Discussion in Slave_Traders_Inn at 9th of February 2005
ChanModes set to +m by Da^id
Da^id rises
Da^id: Men!
Da^id sits again
Da^id: girls
Da^id coughs
Da^id: ok, lets be less formal
Da^id: today I have a very gorean topic.....
Da^id: it has to do with the books
Da^id: THE BOOKS ...... THE SCROLLS
Da^id: now....
Da^id: we all know John Norman was not the best novellist
Da^id: but as we look to the world he created.....
Da^id: usually we talk about what we see as good and worth to be transfered into our world...
Da^id: but today lets do the oppisite
Da^id: our topic is:
Da^id: What we dont like of John Normans Gor
Da^id: we are looking for the most important elements we dont like
Alanr: Free women?
Da^id: those who are no experts in his books will soon see that we all know some stuffs on that
Da^id: ok.....
Da^id: FW?
Alanr: them too
Da^id: Norman writes that slaves are a small number
Da^id: though the books read as if its the other way round he says that most females on Gor are not slaves
elinor{T}: why do men not like FW?
Alanr: Very true.
elinor{T}: or is that another topic?
Da^id: in a way yes, elinor
elinor{T}: oh.. sorry Master
Da^id: but lets phrase it like this:
Da^id: if Norman wuld have described all women to be slaves.... what would be different?
lina{D^d}: boring..
lina{D^d}: He wouldnt have anything to spin anymore..
Da^id nods
lina{D^d}: no small part of FW submitting twist in his stories
elinor{T}: nothing really? as perhaps most Masters agree that FW are only free if allowed to be
Alanr: There certainly needs to be a contrast to make one stand out from the other.
raine{STI}> perhaps having children was the contrast .. a slave's child being slave at birth
elinor{T}: so maybe FW are really slaves inside.. just don't know it? one should feel sorry for them?
Da^id: well, elinor, but there is a Tatrix, there is Talena, there are rich FW
raine{STI}> but .. that seems it was something "we" did not like about John Norman's Gor, Master ... men here like lots of slaves
elinor{T} grins to raine
Da^id: I wouldnt like Gor with all women being slaves
Alanr: I don't think it'd have the spice it does with only slaves
taladh{T}: it also gives the full range of what women are capable of and to show that there is strength within them at both ends of the spectrum..?
Da^id nods
Alanr: It pushes Men to be stronger as there is something other than slaves to be compared to.
Da^id: I think it more makes slaves lower
Tustin listens quietly
Da^id: its not only that they are female.....
Da^id: but a slavegirl has not only the Men to look up to but even FW
Alanr: to true, indeed
Da^id: a certain FW might be chained into the same chain the next day.... but as well might she whip that kajira a few hours later
raine{STI}> do sisters 'feel' differently when a FW is present?
gia: not all slaves are intelligent nor are all slaves compliant....nor are FW intelligent or give deferrence
Da^id: true gia, very true... and btw. the same with Masters
gia: yes Master Da^id
Alanr: Takes all kinds to make a sociaty
Da^id: that loweres a slave additionally: it doesnt help you to be intelligent.... you still kiss the boot of the most stupid farmer
lina{D^d}: i will '
gia: whether we want to or not
gia grins
lina{D^d}: i will "feel" different if i'm serving her, rainey
lina{D^d}: else i'll be content with just hiding in my corner :D
Da^id: ok.....
Da^id: now away from FW
Da^id: are there aspects we dont like in the books?
gia: does not like it that there is nowhere is there 'one' philosophy, no 'one' interpretation, 'one-for-all, all-for-one', while its an individual thing, no one has same honor, no one has same precept...too no one can agree on what we say is 'its philosophy'
Da^id nods
gia: its not clear-cut
elinor{T}: elinor does not care much for the sci fi .. impossible things he writes about.. but that is elinor's thought.. she likes best the philosopy that pertains to us too..
Da^id: is that really a disadvantage?
gia: i think so Master...it promote dastardly arguments
elinor{T} listens
Da^id: why, gia?
gia: seems to me Master....that its a territorial thing
gia: no one wants to concede to anothers viewpoint...its like, 'giving up territory'
Da^id nods
Alanr: There, or here?
raine{STI} nods ..
Da^id: often the way he describes how things are done lets the Goreans look a bit stupid
Da^id: Ill give you a big example.....
gia: there is no clear-cut quote...one quote...in the volumes of quotes that 'offer' one for all
Da^id: for those who read the later books....
gia settles back, listening
Da^id: when the great army of Ar gets trapped in the delta while Ar-Station and late rAr gets conquered....
Da^id: all the time the Ar army is described as the best of all... and the Tarnburg guy who commands it is brilliant.....
Da^id: but why is it so easy to trap them???
Da^id: why dont they see they march into a nothing of swamp and dust???
taladh{T}: propaganda?
Da^id: every mediocre earth military commander sends scouts
Da^id: Dieter of Tarnburg doesnt
Da^id: its a bit silly
Tustin smiles
Da^id: but it serves the plot Norman needs
Da^id: such things happen very often
taladh{T}: people often don't live up to their reputations though
Alanr: He does twist things at times to suit His needs
Tustin: well in my view....it is not about what I don't like about the books....it is about how some people interpet them...and look at them almost as if they are a second bible
gia smiles to taladh
Da^id nods at both
gia nods in agreement to Master Tustins words
taladh{T} smiles back to gia warmly
Da^id: well, Tustin, thats why I try a bit to show how silly some of the concepts in the books are
Tustin: Norman mixed in some English BDSM with the old west...:)
Da^id: plus a bit of 19th century Africa jungle
Da^id: *laughs*
gia: too though Master Tustin, if you please...why do we take from the books as 'gospel' and not all?
Alanr: and more than a touch of Roman times
Tustin: Indeed Da^id
raine{STI} smiles at Master Tustin, his words reminding her of the old west feeling to the books .. she thought so too, some of them
Da^id humms Poor lonsome Cowboy......
Da^id: okay.....
taladh{T}: taladh gets more of a medieval feel though much
Da^id: there are aspects which are not very trustworthy.....
raine{STI}> this sounds more like a reason to like them .. different adventures to appeal to all
Da^id: like: what do the Goreans do with old ppl? what do they think about death?
elinor{T}: no one gets old.. they have that *serum* that all are treated with?
gia: sci-fi....is futuristic, fantasy..normally....so then while this Master/slave concept is as old as the hills, its set in a idealistic venue, imaginative creations of a philosophers mind
Da^id: all human cultures develop cults about death and such - in Gor its only the Torvaldsland ppl
Da^id: lets immagine Norman knew what he did.....
Alanr: There are rituals for death found in a number of places on Gor
raine{STI}> they do age, it's just alot slower .. The Cities of Dust are where the dead go .. burning pyre's and ceremonial send offs if raine remembers correctly
elinor{T} nods to Master Alanr's statement.. buring
elinor{T}: burning..
Da^id: yes, Alanr, but only fur the moment of the funeral
elinor{T}: yes raine elinor remembers that too
Da^id: theres no religion
Da^id: at least not in the mainland
Alanr: other than concerns the Priest Kings?
Da^id: they are real subjects, no Gods
Alanr: Few of the Goreans know that
Da^id: but noone takes the initiates serious
elinor{T}: Priest-Kings are their gods?
Da^id: the initiates are kind of Priest-Kings priests
elinor{T}: that is the feeling elinor got too Master
Da^id: but the priest-kings ignore the initiates
Da^id: ok.....
Da^id: are there othere elements to mention?
Da^id: nothing?
Da^id gets surprised
Alanr smiles
Tustin chuckles
Da^id: everybody complains about the books..... but obviously they are better than most admit
Da^id: quite long winded.....
elinor{T}: elinor thinks with respect that he doesn't come to the point..
Alanr: Redundant to a fault
Da^id: elinor, what do you mean?
elinor{T}: to find the ending to a tale.. one must read forwever..
Tustin: lots of inconsistencies
Da^id: true
elinor{T}: well... such as the stories elinor has gleaned from the books.. she can condense them and get the whole store
elinor{T}: story
elinor{T}: rather than read and read and get all the other stuff.. then back to the story, then more stuff
Da^id: true
elinor{T}: she is avid for *what happens*
elinor{T} smiles
Alanr: How many times do we need to have the concept of slavery discussed?
elinor{T}: not then.. Adam begot .. etc etec
Da^id: if it would be 7 books instead of 26 or 28.... that would be a good size
taladh{T}: even the rambling gives us more bits of the puzzle to fit in of that world though, like little bits of gold in the mud
Tustin: actually I kind of like the descriptions of slavery Alanr :)
Da^id: theres one obvious inconsistant point.....
raine{STI}> raine has never been settled with how Goreans are described as loving all one can get out of life ... small and large ... yet killing was such a large part of it too
Da^id: we are told a kajira usually is not too expansive.....
Da^id: so you dont get rich by selling a few.....
Da^id: how can it pay to bring in girls from earth?
Tustin: one of the problems we face with that is a lack of understanding about the slave culture...all slaves on Gor were not pleasure slaves...yet that is what we deal mostly with here
Da^id: most slaves were working slaves
raine{STI}> < pot and kettle girl, at heart!
Alanr: I think they found travelocity before we got it
Alanr: cheap tickets
Tustin: your average pot and kettle girl could also find herself at the foot of her Master's couch...
Alanr: or the worker in the factory
Tustin nods
lina{D^d}: so... technically kajirae are those who built everything on Gor ?
lina{D^d}: cause they are the workers .. cleaners... etc etc ... they even work in mines
gia: lol lina
Alanr: They slaving on Earth wasn't for plain, ordinary girls. The one picked up here were very select and could bring higher prices
Da^id: no, building gets be done by male slaves and workers
gia winks to her
lina{D^d}: oh..
lina{D^d} smiles a little sheepishly
lina{D^d}: yes, Master
raine{STI} grins to lina
Alanr: And Free Masons
taladh{T}: Free do that work too..the lower castes are numerous
Da^id: theres a builders caste
Tustin: like the old south in the US...owning slaves was an indication of a man's worth
raine{STI}> and there were not that many slaves anyway
lina{D^d}: cause lina was wondering if a good fort was built by kajirae .. how long that would take considering the fact that all kajirae are puny and petite
lina{D^d} nods
Da^id looks arround
Alanr: Allot of Free grew the crops that fed the planit
lina{D^d}: perhaps They plant the seeds only ?
lina{D^d}: kinda like .. an opening ceremony
lina{D^d}: the kajirae plows ..
lina{D^d}: the Master just throw the seeds
gia: well sis....you've hit on one sure aspect of it
gia smiles
lina{D^d}: the kajirae waters the plant ..
Da^id: lina, thats why some Masters adrfess their slavegirl like: "my lil gazelle! .... or how is that animal called with trunk and tusk?"
gia: then the girls go break their backs to cover them with dirt?
raine{STI} imagines Free being carried around the fields, tossing seeds to the ground ... laughing
lina{D^d}: oh.. the kajirus will be the one carrying, rainey !
Da^id: the farmers are free in the books
lina{D^d}: we're just .. too puny..
lina{D^d} holds up an arm, limply
Da^id: and often the folks in the countryside dont have any slaves
Alanr: Most of the villiges of peasent Farmers had no slaves at all.
gia: peasants didnt have slaves, Master?
Da^id: obviously slaves exist predominantly in the cities
elinor{T}: not all slave girls are puny .. if owned by peasants.. they are worked very hard.. it says
Da^id: most didnt, gia
raine{STI}> bondmaids worked the fields in the North
lina{D^d}: but ...
Alanr: it was very rare that a peasant had enough to buy a slave.
lina{D^d}: who would describe a kajira as ... "yes yes.. thats my girl..the one there..with the muscles.."
Da^id: *laughs*
elinor{T}: a peasant who could get alot of work out of his slave girl might lina
spiritfire: Master Da^id one question in pm please
elinor{T}: it depends on what a girl is used for..
lina{D^d}: but .. arent kajirae supposed to look all pretty ..and dainty ?
gia grins to lina
lina{D^d}: if .. we get described as muscles-like and gangly .. wouldnt that .. sorta spoil the whole kajirae image ?
elinor{T}: but.. lina.. all girls are not pleasure slaves
lina{D^d} blinks, all curious
gia: like all girls aren't dancers
lina{D^d}: but still ... from what lina read in the book .. kajirae are suppose to be the most beautiful nymphs .. be it pleasure slaves or not...
gia blinks to wolfsy
raine{STI}> good point, lina
lina{D^d}: like .. they have stylists tagging them 24/7 ...
lina{D^d}: no strands of hair can go out of place ...
lina{D^d}: no sweat ..
lina{D^d}: no freckles or pimples
lina{D^d}: no ounce of fats
Alanr: there were plenty of descriptions of plain or powerful female slaves that cooked or cleaned or working in factories.
elinor{T}: in some books the girls are not beautiful .. they are workers
raine{STI}> well .. maybe not that pampered, but certainly lithe and graceful
Da^id: there are ppl who see female wrestlers as sexy
lina{D^d}: those must be the kajirae that works in a mine
lina{D^d} nods
raine{STI}> maybe that is more an Earth concept, lina .. some men here expect kajira to all be that way ?? maybe?
elinor{T}: true raine.. lina is correct about that
Alanr nods, a touch of a smile on the corners
Alanr: One thing that has to be understood about the books is that they were printed to make money
Alanr: no one makes money talking in detail about another world's environments
[20:15] -> ChanModes set to -m by Da^id