At 05:18 PM 10/18/97 -0500, Charles A Harris wrote: >... At last I did check the battery and found that sure enough it had >died... >Now with the new battery she has been starting fine until the day before >yesterday when at the stables she refused to start. She bump started >fine, and the starter worked for the rest of the day. yesterday she >became like Bob Noguiras lottery starter on his return from Alaska, as >sometimes it works, sometimes it did not. The new battery seems fine, so >I wonder wheather the starter has sure enough now died, or if the >solenoids are a problem. Any suggestion would be appreciated.. Chuck, Since you have a new battery and the starter has been checked, I'd lay my money on the solenoid. However, it could be any of the three. To test the system: 1. Use a volt meter across the battery and have a helper try to start the car. What is the voltage reading? It should be over 9V. If not, it's either a bad battery or a bad starter. Check the starter by trying to jump start the car from another (supposedly good battery in a running car). 2. Using either a test light or a voltmeter, check the output wire from the starter solenoid to the starter. Have a helper try to start the car and see if the test light lights or there is > 10 volts at the output of the solenoid. When the solenoid clicks (engages) it is pulling a metal bar across 2 contacts. It is not uncommon for one of the contacts or the bar to burn (actually get eaten away) over a period of years. So while you hear the solenoid click and think it is working it really isn't as there is no real connection because of the burned part. 3. If there is voltage to the starter, and yet it is not turning over, then suspect the starter. I'm from the school of cheap. Most times the cheapest part in a circuit is what goes. Therefore, if I had to easter egg it, I'd start with the solenoid. I must say that on one occassion I purchased a "brand new battery" and didn't even make it home. It was bad to start with. So just because you have a "new" battery doesn't mean that it can't be the problem. Hope this help! John ---------------------------------------------------------- Happy new year! Many thanks to everyone who replied to my original mail - the broad and insightful responses were fascinating... I have identified the problem as a corroded battery earth lead connection which appears to be the result of water collecting around the bolt (mainly when I wash the car....!) I have cleaned up the lead, applied some grease and will ensure that after washing I always go for a run to give the engine compartment a chance to dry. Once again, many thanks! Tim. -------------------- > From: MOGLOOM@aol.com[SMTP:MOGLOOM@aol.com] > Sent: 02 November 1998 17:05 > To: Hooley, Tim T > Subject: Re: Starting when hot..... > > Tim: Sounds like starter brgs (bushings) need to be replaced. When hot it > allows the armature to rub on the field coils. This is common on most cars > after several years of age. Not just Morgans!!! > Cheers, > Richard Williams > 4/4 '56 Series II A-258 > > > ---------- > From: Ray[SMTP:ray@millicom.clara.net] > Sent: 02 November 1998 16:25 > To: Hooley, Tim T > Subject: RE: Starting when hot..... > Importance: High > > Hi to check the chassis earth - just put a starting jumper lead from the > block to the battery earth side - if that solves the problem - you know > where the fault lies... > > Rgds > Ray > > ---------- > From: Willburn, Gerry[SMTP:Gerry.Willburn@trw.com] > Sent: 02 November 1998 15:16 > To: Hooley, Tim T > Subject: RE: Starting when hot..... > > Tim, > > I have not heard of the FIAT +4 having this problem before but it is > probably related to the same problem that Alfa's Chevvy's and most other > cars with the selenoid mounted to the starter motor. > > The problem relates to not having enough battery voltage to pull in the > selenoid when hot. The symptoms are similar to a low (or dead) battery (a > low battery will agrivate the problem) and goes away after the car cools > off > a bit. It has to do with the wimpy wiring to the starter and the > resistance > of the key switch. > > I cured the problem on my Alfa by mounting a horn relay RIGHT AT THE > STARTER. I used the hot battery lead to the starter as the hot wire with > the horn lead to the selenoid. The old selenoid wire was used to actuate > the relay. No more problem! The Corvette people go to great lenghts to > try > and heat shield the starter. > > Hope this helps. > > Gerry > > ---------- > From: John Hameleers[SMTP:jhamelee@best.ms.philips.com] > Sent: 02 November 1998 10:29 > To: Hooley, Tim T > Subject: Re: Starting when hot..... > > Hello Tim, > > I have had a simular problem with my 1987 Morgan. In cold condition it > was no problem at all to start the engine and as soon as the motor > became hot, it became very difficult to start the engine. > > After some "trouble shooting" I found a "bad contact" between the cable > connection of the motor to the chassis. In the motor compartment near > the frontwheel you will find a cable connection between the motor and > the chassis (negative earth connection). Due to some bad contact between > the cable eye tag and the chassis (paint not sufficiently removed from > the factory) there was some resistance in the connection and as soon as > the motor became hot, the resistance increased, causing a drop of the > voltage of the battery resulting in a very lazy and very slowly turning > startmotor. > > So, what you also could do is, to check the battery voltage as soon as > the motor is hot and the start motor is getting lazy. Incase you see a > drop of the battery voltage from 12V to 8 or 9 Volt, I would suggest to > have a look to a possible bad connection of the motor/chassis cable > connection. > To measure the battery voltage, I would suggest to use a "portable" > voltmeter, because the voltmeter of the Morgan dashboard has a very slow > reaction time. > > After removal of some paint from the chassis near the chassis connection > bolt (to make good contact) and cleaning of the cable eye tag, the > starting problem disappeared and I have been driving trouble free for > over the last 9 years. > > Good luck, > > John. > > '87 4/4 > '39 MX4 SS > > ---------- > From: VanBlanken@aol.com[SMTP:VanBlanken@aol.com] > Sent: 31 October 1998 22:41 > To: Hooley, Tim T > Subject: Re: Starting when hot..... > > Assuming the armature isn't swelling up and making starting difficult > (which > can happen as cars get older), I would check the engine/starter ground to > chassis/battery. Grounds that look good when cold can develop really high > resistance when the electrons have been trying to flow. If something > electrical doesn't make sense (like you are POSITIVE there is nothing > wrong > with the starter), it is ALWAYS a bad ground. > > ----------------------- > From: gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com[SMTP:gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com] on > behalf of SOLOW GREG[SMTP:gregmogdoc@surfnetusa.com] > Sent: 02 November 1998 00:24 > To: Hooley, Tim T; 'morgans@autox.team.net' > Subject: RE: Starting when hot..... > > It sounds like something in the electrical circuit for the starter is > getting high resistance when it gets hot. > 1. Check the battery cables and the connections at both the battery and at > the ground and at the starter. Make certain that they are all clean and > tight. > 2. Use a ammeter to check the stater draw when it is hot and > malfunctioning. It should be over 100amps and less than 200 amps. If it > is low the problem is most likley a bad connection, if it is high , it is > most likely a bad starter. You can also use a volt meter to check > "voltage drop" in the starter power and ground ciruits. To do this you > hook a volt meter in parallel with the circuit to be measure while the > circuit is in operation. This will probably take two people. While the > starter is cranking, connect the two leads of a volt meter between the > positive battery post and the battery cable connection frist on the > solenoid(which on your Fiat engine is part of the starter) and then in a > second test on the heavy connector between the solenoid and the starter > motor itself. The difference between the two measurements is the voltage > drop inside the solenoid. The total voltage drop should not be more the > .2 volts. Doing the same test on the "ground " side of the circuit, > between the negative post of the battery and the block of the engine > should not result in a voltage drop of more than .1 volt. The battery > must be fully charged to do these tests.DO NOT CONNECT THE VOLTMETER > BETWEEN THE BATTERY POSITIVE TERMINAL AND THE HEAVEY WIRE THAT GOES > DIRECTLY INTO THE STARTER IF THE STARTER IS NOT ACTUALLY BEING ACTUATED > AND IS CRANKING OR TRYING TO CRANK AND DO NOT LEAVE IT CONNECTED AFTER > STOPPING THE STARTER FROM CRANKING. THE VOLT METER WILL BLOW IF YOU DO. It > must be in parallel.High voltage drops mean high resistance. High > resistance ussually means bad connections. Marelli starters are > notoriously bad. It many be a bad starter. Regards, Greg Solow > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hooley, Tim T [SMTP:Tim.Hooley@gs.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 7:49 AM > To: 'morgans@autox.team.net' > Subject: Starting when hot..... > > Hello, > > I have had my 1986 Fiat-powered +4 for almost a year now and I am > well and > truly in love.... > > I am hoping that someone can help me to solve a small problem > involving the > car being very difficult to start when hot - the starter motor seems > to > become very lazy and turn very slowly, if at all - this seems to get > worse > as the car gets hotter... > > I realize that this is quite a mundane problem but would really > appreciate > any advice. > > Thanks. > Tim.