and click on the 
  logging tab
(shadrak) Who is logging this session?
(Tina) I am
(flamingo) I started logging a bit late
) then there are two boxes to check to 
  enable logging for channels and 
  private chats, click on those
) i also have the logging on
(Tina) I have been since I joined
(shadrak) good..you've been here from 
   the start.
) and you guys were here before me
(sk) where is the logging thing on mirc 
   again?
) see the menu across the top of MIRC?
) click on File, then select options
(Liz) Thanks Anne, I just activated it
) you will see tabs with topics, one is 
  logging
) good
) you can pull it into wp as text only 
  to look at it and it will be in your 
  mirc directory
(sk) never mind - i just found it

(shadrak) Let's get back to basics.  
   What topics do each of us have an 
   interest in?  And are all of these 
   appropriate for the site?
(Tina) well I'm wondering what topics 
   would you use under societal 
   information?
) seems like it is pretty broad to me to 
  cover lots
(shadrak) I'm interested in government 
   information.  From Local to internatio
   nal.
) sounds good shadrak, then some of our 
  topics mite refer to your resources too
(shadrak) OK what other topics?  You had 
   a good one Anne.
(Tina) are you all just sticking with 
   american sources?
(Liz) I am interested in Educational 
   ifnormation
(shadrak) no
) i saw the the schools were also linked 
  in that Pgh project with community 
  center also
(flamingo) I'm interested in Education 
   or Society's Problems
) oh we should braoden it
(sk) medical for me
) stephanie i have a bunch of medical 
  info if yuou need it
(sk) ok, what kind of stuff?
) i loaded my bookmarks, but lots of 
  specific stuff for support groups for 
  illnesses, search stuff, and who know 
  what else
(sk) i have some good ones, like a site 
   for free access to Medline and a 
   couple of really good cancer support 
   group sites
) i would like to figure what else to 
  tie in the Internet connection project 
  as i think there is grant money for 
  lots of cities to do similar things
(Tina) I guess I'm interested in 
   soceity's problems
) tina, i am also
(sk) what's the internet connection 
   project?
(sk) society has lots of problems...
) it links folks to the internet for 
  information, but includes agencies 
  that have lots of health info, support 
  for families and children and is an 
  inner city area
(shadrak) Three for societies problems, 
   one for education, one for government,
    and Chris wants misinformation.  Any 
   more topics?
(Tina) what about seniors information
) ingo i wonder if wants to do something 
  with employment too
) i have a few good links for seniors too
(Tina) I think seniors information and 
   teen information would be good
(shadrak) I'm interested in that, but I 
   don't want to bite off more than I 
   can chew.
) someone is suggesting internet and 
  computers to keep the brain gray cells 
  working
) and parenting information, the list 
  goes on
(flamingo) I could do Teen Information...
    it ties into my work
(shadrak) Didn't someone besides Liz 
   express an interest in Education via 
   Email?  Was that Chris?
) i did shadrak cause i work in schools 
  too
(flamingo) So did I
) but as a social worker, not a teacher

(sk) yes, we could list hundreds of 
   topics - I guess we need to narrow it 
   - what's the list now: education, 
   problems, employment, medical info, 
   seniors, government, teens, ...?
*** ingo (a066@dialup1.lambton.on.ca) 
has joined #societal
) welcome back ingo
(sk) hi ingo
(ingo) Hi, I'm back
(flamingo) Hi ingo
) we were just discussing who is 
  interested in what topics
(shadrak) Ingo, what topic(s) interest 
   you?
*** anne sets mode: +o ingo
-) [ingo] VERSION
(Tina) yes, we do need to narrow it down
(ingo) I guess from my background I am 
   interested in topics relating to 
   education as well as to employment / 
   labour topics
) i wonder if there is an area that is 
  not as well covered on the internet we 
  could do
(ingo) such as?
(sk) I think employment/labor topics are 
   important
) i really do not know, but want 
  something that is not totally 
  overworked
(Tina) I agree anne
(Tina) and remember, there are other 
   study groups out there.. we could end 
   up doing some of the same stuff
) that really doesn't matter
(flamingo) Why don't we each pick a 
   different topic and those will be the 
   only topics covered. 
) one group is actually creating a space 
  webpage group for an organization that 
  will be used
(flamingo) Then each person will be 
   comfortable with what they have to do.
(shadrak) I think that would be too many 
   flamingo.
(flamingo) Why
) each area is like a whole research 
  paper to be thorough
(shadrak) That would be 9 or more topics
(flamingo) I don't see that as being a 
   problem
(ingo) would small group, ie two or 
   three be a better choice?
(Tina) all of the topics we've discussed 
   so far could be an entire topic on 
   it's own for a whole team to do
(flamingo) Yes
) shadrak, did sal ever say what she was 
  interested in?
*** sk has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
(shadrak) The topics we are discussing 
   are themselves broad enough that I 
   don't think one person can do them 
   justice, especially during the time 
   of this course.
(shadrak) Haven't seen anything from 
   sal, anne.
) k
) hope sk can get back on, forgot to 
  tell her about pingout and rejoining

(Tina) something I'd like to do is one 
   for women... resources for battered 
   women, rape help, pregnancy help, 
   abortion info, etc.
) shadrak, are you also talking about 
  government and how it can help solve 
  problems too?
(shadrak) dunno
) i probably have some stuff in my 
  social work links for that too tina
(Tina) ok anne
(Tina) how many of us ar ein the group
) i will look thru as their are National 
  organizations that point to lots of 
  help stuff
) i think there are 10 now
(Tina) 10

(Tina) how about picking 5 topics that 
   fit under societal infrmation and 
   have 2 people work on each
*** sk (sk@shk.cts.com) has joined 
#societal
) welcome back sk
-) [sk] PING
(Tina) re sk
(ingo) welcome back sk
(sk) sorry, something wierd happened - 
   this is my first IRC attempt
) it would help if we knew sal too
) that is common sk,
(Tina) sk, don't worry it happens all 
   the time :) it comes with ircing ;)
) you just have to reconnect, you lag 
  time got too big
(sk) oh, good, then it wasn't just me :)
) lol you are a fast learner
(ingo) two people per group sounds good 
   to me
) i agree ingo
(sk) fill me in on what i missed
(shadrak) Tina, I think we can not 
   "assign" topics.  Let's pick topics 
   that at least two people are 
   interested in.
(Liz) 2 per group sounds good
) and if someone gets real indusustriuous
  , they can fill in the blanks with 
  another article
(Tina) well the topics have to at least 
   fit under societal information, don't 
   they?
) here is copy and paste from the screen 
  that Tina is interested in sk that you 
  missed
) (Tina) something I'd like to do is one 
  for women... resources for battered 
  women, rape help, pregnancy help, 
  abortion info, etc.
(shadrak) I believe we have several for 
   education, and society's problems 
   (subset women's problems), and two 
   for medical thus far.
) i like ideas of teams and groups 
  working to solve problems or build on 
  people's strengths to solve
(shadrak) maybe sal's finally here
) she did not stay long ;(
) but at least is closer
*** sal (~xxxx@anxp5.ob.centuryinter.net)
 has joined #societal
*** shadrak sets mode: +o sal
) hi sal
(sal) hi, folks...just got in...
*** Tina sets mode: +o sk
(ingo) hi sal
(flamingo) Hi sal
(sal) larry had me connected and ready 
   to roll...
) we were just going over topics and 
  deciding if we could find areas that 
  two people would like to cover
* shadrak says try again sal
(sal) oh...good...
(sal) shad, my sound isn't configured 
   yet, i bet...
(sal) !shadrak new-sal.wav
(shadrak) got a data error is all I knows
) sal, one of us can email it to you
(sal) as ususal, you wrote what i was 
   going to ask...
(sal) thanks...
) welcome ;)
(sal) that  will save time...
(sal) usual..

(shadrak) sal, what topics are you 
   interested in?
(sal) whew...i'm really interested in 
   consumer info...
(sal) y'all haven't mentioned that in 
   the email, to my knowledge...
(sk) consumer info - this is a good 
   topic too
(sal) but i think that it really fits 
   in...
(shadrak) like what?  Sounds like 
   government could be a suset.
) it does sal
(shadrak) subset
(flamingo) great topic sal
(sal) well, pueblo col. could be a 
   subheading...
(sal) but there are loads of sites 
   providing similar content to what 
   consumer reports offers
) oh good, i would like to see your 
  collection too sal
(sal) unfortunately, consumers union 
   isn't on the net...
(sal) just on aol or somthing similar
) maybe they will be before class is over
(sal) ok, anne...will try to remember...
) and we still need to find out about 
  fredrik and what he is interested in
(Tina) this societal information is 
   stillt  hrowing me
(sal) would like to have info included 
   in there about fraud, etc., too...
(Tina) I know the course says to pick 
   one topic to cover
) sweden will be interesting to compare 
  and contrast

(Tina) and with societal information it 
   seems like we're cover 5 or 6 
   different tpics
) and we have lots more than one topic
(sal) hahaha...think about me, tina...i'v
   e been lost from day 1, and puter 
   probs have only made it pandemonium
(sal) don't you see societal information 
   as the topic?
(sal) that's the way i see it
(flamingo) Tina has a very good point
(sk) I'm with you, tina - we still have 
   too many topics and they keep growing 
   :) - I think societal information 
   covers A LOT of ground
) i know it is one topic sal, but what 
  is all really under it
(sal) hahaha...anything that concerns 
   society...which is everything
(Tina) well isn't that too broad for th 
   is course
) technological changes affecting the 
  concept of societal information
(ingo) yea, all the 'sub topics' could 
   be part of the final product, 
   societal info
(sk) as an indexer, i know that topics 
   want to keep sub-setting themselves 
   until you drown - we have to be 
   ruthless and prune our topics 
   severely (this is said tongue-in-cheek
    of course)
) oh sk, good that you are an indexer
(shadrak) Tina, don't worry too much 
   about what the course leaders have 
   said.  The topic is intended to be 
   information of value to various 
   elements of society.  Within that 
   there are hosts of sub-topics.  We 
   are trying to pick and choose based 
   on our own interests.  I don't see a 
   problem other than focussing on what 
   the list should be.
(sk) I see four topics so far: government
   , medicine, education, violence
) shadrak, we could really put what your 
  sentence above is in our intro
(shadrak) 4 DO IT ANNE 
) oh shad, chris was interested in 
  health care too, unless you made that 
  up
) never suggest something ;)
(shadrak) I'm pretty sure she was 
   interested in Health care and/or 
   education

(sal) ok...why not a different approach..
   .areas that concern society...
(sk) government, education, health care, 
   crime
) ingo, when you posted your interest in 
  the group, you said something about 
  barriers and employment
) we were not sure what you meant
(ingo) yes, we are looking at why people 
   cannot find jobs, 
(ingo) besides physical barriers there 
   are lack of education, social 
   disabilites etc
) and that is definite society info or 
  areas that concern society
(sal) and rather than have topics under 
   govt, ed, medicine, and violence, 
   have it under, for example, social 
   problems and remediations for 
   medicine, 
(sal) violence, etc
(sal) then other broad topics to 
   encompass the others...
(sk) this would be one way to approach it
(shadrak) I'm not sure all the topics 
   will fit that paradigm sal.
(sal) ok...i'm at a disadvantage, 
   because i don't have the topics...
(sk) none of us has the topics yet
(sal) oh
(sal) hmmm
(shadrak) Don't forget, we are not out 
   to solve the problems, but rather to 
   find sites that purport to do so.
(sal) what i'm getting at is that since 
   this is societal info site, we might 
   need to look at some sociological 
   groupings...
(sal) right...

) flamingo, want to see some of your 
  ideas for presentation before we go to 
  if you have anything to show too
-) [anne] PING
(flamingo) I would if my web site wasn't 
   down for the last two days
) ooooh too bad
(shadrak) sal see "A Sociological Tour 
   Throug Cyberspace"
(shadrak) The WWW site is http://www.trin
   ity.edu/~mkearl/index.html
(sal) brb
(sal) oh...shad, i saw that...
) you can also turn on a url catcher in 
  mirc
(sal) from that newsletter...
(shadrak) It covers everything.
) then you can go to a url directly from 
  here into your browser
(sal) it really is comprehensive
) oh i will look at it as it may pull a 
  theme together
) or pick out out something more 
  elaborate?

(flamingo) Why don't we narrow down our 
   topics under Societal Info to four? 
   Then go from there.
(sk) sounds good to me
(ingo) ok, with me
(sal) sure...
(shadrak) By the way, let's not choose a 
   group name without surfing the web 
   first.  "Infosources" is in heavy use.
(sal) oh, dear...didn't know that...
(flamingo) Maybe Education, Medical, 
   Government, Society's Problems
(shadrak) flmingo, your nickel...what 
   are the four you think of?
(sk) then we could think about these and 
   submit subsets via email?
(shadrak) sure sk
) oh i see the credit card mania
(flamingo) My four are listed above
(sk) those four sound like what we keep 
   coming back to so they are probably a 
   good place to start
(flamingo) What everyone has said can 
   fall under these topics
) k
(sal) i'm a lot happier with society's 
   problems than i am with violence as a 
   major topic
) me too sal
(sk) just trying to subset ahead of my 
   time:)
(ingo) sounds almost like education 
   medecine and government being 
   society's problems?
(sal) haha
(sal) aren't they?
(shadrak) Personally, I think Society's 
   Problems" is way too big, but if 
   y'all want it, it's OK with me.  May 
   I ask what it excludes? Education, 
   Medical, and Government are at least 
   partial subsets?
) and tina is interested in resources 
  for women battered women, info on 
  abortion
(flamingo) They fall under medical
(sal) it is big, shad, but we might look 
   at the group we are targeting...to 
   narrow it...
(sk) that's what I was trying to pare 
   down - society's problems is a BIG 
   area, but we can mine it for topics
(shadrak) I suggest we each pick one of 
   the four and define (via email) what 
   it is we have in mind.

(sal) are we targeting a specific group?
(Tina) remember, we have to have this 
   all finalized as to topics and fix 
   the page and send it into the 
   teachers next week
(sal) and if we don't, we flunk?
(flamingo) Let's decide now????
(Tina) no but we could fall behind
(Tina) they'll go onto the next lessona 
   nd we could still be trying to decide 
   what topics to pick
(flamingo) I agree Tina
) you know, we will still be refining 
  even after we send to teachers
(sk) let's decide on four BIG main 
   topics, submit subtopics via email, 
   and see what happens by some day like 
   Tuesday?
(Tina) I know
(flamingo) I still think that we should 
   decide and move on
(ingo) did I miss something, we are 
   talking about subgroups which have to 
   be put together under one umbrella
* anne is still scratching her head over 
  the topic but would like to go on too
) ingo, that is right i think

(shadrak) OK, I will define waht I have 
   in mind with Government and email it 
   out by Monday night.  Who's volunteeri
   ng for other topics/
(sk) I will do health care
(flamingo) I am interested in Education 
   or Society's Problems.... I don't 
   have time to do the email thing though
(ingo) I can work on education in a 
   broader sense
(shadrak) Under Medicine or Society's 
   Problems sk?
(Liz) I am interested in Education as 
   well
(sal) i'm interested in consumer-related 
   and social problems...
(shadrak) Liz and Ingo, why don't you 
   get together and see if you can come 
   up with a common definition?
(ingo) sounds good to me
(Liz) Count me in
(shadrak) can you write something up sal?
(sal) about the topics i'm interested in?
(shadrak) yep
(sal) sure...
(sk) I will write something about what I 
   think a medical "societal information 
   page" should include
(shadrak) Tina, are you interested in 
   trying to describe what is meant by 
   Society's Problems?
(sk) poor tina
(Tina) I think that's too big
) i agree tina
(Tina) I don't know what to do 
(Tina) I'm more confused than when we 
   started
(sk) me too
(flamingo) me too

(sal) y'all, do we have any idea of who 
   our target audience is?
(sal) that would help narrow topics 
   tremendously
) true sal
(sk) we don't even know what we're 
   trying to say yet
(Tina) well the target audience is gonna 
   be different with every topic
(flamingo) Yes tina
) chris in the introduction talked about 
  reaching people who might not get info 
  thru normal methods
(sk) the trouble with "societal 
   information" is that EVERYTHING can 
   be defined this way
(sal) what i'm saying is that if we 
   narrow by some criterion, we can pare 
   some of the stuff...
) but that was in response to my saying 
  folks asked computers
(ingo) but will they access this kind of 
   info if they cannot get it any other 
   way
) and we do want to have time to learn 
  the stuff on making the web pages too
(sal) ok...
(sk) yeah, learning the web stuff
) that is what i do not know ingo
(ingo) shouldn't we target an audience 
   that will 'use and spread' for no 
   better term tis info

(flamingo) I may be the only one here... 
   but I somewhat frustrated. I feel 
   like we are spinning are wheels. 
(sk) me too 
(Tina) flamingo me too
(Liz) Let's not complicate things. For 
   the sake of the users
(shadrak) I have rather simple goals (10 
   Have fun (2) lear something [both 
   page making and what's on the web] 
   (3) produce something that MAY be of 
   value.  I think we're being too 
   serious.
(Liz) keep things simple.  If information
    is what they seek they
(flamingo) Yes shadrak
(Liz) want to access the page go 
   directly to what they want and
(sal) i agree shad...
(sal) this isn't a real mission...
(Liz) exit.  They shouldn't have to 
   figure out why we categorized
(sal) it might be something we want to 
   continue on...
(Liz) things in a certain way.
) well i would like to cover the 
  outreach programs to get folks 
  connected to info on the internet who 
  would not otherwise be able to  to 
  access it, 
(sal) but we can't solve all probs and 
   give all info in 8 weeks

(flamingo) Why don't we just pick 3 or 4 
   topics that fit under Societal Info 
   and then pick what we want to do???
(shadrak) I thought we had?
(flamingo) List topics shad ... please
(shadrak) I have EDUCATION Liz and Ingo
(ingo) ok
(sal) i like the topics that flamingo 
   listed earlier...
) this could point to the societal 
  information that we are going to cover 
  in topics
(sk) what were those again?
(shadrak) MEDICINE?HEALTH CARE Stephanie 
   and sal
) sal is not medicine shadrak
(shadrak) Government Irwin
(shadrak) SOCIETIES PAROBLEMS ???????????
   ??????
(shadrak) problems
(flamingo) Ok we have our 4 topics... 
   Does everyone agree???
(shadrak) any corrections?

) Internet addiction??
) a societal problems
(ingo) certainly 
(shadrak) We still need someone to 
   define what is meant by society's 
   problems
(flamingo) I vote yes to our 4 topics
(Tina) society's problems oculd be 
   anything from violence, drug 
   problems, addictions, 
(Tina) it could be anything
(sal) right
) so would involve refining to cover 
  just a few 
*** sk has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
(flamingo) The people who work on the 
   Society's Problems can decide what to 
   cover???
) k i will be in society's problems,
(shadrak) Who wants to take on the chore 
   of limiting the scope of that subject?
(flamingo) I will also be in society's 
   problems
) great flamingo
(Tina) but I don't think you could put a 
   topic such as society's problems as a 
   main topic and have only one or two 
   things under it
(sal) i see no problem with covering 
   what we can...
(shadrak) Can you two work out a joint 
   definition?
(Tina) I think you'd have to put the two 
   sub topics on the page
(flamingo) Let the Society's Problems 
   people decide??
) tina, we can say the main topic if 
  pick one societal problem
(flamingo) Tina ... don't you fall under 
   SP too
*** sk (sk@shk.cts.com) has joined 
#societal
) it doesn't have to be all
(shadrak) Sure flamingo,  Dose dat duz 
   the woik gets to define it.
(sal) hahaa
(flamingo) YOu're bad shad  ;-)
* shadrak says Never violate the Prime 
  Directory! C:\

(sk) i got lost again - was anything 
   decided ?
(sal) we've been working on infosources 
   for several months now...and it grows 
   and topics expand...
) almost sk
(sal) there is no reason why this can't 
   do the same...
(flamingo) yes, sal
) and i still like sal's consumer info 
  too, 
(sk) I'm all for evolution
) how about societal issues, rather than 
  saying problems
(sal) hahahah....me too!
(sal) that's good, anne
(Tina) well just decide on what topic 
   you want me to work on... I'm still 
   too confused 
(sk) issues is good 

(shadrak) sk and sal...do you want to 
   work on a joint definition for Health 
   care?
) then that could cover consumer, 
  battered women, connecting folks to 
  info, etc
(sal) we're talking, shad...and will 
   share some ideas and come up with 
   something...
(sk) in general or for the page...:)
(flamingo) Tina, your info would fall 
   under Society's Issues (Problems)
(sk) yes
* sal and sk could probably solve all 
  the health care woes in the U.S.
(sk) one can dream
(sal) yeah.
) and find a better sinus medication for 
  sal ;)
(sal) can't beat my claritin!

(shadrak) Anyone want to work on 
   government..I'd like to hear Ingo's 
   and Fredrik's ideas since they are 
   not US
) good idea shadrak
(sal) right...
* flamingo says to Tina.. Your ideas can 
  go under Society's Issues (Problems)???
) and also sweden has different for 
  health care, social issues
(Tina) I suppose
(ingo) I can try to give some input - 
   I'm only an import not a 'real 
   Canadian'
) where do you want it to go Tina
) where are you from originally ingo?
(sal) hmmm...didn't think you sounded 
   canadian...   ;-)
* shadrak says to sal I'm immortal...so 
  far. - Earle Robinson
(Tina) anne, I don't even know what I'm 
   gonna do now
(ingo) germany, I guessed you noticed my 
   accent., eh
) lol ingo
(Tina) so I guess it can go under that
(sk) tina, your initial topics were 
   really good ones - stay with those - 
   i know they can fit into the project
(shadrak) I think we ought to quit while 
   we're ahead!
) i agree sk
(sal) what are you interested in, tina? 
   go with that and find a place to put 
   it!
(Tina) how much more work are we going 
   to put into the page before next week
(flamingo) Tina's ideas will fit under 
   Society's Problems
(Tina) I mean probably a bit more before 
   we pass it in
) oh for sure tina
) flamingo I think you were working on 
  some graphics
(shadrak) amen to that sal!  Enjoy what 
   you do Tina, and don't worry about 
   where it fits.  Have you seen our 
   Infosources page.  It's a scramble.
(sal) and we've learned a lot and had a 
   ball without tearing out our hair
) and it sounds like stephanie and sk 
  will pull it together
(flamingo) Yes anne, I've been having 
   fun working on graphics this week
) great

(sk) stephanie and sk are the same person
) i mean sk and sal. sorry
(sk) never mind
(shadrak) 4 now she tells us 
(sal) i wondered what happened to 
   stephanie...
) oh i knew it from her email address sal
(sk) too long to type out
) it starts with sk
(shadrak) Irwin hasn't been here either.
* sal waves smelling salts under 
  shadrak's nose.
(sal) you know what i've been going thru 
   with email...
* Tina thinks shadrak forgot she was 
  from canada to ;b
(sal) thank goodness, shad...never did 
   like him
) oh you know what, would be nice if 
  everyone sends email as to where they 
  are from, city, state, country etc
(Tina) oh
(Tina) are any of you going to make the 
   class meeting tomorrow night
(Tina) and does anyone know where it's at
) it will be at buffnet
(shadrak) Yep tina, New Brunswick which 
   is in the -1 Eastern Standard Time 
   Zone
) yes i plan to come
(sal) or if you have it (bio) on the 
   web, it will cut down on email!!!!
(sal) i'm not...
(Liz) There's an info site called FedLaw 
   http://www.legal.gsa.gov  note their 
   contents, background, and scope & 
   approach section.  Government info 
   can be overwhelming but they limited 
   their scope and notified the user of 
   it so that the user won't get 
   frustrated or confused.  This helps 
   direct the info seeker to get around 
   the site.  It's a good info site 
   check it out.  Not a lot of graphics 
   because it caters to the researcher 
   who may not wish to get bogged no
(Liz) load.
) oh the bio on the web is better
(shadrak) nor me
(Tina) I'll come but it's at 11 pm my 
   time so I may only be there 1/2 hr or 
   1 hr
) and if there is good stuff after you 
  go, i will send you the log tina
(Tina) thanks anne

) sk and liz, have you done a /list  to 
  see the channels on the server yet
(shadrak) good site liz..I'm there now
(sk) no
) it will probably be some version of 
  #825 or #room825 or #vu825, will just 
  have to look when you get here
) close down your channel screen so you 
  come to the typing area in the status 
  screen
(Liz) anne, no
) right now just type  "/list  with the 
  quotes
) you will see a list of channels 
) can do it now

(shadrak) One more problem.  Do we need 
   to assign times for each of us to 
   update the page?
(Liz) "/list
(sal) here's the address for my bio
) then click on the channel
(sal) http://www.oocities.org/CapeCanave
   ral/8382/salbio.html
) sal, you can cut off the infosources, 
  and load it to societal info
(shadrak) sal, why not link your name on 
   1238 to your bio?
) that is what shad did
(sal) right....
(sal) will do so...
(Tina) ok
(Tina) another thing
) liz, don't put the quote tho, just   
  /list
(sal) for more info, go to my homepage...

(Tina) next week, who is going to be in 
   charge of passing in our homework
* flamingo was wondering if we decided 
  if only a few people should be making 
  changes to the main web page???
(shadrak) I vote for sal
(sal) not me, shad...i'm still having 
   email problems and my computer isn't 
   configured right...
) i can help collect some of the stuff 
  for it too to give
(shadrak) Never decided anything f.  I 
   think everyone should have access, 
   but we need to prevent "two at once" 
   somehow
(flamingo) How do we do that Shad?
(shadrak) I'll pass in the howework if I 
   can figure out what they want.
) liz, which is the best email for you 
  after work as sometimes stuff comes at 
  nite when folks are changing
) thanks shad
(Tina) we need to send in, all memebers 
   names, emails of each, study group 
   name, homepage url, a brief note or 
   log demonstrating team participation, 
   a brief description of site and its 
   purpose, and names of team leaders
(Liz) anne, the best email is at home, 
   locuse@ipass.net
) and we already have our tags without 
  even adding our new stuff
(Tina) anne that's true LOL I forgot that
(shadrak) Pick a time for yourself for 
   access and we can set up a schedule.  
   Let's try email for the first 
   iteration.
) shad, will you send out the change for 
  liz too
(shadrak) what change anne?
) it will be a bit before it get 
  straightened out, we can forward 
  something important at nite
) she wants us to use her home email for 
  the group list
(shadrak) ok

) liz, did you have a home page you want 
  us to add to your info?
(Liz) anne, not at this present time.  
   :-(
) right now there is just email, and i 
  will change it to the new email
(shadrak) Think she should add it 
   herself.  She needs the practice!
) oh i agree shadrak, it is better if 
  she does it
) ingo, you need to change liz's email 
  on the mail to the group link too
(ingo) ok, I will.  
) locuse@ipass.net
(ingo) got it
) that is the one to change it on our 
  email lists too shad
) liz, do you know how to get to the 
  editor
(sk) well, I've got to go now. See you 
   in email land.
(Tina) bye sk
*** sk (sk@shk.cts.com) has left 
#societal
) nice meeting you stepahnie
(shadrak) bye stephanie
(Liz) anne, excuse my ignorance, what 
   editor?  Are you referring to the one 
   for Pirch or an HTML editor? Duh!!  
   :-]
) when you go to our group page, you 
  will see that the email address is 
  your work one
) to change it, you need to use the html 
  editor at geocities
) it is index.html  
) then just change it to the correct one 
  and hit view/change whatever that 
  button is
) irwin sent you the logon name and 
  password to get into the site
(shadrak) When you get to geocities 
   Utilities, select the EDIT HTML 
   DOCUMENT Utility.  It will ask for 
   your logon (after a while), then 
   click on SELECT EDITOR.  When you get 
   to that page pick the middle of the 
   three editoors available.
(Tina) when we start our second lesson, 
   I woujld like to change what is on 
   index.html now to another name and 
   use index.html as our header page... 
   what is there now I would keep as a 
   link on the main page... so people 
   can see our progress, and stuff
) let me know if you need more directions
   and i will email you
) that is fine tina

(shadrak) What's going to be on the main 
   page Tina?
(shadrak) Letter correcting Liz' address 
   is sent.  I'll email the info liz
(Tina) shad, I thought the title, 
   societal information (kinda nice 
   whatever), maybe a short paragraph 
   about what it's about, a list of all 
   the topcis we're working on with 
   links to each page
(Tina) and whatever else we'd like on 
   the main page
(Tina) we need a main page 
(shadrak) OK...just checking to see if 
   you knew what you were doing :)
(Tina) shad heheh *blush* :b sometimes I 
   do and sometimes I don't ;)

) who is going to take off the on/of 
  button for sound?
(shadrak) Well I'm gonna go bye bye now. 
    I think it's been productive!
(sal) i don't know...but i hope they 
   do...
(Tina) are we gonna leave the sound on 
   and just remove the button
(flamingo) seeya shad
(Tina) or remove the button and sound
(Tina) bye shad
) we just need to be careful and make 
  sure changes we made didn't get 
  overwritten
(shadrak) 4 WHO PUT IT ON ??? 
(ingo) bye shad
) i do not know , thought you did shad
* shadrak says TTYL
*** shadrak (irwin@irwin.pacificnet.net) 
has left #societal
(sal) i like giving people a choice...hav
   e the link to the file and let them 
   click it if they want
(sal) i really don't like being forced 
   to hear music...
) we all do, but MSIE for a lot of folks 
  is giving them an error that the midi 
  file will not play
(Liz) I am going to depart.  It's 8pm 
   EST and I have to pick up my mom a 
   birthday gift from the mail.  Keep me 
   posted via email.  Thanks you guys.  
   Will be chatting with you ingo.
) i do not think that happened until the 
  button was on
(Tina) yeah I better go too
(flamingo) seeya Liz
) anybody here who could not hear the 
  sound in MSIE?
(ingo) liz, I will get in touch with you 
   soon, bye
) bye
*** Liz has quit IRC (EOF From client)
(sal) i keep my sound off on the 
   web...because of all the pages which 
   want to entertain me...
) maybe it was not the on/off button 
  then, maybe it was just in general for 
  MSIE
) i will ask shad as he is the one who 
  could not get the sound
(sal) the button didn't even show up for 
   me in msie
) i know sal
(sal) just a blank ...
(Tina) I will go remove it
(Tina) but do you want the soundr meoved 
   also?
(flamingo) Maybe it is the way it is 
   coded
(Tina) or left
) No leave the sound please
(sal) does it add anything?
) then we will know if it is configured 
  ok
) yes i like it
(sal) why not put a link in it?
(sal) for it
(sal) all browsers can handle that
(Tina) how do you put a link in for to 
   play a midi?
(sal) just like for an image
(ingo) I think we need to give people a 
   choice with soung, large graphs, etc. 
) sal has several on her webpage
(ingo) I am for the links
(sal) i agree, ingo!!!
) sal, why don;'t you fix it to do that 
  then if you would please
) then tina will see how you did it
(sal) i'll be glad to, but don't know 
   how others feel about that...
) stephaie wanted a choice cause music 
  crashes her browser sometimes
(sal) it does for lots of folks
) flamingo, what do you think
(flamingo) I'm flexible
) me too
) then we can always change it again 
  later if we decide too
(sal) ok...let's try it the way i do 
   it...and if y'all don't like it, then 
   someone else can do it another way...
(sal) but the netscape specific tags are 
   the pits for those of us who don't 
   use netscape...
(ingo) I need to leave, bye everybody
) when the player does not show at all, 
  it plays in both
) ingo, glad you made it
(flamingo) seeya ingo
(sal) take care, ingo
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(Tina) sal, when you do it
) are you going to add your email link 
  to the webpage
(sal) right...

*** ingo (a066@dialup1.lambton.on.ca) 
has left #societal
) too late
(Tina) you'll have to move the sound 
   file from wher eit is I think
(sal) where is it???
) no she won't. it is in the directory 
  already
(Tina) no I mean on the page
) oh right,
(Tina) it's in with the (body) tag
) maybe under the societal title
(sal) it can be anywhere...
(sal) ok...
(Tina) yep
) but sal always writes a little 
  description too
(sal) now, this will give some additional
    text...
(Tina) I just found one on her page
(sal) yes..to let them know what size 
   file and the name...
(Tina) well bye guys... I guess I'll 
   start gathering stuff for the topic 
   I'm doing
(sal) take care, tina

) tina, who put the background on?
(Tina) flamingo, I'd like to see what 
   you've been working on also
) nite tina
(Tina) I did anne
(Tina) is there a problem?
) it looks really nice
(flamingo) seeya tina
(Tina) oh thanks
) and i like the text color
(Tina) anne, I changed the text color 
   back to black
(Tina) chris said she could read it
(sal) there was a yellow burlap-looking 
   one i liked...
(Tina) I liked the color too
) ooooh too bad
(Tina) couldn't I mean
(sal) but it disappeared fast
(Tina) sal I know shad said he cojldn't 
   see on that background
(Tina) LOL
(Tina) it's going to be hard to get 
   something everyone likes :)

(flamingo) Tina, when my website is back 
   up I will load one of my slide shows 
   on
(Tina) flamingo, cool can't wait
) i cannot wait to see the slide show
(sal) trying to load it...
) hope it is ready soon
(sal) oh....ok
(Tina) I was thinking
(flamingo) It is sooooo easy to do a 
   slide show
*** chris (~emeraldCi@ts4-219.pacific.net
) has joined #societal
) hi chris
(Tina) chris
(flamingo) Hi chris
(Tina) you made it ;)
(chris) hey you are all still here
(Tina) well some of us are
(chris) just got home
) are you sure that you could not read 
  the navy text on the background, it 
  was soooo pretty
(sal) hey, chris!
*** anne sets mode: +o chris
(chris) thanx anne
(sal) i also like the look of the page 
   better in msie
* anne says we are almost more confused 
  than when we started
(Tina) I didn't see much difference 
   between msie and netscape
) but we are getting there
) it was no different to me either tina
* sal knows that she's a luddite, but 
  there is also a reason for books being 
  printed in one column per page
(sal) you didn't??????
) i was talking about the colors sal
(sal) oh...
(sal) whew!
) i know there were no columns in msie
(Tina) oh that
(Tina) yeah hehehe
(chris) sal, did that have to do with 
   the printing press?
(sal) hahaha...
(sal) probably did...but it's a lot 
   easier to follow that way
) chris, what were you using that you 
  could not see the navy text?
(Tina) I think chris said it was 
   difficult to see the text
(Tina) on the background
(sal) visual "noise" gets to me...
(chris) Netscape, but I never said I 
   could not see it, I said it was 
   difficult to read
) she changed it to black now
) so i will have to look again
(sal) i wonder if a darker blue would 
   work...
) tina, eventually we get to something 
  we can all live with
(chris) With most backgrounds, it is 
   better to have a larger font
(sal) although the black looks good...
(chris) I thought we were going to get 
   rid of the columns
(chris) lol
) chris, i will send you the log so you 
  get an idea of any changes in intro to 
  make too
(chris) Oh, thanks I appreciate it
* sal 's stomach is purring...or is that 
  growling...
(Tina) so do we want to remove colums 
   altogether
) folks are going to draft the different 
  areas to cover
) i am happy with whatever
(chris) I think we should
(sal) since i use msie, they are 
   gone...it really doesn't matter to 
   me...but lots of people won't have 
   browsers that handle columns
) and kinda liked the columns, but was 
  great with MSIe without columns too
) and leapin uses MSIE so she would not 
  see columns, ghatten will with NS
(flamingo) Anne and Tina... should we 
   get together to chat about what we 
   will do under Society's Issues 
   (Problems)???
) probably a good idea flamingo
(Tina) flamingo, sure
(Tina) we can do it now if you want
(chris) ok
(Tina) well I'm there now
(chris) where is there? confused
(flamingo) I have about 5 minutes before 
   I have to go to channel #821 to help 
   out with html class
) ok
(sal) folks...i'm going to get larry to 
   take me to eat!!!!!! I'm starving...
(sal) later
(Tina) flamingo ok when can you and ann 
   get together
*** sal has quit IRC (Y'all take care!)
(Tina) chris, sorry I'm at the page and 
   I'm gonna remove the columns
) pretty much anytime tina, except 8 
  tomorrow
(chris) good tina
) i am glad i have a backup just to see 
  how they are done

(Tina) what about monday night
(flamingo) same for me tina
) we meet for infosources at 8pm EST
(Tina) what time are you anne and you 
   flamingo in
(flamingo) est
) i am EST too and you are one hour 
  later than us
(Tina) well I can meet anytime
(chris) What are we meeting for (sorry I 
   came in on the tail end)
) should we do it sunday earlier or 
  before on monday
(Tina) sunday's fine
(flamingo) I can on sunday but not on 
   monday
) trying to define the areas chris, you 
  can pick which area you want to
(chris) Superbowl starts at 6:00 but I 
   could couchtop it
) k
(chris) Health and MisInfo
(chris) I am taking a health class, so 
   why not kill 2 birds with one stone
) and the 825 class is at 10 EST
(Tina) tomorrow afternoon around 3 pm 
   eastern
(Tina) chris, I think health was one of 
   the tpics they chose tonight
(Tina) it was wasn't it?
(Tina) government, education, health/medi
   cine, and socieal problems
) yes it is health and i think it was 
  stephanie who wanted to work on it
) so you can work with her to define the 
  topic too chris
(chris) Well, I will wait for the 
   transcript, but maybe we can work 
   together
) yes, shad kept trying to talk sal into 
  it, but she did not really want that 
  area
) trying to get at least two per topic
) so now that we say it, i do not know 
  what sal said
) she will fit better anothe area anyway
) how about 5 PST instead of 6? sunday
(Tina) ummm
(chris) that is good for me
) that would make it a little earlier
(flamingo) so that is 8EST
(flamingo) ok for me
) i think so
(Tina) so what time are we meeting 
   tomororw?
) tina, what is best for you, earlier or 
  later?
(Tina) ack typos
(chris) But is that a societal problems 
   chat or more
(Tina) this is a societal chat chris
(chris) thanx tina
(Tina) it doesn't matter anne, as long 
   as it's before 11 which is the whole 
   class 
) k
(chris) I thought the class was 7pst
) it is chris
(Tina) chris, that's 11 my time lol
(Tina) sorry
(flamingo) 8 Est is a good time for me 
   for our chat
(chris) Where are you Tina?
(Tina) ok tomorrow night 8 est
) ok then let us meet then, 
(Tina) chris, saint john, new brunswick, 
   canada
(chris) Sounds good
(Tina) in this same channel?
(flamingo) sounds good tina and anne
(Tina) ok see you tomorrow night everyone
) we can meet on #societal  whoever is 
  here first has to create the channel
(chris) nite tina
*** Tina (tatyana@stjhts01c20.nbnet.nb.ca
) has left #societal

(chris) So anne and flamingo, what 
   topics are you doing?
) chris, the url shadrak wanted us to 
  look at was one of the societal ones 
  he sent us
) sociology of different stuff
) shadrak is government
) liz and ingo are education
) chris and stephanie medicine
) sal wanted consumer information, am 
  not sure what area she agreed too
(chris) consumer info is a good one!
) social issues or problems is such a 
  braod area we need to make it narrower
(chris) hmmmm, I think u are right
) tina I am not sure where she wants to 
  go, it may be more a matter of us all 
  using different terms
) but battered women, abortion info, 
  women stuff was an interest for her
) and you are signed up for misinformatio
  n too
) chris
(chris) Well I looked up the word 
   societal and it was kinda like 
   community, and community problems 
   differs upon the level of community
(chris) Yes, I am gatherthing stuff for 
   that also
) oh you will see in the log about 
  ingo's barriers for employment
(flamingo) Well, I need to go. Anne I'll 
   chat with you tomorrow. Chris the 
   work that you have done on our group 
   web page is great!
(chris) oh, neat, good topic
) and flamingo has a slide show for us 
  too see soon
) which she will add
(chris) Thanks flamingo, have a nice nite
) i agree flamingo
(chris) can't wait
) nite flamingo, see ya tomorrow
(flamingo) seeya
*** flamingo (flamingo@ad13-101.compuserv
e.com) has left #societal
(chris) well, thanks for filling me in, 
   See you tomorrow 5pst

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