STI Log: June 09, 2004: Modified to remove greets and other unrelated comments and actions and fix My bad spelling (where I noticed)

[16:01] * R-Flagg stands
[16:01]  My topics for today are "The online slave" and "*Forced* submission"
[16:02] * kishy smile listening
[16:02] * gia{FH} smiles...listening
[16:02]  all of you are slaves online, so you should all have some experience with this topic
[16:02] * felicity{STI} smiles, too..and listens
[16:03] * dina{STI} smiles
[16:03]  the first, most obvious (I think) difficulty with online slavery is the lack of physical interaction
[16:03]  when I whip a girl online, it does not really have the same effect as if I whip her offline
[16:04]  sometimes it can Master
[16:04]  and cyber can be fun ... but it is a poor substitute for the real thing,
[16:04] * kishy nods
[16:05]  so, is there any significant value to the online relationship?
[16:05]  and, how well does it compare to an offline one?
[16:06]  before I say that "offline is best", I must acknowledge that I have had a lot of crappy offline M/s relationships,
[16:06]  communication and trust are extremely important,
[16:06]  and both of these things easily transfer to an online environment
[16:06]  and wouldnt communication and trust be with the online experience
[16:07] * R-Flagg nods
[16:07]  they are essential to online or offline
[16:07] * felicity{STI} smiles
[16:08]  I have had an offline M/s relationship as recently as the last year that was very weak in trust and communication
[16:08]  it ended, and primarily because of these factors
[16:08]  btw, love was there,
[16:08]  but love alone will not sustain any M/s relationship
[16:08] <{ariella}DG> It is more difficult for a Master to weave the web online to perk the slaves interest.. so the majority of components are in the emotional physical and spiritual sense for online. 
[16:09]  There are four primary elements to human nature:
[16:09]  Physical, Emotional, Intellectual and Spiritual
[16:09] * Da^id nods
[16:09] * felicity{STI} agrees
[16:10]  pretty much everything else can be distilled down to elements of these four
[16:10]  So, lets look at each one:
[16:10]  Physical interaction in online relationship is tough
[16:10]  there can be some, but it is very limited
[16:11]  Emotional, however, can be pretty much open
[16:11]  I think a person can be as emotionally attached to someone they know online as someone who is offline
[16:11]  Intellectual interactions are also unlimited by the medium
[16:11]  (maybe typing skills interfere)
[16:11] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:12] * {ariella}DG smiles
[16:12] * gia{FH} agrees wholeheartedly on that one
[16:12]  but for the most part, you can understand the intellectual components of the Master or slave
[16:12] * felicity{STI} giggles and nods
[16:12]  and finally, Spiritual 
[16:12]  again, there should be no limit on this
[16:12]  if you trust your Master or slave,
[16:12]  it should not be hard to eventually have them see into your soul
[16:13]  and see into theirs
[16:13]  so ... the only significant barriar to online slavery is the physical component
[16:13]  is that enough to make it not worth while?
[16:14]  are feelings, intellectual exchange, and touching of another's soul, without physical interaction, valuable?
[16:14]  of course it leads to hope 
[16:14]  hope to be offline, dina?
[16:15]  or something else?
[16:15]  and physical interaction
[16:15]  not all wish physicial interaction
[16:15]  reciprocation? 
[16:15]  okay ... poll time:
[16:16]  rate from 1-10 (1=bad, 10=awesome) the maximum potential you think is possible with an online only relationship:
[16:17]  those that dont want physical interaction would they have that already 
[16:17] * felicity{STI} thinks...
[16:17]  1
[16:17]  5
[16:17] * R-Flagg waits for at least every girl to respond
[16:18] * felicity{STI} thinks it depends...5
[16:18]  10..depending on if both parties want online only
[16:18]  remember ... "maximum" ... so best case 
[16:19] * R-Flagg sees 4 numbers and 7 girls
[16:19] * {ariella}DG is thinking hard Master Flagg
[16:19]  gia, kishy?
[16:19] <{ariella}DG> the potential should be there.. 10 
[16:20]  depending on the couple totally.. can be 1 for those seeking rl and 10 for others.. for kishy personally.. 3
[16:20] * R-Flagg smiles at the smoke rising from ariella
[16:20] <{ariella}DG> smiles 
[16:20]  yes, I agree that in theory 10 would occur in some situations,
[16:20]  but the question really is "for you"
[16:21] <{ariella}DG> depends on the Master's ability 
[16:21]  well, again, ariella, assume the best case
[16:21] <{ariella}DG> that is why ari will stick with 10 
[16:22]  for this one personally, she thinks 7ish
[16:22] * Da^id smiles
[16:22]  online Master Flagg......please......
[16:22]  yaz would not take a collar if not r/l were ever possible
[16:22]  do you mean using pc only?
[16:22]  if no* r/l were ever possible
[16:23]  well, phone would be acceptable too
[16:23]  been there, done that, no thanks..and yaz has tasted r/l
[16:23]  email, chat, phone, web-cam ... any technology is allowed
[16:23]  good remark, gia.... guess it includes all commands and rules for a girls rl her Master could give - but not offline meetings, true, R-Flagg?
[16:23]  but not r/l physical interaction
[16:23] * Da^id nods
[16:23]  yes Da^id
[16:23]  gia thinks 10 
[16:24]  but r/l doesn't have to be from the beginning, just something we are working toward
[16:24]  with cams, phones....all the other resources 
[16:24]  so, average is 5.3
[16:24] * Da^id smiles
[16:24]  dina still thinks its in the middle 
[16:24] * R-Flagg left lina out as she came late
[16:25] <{ariella}DG> just like the cream in the middle of the oreo dina sis 
[16:25]  personally, I would have been about 7.5
[16:25]  3 out of 4
[16:25] * lina{D^d} smiles embarrassingly
[16:25] * dina{STI} smiles
[16:25]  well in the middle is good too
[16:26]  right now dina would take the 1
[16:26]  *Laughs*
[16:26] * felicity{STI} giggles at dina
[16:26] * gia{FH} smiles to dina
[16:26]  in the final few minutes on this subject, I would espouse the virtue of the slave experience online,
[16:27]  I know many people who have had very limited exposure to slavery (even submission) or who are afraid of it,
[16:27]  who discouver a new side to themselves online
[16:27] * felicity{STI} nodsss
[16:27]  perhaps they hope for r/l someday,
[16:27]  thats how dina started
[16:28]  so online only is not really what they are looking for,
[16:28]  but it starts out that way
[16:28]  it is a great stepping stone to experience,
[16:28]  girls:
[16:28] <{ariella}DG> we dont always know where the path will lead us 
[16:28]  have any of you NOT felt the strength of an online Master?
[16:29] * R-Flagg waits only a moment for anyone to raise her hand
[16:29]  so you all know that experience,
[16:29]  that strength from online brings a slave to wanting more
[16:29]  and in and of itself, that experience makes online slavery worth while
[16:29]  any final comments?
[16:30]  dina agrees
[16:30] * gia{FH} is digesting his words
[16:30]  next subject then:  "Forced" submission
[16:30]  (if you have soemthing you want to add, there is open discussion after 5 PM PDT)
[16:31]  Many (many mnay many) girls feel the need to be forced into submission
[16:31]  at least at one time in their life
[16:31]  something like 85% of women have *regular* fantasies about being raped
[16:31]  no one wants to really be raped,
[16:32]  but in the deep recesses of the psyche, is this innate desire to be taken, used, enjoyed
[16:32]  wow guess dina isnt sick
[16:32] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:32] <{ariella}DG> smiles 
[16:32]  how people deal with those ideas varies of course
[16:32]  some seek dominant Men
[16:33]  some keep their feelings private
[16:33]  and some do not act on them at all
[16:33]  in the search for a natural experience however,
[16:34]  there is ultimately an element of force
[16:34]  of non-concentual compliance
[16:34] * Messick listens
[16:34]  online, this might be called a "forced collar"
[16:34]  or any of a dozen other types of M/s interaction
[16:35]  there is (in My experience) a line in which every girl desires to be pushed
[16:35]  to that point, she is compliant, submissive, even willing in an unwilling sort of way
[16:36] * dina{STI} agrees
[16:36]  you all know the poem where the Master pushes the scared girl off the cliff and she flies
[16:36] <{ariella}DG> smiles 
[16:36]  there is, in M/s an element of force
[16:36]  there has to be
[16:36]  dina didnt
[16:36]  ask Me later for the poem, dina
[16:37] * ta`grape{STI} didn't either
[16:37]  if a Master is not forcing His girl to comply to His wishes,
[16:37]  sure thing Master
[16:37]  one of two things will result
[16:37]  either she will think He just does not care, and she will fail to be a good (even decent) slave,
[16:38]  or she will fight His will, taking the proverbial mile from His inch
[16:38] * Messick grins
[16:39]  Masters who do not force their slaves ... at least a bit ... are not Mastering their property
[16:39]  and the girls will suffer, and the M/s is likely to eventually fail
[16:39] * dina{STI} agrees
[16:40] * {ariella}DG agrees too
[16:40]  that said, there are matters of degree 
[16:40] * gia{FH} agrees too
[16:40]  a Man who tyranically abuses His girl at every turn is not going to see good results
[16:40]  it is like the proverb,
[16:40]  been there
[16:40]  "In a strong wind grow strong trees"
[16:40] * felicity{STI} agrees also
[16:41]  but a huricane destroys everything
[16:41]  weak Masters are almost as bad as despotic Masters
[16:42]  what's a weak master?
[16:42]  the correct formula for M/s is a constant application of force equal to the girl's ability to resist it
[16:42] <{ariella}DG> a Master who allows a slave to walk all over him 
[16:42]  (resist being a physics term ... not to imply that she should be willfully ristant)
[16:42] * Skye`` listens
[16:43]  weak : apathetic, lazy, undicisplined, variable
[16:43]  I am sure there are other traits of weakness
[16:43]  complacent even
[16:43] * R-Flagg has that problem
[16:43] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:44]  what problem?
[16:44] <{ariella}DG> consistency is security for a slave 
[16:44]  complacency dina
[16:44]  yes ariella
[16:44] * felicity{STI} agrees with ariella
[16:45] * Skye`` always agrees with ari
[16:45]  slaves do much better in a consistent environment
[16:45] * {ariella}DG smiles at Mistress Skye``
[16:45]  but consistent does not mean easy
[16:45]  but dont slaves need a changes too
[16:45]  it means that the Master never gives her an inch, and certainly never lets her take a mile
[16:46]  slaves do need change ...
[16:46]  never gives her an inch?
[16:46]  a constant growth as it were
[16:46] <{ariella}DG> a good Master knows the slave well enough to when to push 
[16:46]  smiles
[16:47]  yes ... the steady wind in which she grows strong
[16:47] * {ariella}DG smiles at Master
[16:47]  ohhh dina thinks she needs a lot of growing
[16:47]  weak slaves are the bane of good Masters
[16:47]  says what he means and means what he says
[16:47] <{ariella}DG> would You say it is all intertwined in the trust aspect of the Master/slave relationship Master Flagg?
[16:47]  absolutely
[16:48]  as I have said many times,
[16:48]  trust is key
[16:48]  smiles
[16:48] * kishy nods
[16:48]  without trust , the whole thing falls apart
[16:48]  Master Flagg?  
[16:48] * Skye`` nods
[16:48]  what is 'bane'?
[16:48]  how can a girl respong to force if she does not trust its source?
[16:48]  yes felicity?
[16:48]  oh
[16:48]  bane ... enemy of
[16:48]  please
[16:48]  ohh
[16:49]  thank you Master
[16:49]  now, poll time:
[16:49]   smiles
[16:50]  how many of you (girls) think you would respond positively to being forced to do something?
[16:50]   raises her hand
[16:50]  by a trusted Master or a stranger?
[16:50] * {ariella}DG raises her hand.. its the trust with Master
[16:50]  if i trusted the person yes
[16:50] * R-Flagg counts 8 girls
[16:50]  yes trust is accepted
[16:50] * felicity{STI} is thinking on it
[16:51]  if always been forced than no
[16:51]  positive with a Man kishy trusts
[16:51] * lina{D^d} stretches up a hand
[16:52]  if it was a trusted person, one you trusted to do what was best...and not extreme force like the hurricane, then yes
[16:52] <{ariella}DG> sometimes there is a tad bit of fear of new things and a push can also be needed 
[16:53]  true
[16:53]  gia has problems with the term 'forced' Master Flagg...being 'stretched' to do something 'beyond' her .....if that is what you speak of then yes  Master
[16:53]  a bit of force, even from a stranger, can be erotic
[16:53]  yet a good Master will know the limits of his slave
[16:53]  but cant be forced all the time
[16:53]  sorta like an understanding force
[16:53]  ash ... I think is the only holdout
[16:54] * ash{Brin} rises hand wiggles fingers
[16:54] * gia{FH} chuckles to felicitys fwords
[16:54]  but otherwise, 7 yeses (with some qualifications)
[16:54]  ok, 8
[16:54] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:54] * felicity{STI} smiles at gia
[16:54]  all of you acknowledge the need for some kind of force
[16:54] * kishy nods.. its a need
[16:54]  need..hmm
[16:55]  trusted, non-huricane, stretching force,
[16:55]  but still force
[16:55]  giggles
[16:55] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:55]  On "forced" collars,
[16:55]  willing force?
[16:55]  if gia is willing how can it be force please Master?
[16:55]  this is why I do not completely dislike them,
[16:55]  trust implies willingness
[16:56]  true, gia
[16:56]  if it were someone you hated, gia?
[16:56] * gia{FH} hushes and saves it for later
[16:56]  if a girl needs someone to make her submit,
[16:56]  or that you knew would not be a good Master to you?
[16:56] <`Mecurio> willingness implies trust
[16:56]  then there needs to be a level of force from somewhere
[16:56]  like maybe in a certain area?
[16:56]  unwilling to submit, she means
[16:57]  if a girl complies, she changes her nick,
[16:57] * gia{FH} tries to comprehend
[16:57]  agrees'
[16:57]  then she submitted at least at that point in time to the force of that Master
[16:57]  yaz does not need to be forced to submit constantly, she enjoys submission, but perhaps a good Master will challenge her to grow, examine HIm and herself, and grow
[16:57]  thinks dina needs a little force to submit
[16:57]  whooops..growing a lot here ;)
[16:58] * R-Flagg nods to dina
[16:58] * felicity{STI} thinks all need some force in some areas...to grow
[16:58] * yazminah nods to felicity{STI}
[16:58]  or push
[16:58]  I think all girls need something to force them to make that choice
[16:58]  exactly felicity
[16:58]  direction 
[16:58]  which choice, Master Flagg?
[16:58]  yes, gia
[16:59]  to submit, yazminah ... either to a collar or to a new thing her Master wants from her,
[16:59]  its in dina's desire to submit but than she holds herself back
[16:59]  submission is a never ending journey
[16:59] * felicity{STI} nodss to dina
[16:59]  You are assuming a girl won't naturally seek to be challenged, Master Flagg? cause there are times yaz begs for something new to do
[17:00] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:00]  its not gias intent to be disagreeable Master Flagg....perhaps its a matter of symantics or specifics but .....gia as of now is online only and does not comprehend 'forcing anything online' 
[17:00] * R-Flagg is making no assumptions
[17:00]  only stating My opinions
[17:00]  okay gia
[17:00]  mmmm.... I might add my view....
[17:00]  certainly Da^id
[17:00]  true, gia, because online is different
[17:00]  just one remark:
[17:00] * felicity{STI} listens to Master Da^id
[17:01] * dina{STI} listens
[17:01]  there's a difference in how I see it and how I handle it as tavern owner.....
[17:01]  I agree with you, R-Flagg, that some forced collarings come out of that need to have an element of force into it....
[17:01]  in that meaning I agree that there's a good pint in some forced collarings....
[17:02]  but I saw too much abuse of it - not in violating girls (every girl can use the X to escape) - but in making a playscene out of it
[17:02]  that's why I dont like it, it supports just playing it
[17:03]  and usually dont last very long
[17:03]   listens, enjoying the discussion
[17:03] * felicity{STI} hasn't ever seen a forced collaring
[17:03]  yaz thinks a true Master, before force collaring a girl, should know her, and know they are compatible, at least in long-term goals and view of Gor for example
[17:03] * dina{STI} doesnt comment
[17:04]  but the point was to be pushed by someone we trust.. not a stranger forcing some steel around the neck.. (was forced collared by a stranger .. for about 5 minutes)
[17:04]  there are some FW are 'forced' to submit to a collar some times 3 times a day....gias watched it Masters
[17:04] * R-Flagg nods
[17:04]  yes, I have also seen it where it has forced the girl to make up her mind ... she has wanted to submit, but been afraid ... the "force" of a collar makes her finally agree
[17:04]  .
[17:04]  "Forcing" example:
[17:04]  on a few occassions, a girl has said something to Me and I have asked for a source, and she has not wanted to give it to Me.  Not a good idea.  On pretty much all occassions, I have eventually "forced" the girl to do it, even though it is totally online.  And gia, you have experienced that, no?
[17:04]  if He feels it would be a good match, then a forced collaring can be successful, but He should not force collar a girl just to own another one
[17:04]  gia, thats exactly what I meant
[17:04]  they return to FW status and go do it again
[17:04]   smiles to Master `
[17:05]   smiles to Master `Mecurio
[17:05]  yes Master Flagg.....gia has 
[17:05]  it was a nasty experience 
[17:05] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:05] * gia{FH} laughs
[17:06]  anyways girls ... discussion is over
[17:06] * R-Flagg sits

    Source: geocities.com/Slave_traders_inn