Log Societal Group: Feb, 17 1997

Consensus achieved via e-mail re music before meeting:
One subject is "Use of sound" and (shadrak) 
I'll start it off by saying that, with 
rare exception, I object to use of sound 
(especially loud sound) that I  can't turn off.
(Tina) There should be a choice whether to turn it on
and also a way to turn it off
***It is well documented that Sal browses with her
speakers turned OFF.

Anne's comments preceeded by ) without nick
Session Start: Mon Feb 17 20:16:09 1997
*** Now talking in #societal
(anneafk) hi guys
(Ghatten) says she is just a little cat 
   curled up in the corner napping with 
   one eye
(Ghatten) HI Anne
(ingo) Hi anne
(Ghatten) LOL
(Tina) hi anne
(anneafk) guess i need to stick as we 
  are all here
(shadrak) IE has trouble connecting to 
   geo..were those the bad links?
(anneafk) how has trouble connecting?
(anneafk) who
(ingo) don't think so, as they worked in 
   NS
*** ingo sets mode: +o anneafk
(anneafk) thanks
(anneafk) i really do have to run and 
  will hang here afk til get back
(anneafk) i added e-less links to 
  lesson3.html, links seem to work
(anneafk) you need to use home-les3.htm 
  at ann e-less new site to see her 
  homework page, apparently she does not 
  have an index.html to show she moved 
  int
(anneafk) brb
*** shadrak has quit IRC (The old one 
has departed!)
*** shadrak (irwin@Default) has joined 
#societal
*** ingo sets mode: +o shadrak
(ingo) I just tried it again and it 
   works fine :)
(shadrak) am i here?
(shadrak) guess so
(anneafk) which file are you talking 
  about and where ingo
(Tina) yes
(shadrak) sal is having trouble 
   connecting
(anneafk) oh dear
(anneafk) tell her to set normal under 
  local info shadrak
(shadrak) I did
(anneafk) i had too many parameters 
  without doing that
(shadrak) she connects then it breaks
(anneafk) should i go connect at buffnet 
  too just in case you guys move there 
  while i am gone?
(anneafk) will do that anyway
(ingo) I tried  various links in both 
   browsers, and the same would work in 
   NS but not in MSIE
Session Start: Mon Feb 17 20:23:42 1997
*** Now talking in #societal
*** shadrak sets mode: +o anne
[shadrak SOUND]
) i will stick both places, and brb
(ingo) Cann't think of any software 
   conflict 
(Tina) ingo, what links are you talking 
   abo ut?
(ingo) On Shad's government site, eg 
   hungary and lithuania did not come up
*** flamingo (flamingo@ad80-065.compuserv
e.com) has joined #societal
(ingo) I checked them just now and 
   they're fine
(flamingo) Hi everyone!
(ingo) Hi there
(Ghatten) {{{{{{{ flamingo }}}}}}}
*** Ghatten sets mode: +o flamingo
(Tina) ingo, I just looked at shad's 
   site on msie and I see the links
(Tina) hi flamingo
(flamingo) Hi ghatten
(flamingo) Hi Tina
(flamingo) Hi Ingo
(ingo) That was earlier today
(ingo) hi flan INGO
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has joined #societal
(ingo) flam Ingo of course
(ingo) Hi Liz
(Liz) hi everyone
(flamingo) I went to the page that ann 
   e-less said to go to and there isn't 
   anything there.
(flamingo) Hi Liz
*** ingo sets mode: +o Liz
(Tina) flamingo, her page looks almost 
   like ingo's and anne added it to the 
   homework page
(shadrak) sal can't connect here.
(flamingo) k
(Tina) so are we moving to buffnet/
(shadrak) yes..let's
(Tina) ok
(Ghatten) well  Iwill let you meet in 
   peace..
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*** shadrak sets mode: +o Tina
(shadrak) hi Tina
(Ghatten) Have a great meeting...
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(Tina) hi shad, sal
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com) has left #societal
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#societal
(Tina) oops sal's not here ;b
*** shadrak sets mode: +o sal
[shadrak SOUND]
(Tina) hi sal
(sal) hi, folks...
(sal) thanks...
(sal) i couldn't get connected...or stay 
   connected
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joined #societal
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*** shadrak sets mode: +o ingo
(shadrak) hi ingo
*** shadrak sets mode: +o flamingo
(shadrak) hi flamingo
(flamingo) Hi shad
(sal) hi, folks...
(sal) thanks for coming over here...
(flamingo) Hi sal
(shadrak) Log kept showing you disconnect
   ing, never connecting???
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has joined #societal
*** shadrak sets mode: +o Liz
(shadrak) hi Liz
(Liz) hi everybody
(sal) right...i have no idea what was 
   going on...that's never happened to 
   me before...
(sal) hi, liz...
(ingo) Hi everybody - 
*** ingo (a066@ts1-3.sar.hookup.net) has 
left #societal
(shadrak) e-less coming tonite?
(sal) don't know...
(flamingo) I have a question for 
   everyone?  What size monitor are you 
   using?
(sal) 15 inch
(Liz) 17in
(shadrak) wait'll I get my ruler!!!
(ingo) guess 14"
(shadrak) 14"
(flamingo) I have a 15 in at home and do 
   most of my coding with that monitor. 
   Then when I go to work and look at my 
   web pages on a 14 in monitor 
   everything looks different.
(shadrak) Why do you ask?
(Tina) I have about a 14 I guess
(sal) hmmm, interesting...
(shadrak) Have you got resolution set 
   the same on both machines?
(sal) wonder what the most prevalent 
   size is...
(flamingo) yes shad
(Tina) my resolution is set at the 
   lowest, since most people who surf 
   are at the lowest
(Tina) the most prev size is the 640 x 
   400 or whatever the exact is for the 
   lowest
(flamingo) I'm having trouble using a 
   table with a line background and 
   having it work with both monitors.
(shadrak) I'm at 1024x 768 so I can get 
   more on the screen.
(sal) 640X480? do they really use that 
   resolution???
(Tina) sal, yes a lot of people use it
(Tina) if you read the newgroups for 
   html coding, they'll tell you that is 
   the most prevalent size
(sal) wow! i guess they don't have to 
   use their glasses, then...
(shadrak) Isn't that all they've got on 
   the older machines?
(sal) i read those groups selectively...j
   ust the questions that ring a bell 
   for me
(sal) don't know, shad
) whew i am back
(sal) tee-hee...
(shadrak) Oh were you gone?
) LOL told you i would be back
(flamingo) How do you do a page and 
   worry about the different size 
   screens?
(shadrak) Since I have only one size 
   myself, there isn't much I can do in 
   the way of testing.
) what i am reading is that some prepare 
  theirs for 600 x 800 and then check to 
  see how it looks in other
(Tina) well it's a bit hard, that's why 
   when I use tables, for width I use 
   percents because the table will 
   shrink with the screen size as a % 
   but as a solid # like width=400 if I 
   look at a large resolution, it'll 
   stop at 400 and leave blank white 
   space the rest of the way
) there is a utility in those tutorials 
  that sal sent us that has a resolution 
  checker utility
(flamingo) Sal close your eyes... I'm 
   ready to put this page in frames so 
   it will work.
Session Close: Mon Feb 17 20:43:33 1997

(Tina) lol
(shadrak) I think we are confusing two 
   issues: (1) screen size (2) resolution
   .
(sal) arghhhh!
) i have 14" for that 680 resolution
(sal) that's ok, cynthia...i'm not a 
   teen!  ;-)
(Tina) anne I do also but I can change 
   it to 800 resolution and I can get 
   more on a page
(flamingo) too funny sal... ;-)
(Tina) but for design purposes I leave 
   it at 680 and go back and forth to 
   check
) oh my monitor goes into fits when i 
  change it tina
(ingo) sounds familiar, Anne
) gotta call on my other monitor
(shadrak) Flamingo's problem seems to be 
   related to size, independent of 
   resolution, if I undersatnd her 
   correctly.
) when i look at flamingo's teen 
  concerns title, i have to scroll a bit 
  to get the end of it in my monitor
) i wonder if e-less remembers we are 
  meeting?
(flamingo) I'm not worried about having 
   to scroll but I am worried about the 
   text going over my line border.
) oh ok i see 
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*** shadrak sets mode: +o Ghatten
(shadrak) hi Ghatten
) wb ghatten ;)
(sal) hi, jean
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has joined #societal
*** shadrak sets mode: +o ck
(shadrak) hi ck
(Ghatten) Hi back again for a little 
   while
(sal) hey, chris!
) hi ck
(ingo) Hi ck and ghatten
(ck) sorry I am late, I had 40 e-mails 
   to read
(ck) ingo, neat job on the homework 
   page!!!!!
(ingo) thanks
(shadrak) you're welcome
(ck) and tina, I love our main page
(Tina) thanks
(shadrak) you're welcome
(Tina) shad LOL
(flamingo) So, what do I do... Get rid 
   of the line border, go to a table, or 
   what?
) brb checking to see what you mean 
  flamingo
(ck) what happened to e-less, she was at 
   shad's chat place
(shadrak) I'm helping her move
(sal) i'm sorry, cynthia...i can't find 
   your page...
* sal watches as shad packs e-less's 
  bags...
(flamingo) http://www.oocities.org/Athen
   s/Acropolis/6729/anger1.htm
(sal) thanks.
(ck) lol sal
*** e-less (~ann@206.123.6.166) has 
joined #societal
) i just found it
) welcome e-less, you must be worn out
*** anne sets mode: +o e-less
(sal) hi, e-less
(e-less) me too - thanks to shadrak
(flamingo) hi e-less
(ingo) Hi e-less
(ck) hi e-less, I was unable to find 
   your web page
(e-less) hi all - glad to be here
(flamingo) Anne, do you see what I mean?
(Tina) flamingo, what about making the 
   border a bit smaller, not make it so 
   wide? 
(shadrak) I think that's everyone, so I 
   shut down my server.
(flamingo) I thought about that . Do you 
   think that will take care of the 
   problem?
(Tina) don't know
(Ghatten) hi
) flamingo, how about also trying hard 
  spaces if you need to for certain 
  lines or chris' single pixel info
(sal) it might...it's a shame for some 
   of the text to be offscreen...
(Tina) but you might also try this... 
   (table border=0 width=100%)
(ck) cynthia, are you using the (center) 
   tag?
(Tina) sometimes I have to put the 
   width=100% there before I split it up 
   in the TD's
(ingo) flamingo, you got the same 
   problem Shad had, try it MSIE and it 
   looks fine
(flamingo) I'll try that Tina
) nothing scrolls off the screen for me 
  flamingo, but the top title does bump 
  into the background bricks on the left
(sal) but the text runs off the browser 
   in msie, ingo
(e-less) it's at heartland/plains/8226 - 
   I just got the pages up about 1 hour 
   ago - and I thought they were there
(e-less) who's ck?
(shadrak) Different problem Ingo..she 
   bleeds in 4.0
(flamingo) On my 15" monitor it looks 
   fine, but on the 14" monitor the text 
   is on the border.
(ingo) ok
(ck) this does not work: http://www.geoci
   ties.com/Heartland/Plains/8226/home-le
   s3.html
(ck) and this: http://www.oocities.org/H
   eartland/Plains/8226/
(ck) says quillquest has not moved in 
   yet - please check back later.
) ck, take off the l and make it htm
(sal) hmmm...and there is a huge white 
   space in msie...
) it is there then
(Liz) on my 17in the text is also in the 
   border
(ck) anne, for me it is the "because" 
   sentence....
) be of because is on the bricks, the 
  rest wraps and is centered
) ck, i do not think e-less has uploaded 
  an index.html file yet
) just the ones she did for homework 
  that are there now
) the other thing i am wondering about 
  in the tables, where ingo has added an 
  extra (tr) gets space between things, 
  but showed up in a validator as extra 
  open table row tags
(flamingo) So, what is the answer for 
   how I can fix this? Any ideas?
-) [anne] PING
(ck) I think it has more to do with the 
   width of the window ... what the user 
   sets
(e-less) but I uploaded the pages -does 
   it take a while for geocities to put 
   them in place?
(ck) You have no control over what width 
   the user sets the window to
(shadrak) Flaming.  I had to make the 
   left column an ABSOLUTE rather than a 
   percent to keep from bleeding in 
   smaller windows.
(sal) now, in anger5, the text is over 
   the bricks...
(ck) I don't think so e-less.  
(sal) even maximized...
(flamingo) Shad, is that the message 
   that you sent earlier for us to check 
   out your coding on?
(shadrak) Not quite.  That had to do 
   with a "bug" in NS 3 that requires 
   handling.  But as long as you express 
   the left column width as a percent, 
   you have the potential to bleed when 
   people use small windows.
) e-less, sometimes you have to hit 
  reload to see the changes in geocities 
  pages also
(e-less) is there something else I have 
   to do maybe? I psted my pages - could 
   view them - posted the again in the 
   file managaer- laos - I found that 
   the % didn't really apply when I 
   changed view sizes of window
(ingo) e-less, your page comes up at 
   http://www.oocities.org/Heartland/Pla
   ins/8226/home-les3.htm
(shadrak) The ABSOLUTE width should 
   correspond roughly with the width of 
   your border.
(flamingo) Ok, shad
(e-less) so ingo - you see it ?
(ingo) yes
) that is right shad, you said it worked 
  better with pixel number than 
  percentage
(ck) oh, the old missing el trick.  Ann 
   is e-less and l-less
(e-less) good - yeah e-with said 
   something about renaming my file to 
   html - why - does it make a difference
   ? I"m so trained to w3.1
) i can only have files on my ISP with 
  html 
(shadrak) But then you'll need my 
   JavaScript to make it look right in 
   earlier (than 4) versions of NS
) if you ever decide to move your pages, 
  you would not have to go back and 
  rename all the .htm to .html
) is one reason
(ck) it is a pain in the neck for 3.1 
   people, they have to remember to 
   rename files after downloading
(ck) The 'official' extension is html 
   but htm works
) but at geocities, you can check to 
  rename .htm automatically to .html
(shadrak) Why do you need to rename them 
   the ".htm" works fine.
(ck) oh, that is kewl anne
(e-less) but what about all those people 
   with only w3.1 who can't handle long 
   file names?
(ingo) e-less, your logo at the bottom 
   does not show
) it does not work fine for me shadrak, 
  that is why i always rename to .html
) otherwise they will not show on my ISP 
  at all
(ck) just as long as ann doesn't give 
   out the html address it is ok
) ingo, e-less made the reference to her 
  hard drive file for the file
) she needs to upload the graphic to her 
  site
) and change the reference
(ingo) I thought so
(flamingo) My ISP will only let you 
   upload .htm files
* ck is grateful for anne's infinite 
  wisdom and patience
(e-less) but I did that when I posted 
   all my files ot geocities no ?
) that is interesting
) i just have my cutepftp set to 
  automatically be ready to rename
(ingo) it might have automatically 
   captialized your file name
) e-less, check that everything is lower 
  case in the work directory
) if name, rename them to be so
(shadrak) I think if you maintain your 
   stuff on your PC it's a pain to have 
   to rename stuff because then your 
   links are all fouled up. 
(e-less) are yo saying that in my the 
   geocities files the references are to 
   my local drive?
) just on that logosm.gif e-less
) everything else is fine
) shadrak, i always have to change to 
  longer filenames as win95 folks can do 
  that
(e-less) oh - thanks - I didn't upload 
   logosm.gif 'cause I didn't think I 
   used it
) yep you did
(ingo) some html editors will automatical
   ly refer to the full path on your pc 
   if you insert pictures
(e-less) what editors do you use - I 
   wound up with the netscape one but 
   ther must be a better way
(shadrak) Try Hippie on win3.1 cmed on 
   win95
(sal) i use the one at geo...or 
   notepad...same thing...
) sal and i are still using plain old 
  text files in notepad, mine is in word 
  and done by hand
(ingo) html assistant pro 
(Liz) i use notepad
(ck) I hate html editors, best to learn 
   the html tags and a plain old simple 
   editor
(flamingo) I use notepad
(shadrak) You'll learn more using 
   Notepad :)
* sal says, "Attagirl, Liz!"
* anne says Ghatten taught us that in 
  821 :)
* sal says, "Attagirl, ck!"
(e-less) but that's so painful - what 
   about when you have lots of text with 
   bullets and indents and stuff?
* sal says, "Attagirl, flamingo!"
(Ghatten) cut and paste heaven
(Tina) I learned using notepad, but now 
   use web edit
(ck) copy n paste
) copy and paste stuff
(shadrak) Note pad is great for that :)
(flamingo) yes, it is
(ingo) I do lots of cut and paste 
   sometimes including the errors
) hahahahaha
(ck) lol ingo, me too
(Liz) ingo me too!  :-)
(sal) one of my favorite tricks!
(shadrak) e-less those gals are too 
   cheap to pay for an HTML editor!
(ingo) I think i am in good company, eh 
   :)
(ck) rofl shad
* sal reaches and delicately plucks out 
  shadrak's function keys.
) that is NOT true LOL
) and shadrak uses CMED i think
(shadrak) yep
) which has lots of help info in it
(sal) hey, there are supposed to be some 
   good free ones...
(e-less) I'll pay! just tell me what - 
   front page? I'm using Wordperfect 7 
   and word 6 and Ventura and none of 
   those do the trick
(shadrak) but it's only for win95
(ck) can html editors do the finessing 
   of a single-pixel transparent gif?
(sal) good thing! he couldn't do those 
   dang frames without help!
(ck) can html editors keep up with new 
   tags?
(sal) use notepad, eless
) that is one of the issues and concerns 
  about editors ck
(shadrak) (FRAMSET) (FRAME) (/FRAMESET)
(sal) hahaha
(e-less) but I"m trying to learn about 
   how to automate this - we have ob=ver 
   1000 document s at work - could't use 
   notepad
(sal) love those frams
* flamingo says that sal just dropped 
  her glasses.
(sal) oh...
(Tina) e-less, for that big a site, it's 
   best to use an editor
(Liz) shadrak, did you do that in 
   notepad?  :-)
(sal) tee-hee
(Tina) frontpage would probably be good 
   for that huge a site
(shadrak) No I used the mIRC Editor.
) ingo, you liked front page didn't you
(ck) e-less, microsoft's internet 
   assistant will convert word to html, 
   I think it is free.. but there is no 
   getting around learning the basic 
   html tags and knowing how to use them 
   and read them
(sal) true
(ck) oh shad I am impressed
(ingo) Yes, I think id did a good job 
   too bad my beta expired
(sal) and the best way to learn is thru 
   using, for me
) but microsoft internet assistant does 
  not have the latest tags ck
(e-less) but I found that simple 
   outline-bulleted list none of the 
   editors could translate correctly 
   into html - yes you're all right - 
   nothing like learning the basics
(shadrak) Neither do most of the 
   validators anne
(ck) yes, it only helps to convert, 
   otherwise it is brain dead
) that is true shad
(ingo) and trough re-doing - anne 
   watched me and can assure you that I 
   am an expert in redoing
) just means you have to know you are 
  right
) just take info for what it is worth
(Tina) are we going to discuss anything 
   tonight... if not I'm going to go guys
) tina wait, we need to decide about 
  music on the main page you made
(flamingo) I have a question!
(shadrak) One of the reasons I chose 
   CMED is that he continually updates 
   for new tags and differentiates 
   between 3.2 MS and NS
(e-less) TTina - I really like your 
   graphics
(Tina) thanks eless
(shadrak) go f.
(e-less) did you use Kai power tools?
(Tina) e-less, no, photoshop and paint 
   shop pro
(sal) do we really need music for this 
   page? it seems kinda...frivolous....
(flamingo) What are we going to use on 
   all of our first link pages off of 
   the main page... the faces profile or 
   the image map?
(shadrak) I vote for the map
(sal) let's don't do a  map
(ck) sound, for sounds sake, is just a 
   gimic, and really doesn't belong on 
   our main page
(sal) right...
) here we go again, lol
) k and we have the version of music on 
  our working page to show how to do it
) that is fine with me
(Tina) instead of a mpa, why don't we 
   just use the test
(Tina) test
(e-less) if ourt site ius aied at people 
   who have trouble accessing - they 
   probvably don't have all the latest 
   higfh tech stuff notr do they want it 
) text
(Tina) on the survivor's page, I just 
   used the text at the top and bottom, 
   not the map
(shadrak) I agree about no sound on the 
   main page.
(sal) right, eless
(e-less) I can't spell
) interesting tho that lynx can see the 
  links with an image map
(flamingo) The text may not show up on 
   my main page.
(e-less) I think no music - keep it 
   simple - think about some homeless 
   person in a library - does not want 
   to hear music
(sal) the new one, anne?
(shadrak) Use a top frame flamingo but 
   don't tell sal.
(ck) good point e-less
(Tina) can someone write a short 
   paragraph about what we are doing 
   with our pages? it shouldn't be too 
   long
) just in 2.5 lynx sal, counselor 
  already knew that
(flamingo) shad... hehehe
* sal grabs shad's frames and runs...
(sal) k
(Ghatten) LOL
(e-less) what is lol?
) it sounds like we need a shortened 
  version of what chris wrote for our 
  mission
(sal) laughing out loud
(e-less) tks
(sal) welcome...and rofl is rolling on 
   floor, laughing
) and sal and chris are both good at 
  writing it together????
(ck) who is chris?
(shadrak) So did we decide on no map, 
   but text and no logo?
) sal was getting frustrated with how 
  everything will fit together tho
(sal) or map, no text, and no logo...
(ck) no logo????
(sal) i still am...
) i think the logo identifies it as 
  societal
(ck) map and text
(sal) it is totally incoherent to me
) can be a button to link home, or just 
  a logo
(ck) map and logo are redundant, one or 
   the other will do
) i agree ck,
) if the image map fits better on 
  someones page than text, could use it
(Tina) I like the logo
(shadrak) I disagree ck, map gets to all 
   pages, logo just goes home
(Tina) and I made it smaller
(ck) if lynx can handle map as you say, 
   I want to go for the map
(Tina) map will look crappy on my pages 
   :b
(ck) well, shad, let's put societal on 
   the map!!!
) ck, when you click on the image3.gif 
  it shows that links
(sal) how long has 2.5 been out, i 
   wonder...
(ingo) i agree with shad, the map is 
   easier for navigation to all pages
) but if we renamed it menu.gif, then 
  the purpose would be better shown
) ingo, the text links also go to all 
  the pages when you show it as a bar
) and it mite be easier to change it as 
  we need too
(Tina) if someone just wants to put text 
   links, is that ok?
(ck) hmmm, maybe after everyone picks 
   their colors, we can come up with a 
   map that works
(shadrak) That's for sure Anne!
) with inside pages like flamingo 
  already has, she has a link to 
  homepage, but needs references to 
  other parts of her teen concerns
(ck) I kinda liked the map that had 
   little gingerbread men on it that 
   tina did
(shadrak) The text links are adequate, 
   and easy to change, and work fine in 
   all versions of Lynx
(sal) i definitely think we need text 
   links if we have a map
) oh ck, i was not as fond of that one 
  and it mite fight with someone elses 
  pages
(shadrak) why sal?
(ck) but shad, when we change the gif, 
   only one thing to change, otherwise, 
   pages and pages to change when we 
   change a topic.
(sal) shad, i usually don't bother to 
   load a map...
(ck) ok anne
(shadrak) true ck.
(ck) I don't think inside pages should 
   have a map, just the main pages
(flamingo) I think that a main link back 
   to the main societal page is plenty.
) i agree with that ck
(e-less) yes - only top menu for map
(ingo) The only problem I can see with 
   the map is for people with boarder 
   gif and fitting the map onto the page
(e-less) who is ck?
(ck) if it matters, I second flamingo's 
   vote...
(sal) ck is chris
) ck is chris Kutler e-less
(ck) e-less, It is I , chris
(e-less) oh - tks
) the female chris, and the right chris 
  in societal
(ingo) image-3 is relatively wide
(sal) from norway?
(shadrak) Use a top frame ingo :)
(sal) tee-hee
) it fit on the border backgrounds tho
(flamingo) Ingo, did you see the smaller 
   version.
(Tina) I th ink image-map and text or 
   just text will work
(Ghatten) Night ya'll my puter quota 
   just expired
(ingo) no problem, I actually like frames
) bye ghatten
(shadrak) nite cat
(sal) take care...
(flamingo) Seeya ghatten
(Ghatten) :)
(ingo) nite ghatten
*** Ghatten (~ghatten@ad41-162.compuserve
.com) has left #societal
(ck) I put forth a vote, 1 for image 
   map, 2 for text, 3 for return to 
   societal main page... everyone pull 
   their levers
(shadrak) Have we decided anything?
(ck) ok me first....3
(Tina) 2
(shadrak) 2
(ingo) 1 with or without frames :)
(flamingo) 3
(shadrak) with
(e-less) 1 - on mainpage
(sal) ?????
(Liz) 1
* anne votes 2 with option for 3
(ck) oops, forgot to put frames in the 
   vote
(shadrak) :(
(ck) 2 3's, 3 1
) no frames unless someone wants to use 
  them
(ck) two 2's
(ck) ones are leading, has everyone 
   voted?
(Tina) one think to remember
(Tina) everyone will probably be using 
   different colours on their pages
(ck) we are missing 2 votes
(shadrak) 1 or 2 is fine with me.  NOT 3
(sal) no...because i've apparently 
   missed something...
(ingo) isn't frames a part of the next 
   assignment anyway
(Tina) if we use the image map, we're 
   going to have to find a colour that 
   works on all pages
) ingo, you do not have to use them
(e-less) how about frames if needed - 
   onlyis=f ontent would benefit from 
   frames we decide case by case basis - 
   not blanket for evermore
(ck) ones, are it unless a non-voter has 
   an objection
) wait how did you  count that
(e-less) what was 1?
) one was image map
(Tina) 1 is the map
(ck) 1=image map
(sal) are you talking about the main 
   page?
(ck) anne demands a recount
) only if we be one that will work for 
  everyone
(sal) or what...
(Tina) no, on the main header page, we 
   don't need a map or anything else
) the same map in a different color 
  would still be consisistant
(flamingo) I agree Tina
) tina, that is what identifies it for 
  the other pages tho maybe
(shadrak) We're talking about everyone's 
   "first page" I think.
(ck) Tina, maybe we will try to redo a 
   map later to match colors
) oh k, first page is important
(Tina) ck, I think it'll have to be a 
   basic colour like black
(Tina) I mean my text is purple
(sal) shoot..i don't care...this bears 
   no resemblance to anything i'll ever 
   do, anyway...
(Tina) flamingo's is different colours
(ck) yes black should work
) anne likes navy better if you use navy 
  text tho
(ck) maybe transparent map with black 
   letters
(ck) or navy
(e-less) why don't we all try what we 
   like - put it p and then vote?
(Tina) a transparent map would be just 
   like using text though
(Tina) e-less, that's a good idea
(ck) not really
) flamingo, text colors you chose as 
  links should show up in a text link 
  tho, don't you think as they have to 
  show up on your wall
) but actually, yours is all titles on 
  that page
(flamingo) I think that most dark and 
   bright colors will show up on my main 
   page.
) and education has not really decided 
  on a backgroun yet
) i like using a form of the button for 
  each section somewhere on the page too
(flamingo) Anne, there will be some 
   graphics there soon.
(flamingo) I have a link back to the 
   main Societal page on each of my 
   pages.
) and that seems enought flamingo
) you do not need each section as it 
  would be confusing
) you want them to keep reading teen 
  article
(flamingo) I agree
(ck) maybe we could do to, one dark 
   letters, one light colors but same 
   font
) sounds like a good compromise ck
) then folks can color harmonzie what is 
  best
(e-less) why not incorporate the log for 
   cosnistency and then use whatever 
   colors we like?
(e-less) log=logo
(shadrak) Well ladies and Ingo, time for 
   dinner here in so. calif.
) thanks shad, see ya later
(flamingo) seeya shad!
(ck) later shad
(sal) take care, shad
(ingo) see ya, shad
(e-less) thaks shadrak
(Liz) bye shad
(shadrak) email me with what you decide 
   anne
* shadrak says TTYL
*** shadrak (irwin@irwin.pacificnet.net) 
has left #societal
) i am not sure what we decided anyway 
  as we will just have to play with it 
  and see what works
) did everyone see that tina made a 
  smaller logo that mite fit better
) i renamed it to logosm.gif on homework 
  page
(ck) oh great
(ck) oh, gotta look
) and tina has it in survivors article
(flamingo) I think that we decided on an 
   image map and we can work with the 
   colors when everyone picks their 
   background for their main page.
) i made it a button on lesson3.html 
  changing cellspacing=2
(ingo) good
) k what is it to use if we just link to 
  homepage on inside pages then
) it looked nice the way you had it 
  matching your font for teens flamingo
) so maybe that can be what looks best 
  with how are linking inside pages
(flamingo) I think that everyone will do 
   what is best for their pages after 
   the main page
) k sounds good to me
(ingo) i just feel there sould be 
   something common to all pages
) the size of the new logo is width=35 
  height=36
(sal) me too, ingo
) except we all know teens are different 
  and agreed with flamingo to use what 
  is best for them
(e-less) yeah - the logo - we use it 
   somehow
) the others should have something a bit 
  in common so it looks like part of 
  societal group
) it can just be a logo, or can be a 
  link somehow
(flamingo) I think that everyone is 
   going to have different colors and 
   backgrounds
(e-less) whether sideways or across to 
   or a ssimgle image - but use it 
   whichever way
) sounds fine to me e-less, 
(Tina) anne
(e-less) so - we agree to use logo for 
   stylistic consistency?
) did anyone figure out the best way to 
  make more spacing in the table ingo 
  did and what e-less used for homework 
  page
(Tina) http://cqws.com/users/zoso/societa
   l/survive.html 
) chris, maybe you could take a better 
  look later when you have time
(flamingo) What happened to the vote for 
   an image map... I'm confused...
) image map goes on main pages flamingo
) which colors will be decided when we 
  see how to tie it together
) then on other pages from the sections, 
  can just have a logo to tie it together
) text links are an option to those who 
  want that
) am i summarizing that correctly???
) tina, maybe you could try the imagemap 
  in black so folks can see it
-) [anne] PING
) i am lagging, hope someone else has 
  the log of what i am missing here
(Tina) take a look to see if how you 
   like the top of the page here
(ck) ok anne
(e-less) spacing must be a way to fix 
   with tables that I don't know how to 
   do 
(flamingo) What are we looking at Tina
(e-less) I use wordperfect 7 and it 
   looks great when saved to barista 
   ?anyone else using that?
(Tina) oh flamingo, I put that button on 
   the top of my page and used text 
   instead of image map
(Tina) no
* flamingo says that there is one tiny 
  problem with that ... Tina, you didn't 
  put the name the correct way on the 
  button for teen/children's concerns
(Tina) flamingo I know, I couldn't fit 
   it the other way
(Liz) i'm gonna sign off.  its past my 
   bedtime
(ck) anne, just to make sure, what am I 
   looking at?
(flamingo) seeya Liz
(sal) take care
(ingo) bye liz
(e-less) bye liz
(Liz) nighty nite!!!
*** Liz (~locuse@customs411.ipass.net) 
has left #societal
(sal) i'm going, too...see y'all later
*** sal (~xxxx@206.65.167.11) has left 
#societal
) ck i just saw your question
) i am not sure what you meant by where 
  you are looking
(Tina) oh well
(Tina) I don't think we'll ever agree on 
   everything
) oh we will eventually i am sure
(Tina) I don't know ;)
(e-less) no I thinkwe jsut aren't sure 
   what we're talking about
(Tina) I don't want to use the image map 
   lol
(flamingo) Why not Tina?
) then you should not have to use it if 
  can make it look tied together someway 
  else
(flamingo) I agree anne
(e-less) yes - use logo
(Tina) flamingo, I just think it'll take 
   away
(Tina) and now that I look at my page I 
   don't like the that pic either :b 
   *sigh* I'm onery tonight ;)
(flamingo) I understand what you are 
   saying. I feel the same way about my 
   pages.
(e-less) me even worse
) hey e-less you are doing great, you 
  not only have a homepage address to 
  add to your house on the working page
(flamingo) What may look great on 
   someone else's page may totally bomb 
   my pages.
) you can look to see how to link it 
  from the way others are done and 
  substitute your homepage address in 
  work.html
(ck) so, anyway anne, you said "chris, 
   maybe you could take a better look 
   later when you have time"
(e-less) but you are talking about the 
   bar acroos the top - the image map - 
   if we can fnd a way of using logo in 
   that for xconsistency - isn't that ok?
(ck) and I was talking with my mother-in-
   law at the same time
) oh look at lesson3.html and the top 
  two links are to ingo's and e-less 
  options for homework which are both in 
  a table
(e-less) thanks for all your kind 
   encouragement - e-with - do wyou want 
   me to keep on working on it - I was 
   going to add a link tomorrow - do you 
   think we have a working plan? the 
   last challenge?
(flamingo) Tina, I think that you are 
   running into some of the same 
   problems that I am having. You have a 
   certain look to your page and one 
   graphic could change that whole look.
(Tina)  flamingo, I know and I luv your 
   pages
) could you check the table code
(e-less) who me?
) and maybe email us a suggestion on how 
  to space it
(ck) so the challenge is to find an 
   innoculus graphic, logo or emap
) i am talking about ck doing that
(e-less) yes- I thin it needs table help
) more important is getting the content 
  for our pages going tho
(flamingo) thanks tina, I really like 
   what you are doing too. We each have 
   a different mood that we are trying 
   to set.
(Tina) flamingo :)
(ck) ok anne, I can do that, now that I 
   know all about single-pixel transparen
   t images ;)
) flamingo, were you ready to make the 
  link to your actual teen article
) that is what i thought ck
(Tina) ck, I used your single-pixel to 
   indent my paragraphs, it is a cool 
   trick 
(ck) Yes, anne, I totally agree, maybe 
   we should put off the whole linking 
   issue for a while, and start to have 
   fun with our individual pages
) so that as we are doing the text 
  menus, can refer to that instead of 
  the work.html teen mission
(flamingo) Anne, I would like to fix my 
   text over the border problem first.
) it really looks good what you have
) k flamingo, write when you are ready
) tina, i noticed too you used the 
  single pixel ;)
(flamingo) anne, hopefully, in one or 
   two days
(Tina) anne, yeah, I really like it
(ck) thanks to our teachers for making 
   us look into it (but anne already 
   knew about it)
) chris, what is the advantage over 
  using the hardspaces to indent
) ck, that is only cause you told me 
  about it at buffnet earlier and i 
  added the reference to my 821 resources
(ck) not much, for indenting a few spaces
) and sal used it, in her online 
  refrigerator, i had to ask her what it 
  was
(Tina) well folks, it's almost my bed 
   time
) lateron she took it out
(ck) but better for arranging a page by 
   pixels
) nite tina, thanks 
(Tina) night guys
(ingo) nite tina
(ck) yea me too
*** Tina (tatyana@stjhts15c23.nbnet.nb.ca
) has left #societal
(flamingo) seeya, tina
) so e-less is going to continue working 
  on the homework presentation
(flamingo) Well, I'm off to bed too. 
   Seeya!
) write when you have stuff or want us 
  to add or look at it e-less
(ck) it is really neat what ingo et al 
   did with the border
(e-less) do you want me to?
(ingo) thanks chris
(ck) e-less, I will try to give some 
   input on spacing 
) i am keeping lesson3.html so that we 
  have all the links to everywhere and i 
  like it
) and then we can highlight the main one 
  we are using
(flamingo) Good night all!
) nite flamingo
(ingo) nite flam ingo
(ck) nite flam ingo
(ck) lol ingo
(flamingo) lol
(flamingo) seeya
*** flamingo has quit IRC (Leaving)
) i like historical development anyway 
  and love shadrak's background and 
  flamingo's title from the first version
) then it is better to see the way ingo 
  and e-less are doing it
(e-less) thank you thank you - I need 
   some more links for what was decided 
   nite to all thos who left while I ws 
   ttyping
(ck) This is very different from the oz 
   pages where we all had to conform 
   with that awlful yellow brick 
   background
) e-less, your single image shows us the 
  good reason for using tiled in 
  backgrounds doesn it
(ck) that was a challenge
) it is so much bigger and takes a long 
  time to load a single image over the 
  tiles ones for background
(e-less) but the damn text kept changin 
   every tiem I loaded t
) ck i bet it was a challenge
) but sal is wishing we all had the same 
  to look more coordinated
(e-less) not for homework pages though?
(ck) well, I think we can come up with a 
   logo or map that will do it
) i think the class is mainly so that we 
  learn more how to do things that we 
  want to learn about than worrying 
  about everything else
(ck) hear hear!
) homework page can be whatever way it 
  turns out, LOL
(e-less) you are so right anne - I've 
   learned so much already despite myself
) i knew that is why we not have done 
  you any favors my uploading your stuff 
  e-less
(ck) I thought it must have been fun to 
   develop the homework page that I 
   didn't understand shad's letter
) you only learn by tackling that 
  geocities filemanager
) and it helps when you have files you 
  did yourself to try first
) later on you will be able to edit the 
  other pages
(e-less) actually - i wanted to add link 
   to my pages on the homework page but 
   missed my slot - will try tomorrow
(ck) I always miss my slot
) i think several of us felt that we had 
  learned what we needed to learn, did 
  not want to have to take extra time to 
  write everything up
) e-less, i already added them in my 
  time slot ;)
) take a look at how i did it and email 
  if you want me to change it
) we can do editing at 11pm when we are 
  chatting at buffnet and not worry 
  about bumping into someone else
) this way the link is there, if you 
  make changes on your single.htm or 
  tiles.htm, they will still show up as 
  you have them on your own site
(e-less) oh - thanks - you aere so good 
   - where do you find time?
(ingo) I think it's wise to try all 
   links before you let people know what 
   you did - I learned it the hard way :)
(ck) anne, thanks so much for the e-mail 
   about netscape pallette, I really 
   needed that info
(ck) me too ingo
) hahahaha, ingo, i just assumed you 
  knew it, and that they would be ok 
  when you uploaded it to geocities
(ingo) another suggestion is to flush 
   your cache when you try out ne pages 
   - so the pics don't get loaded from 
   chache
) you did not realize why i was saying 
  that
) lol, ingo and i both did that one 
  e-less
(e-less) you can walk and chew gum at 
   the same time - I can't single minded 
   me - 11pm PST or EST
) e-less, email to folks to make the 
  change on their shift
(ck) good point ingo
) it is fine when it is just a line
) and i must admit, i still sneak in at 
  off times and change stuff quick
) go look at lesson3.html from societal 
  link to homework e-less, see if i 
  added your lines ok then
) afraid i am a nite owl, once i get 
  started
(ck) anne knows that I always do that, 
   email I mean
(ingo) What I learned is save the file 
   to the PC, make the changes and 
   upload it back
(ingo) Is a lot faster and easier than 
   making changes on-line
) i agree ingo
) especially when it is more complicated 
  stuff to look at
) but i just keep the file the way i had 
  it, and make changes
(ck) and the best part is that you get a 
   backup of the original, in case you 
   mess up
) when i started it
) true
(ingo) Anne, when I uploaded I just 
   wanted some feedback before telling 
   everyone - especially I did'n want to 
   step on any toes :)
) lol that is ture
) true
* anne tells the world!
) but it helps if everyone can then look 
  at it
) when it is done
) and it gave e-less an idea how to keep 
  going to organize her ideas too
) ck, shadrak did not everyone to go 
  crazy with homework when we have 
  already done and talked about 
  everything
) shoot, lagging again and can't see 
  answers
(ck) ture is valley talk....ture, man
(ck) oops, I mean valley-girl talk
(ingo) forgiven
(e-less) thnaks to all of you - my dogs 
   are telling me it's time to go - ever 
   try to operate  amouse with a big 
   black nose pushng your elbow up to 
   the ceiling?
(ingo) nite e-less
(ck) I know that feeling e-less
(e-less) thanks Ann+e will check the 
   page ate ron = can't do it at same 
   time
(ck) they can figure out how to 
   interrupt, can't they
(e-less) nite all
) k bye
) lol
(ck) ok, me too, this time for real, see 
   ya all next week
) byw chris
(ingo) see yea
) i will have to read the log to see 
  what the heck we decided ;)
(e-less) just saw the page ann+e - looks 
   really different - and soem things 
   need morte explaing but spacing needs 
   to be fixe - hope Chris can do 
   something
) which page, e-less
) i as talking about the ones you and 
  ingo did for spacing with tables
) which page for chris to look at e-less
) yours at heartland whatever number 
  home-les3.htm
) we need to add your homework to ingo's 
  version too
) i will try putting it in at the right 
  places if you would me to ingo
) here i go, no one can interrupt with 
  me lagging, LOL
(e-less) my page from your added link - 
   in ie3 
*** ck has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
(ingo) If I recall right - no spacing - 
   some consistency in lay-out use of 
   logo or image 3 and otherwise we're 
   on our own
(ingo) whatever fits best
(ingo) I meant no music - you guys 
   talked too much about spacing :)
) oh ok
(e-less) which version mine or Ingo's
) hahahaha
) no music on main societal page that is
(ingo) right, 
) both versions for chris to comment on 
  code
(ingo) k with  your adding of e-less link
) ok will do
(ingo) tks
(e-less) or lack thereof [as applies to 
   mine]
* anne is glad she is on vacation this 
  week ;)
) i will keep reading up on tables too 
  as that is what i really wanted to 
  learn about
(ingo) does that mean you can stay up 
   till 7 and play at the computer ?
(ingo) :)
) will going to bed a little earlier 
  than 7
(e-less) nite all - thanks again - I 
   staid home today - had fun all day 
   tisk - work tomorrow
) i will be in trouble with turning my 
  schedule around when i get back to 
  school ;(
) great e-less, it is fun to play hooky
) sometimes
) bye
(ingo) see yea
) see ya
Session Close: Mon Feb 17 22:28:01 1997

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