Log Societal Group: Mar 13, 1997 Java and JavaScript
Session Start: Thu Mar 13 20:20:32 1997 *** Now talking in #societal *** shadrak sets mode: +o anne [shadrak SOUND] (anne) hi (shadrak) Wish the ladies did! Flamingo sent me a letter of agreement (ingo) hi anne (anne) did what???? (shadrak) You're not her anne! (shadrak) here (shadrak) Agreed with my decision on Fredrik (anne) boy is saving slow at geo (ingo) we're discussing frederick's fate in the group (anne) i agree he should not appear on the page (anne) doesn't matter if on email or not I guess (shadrak) I finally gave up on trying to upload to geo and put my java applet on my pacificnet site. (ingo) I agree with shad - we never got a word / feedback / input from him (anne) oh i saw that irwin, thanks for linking it *** flamingo (flamingo@ad79-250.compuserv e.com) has joined #societal *** shadrak sets mode: +o flamingo (shadrak) hi flamingo (anne) hi flamingo (ingo) hi flaming (flamingo) Hi everyone! (shadrak) hello birdie (ingo) flam (flamingo) Anne, you made it (flamingo) Hi ingo minus the flam... (ingo) I cannot spell my name anymore :( (shadrak) Sal wrote me that she is sick; sends apologies. (flamingo) hehehe (flamingo) Poor sal... :-( (anne) oh she did not stay long last night either as she was sick (ingo) she was complaining last night already (anne) flamingo, decided to go tomorrow or saturday instead after i got home (shadrak) anne, when you put the challenge 5 stuff on a page, you needed to change the ( and ) to < and > (ingo) was that the case the day before yesterday (anne) i added the challenge numbers to homework and made your definitions a file shadrak as a link (shadrak) I might go change it someday when geo is a bit faster. *** Tatyana (tatyana@stjhts03c11.nbnet.nb .ca) has joined #societal (flamingo) Hi tina! (Tatyana) hi (ingo) hi tina *** shadrak sets mode: +o Tatyana (anne) shad, i just am not sure where you mean, i am in the editor right now and can change it (anne) hi tina *** ck (~emeraldCi@ts3-189.pacific.net) has joined #societal (shadrak) where I talk about (APPLET)..(/ APPLET) *** shadrak sets mode: +o ck (shadrak) hi ck (anne) oh ok (ck) hello all (flamingo) Hi chris (ck) thanks for the challenge defs shadrak (ingo) Hi chris (shadrak) hi tina and chris (shadrak) don't forget anne (anne) i will remember as i uploaded that file (ck) oh yes, thanks to u 2, anne (shadrak) I meant ck should not forget your contribution. (anne) i put those codes on our links825.html so we could copy and paste them to, i can never remember them (anne) hi ck (shadrak) anne do you know the math symbols "( less than (lt)" and ") greater than (gt)"? just add an ampersand in front and a semicolon in back (shadrak) We're missing liz, anyone else? (ck) sal? (ingo) e-less (shadrak) Is she still with us? (shadrak) sal is ill ck (ingo) don't know (anne) it is uploading now (anne) i know shad, i still have to think it out tho (anne) i wonder if e-less got the email (anne) or checked it (ingo) did liz respond to your post (shadrak) no (ck) people who don't get their email at work won't know about it until they get home *** shadrak changes topic to "Why use Java and JacvaScript" *** shadrak changes topic to "Why use Java and JavaScript" (anne) oh that is a good reason to put on both addresses when a message like that goes out then (ck) CAUSE IT IS FUN (anne) hahaha (ingo) it's a gimmick (shadrak) I sent the darn thing early yesterday; damn system screwed me up/ (ck) oh, i just got it this afternoon (ck) almost as bad as snail mail (anne) it solved a problem on how to give folks choices to listen to music in both Netscape and MSIE (ingo) I got it this morning before I went to work (shadrak) I need Java to allow me to access databases on my server without using CGI. (ingo) how anne (ck) Ingo, to answer your question, if you want to require a password to get to your page, you can use JavaScript to do it (flamingo) I think that there are good points and bad points to Java/ Java Script... It depends on what you are trying to do and what your target audience is... (shadrak) I have used JavaScript to differentiate among browsers in order to generate different HTML for each. (anne) irwin used the script for the code in netscape or msie to play midis and also made it clickable to turn on or off (ingo) ck, I know and I agree there are some good points to it but when I saw the 'lake' I felt like (ck) You can do educational stuff, such as ask questions and pose responses (ingo) eating my supper again (Tatyana) I think javascript is probably more practical for pages than java in terms of people being able to see stuff.... Like at the company I work for... we can see javascript but not java... that's almost 1500 employees (ck) heehee (ck) eye candy (anne) and I cannot see java either as I still do not choose to use win95 (shadrak) Are there any recorded security breaches due to Java? (ck) anne, after the day I had to day, I would have to say you are very smart (anne) at school all are computers in each classroom are win 3.11 also and cannot view java (Tatyana) yes our company still uses 3.11 (ck) MSIE used to claim activeX were more secure than javascript ;) (anne) i was reading somewhere today that with increased bandwitch someday, that java will not be used either (ingo) right Anne, I checked some pages at work today - win 3.1 4 meg etc. and it was unbelievable how slow it was (anne) and ghatten had put some java on a webpage of hers and it took forever to load too, she moved it to an inside page (ck) Java is better for intranets (anne) why ck? (shadrak) Why does increaed banwidth affect use of Java Anne? (Tatyana) not our intranet ck as we don't use win95 so can't see it (anne) i did not understand the point they made irwin (ck) for programs to be used by company employees (ingo) I assume that some of the Java stuff will create even more frustratio n due to lack of speed on those older machines (anne) let me go find where i saw it, brb *** Shadowdan (~nakia@chil12-cs-13.dial.b right.net) has joined #societal (ck) let me rephrase: java is good for companies with intranets, isdn and not win3.1 (Tatyana) yep (anne) i have found that i am getting more defragged files when i have gone to javascript and java pages in win 3.11 too *** Shadowdan (~nakia@chil12-cs-13.dial.b right.net) has left #societal (shadrak) shadowdan this is a private meeting. (Tatyana) infact, we use netscape but run everything throug lotusnotes and domino (-- which I hate *** shadrak sets mode: +s (ck) I came across a sight that gave example java programs, but their programs did little nasties (on purpose? I really don't know) (flamingo) After I had gone to several Java sites today my computer locked up :-( (shadrak) what kind of nasties chris? (ck) The web page did absoutely nothing, but when I shut down netscape, it started printing colors all over my screen (Tatyana) did anyone go see that java applet called the lake? (anne) the applets now show in the definitions (Tatyana) I really liekd it (ck) Yes, very pretty (anne) bec says that java can tear up her browser (flamingo) I saw it Tina and I was impressed (shadrak) pretty but useless. (ck) well, yes, you could say it had no socially redemable value (ingo) I gave my response earlier - felt like re-eating my supper (shadrak) Java support by the browsers leaves a lot to be desired. (flamingo) heheheh: Ingo (ck) but is was pleasant to look at (ingo) nice gimmick but nothing more (shadrak) How about using JAvaScript (hereafter abbreviated as JS) to check form input? That's useful. (ingo) definitely (ck) yes, like the password I was talking about, or educational pages with answers and responses (ingo) I would like to see something like a test with automated response (flamingo) I like some of the JS stuff that I have seen... liked what sal did with the quotes (ingo) and that, I assume could be done with JS, right (flamingo) also liked tina's drop down menu (anne) security issues addressed (anne) Because of the extremely open and public nature of the World Wide Web, security is a major issue (anne) for Java and Java applets. After all, allowing application code from unknown remote machines to be (anne) downloaded and executed on your computer system is potentially dangerous. Not only is there (anne) potential for applets to contain viruses, but they could simply be malicious applications intent on (anne) destroying your data and rendering your computer inoperable. (anne) sorry too much at once, but this was from http://www.mcp.com/sams/books/ 195-5/tjs01.htm -) [anne] PING (shadrak) But Java )supposedly) precludes the applet from writing on the user's disks (or even reading) (anne) right i know i have seen that it does not (anne) they talked about what they did to prevent the bad stuff from happening (shadrak) Does that site list any cases of applets breaching security? (anne) i liked tina's menu's choices with JS but her own back buttons prettier that the JS one (ck) ok, then how does geo cities upload files from our disk drive? (shadrak) don't think they use Java ck. (anne) and it is something we know that we are doing to upload (shadrak) my guess is that they're using an FTP engine. (anne) it seems to me just like a mini ftp program with the geocities utilities -) [anne] PING (ck) sorry guys but something has come up, bbl (i hope) *** ck has quit IRC (EOF From client) (shadrak) I think we've covered the first challenge reasonably well. On to #2? (shadrak) I think we've covered #2 as well. On to #3? *** Tatyana has quit IRC (Ping timeout) (shadrak) Good pings from you three! (anne) did we add about the plug-ins to JS (ingo) DIdn't we do that as well (shadrak) yep. #4? (anne) we did not really say where we would chose JS over J (anne) and vice versa either (shadrak) I would use JAva when I need to get to a database. (shadrak) Need CGI to do it with JS (ingo) question here is up to what size is it feasable (shadrak) I think Java is also probably better at animation and truly interactive stuff (like games) (ingo) If I had a questinnaire with 50 or more fields - would java still be a choice (shadrak) dunno ingo (flamingo) I think that a lot of people use Java to put a game on their site to pull people there. (shadrak) I think the more important point is that too few users have Java capable browsers,. (ingo) animation I agree with you, shad see at the 'lake' (flamingo) I agree shad (ingo) now on one side I feel we should not consider that there might be people using (shadrak) An many with Java capable browsers have the capability disabled out of fear of security breaches. (ingo) ancient machines to hold back - rather for the people who have top of the line machines (anne) that is why bec did not see irwin's government info at first and wondered what was wrong with it (anne) and then he added the message about it after she inquired (ingo) on the other side I see the frustration of not being able to 'use' a page because of some advanced programming (ingo) catch 22, I guess (anne) even with JS, we would need to be sure there was not another way of doing it as folks still browsers that do not support JS also (ingo) rite, anne (flamingo) I think that it all goes back to what group of people are your targeting for your web page (anne) counselor was going to test our what happened in lynx browser with JS (shadrak) It's easy to tell the user that Java must be enabled, and in NS3, as soon as they enable the applet is loaded. But to rquire them to run Java when you are soliciting information from them is a bit much. (anne) that is a good point shad (flamingo) If you are targeting middle to lower income people then they probably can't view Java (ingo) If we look at who we want to reach - java / js may not be the right choice (shadrak) I'm targeting high end people (like bec) who are afraid to run Java. (anne) i would not agree with that necessarily flamingo, newer computers are cheaper now so some mite be getting them and they would usually get win95 on a pc with it (shadrak) telephone (anne) bec did say she really should be more concerned about cookies than java and did go to see the lake site when i told her about it (ingo) but looking at institutions - how fast are they to upgrade their hardware - and at times software (anne) but there are also a lot of folks who would not have it too (anne) right ingo, our school district is upgrading a few systems for win95 cause of programs they want to use that require 32 bit (ingo) that's rite (shadrak) Damn salesmen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! (ingo) we're still running - for whatever reason - NS2.02 :( (anne) but it is also expensive to upgrade the machines they have to allow them to access the Internet, and they are not even upgrading software (anne) just memory upgrades (flamingo) I know that most of the computers where I work can't view Java (shadrak) brb (ingo) not that easy with the mem upgrades (anne) ingo, most of our computers for secretaries and administrators still have ns 2. also (anne) right shad, i do not know what else they are doing (ingo) ? (anne) or ingo i meant (shadrak) imb (shadrak) If I were an installation manager, I'm not sure I would let my people run with Java enabled. (ingo) whoever makes decisions at our college - they'r quite reluctant to change (anne) i will post the log so we can see if we covered everything, then folks can write with lines to add to however puts it together (ingo) understandably if money is involved , I guess (flamingo) Now, if I was in a business that knew that my customer had high level computers then I would fill it with Java (anne) shad, i still am not sure why you are saying that about not allowing to run java enabled (ingo) but flam, the question is how many potential customers will you not reach using java (shadrak) I'd worry about security given what I read in the papers. (anne) ok (flamingo) I agree... I know a lot of people have told me that it bothers them to not be able to see the Java (shadrak) On to challenge #3..have we selected a tutorial? (anne) when people see it just to see it, does the novelty wear off unless it reallyu serves a purpose (anne) i started with the one you gave us irwin from netscape and the one suggested by leapin (ingo) shad, I think the page where does java fit in might do it (anne) has someone found a better one (shadrak) Which of the two are you using Anne? (flamingo) I've been looking at a lot of tutorials and I have no idea which is best. (flamingo) Tell me one to do and I will do it (shadrak) I think the one leapin suggested is not done? (anne) http://www.star.net/people/~robyou ng/javatour.htm (shadrak) robyoung is incomplete. (anne) that is the one that i am finding easier to understand (anne) oh that is too bad (anne) but it does give you the idea of what to do (shadrak) yep (anne) so that mite make it easier to understand another tutorial to fill in where it stops (shadrak) We're supposed to ask questions of the group if there is something we don't understand. Anee asked me about indexes. Does that complete this challenge? (anne) JavaScript Tutorial by Voodoo http://rummelplatz.uni-mannheim.de/~skoch/js/script.htm is being revised so is not done (anne) i like the discussion of JS and Java comparisons in the first reference that was a book online for only 45 days, have not seen if it is tutorial (anne) is that the tutorial others have looked at (flamingo) I looked at that today anne, it is long (anne) i imagine more will come up as we get into more and we know to ask *** ck (~emeraldCi@ts4-212.pacific.net) has joined #societal *** shadrak sets mode: +o ck (shadrak) hi ck (shadrak) Hey, we've covered 5 and 6, so We're about done? (anne) oh and remember ck got an idea how to change her example when she read things in a graphics tutorial (ck) oh, good timing on my part (flamingo) Anne, do you think that the tutorial you have been using is easier than the others... if so let's use that * anne says easy is all relative (anne) the netscape site is a good reference to look up topics later * flamingo thinks that JS and Java is a class of its own (anne) like when i wanted to change the color of the font on the script that updates our homework * shadrak says hallelujah (anne) from what everyone has posted we are getting a better idea of how to modify what already exists (anne) hjahahahaha (anne) my favorite js so far is the update one so we always know when someone made a change, folks forget to change the date by hand (ck) yes, that is nice (anne) in terms of practical, but not the most fun one (flamingo) I will do a few practice pages this weekend on JS just to play around.... I do have some JS on a page that I did for the Blues web page that I do (anne) oh good, flamingo, make a link then (flamingo) k (anne) do we want to split some of the examples everyone made to go under challenge 2 to demonstrate what it is used for and keep some under challenge 3 (anne) we have to discuss why we selected scripts we did somewhere too (ck) I am still trying to come up with javascript for our health page (ingo) I think the update one is obvious and does not require any in depth discussion (flamingo) I think that I may put that info right on the JS practice page that I do anne (anne) k good idea (anne) and shad explained the teaching function for his which i put under challenge 6 for now (anne) everyone just put your stuff where you think it goes, and can change wording for the challenges too (anne) shad put up the tictac toe java game (flamingo) Shad has been great about all of the Java / Javascript stuff ... thanks (anne) for sure double thanks (shadrak) De nada (ck) triple thanks (shadrak) muchisimo de nadas (anne) tee-hee (ingo) what comes after tripple - multo (ingo) thanks (shadrak) you're welcome (shadrak) sounds Italian ingo. (ingo) I knew there was something wrong with my spanish :( * shadrak says hahaha! (anne) you know the sentences in the links really describe why people chose what they did too (shadrak) Are we done? I want to watch the March Madness! (anne) hahaha (anne) just challenge 4 on writing a script (anne) and there is not enough time to do that now (ingo) what's about challenge 6 (anne) that is done (flamingo) Can we do C 4 on Monday (ingo) must have been asleep (ck) WHich tutorial are we reading? (anne) i moved shad's original message to us there (shadrak) We have lots of examples for challenge 4 (anne) http://www.star.net/people/~robyou ng/javatour.htm (anne) javascript for the total non-programmer (ck) thanx (anne) shad said that it mite not be finished yet, but it seems a good start (shadrak) what's a total non-programmer? It's a very good start. (anne) that is the one leapin felt was best for beginners * anne only tried apple basic, count myself as a non-programmer (flamingo) Sounds good to me... then we can talk about Chall. 4 (ingo) k with me (ck) isn't #4 to explain how we did it? (anne) i meant shad, if it does not cover something in that tutorial, we will find another source (anne) ck, 4 is trying to write a javascript ourselves, LOL (anne) i put the challenge numbers and short description on lesson8.html link (ck) thanx anne (anne) look to see if anyone has better suggestions so we know which is what if it is not clear (flamingo) Anne does a great job of keeping us all organized... thanks (shadrak) As a team we have written a number of basic scripts, which is one of the things called for. We have not indicated a lack of understanding of the tutrials (few questions). (ck) double thanx (ingo) how would we have survived without anne (flamingo) Shad, I don't think that I know enough to ask questions (shadrak) we couldn't (anne) maybe e-less' method of jump links to the log is best idea (ck) oh, when I said #4 I shouda said #6 (anne) that only asked a leader to come forth to teach (shadrak) AMEN (anne) shad's letter shows that he did with the examples he made (anne) and ck showed how she modified what she started (ck) I should send my failures to shad and ask why they didn't work (flamingo) Shad has been a wonderful leader... yes! # 6 is done (shadrak) In the beginning I created the script and it was good. (ck) heehee (anne) hahahaha (ck) wow, cool colors on http://www.geoci ties.com/Heartland/Plains/1238/five.ht ml (ingo) well said, shad (anne) some of the existing scripts did not use the comments to hide the JS from older or js challenged browsers (shadrak) ck, if you're having problems email me and I'll look at the stuff. (anne) oh ck, thanks ;) (ingo) shad, kill one i in positioniing (last paragraph) (ck) thanks shad, I am gonna take u up on that offer (anne) ooooh i put it up and did not spellcheck (ingo) tse tse (shadrak) ingo don't understand you. (shadrak) ok got it (anne) where is it that he is refering to shad (shadrak) very last paragraph (anne) which file tho (shadrak) chasllenge 5 (ingo) five.html (anne) or are you in five.html (anne) k (ingo) yea (shadrak) you got it (anne) who is fixing it?? (anne) or should i just upload it again (shadrak) we'll trust you anne (ingo) upload is faster, rithe (ingo) right (anne) i agree, will upload, then if anybody want to change, can edit it (anne) shad, you had talked about breaking apart the work.html (ck) we don't need the intro anymore, do we? (anne) yes we do (anne) that was the assignment for the first lesson (shadrak) Yes. I think the what why and how should be on one page and the who on another, both linked from the main page. (ingo) talking about the work page - could we use a client pull from the cover page to the work.html (anne) noooooo (shadrak) why do you want to do that ingo? (anne) those pull pages drive me nuts, cause you want to stop and read the first page (ck) that really is for the study group, and not for the casual visitor (anne) and can't ever stick (ck) the work page I mean (ingo) trying to pull everything together and apply it to the original assignment - intent of our page (anne) ingo, the end product is the result tho (ck) Q: if you were going to do research for a thesis, where is the first stop on the web you would go (besides societal and info pages of course)? (shadrak) what subject? (shadrak) One of the search engines of course, or perhaps the on-line libraries. (ingo) How would I find the page - key words (ck) on-line library? (ingo) where would those key-words direct me to with what weight factor (shadrak) There are loads of catalogs on-line and some content as well. (ck) ok but what would be your 'first stop', your favorite, best ever, place to go (ck) where do YOU start (anne) i like hotbot cause it gets words on a page too (shadrak) Again, depends on subject. * ck is writing Hot Bot (ingo) web ferret is a good start (ck) ck is writing Ferret (do you have a URL for that?) (anne) but you need the install the software for web ferret don't you (ingo) metacrawler would be another one\ (ingo) yea, it is a win95 program (anne) yes i like metacrawler as that is another all in one (ck) I am fishing for the 10 top pages for a college student to go to, to start research (shadrak) CARL Corporation, Deja News, IPL (the Internet Public Library) (anne) ck, what is your thesis topic? or this is general info to give someone where to start (ck) thanks shad (shadrak) Gotta go now. Nite all. (anne) ck, those area all listed in the infosources links from behind the scenes too (ingo) http://www.ferretsoft.com (ck) I found the librarians at the college library to be clueless about helping students do research via web (flamingo) seeya shad (anne) nite shad, thanks (ck) thanx ingo (ck) se ya shad (shadrak) Meeting on Monday? (anne) yes, sounds good (ingo) se yea shad (ck) They put the poor student in front of puter and say go to search engines (flamingo) I may be a little late on Monday (anne) oh and sal and i were supposed to write that article (shadrak) You decide and one of you write the letter. (ck) and of course the poor student types in keyword and gets 1000 hits (anne) flamingo, is another nite better for you * shadrak says TTYL (ingo) I might be late - will be out of town *** shadrak (irwin@irwin.pacificnet.net) has left #societal (anne) should we do tuesday then? (ingo) I should be back on time (flamingo) Next week I'm taking a required training with the school board so that I can get an Intern next year... I won't get home till 8:30 -9:00 (anne) k we are used to monday (anne) then let's change the day (ingo) k (ck) I have class tuesday from 6-9 (anne) cause shad usuallyl likes to eat earlier (anne) no tuesday then (flamingo) It is ok, I'll just be late on Monday * ck eats dinner while she chats in societal (anne) k (anne) me too (ingo) I will make it somehow * ck also burns dinner when trying to cook while being in #societal (anne) hahaha (flamingo) I've done that chris (ck) great minds cook alike? (flamingo) lol (anne) it's hard for me to do that in the microwave (ck) rofl anne (ck) flamingo, are you in Florida? (flamingo) yes, chris (ck) ok, so that is 5:30 to 6 my time (flamingo) yes (ck) so, is there anything I have to do for homework? (anne) i think we are done (ck) besides read the tutorial? (anne) just look at the log and add in ideas we mite have forgotten (flamingo) good night all... seeya on Monday! (anne) nite (ingo) I think we can start working on content again (ingo) nite flam *** flamingo (flamingo@ad79-250.compuserv e.com) has left #societal (ingo) anne, how do you read the time frame (anne) what do you mean? (ingo) we have four weeks beyond this weeks does that make it five weeks (anne) april 14th is the date (ck) ok, see ya all later (or see ya in an hour at the #campus-lounge (ingo) k (anne) k will come back *** ck has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer) (anne) let's meet soon for education too (ingo) k, when (anne) maybe sunday? (ingo) sounds ok to me - need to check with liz (anne) time of day? (ingo) the only restriction for me is between 11 and 12 am on sunday (ingo) waiting for a call from the in-laws from florida (anne) k let's let liz pick time, just not too early (anne) do you want to write to liz then (ingo) sure (anne) k see ya later (anne) oh and i did finish that sentence hahaha (anne) bye for now (ingo) will do it tonight (anne) thanks (anne) bye Session Close: Thu Mar 13 22:01:05 1997Back to log list
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