Session Start: Sat Jan 31 18:55:26 1998
*** Now talking in #webdesign

<Ghatten> Hi ya'll
<z-greta> hi
<z-penny1t> hello
<z-ShyLdy> HI Blossom and Ghatten
<z-Ro> Hi Ghatten
<z-Ro> Ghatten did you post the PSP tutorial sites or did I just miss them when I looked?
<z-javanut1> sorry .. turned off autos :)
<z-ShyLdy> hi rubea* z-anna1 says is there anyone here with experience in geocities
<Ghatten> Yes I posted them
<Ghatten> yes Lots of GeoCities experience
<z-greta> ghatten, where are they ?
<z-Ro> I was just going to ask that! < g>
<rubea> Not a question but a special thank you to VU and flamingo for    solving a perplexing HTML problem for me.
<flamingo> You are most welcome rubea :-)
<z-MCW> What is 'refresh directory' for at geocities?
<Blossom^> greta and Ro.......check your desk at the VU site.....you'll see it there.....PSP 
<Ghatten> Usually when you "refresh" it is like "reloading" a web page...it    shows you the most up to date version of what is in the directory to use
<Ghatten> rubea would you like to tell us what the problem and solution were
<z-Ro> I see it, thanks Ghatten.  I found a few the other night but not really have a lot of time to look properly
<z-> Yes, I was trying to link index.html to my second page index2.html
<z-> I had # before index2 and the link didn't work.
<techie> I have a question.
<Ghatten> ahhhh
<techie> Please explain "kick."
<Ghatten> Kick is one of the IRC ops commands
<Ghatten> it allows someone with OP status to "kick" someone out of a    room/channel if they misbehave
<Ghatten> Usually it is used sparingly
<techie> I saw this happen in Net 101 the other night.  Thanks.
<Ghatten> And only if someone  really acts up and doesn't respond to POLITE requests to stop the inappropriate behavior
<techie> Do we have a topic here?
<Ghatten> Yes, questions about the HTML lessons
<penny1t> do we take turns or should I jump in?
<techie> When I read CENTER code is going away, does that only apply in ALIGN or all applications?
<Ghatten> I guess we will get started---
<z-greta> can I ask something else
<Ghatten> Penny1t you will be next okay?
<Ghatten> Greta after Penny
<penny1t> ok
<Ghatten> and first Techie
<Ghatten> okay ya'll?
<Ghatten> First, tags which have been "deprecated" by the W3C are not "going away" any time soon
<Ghatten> Right now they are "backwards compatible"
<Ghatten> with older browsers...which is a good thing considering the rather odd support of HTML 4 so far
<techie> Define "deprecated"
<Ghatten> Deprecated 
<Ghatten> A deprecated element or attribute is one that has been outdated by newer constructs. Deprecated elements are defined
<Ghatten> in the reference manual in appropriate locations, but are clearly marked as deprecated. Deprecated elements may
<Ghatten> become obsolete in future versions of HTML. 
<Ghatten> User agents should continue to support deprecated elements for reasons of backward compatibility. 
<Ghatten> Definitions of elements and attributes clearly indicate which are deprecated. 
<Ghatten> This specification includes examples that illustrate how to avoid using deprecated elements. In most cases these depend
<Ghatten> on user agent support for style sheets. In general, authors should use style sheets to achieve stylistic and formatting
<Ghatten> effects rather than HTML presentational attributes. HTML presentational attributes have been deprecated when style
<Ghatten> sheet alternatives exist
<Ghatten> (NOTE USER AGENT=Browswer)
<Ghatten> That is the OFFICIAL W3c definition of Deprecated
<techie> Thank you for explaining, I'm still catching up on my reading.
<penny1t> I have two columns of text. How would I do this? Would I have to have a tablecode? or can I do right align
<Ghatten> LOL
<Ghatten> Hold on---
<Ghatten> I have NOT QUITE finished answering techie
<penny1t> sorry
<Ghatten> The answer is that the "ALIGN" attribute is also deprecated.
<Ghatten> S'okay
<Ghatten> Techie did that answer you?
<techie> Yes, I'll do more reading.
<Ghatten> okay
<Ghatten> Okay Penny.. <penny1t> I have two columns of text how could I do this. I got one with right align
<Ghatten> Using a table to set up two columns of text would be a solution  You can't have part of the text aligned one way and part another and have them line up on the two sides like columns
<penny1t> k thanks
<penny1t> better study tables
<Zonie> for a great FREE downloadable (study off line) set of tutorials on HTML, Tables, Forms, and Frames
<Zonie> http://junior.apk.net/~jbarta/tutor/makapage/index.html
<Ghatten> Greta you were next
<z-greta> Could there a possibility of making these classes earlier in the evening....it is difficult to be so concentrated and learn well at 10:30 pm EST !! (South Carolina) *S* 
<Ghatten> We have just set up another office hours session
<z-greta> oh really ??????? when ????
<Ghatten> 5:30-7:00 pm PST Tuesday night
<Zonie> that official ?
<z-Granny-Wicked> great ghatten
<Ghatten> yes, it should be posted later this weekend and it will go out in email sometime in the next couple of days
<z-greta> thanks.....and how is Otter's thumbnails getting along???
<z-Ro> that's a better time.  
<Ghatten> KYBelle do you have an HTML question for us?
<Ghatten> ok how about ruth any questions?
<Ghatten> Sharn do you have an HTML question?
<Ghatten> Are my messages getting out?
<Sherry> yes
<Blossom^> yes Ghatten
<Who> that one did
<z-WindSong> YES*** z-KYBelle has quit IRC (z-KYBelle)
<techie> I just saw your note to Sharn...
<z-Tawanda> i c u...
<z-Wederquist> Yes Ghatten
<Ghatten> Okay i was just worried we were having difficulty like last week!
<Ghatten> Does anyone have a question about the lessons?
<z-Tawanda> Q:  Sometimes the <P ALIGN="whatever
<z-Tawanda> works and sometimes it doesn't ???
<Ghatten> It does not usually work to CENTER
<Ghatten> but should work for RIGHT AND LEFT
<z-Tawanda> Why not center... sometimes yes, sometimes no...?*** Ghatten has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
<z-Trendar> does anyone have a list of free web sites
<Otter> OK -- I've been a bit distracted  d --
<Zonie> Links to Tutorials, Cyber Schools, Web supplies, and more
<Zonie> http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/8043/
<Otter> but until Ghatten gets back, are there any more questions?
<Zonie> under web supplys/vu web supplys hundreds of them up to 10mb
<z-Ro> I do on my HTML Resource page.  http://members.aol.com/jobfinddr/morehtml.htm.
<techie> Otter, I'm taking notes on the lessons and then recording them in HTML...Am I violating VU's copyright by doing that?  Can I ever post them as a guide or is that a no no?
<z-Ro> If that one is problematic like today you can go to the mirror site at http://home.earthlink.net/~rfruchtman/morehtml.html
<Otter> You can use them for your own personal tutors
<Otter> but they are the property of VU and your would have to get their permiss  ion*** Ghatten (webdesign@ACCS-AS53-DP12.nwrk.grid.net) has joined #webdesign
<Otter> to post them elsewhere
<techie> But I should NOT share them with others not taking the class, RIGHT?
<Otter> No legally unless they have paid for the class
<techie> I want to do what's ethical.
<anna1> otter, are we talking personal NOTES? or replicas of vu materials?
<Otter> Plagiarism
<Otter> If you rewrite ALL of a lesson in your own words, its yours
<Otter> If you use most of the VU lesson  n, it's theirs
<techie> What if I use the same order of the lessons?
<anna1> ok, that helps me....same thing applies to just about everything on the web
<z-Ro> I have a question... about copyright on the web.
<techie> Last question...What if I use the same order of the lessons?  Is hierarchy also copyrighted?
<Otter> If you are just using the 'idea  s' presented in the lessons but have written them yourself  f, it should be ok
<Otter> but don't 'copy' from VU!!!!!
<Ghatten> Techie--don't copy the lesson materials.  If you are using the INFORMATION to write your OWN original materials it is a LOT different.....
<z-Sherry> techie, basically, if after you do your lessons, I can tell they were on vu first, they are the same
<Ghatten> When in doubt, DON'T
<z-mel02> Will there be any chat about Html tonight?
<techie> Good explanation of a sometimes fuzzy topic....If I need to know more, I'll send you a copy and ask specifics.  Thanks.
<Ghatten> I am HAPPY to entertain ANY HTML related questions!
<z-Ro> I have a copyright question.
<Ghatten> okay Ro
<Ghatten> Are there any HTML question?
<z-Ro> I met a woman on the web recently in my Christmas WebRing.  We got friendly and she told me that she had written a poem and had it on her site.  She had it clearly labeled that no one should copy it.  Also had the copyright marked but never registered it legally.
<z-Ro> Some fellow came along and took the poem, wrote a message, not asking *just telling
<z-Ro> her and took her name off the poem.  To this day, she is uncertain about what her rights are.
<z-Ro> I think if nothing else she can write to the fellows ISP.
<z-Ro> Comment??
<z-Sherry> if she can prove that she wrote it first, she can sue, anything is copyrighted the minute it is created, registered or no
<Ghatten> http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html  Read the first Myth there
<z-Ro> I'll pass that on to her.
<Ghatten> http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html  This site also gives an explanation of what Techie wanted to know
<z-Wederquist> Not sure if this belongs here--but I have used a series of "tables" to make "frames" around some pictures.  It seems there is always a small space between the bottom of the picture and the bottom of the "frame".  Is there anyway to prevent this?
<Blossom^> written material does not have to be registered.....it is automatically copyrighted...however on the WWW.....one should plainly have the date it was created and a means of correspondence clearly available such as e-mail addy.
<z-Ro> She had her email address as he did write to her.
<Who> Wederquist...do you have an URL?
<z-Ro> But blattently<sp> took her name off the poem and used it on his site.
<z-mel02> Does copy rights mean that you can not copy any thing from the Web sight Like jokes etc?
<z-Ro> Something similar happened about 8 months ago to someone else that I knew but he got satisfaction when he wrote to the person's ISP.
<z-Ro> The person took the page off her site.  Or I should say she took off his page layout and still usd the information
<Blossom^> that's a good route to take Ro
<Ghatten> http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html 
<z-Ro> ISP don't like any problems and if they think that someone is doing something illegal that could cause them any problems at the least they will write to the person involved.
<Ghatten> Do we actually have any HTML questions??
<z-Wederquist> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/4934/index.html
<Who> G: from [19:56] <z-Wederquist> Not sure if this belongs here--but I have used a series of "tables" to make "frames" around some pictures.  It seems there is always a small space between the bottom of the picture and the bottom of the "frame".  Is there anyway to prevent this?
<z-dowie> The class chat logs are piled at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/5425/chatlog.htm
<Zonie> >> z-Wederquist << CELLPADDING=0
<Ghatten> I've used the same technique Wederquist....
<Ghatten> Don't recall the problem occurring...is it on IE or Netscape?
<z-Wederquist> Netscape
<Zonie> >> z-Wederquist << did you use an editor like composer to do it ?????
<Ghatten> You might do like Zonie suggested
<z-Wederquist> Zonie--no editor--but I did copy and paste it
<Ghatten> and also be sure you do not have any empty cells hanging around 
<z-Wederquist> Thankee
<z-Ro> I have a question... about web pages changing with resolution that relates to Wederquist's quesition.
<Who>  bgcolor="#cccccc"cellpadding=0 cellspacing
<Zonie> editors like composer (wyswyg) some times put a <BR> in the cell
<Who> missing a blank space
<z-Ro> I'm sorry!
<Ghatten> s'okay
<Who> Weder...did you see my note?
<Dunn3> I have a question??
<Ghatten> So--set the cellpadding and cellspacing to 0, look for empty cells and look for any extra <BR> tags
<z-Wederquist> Yes, Who--I am logging and will sort it all out tomorrow!! Thanks
<mel02> You mentioned copy rights. Does that mean that I can not copy jokes frome the internet, like jokes of the day?
<Ghatten> That depends on the site--they may give their approval to do something like that mel02.  Look to see if they have any guidelines
<Ghatten> Ro your related question?
<z-Ro> Ok...
<z-Ro> I used to always use 640 x 480 resolution.  Or is it 680 x 480... Anyway, on my new system it is set up to be 800 x 600.*** Ghatten (webdesign@ACCS-AS53-DP12.nwrk.grid.net) has left #webdesign
<mel02> OK . When I have made copies I always include the contributer. But I will check the sight in the future.
<z-Ro> On my Princess Diana page where I also used a table to create a frame around Diana's picture
<z-Ro> there is *now* a huge space between the right edge of the picture and the right border of the table/frame.
<anna1> yeah, and when I do that, I also include the url too
<Zonie> cellpadding I bet : )
<z-Ro> When I did the picture I *did* specify a width and height.
<Who> URL?
<anna1> to the site
<z-Ro> How do I create the same effect and have it work on all browsers?
<z-Ro> http://members.aol.com/jobfindr/diana/princess.htm
<z-Ro> Does anyone have an answer for my question?
<Who> RO: still waiting for AOL to answer
<z-Ro> wait...
<flamingo> RO: I'm still waiting for your page to load
<z-Ro> Go here... http://home.earthlink.net/~rfruchtman/diana/princess.html
<z-Ro> something is wrong with AOL *all day today!*
<Who> thats working quicker
<Zonie> you have your width set as %
<z-Ro> I forgot, I apologize for sending you to AOL first.
<Zonie> src="dianagw.gif"width="240"
<Zonie> no space between gif" and width
<Who> hmmmm...r we beginning to see a pattern here?
<z-Ro> I did that when I was not that experienced with HTML.
<techie> I have a question.
<Zonie> take out that 48% of screen and it could only look better LOL
<Zonie> Idon't use any size for pictureframes : )
<z-Ro> If you look at it with the smaller resolution set it looks perfect.
<Zonie> so it hugs tight
<Zonie> I never use % for that reason, different resolutions see it different
<z-Ro> I will work on it.  I noticed it when I got the new computer and the different resolution was set up.
<flamingo> I agree with Zonnie... take out the 48%... then you won't have any problems with any size monitor
<z-Ro> Thank you.
<Zonie> no problem : )
<z-Ro> Also I have a tip that happened to me yesterday.
<Zonie> tell 
<z-Ro> When I did the Diana pages, it was my first experience with midi files in the page.
<z-Ro> So I had asked my HTML group for help.<listserv group>
<z-Ro> And they told me how to set up the midi to play from the server and also from my hard drive.
<z-Ro> I had both code lines in my pages and I always heard music.  I had no reason to believe that  no one else did on two of my pages.
<z-Ro> I had the wrong line commented out but never realized it until I got *the new system* and the directories were set up differently.
<Zonie> that it ?
<z-Ro> When I investigated to see what the problem was I discovered that I had the wrong line commented out.  Never realized that.  My Christmas page had almost 3,000 people and no one heard the music *except me!*
<z-Ro> My Tip!... If you have music
<z-Ro> you should always ask *someone* else to try it out as well and see if they hear the music.
<Zonie> yep : )
<z-Ro> Maybe it's stupid, but it did happen to me and I never knew.
<techie> There are no stupid questions..
<Who> Good lesson there
<Otter> not just withmusic -- it's goodto have people checkit on MAC, IE andNS for you too
<techie> I have a question.
<Zonie> I didn't put sound on any of my pages for a long time because the modem/sound card  I had wouldn't play midi on the net
<Who> check out your site from as many servers, browsers, sites, etc as you can
<z-Ro> I did, but never realized that no one heard music.
<z-MCW> or run your page through a validator
<Zonie> The simplest cross-browser code
<anna1> I have both IE and NS so if anyone wants me to check something I can
<Zonie> If you want simple code without having to worry whether someone is using Netscape or something else, here it is:
<Zonie> <EMBED SRC="targetURL" HIDDEN=TRUE AUTOSTART=TRUE>
<Zonie> <NOEMBED>
<Zonie> <BGSOUND SRC="targetURL">
<Zonie> </NOEMBED>
<Zonie> if you want the music to loop (keep playing or play x times REPEAT=x or LOOP=x)
<Zonie> <EMBED SRC="targetURL" HIDDEN=TRUE REPEAT=TRUE AUTOSTART=TRUE>
<Zonie> <NOEMBED>
<Zonie> <BGSOUND SRC="targetURL" LOOP=INFINITE>
<Zonie> </NOEMBED>
<Zonie> the <NOEMBED></NOEMBED> tags prevent MSIE 4.x from trying to do both and causing problems.
<Zonie> for more information on sounds on your web page try
<Zonie> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4294/midixbbm.html#model
<flamingo> techie: what is your question?
<Zonie> I have NS4 and 3 and IE4
<techie> Should I ask a site for permission before I link to it or comment on it in my site?
<Who> techie...would be the proper thing to do
<techie> Good.
<Zonie> most want all the links they can get : )
<Zonie> some even give your site one on there page
<z-dowie> This can be used inside the A HREF tag?
<Zonie> >> z-dowie << what ?
<z-Ro> I have been linking and then writing a nice note and asking if they would like to place a reciprocal link.  I tell them that it is not necessary but would be appreciated.  They usually add my URL to their page.
<flamingo> yes, dowie
<z-dowie> Thanks.  I was wondering how to hide the control panel.
<Zonie> >> z-dowie << not the sound tags n o
<Zonie> there will be no sound panel if you use the HIDDEN=TRUE part
<Zonie> >> z-dowie << you get that ?
<z-dowie> The sound tags?  
<flamingo> dowie: I thought that you were talking about linking to other sites...
<Who> Dowie: before you hide the sound panel think about the users who DON'T want to hear your sounds
<Otter> they can turnoff the volume!!! :)
<Zonie> >> z-dowie << the sound tags stand alone no inside of any other tag
<Who> In fact....before you add sounds to a page think about the users who don't want to wait for sounds to load
<Otter> On old IE --there are no control  s for the soundexcept the putervolume control --don't no about thenewer versions
<Zonie> I refused to use sounds until I could make them work without the panel and still turn them on and off at will
<Zonie> I had to use frames to do it the way I wanted it, but it works : )
<Who> If frames do
<Zonie> My Project for this HTML class is at
<Zonie> http://members.xoom.com/flfry/crutchaids/
<Zonie> can turn on or off, select tune, and it works in NS 3 & 4 and IE 3 and 4 : )
<Otter> Well -- it'spast the end ofclass -- Ghattennever made it back-- so if there areno more questions-- class is official  ly over!!!
<z-Wederquist> Otter--think that address will be up soon?the thumbnails?
<Who> LOGS at  http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/5425/chatlog.htm
<Otter> I've got myfingers crossedthat geocities doesn  't loose all of thefiles!!!
<z-Wederquist> Ro--the address about thumbnails listed on the student page
<Otter> I have a versi  on that you will beable to print outas soon as I canget in there toupload it
<z-Wederquist> Thank you OtterSession Close: Sat Jan 31 21:00:50 1998