Session Start: Thu Mar 13 20:20:32 1997 *** Now talking in #societal (edited log) *** shadrak changes topic to "Why use Java and JavaScript" *** shadrak changes topic to "Why use Java and JavaScript" (ck) CAUSE IT IS FUN (anne) hahaha (ingo) it's a gimmick (anne) it solved a problem on how to give folks choices to listen to music in both Netscape and MSIE (shadrak) I need Java to allow me to access databases on my server without using CGI. (ingo) how anne (ck) Ingo, to answer your question, if you want to require a password to get to your page, you can use JavaScript to do it (flamingo) I think that there are good points and bad points to Java/ Java Script... It depends on what you are trying to do and what your target audience is... (shadrak) I have used JavaScript to differentiate among browsers in order to generate different HTML for each. (anne) irwin used the script for the code in netscape or msie to play midis and also made it clickable to turn on or off (ingo) ck, I know and I agree there are some good points to it but when I saw the 'lake' I felt like (ck) You can do educational stuff, such as ask questions and pose responses (ingo) eating my supper again (Tatyana) I think javascript is probably more practical for pages than java in terms of people being able to see stuff.... Like at the company I work for... we can see javascript but not java... that's almost 1500 employees (ck) heehee (ck) eye candy (anne) and I cannot see java either as I still do not choose to use win95 (shadrak) Are there any recorded security breaches due to Java? (ck) anne, after the day I had to day, I would have to say you are very smart (anne) at school all are computers in each classroom are win 3.11 also and cannot view java (Tatyana) yes our company still uses 3.11 (ck) MSIE used to claim activeX were more secure than javascript ;) (anne) i was reading somewhere today that with increased bandwith someday, that java will not be used either (ingo) right Anne, I checked some pages at work today - win 3.1 4 meg etc. and it was unbelievable how slow it was (anne) and ghatten had put some java on a webpage of hers and it took forever to load too, she moved it to an inside page (ck) Java is better for intranets (anne) why ck? (shadrak) Why does increased bandwidth affect use of Java Anne? (Tatyana) not our intranet ck as we don't use win95 so can't see it (anne) i did not understand the point they made irwin (ck) for programs to be used by company employees (ingo) I assume that some of the Java stuff will create even more frustration n due to lack of speed on those older machines (anne) let me go find where i saw it, brb (ck) let me rephrase: java is good for companies with intranets, isdn and not win3.1 (Tatyana) yep (anne) i have found that i am getting more defragged files when i have gone to javascript and java pages in win 3.11 too (Tatyana) infact, we use netscape but run everything through lotusnotes and domino (-- which I hate *** shadrak sets mode: +s (ck) I came across a sight that gave example java programs, but their programs did little nasties (on purpose? I really don't know) (flamingo) After I had gone to several Java sites today my computer locked up :-( (shadrak) what kind of nasties chris? (ck) The web page did absolutely nothing, but when I shut down netscape, it started printing colors all over my screen (Tatyana) did anyone go see that java applet called the lake? (anne) the applets now show in the definitions (Tatyana) I really liked it (ck) Yes, very pretty (anne) bec says that java can tear up her browser (flamingo) I saw it Tina and I was impressed (shadrak) pretty but useless. (ck) well, yes, you could say it had no socially redeemable value (ingo) I gave my response earlier - felt like re-eating my supper (shadrak) Java support by the browsers leaves a lot to be desired. (flamingo) heheheh: Ingo (ck) but is was pleasant to look at (ingo) nice gimmick but nothing more (shadrak) How about using JavaScript (hereafter abbreviated as JS) to check form input? That's useful. (ingo) definitely (ck) yes, like the password I was talking about, or educational pages with answers and responses (ingo) I would like to see something like a test with automated response (flamingo) I like some of the JS stuff that I have seen... liked what sal did with the quotes (ingo) and that, I assume could be done with JS, right (flamingo) also liked tina's drop down menu (anne) security issues addressed (anne) Because of the extremely open and public nature of the World Wide Web, security is a major issue (anne) for Java and Java applets. After all, allowing application code from unknown remote machines to be (anne) downloaded and executed on your computer system is potentially dangerous. Not only is there (anne) potential for applets to contain viruses, but they could simply be malicious applications intent on (anne) destroying your data and rendering your computer inoperable. (anne) sorry too much at once, but this was from http://www.mcp.com/sams/books/ 195-5/tjs01.htm -) [anne] PING (shadrak) But Java )supposedly) precludes the applet from writing on the user's disks (or even reading) (anne) right i know i have seen that it does not (anne) they talked about what they did to prevent the bad stuff from happening (shadrak) Does that site list any cases of applets breaching security? (anne) i liked tina's menu's choices with JS but her own back buttons or links are prettier than that JS one (ck) ok, then how does geo cities upload files from our disk drive? (shadrak) don't think they use Java ck. (anne) and it is something we know that we are doing to upload (shadrak) my guess is that they're using an FTP engine. (anne) it seems to me just like a mini ftp program with the geocities utilities -) [anne] PING (ck) sorry guys but something has come up, bbl (i hope) *** ck has quit IRC (EOF From client) (shadrak) I think we've covered the first challenge reasonably well. On to #2? (shadrak) I think we've covered #2 as well. On to #3? *** Tatyana has quit IRC (Ping timeout) (shadrak) Good pings from you three! (anne) did we add about the plug-ins to JS (ingo) DIdn't we do that as well (shadrak) yep. #4? (anne) we did not really say where we would chose JS over J (anne) and vice versa either (shadrak) I would use JAva when I need to get to a database. (shadrak) Need CGI to do it with JS (ingo) question here is up to what size is it feasible (shadrak) I think Java is also probably better at animation and truly interactive stuff (like games) (ingo) If I had a questionnaire with 50 or more fields - would java still be a choice (shadrak) dunno ingo (flamingo) I think that a lot of people use Java to put a game on their site to pull people there. (shadrak) I think the more important point is that too few users have Java capable browsers,. (ingo) animation I agree with you, shad see at the 'lake' (flamingo) I agree shad (ingo) now on one side I feel we should not consider that there might be people using (shadrak) An many with Java capable browsers have the capability disabled out of fear of security breaches. (ingo) ancient machines to hold back - rather for the people who have top of the line machines (anne) that is why bec did not see irwin's government info at first and wondered what was wrong with it (anne) and then he added the message about it after she inquired (ingo) on the other side I see the frustration of not being able to 'use' a page because of some advanced programming (ingo) catch 22, I guess (anne) even with JS, we would need to be sure there was not another way of doing it as folks still use browsers that do not support JS also (ingo) rite, anne (flamingo) I think that it all goes back to what group of people are your targeting for your web page (anne) counselor was going to test out what happened in lynx browser with JS (shadrak) It's easy to tell the user that Java must be enabled, and in NS3, as soon as they enable the applet is loaded. But to require them to run Java when you are soliciting information from them is a bit much. (anne) that is a good point shad (flamingo) If you are targeting middle to lower income people then they probably can't view Java (ingo) If we look at who we want to reach - java / js may not be the right choice (shadrak) I'm targeting high end people (like bec) who are afraid to run Java. (anne) i would not agree with that necessarily flamingo, newer computers are cheaper now so some mite be getting them and they would usually get win95 on a pc with it (shadrak) telephone (anne) bec did say she really should be more concerned about cookies than java and did go to see the lake site when i told her about it (ingo) but looking at institutions - how fast are they to upgrade their hardware - and at times software (anne) but there are also a lot of folks who would not have it too (anne) right ingo, our school district is upgrading a few systems for win95 cause of programs they want to use that require 32 bit (ingo) that's rite (shadrak) Damn salesmen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (ingo) we're still running - for whatever reason - NS2.02 :( (anne) but it is also expensive to upgrade the machines they have to allow them to access the Internet, and they are not even upgrading software (anne) just memory upgrades (flamingo) I know that most of the computers where I work can't view Java (shadrak) brb (ingo) not that easy with the mem upgrades (anne) ingo, most of our computers for secretaries and administrators still have ns 2. also (anne) right shad, i do not know what else they are doing (ingo) ? (anne) or ingo i meant (shadrak) imb (shadrak) If I were an installation manager, I'm not sure I would let my people run with Java enabled. (ingo) whoever makes decisions at our college - they're quite reluctant to change (anne) i will post the log so we can see if we covered everything, then folks can write with lines to add to whoever puts it together (ingo) understandably if money is involved , I guess (flamingo) Now, if I was in a business that knew that my customer had high level computers then I would fill it with Java (anne) shad, i still am not sure why you are saying that about not allowing to run java enabled (ingo) but flame, the question is how many potential customers will you not reach using java (shadrak) I'd worry about security given what I read in the papers. (anne) ok (flamingo) I agree... I know a lot of people have told me that it bothers them to not be able to see the Java (shadrak) On to challenge #3..have we selected a tutorial? (anne) when people see it just to see it, does the novelty wear off unless it really serves a purpose (anne) i started with the one you gave us irwin from netscape and the one suggested by leapin (ingo) shad, I think the page where does java fit in might do it (anne) has someone found a better one (shadrak) Which of the two are you using Anne? (flamingo) I've been looking at a lot of tutorials and I have no idea which is best. (flamingo) Tell me one to do and I will do it (shadrak) I think the one leapin suggested is not done? (anne) http://www.star.net/people/~robyou ng/javatour.htm (shadrak) robyoung is incomplete. (anne) that is the one that i am finding easier to understand (anne) oh that is too bad (anne) but it does give you the idea of what to do (shadrak) yep (anne) so that mite make it easier to understand another tutorial to fill in where it stops (shadrak) We're supposed to ask questions of the group if there is something we don't understand. Anne asked me about indexes. Does that complete this challenge? (anne) JavaScript Tutorial by Voodoo http://rummelplatz.uni-mannheim.de/~skoch/js/script.htm is being revised so is not done (anne) i like the discussion of JS and Java comparisons in the first reference that was a book online for only 45 days, have not seen if it is tutorial (anne) is that the tutorial others have looked at (flamingo) I looked at that today anne, it is long (anne) i imagine more will come up as we get into more and we know to ask *** ck (~emeraldCi@ts4-212.pacific.net) has joined #societal *** shadrak sets mode: +o ck (shadrak) hi ck (shadrak) Hey, we've covered 5 and 6, so We're about done? (anne) oh and remember ck got an idea how to change her example when she read things in a graphics tutorial (ck) oh, good timing on my part (flamingo) Anne, do you think that the tutorial you have been using is easier than the others... if so let's use that * anne says easy is all relative (anne) the netscape site is a good reference to look up topics later * flamingo thinks that JS and Java is a class of its own (anne) like when i wanted to change the color of the font on the script that updates our homework * shadrak says hallelujah (anne) from what everyone has posted we are getting a better idea of how to modify what already exists (anne) my favorite js so far is the update one so we always know when someone made a change, folks forget to change the date by hand (ck) yes, that is nice (anne) in terms of practical, but not the most fun one (flamingo) I will do a few practice pages this weekend on JS just to play around.... I do have some JS on a page that I did for the Blues web page that I do (anne) oh good, flamingo, make a link then (flamingo) k (anne) do we want to split some of the examples everyone made to go under challenge 2 to demonstrate what it is used for and keep some under challenge 3 (anne) we have to discuss why we selected scripts we did somewhere too (ck) I am still trying to come up with javascript for our health page (ingo) I think the update one is obvious and does not require any in depth discussion (flamingo) I think that I may put that info right on the JS practice page that I do anne (anne) k good idea (anne) and shad explained the teaching function for his which i put under challenge 6 for now (anne) everyone just put your stuff where you think it goes, and can change wording for the challenges too (anne) shad put up the tictac toe java game (flamingo) Shad has been great about all of the Java / Javascript stuff ... thanks (anne) for sure double thanks (shadrak) De nada (ck) triple thanks (shadrak) muchisimo de nadas (anne) tee-hee (ingo) what comes after tripple - multo (ingo) thanks (shadrak) you're welcome (shadrak) sounds Italian ingo. (ingo) I knew there was something wrong with my spanish :( * shadrak says hahaha! (anne) you know the sentences in the links really describe why people chose what they did too (shadrak) Are we done? I want to watch the March Madness! (anne) hahaha (anne) just challenge 4 on writing a script (anne) and there is not enough time to do that now (ingo) what's about challenge 6 (anne) that is done (flamingo) Can we do C 4 on Monday (ingo) must have been asleep (ck) WHich tutorial are we reading? (anne) i moved shad's original message to us there (shadrak) We have lots of examples for challenge 4 (anne) http://www.star.net/people/~robyou ng/javatour.htm (anne) javascript for the total non-programmer (ck) thanx (anne) shad said that it mite not be finished yet, but it seems a good start (shadrak) what's a total non-programmer? It's a very good start. (anne) that is the one leapin felt was best for beginners * anne only tried apple basic, count myself as a non-programmer (flamingo) Sounds good to me... then we can talk about Chall. 4 (ingo) k with me (ck) isn't #4 to explain how we did it? (anne) i meant shad, if it does not cover something in that tutorial, we will find another source to supplement (anne) ck, 4 is trying to write a javascript ourselves, LOL (anne) i put the challenge numbers and short description on lesson8.html link