STI Log: June 16, 2004: Modified to remove greets and other unrelated comments and actions and fix My bad spelling (where I noticed)

[16:11]  Stop serving now, its training hour
[16:11] * barbara{Kur} crawls back from Master Sennot's feet to the slave furs for the class
[16:11] * R-Flagg stands
[16:11]  so the first topic I have for today is "The Fine Art of Begging"
[16:12] * kishy smiles as she listens
[16:12]  I have selected this because so often I have heard girls say that they are not getting what they want or need
[16:12] * Sennot nods
[16:12]  same here
[16:12]  now of course, we all understand that a Master is under NO obligation to give any girl anything,
[16:13]  from trivial to extreme, everything is ultimately under His control,
[16:13]  but
[16:13]  that does not mean a girl should not beg
[16:13]  in fact, just the oposite
[16:13]  the scrolls are full of examples where girls are made to beg,
[16:14]  Indeed so
[16:14]  and the commentary generally points out how much more attractive and stimulating a girl is when she is begging
[16:14] * Sennot nods
[16:15]  she could be begging for something trivial, or something extreme
[16:15]  but by begging, she learns ... and is made to know ... her place,
[16:15]  but more than that, she feels her place, and with begging, learns that it is right
[16:15]  Now ... there is a downside of course
[16:16]  what's the upside
[16:16]  insincerity, sarcasm, lip, whining, nagging,
[16:16]  begging can be seen to involve this
[16:17]  watch for it ... as a girl should not infuriate her Master through begging
[16:17]  the upside ... for the Master ... is generally a feeling of control,
[16:17]  I do
[16:17]  a knowledge and understanding of His role in controlling His slave
[16:18]  it is control and freely given
[16:18]  if she never begs, He never gets that kind of feedback
[16:18]  sure, He might still be in control,
[16:18] * Da^id nods
[16:18]  but there is just one element of the dynamic that is not explored is all
[16:18] * Sennot nods
[16:18]  which is?
[16:19]  "begging" ... testing submission via a girl begging her Master for whatever
[16:19]  if she never begs, that aspect of slavery is never explored
[16:19]  that is not wrong
[16:19]  is begging to be equated with asking?
[16:19]  similar yes
[16:20]  asking would be a very minor form
[16:20]  nods
[16:20]  begging is just a bit more intense in my view
[16:20]  begging is showing her need
[16:20]  need for what?
[16:20]  and *knowing* that the Master may or may not grant the request
[16:20]  I mean, she askes, he responds
[16:20]  need for attention, need for food, need for whatever
[16:21]  nods
[16:21]  when a girl exposes her needs to her Master, 
[16:21]  she actually gives Him additional control of her
[16:21]  it is subtle, perhaps
[16:21]  well, not always
[16:21]  but it is a part of the entire submission process
[16:22]  sure, you can beat a doormat into submission,
[16:22]  you mean, asking (begging) is
[16:22]  but I *prefer* a girl who gives Me her submission willingly
[16:22] * {ariella}DG smiles
[16:22]  yes ... it is like a step for her
[16:22]  even begging permission to enter a room
[16:22]  on IRC
[16:23]  it is all part of that dynamic
[16:23]  yes it is
[16:23]  it places in her mind the idea that she must always submit
[16:23]  I know there are exceptions to things
[16:23]  so Randal do you equate the level of her submission to the frequency of her begging?>
[16:24]  not frequency.....
[16:24]  not directly, but I believe that if a girl never begs,
[16:24]  but honesty and intensity of it
[16:24]  she may never feel she has submitted
[16:24] * Sennot nods
[16:24]  for example,
[16:24]  It makes sense to me
[16:24]  when she begs a collar
[16:24]  that is a big step for most girls,
[16:25]  and I bet a lot of the girls here have felt the Master out first
[16:25]  "Master, if a girl submitted to you, would you consider putting your collar on her?"
[16:25]  although I understand this,
[16:25]  it is a bit like putting your toes in the water to test it before jumping in
[16:25] * Sennot listens
[16:26]  personally ... I never *make* the descision to collar until I *hear* her beg
[16:26]  that is how I know her submission is not conditional
[16:26] * kishy thinks most collars are offered.. not begged.. just begged "formally"
[16:27]  that would not be good
[16:27]  that could be kishy, but I have never "offered" a collar
[16:27]  it must be unconditional
[16:27]  kishy never begged one in fact.. REALLY begged..
[16:27] * R-Flagg thinks He may have offered STI to girls in awkward situations
[16:27]  but not R-F
[16:27] * kishy smiles
[16:28] * Sennot nods
[16:28]  let me introduce another thought.....
[16:28]  or lets say a question:
[16:28]  certainly
[16:28] * R-Flagg listens for a moment
[16:28] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:28]  lets imagine a girl who nearly never begs - cause she thinks: I am slave - Ill be given what my Master / the Free want me to get - so I shouldnt beg
[16:28] * Messick listens
[16:29]  ahhhh
[16:29]  its seen as a kind of deep submissive feeling
[16:29] * Sennot chuckles
[16:29]  some girls feel like that, hating to be seen as whining - how would we see that?
[16:30]  *I* would see that a a porential for problems
[16:30] <{ariella}DG> its all in the presentation 
[16:30]  even if she was to beg to serve her Master
[16:30] <`Mecurio> I would look upon it as the girl not being truly submissive
[16:30]  I would say we should simply inform her that it is pleasing to be begged sincerely
[16:30]  "Master, may a girl massage your shoulders"
[16:30]  well, ill go deeper in that:
[16:30]  oh how so Mecurio?
[16:31]  she might beg to serve and such - but never beg to get something for herself or be permitted whatever
[16:31]  I agree Mercurio
[16:31] <`Mecurio> because in order to be submissive one must have true and genuine submissive traits
[16:31]  but Da^id, that is a catch-22 too,
[16:31]  *Laughs*
[16:32]  because by not taking care of herself, she is never going to increase her appeal to her Master
[16:32] <`Mecurio> to expect to be offered a kolar does not show that
[16:32] * Da^id agrees with R-Flagg and Mecurio
[16:32]  taking care like how ? 
[16:32]  now ...
[16:33]  to me a sincere deeply felt beg is equal to submitting
[16:33]  if she dosen't have submissive traits, she's not submissive
[16:33]  what are submissive traits ?
[16:33]  the reason the topic is "The FINE ART of Begging",
[16:33]  is because it is easy for a girl to slip from begging as an act of submission,
[16:33]  still don't know what the difference between begging and asking is
[16:33]  to begging as an act of agression (whining, nagging, etc)
[16:34]  this is when the Master needs to see the difference and punish her if necessary
[16:34] <`Mecurio> begging is feeling
[16:34]  and how is asking (begging) a submissive trait?
[16:34] <`Mecurio> real feeling
[16:34] * felicity{STI} listens
[16:34]  asking is not so much submissive "Want a coke?"
[16:34]  real feeling is asking?????????????
[16:34] <{ariella}DG> submissive traits are obedience attitude trustworthy acceptance 
[16:34]  "What time is it?"
[16:34]  that's asking
[16:35] <`Mecurio> asking is not a submissive trait
[16:35]  wait.....
[16:35]  I see linas first question as important
[16:35]  begging is asking for something that needs to be permitted
[16:35] * felicity{STI} would like to know submissive traits also
[16:36]  <+lina{D^d}> taking care like how ?
[16:36]  a submissive trait is to acknowledge someone else's authority
[16:36]  to beg permission (for anything) is submissive
[16:36]  well asking permission is that
[16:36]  that too
[16:37]  if the person has no authority, why ask
[16:37]  asking to me is casual
[16:37]  begging never is
[16:37] <{ariella}DG> asking is vanilla 
[16:37]  like may I go to the bathroom, is that casual or begging?
[16:37]  I think a slave can ask a Master something and it would not be begging
[16:37]  "would you like a coke, Master"
[16:37]  that's not really begging
[16:38]  "may a girl bring you a coke, Master"
[16:38]  depends
[16:38]  now it is a bit more submissive with an obvious element of desire on her part to please
[16:38] <`Mecurio> its hard to define a submissive trait
[16:38]  sure ... submission is a topic unto itsself
[16:38]  seems like all we're doing is discussing words
[16:38] <`Mecurio> in order to feel it it has to come from deep inside of the girl
[16:39]  I want to return to one sentence of R-Flagg:
[16:39]  sure Da^id
[16:39]  <@R-Flagg> because by not taking care of herself, she is never going to increase her appeal to her Master
[16:39] <`Mecurio> only she knows the true feeling
[16:39]  you mean deep as in may I bring you a coke
[16:39]  what did you mean by that?
[16:39]  I meant that if she never begs for anything for herself,
[16:39]  i want to not again define submission .....
[16:39]  she is never going to be able to show her improvement as a person
[16:40]  and anything stationary eventually stagnates and decays
[16:40]  I have a question as to that Flagg
[16:40]  what could it be as an example?
[16:40]  "Master, may a girl take an art class" (if she is interested in art)
[16:40]  anything to better herself
[16:40]  sure Messick
[16:40]  ah, ok
[16:40] * R-Flagg listens
[16:41]  you talk about her improving herself......what about the master?
[16:41]  or is it a one way street?
[16:41]  as in the Master improving Himself?
[16:41]  oh.... she grows to please me more
[16:41]  yeah
[16:41]  or in Him improving her?
[16:41]  him improving himself
[16:42]  I think Masters, by their very nature, should always be improving,
[16:42] <{ariella}DG> He improves her also 
[16:42]  that is the goal
[16:42]  with respect to their girl,
[16:42]  (girls)
[16:42] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:42]  I think a Master is wise to listen to them,
[16:42]  I'd like to involve the girls:
[16:42]  well the same can be said of a slave,,,,,by their nature they should always be improving
[16:42]  ultimately a girl will know her Master almost as well as He does
[16:42]  just to bring in practical experience from them:
[16:43]  yes! exactly
[16:43]  which is why the doormat does not fit
[16:43]  sure dosen't
[16:43] * barbara{Kur} sighs softly as she listens
[16:43]  the doormat sits around and waits for her Master to do all the work
[16:43]  Id like to know from those collared by her Master or those who once were: what kind of things did you beg for as example?
[16:43] * Da^id listens to the girls
[16:44] * Sennot listens
[16:44] * {ariella}DG begs for alot of things to go out on special occasions, haircuts and to get her nails done
[16:44] * R-Flagg wonders if We put them to sleep
[16:44] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:44]  ok.... barbara?
[16:44] <{ariella}DG> begs for releases and begs for releases 
[16:45]  hmmmm my slave dosen't
[16:45]  girl has no comment, Master Da^id
[16:45]  hate it if she did
[16:45]  lina and gia?
[16:45]  the others?
[16:45]  beg for permission to cum. beg for not wearing the plug. beg to be marked by Him.
[16:45] * Da^id smiles
[16:46] <{ariella}DG> smiles 
[16:46]  kishy begged rl for things she wanted or needed.. be it more time with him or a new skirt.. but mainly for NOT doing things
[16:46] <{ariella}DG> that is a good one kishy sis 
[16:46]  oh kishy?
[16:46]  hmmmmm why would a girl ask for that?
[16:47]  like.. please dont make me do this.. or that
[16:47] <{ariella}DG> when a girl doesnt desire to do something hard she begs Him not to ask her too 
[16:47]  oh yeah, like what?
[16:47] <`Mecurio> to achieve total control a Master should be involved in every aspect of a slaves life
[16:47] * R-Flagg nods
[16:47]  anything.. from sexual things to shopping or chores
[16:48]  that is one thing that is also fundamental in the M/s dynamic ....
[16:48]  when a girl says "such and such comes first"
[16:48] <`Mecurio> and if she cannot give that she can never be a total slave
[16:48]  she is not in an M/s relationship
[16:48] * R-Flagg nods
[16:48]  if she sets her own priorities you mean?
[16:49] <`Mecurio> yes
[16:49]  now, girls ... do not jump into totally 100% committed M/s relationships without establishing trust in your Master
[16:49]  I agree
[16:49]  you people, if you'll forgive me, seem to have a lot of probs with your slaves
[16:49] * barbara{Kur} guesses she'll never be a true slave then
[16:49]  i have not been in a M/s releationsip.. but to live with the natural dominant is close i think..
[16:49]  why barbara?
[16:50]  I have none at all, Messick
[16:50]  neither do I
[16:50]  not a lot Messick ... they are just things to work out ... to explore
[16:50]  because she sets her priorities .. girls kids come first always 
[16:50]  to learn
[16:50]  nothing is ever perfect
[16:50] * felicity{STI} agrees with barbara
[16:50]  there is an example barbara
[16:50]  I like that one because everyone can agree to the sentiment
[16:50]  if there are no probs, why all this talk?
[16:50]  but it is not M/s
[16:51]  M/s is you trust the Master
[16:51] <{ariella}DG> that is how we grow.. its not always yes Master.. there are struggles 
[16:51]  some real life things have to come first, if only online relationship...like job, kids..
[16:51]  and He comes first
[16:51]  period
[16:51]  yes
[16:51]  BUT
[16:51]  He then might tell you "look after your kids"
[16:51]  but HE gave the command ... not you
[16:51]  ohhh
[16:51]  a real Master understands her needs and priorities
[16:51]  why does he have to tell her that, she knows it
[16:51]  and establishes the right balance
[16:51]  yeah, sure Messick ... when it is working,
[16:52] <`Mecurio> to achieve control Messick
[16:52]  but if the topic is not broached,
[16:52]  when what is working?
[16:52]  then it gets confused
[16:52]  a well known figure in literature is quoted to have declared: "I am fond of rites and habbits"
[16:52]  I dont want lina to beg to buy an apple pie.....
[16:52]  this girl hasn't been a personal slave..and wants to learn about all this
[16:52]  she just does it, weather he likes it or not, they're her kids....speaking of online of course
[16:53]  but I might tell her things in which she must get my permission, and if I do so she will beg
[16:53]  I kind of mix online and offline 
[16:53]  especially today
[16:53] * R-Flagg is a bit under the weather
[16:53] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:53]  ok....
[16:53]  well I see that as a gradual thing
[16:53]  lets draw lines:
[16:53]  but offline ... if a woman says "I will be your slave but My kids come first"
[16:53]  like wading into the ocean
[16:54]  she might as well be declaring her interest in the game ... not a r/l M/s relationship
[16:54]  here we talk first about online relations which include demands on the girls rl
[16:55] * Messick listens to Da^id
[16:55]  pure online is rather straightforward,
[16:55]  r/l comes first
[16:55]  I stipulate now that slavery is on a not to interfere basis with a girls responsibilities to family
[16:55]  career
[16:55]  but if a relationship is more than just online,
[16:55]  then the conflicts start to appear
[16:55]  that changes things
[16:55]  there are fields in which I define my will to my girl - and she will follow that......
[16:56] * Sennot nods
[16:56]  If I want her to wear certain kinds of clothes she will or will beg exemptions
[16:56] <`Mecurio> the girl shouldnt be here if she has a stable real life
[16:56] * R-Flagg laughs
[16:56]  r/l you mean Da^id?
[16:56]  the other hard part is that needs and expectations change
[16:56]  yes
[16:56]  hmmmmm
[16:56] * R-Flagg nods
[16:56]  if I tell lina only to wear skirts - that would be an example
[16:56]  never hears of such a thing
[16:57]  I have demanded a lot from My "online" slaves that they must do offline
[16:57]  hmmmmm
[16:57]  interesting
[16:57]  what sorts of things, Master Flagg?
[16:57]  its common
[16:57]  really?
[16:57]  besides what Master Da^id mentioned
[16:57]  that marks a progression
[16:58]  well, I recently commanded tali to send Me a pic of herself every day
[16:58]  not a big command,
[16:58]  but it is something she does not like to do
[16:58]  really
[16:58]  ohhh
[16:58]  I have given other girls other commands
[16:58]  you have???????
[16:58]  the size of the requirement varies
[16:58]  Da^id if I recall ... you once had a girl cut her hair
[16:59]  that was no command - she did it cause she knew id like it
[16:59]  ahh
[16:59]  ok
[16:59] * felicity{STI} listens
[16:59]  not quite the same then
[16:59]  like linas piercing - i didnt command that
[16:59]  My last r/l slave, I gave Many Many commands to
[16:59]  was more: done to please me
[16:59]  she had a drug addiction problem
[16:59] * Sennot nods
[17:00]  and for the most part, that is now beat
[17:00] <{ariella}DG> the more the Master controls the slave the more growth there is 
[17:00]  how do you know if your online slave does r/l what you tell her to
[17:00]  but she needed Me to command her to stay away from anything that influenced her to do drugs
[17:00]  I trust her
[17:00]  it must be on faith
[17:00]  and trust
[17:00]  well the pics are easy to figure out
[17:00] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:00]  growth, what kind of "growth"
[17:01]  so gia
[17:01]  one girl ... I did not own her but ...
[17:01]  hmmm can't imagine telling a girl to do r/l things
[17:01]  you seem quiet
[17:01]  well, she had an "egg"
[17:01] <{ariella}DG> growth in submission to Master.. more control from Him 
[17:01]  not in 6yrs on Gor
[17:01]  and her Master commanded her to wear it all day while she did chores
[17:01] <{ariella}DG> doing real life things brings out emotions and feelings 
[17:01]  but from commands back to begging:
[17:01]  an egg?
[17:01]  what kind of control ariella?
[17:01]  like a vibrator
[17:01]  ohhh
[17:01]  small enough to insert and keep inside
[17:02] * felicity{STI} blushes
[17:02]  my girl knows things I love.... and she might beg me to be permitted to do such a thing - Id be pleased
[17:02] <{ariella}DG> control in all aspects Master Messick.. daily rules and rituals not only sexual 
[17:02]  nods at ariella
[17:02]  she said she used to be dusting or vaccuuming and suddenly explode in an orgasm
[17:02] <{ariella}DG> no red lipstick, no panites all types of things that remind her she is His slave and under His command 
[17:02]  vacuuming.... I knew these machines were a hot thing
[17:02] * R-Flagg nods to ariella
[17:02]  yeah well
[17:03] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:03]  no panties is becoming a cliche
[17:03] * felicity{STI} giggles
[17:03]  lol Da^id
[17:03] <`Mecurio> cliche or not , its still a rule
[17:03]  anyway ....
[17:03] <{ariella}DG> and it shows He cares 
[17:03]  maybe we should have a channel discussion about when a slave can think for herself
[17:03]  this topic took up all of the hour
[17:03]  lol
[17:03]  so I will do the other one another time
[17:03] <`Mecurio> and its complied with
[17:04]  sure
[17:04]  I have done so
[17:04]  but to just touch on it ... "Beauty" is related to submission
[17:04]  Ill ask a final question to be answred by girls only:
[17:04] <{ariella}DG> He can trust she does as he wishes.. and He can also check at any time 
[17:04] <`Mecurio> a slave can think for herself when she is in the work place
[17:04]  or do you want to start the next topic, R-Flagg?
[17:05]  no no Da^id ... I am done
[17:05] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:05] * R-Flagg sits
[17:05]  ok, girls:
[17:05]  its not about being able to think but about his final decision i think
[17:06]  *listens*
[17:06] * felicity{STI} listens
[17:06]  imagine youd like to please your Master in a special way.... would you do it by begging something?
[17:06]  if Yes: what could it be as example?
[17:06] * barbara{Kur} would have to, beg to know what is special to Him
[17:07]  why not just ask barb?
[17:07]  girls?
[17:07]  now after the discussion maybe.. usually not but do it for him..
[17:07]  if it is a 'special way'  Masters....gia'd think possibly of not begging but of surprizing
[17:07] * lina{D^d} 's brain starts tickling
[17:07]  why ask Master Messick? 
[17:07]  ok gia ....
[17:07]  ariella?
[17:07]  i think now i would beg.. to do it for him
[17:07] <{ariella}DG> surprising as long as it doesnt go against what the girl knows Master would not like 
[17:08]  begging is better gia
[17:08]  lina, still tickling on that?
[17:08]  beg for something..that you know you hate but also knows that He loves it
[17:08]  how do you know what he likes or dislikes if you don't ask
[17:09] * Da^id nods
[17:09] <{ariella}DG> smiles at lina 
[17:09]  good point, lina.... and I would be aware of that!
[17:09]  like the saying goes, if you don't know ...ask
[17:09]  if it is 'special' Master Sennot....it'd be a surprize 
[17:09]  after spending time with one's owner.. one will know what He likes or dislike
[17:09]  ok, girls .....
[17:09] * barbara{Kur} shrugs and leaves the merry-go- round , go without her
[17:09]  in gias' instance
[17:09] * felicity{STI} listens and thinks
[17:09]  if lina wouldnt know what I like after 28 months in my collar - wouldnt it be strange?
[17:10] <{ariella}DG> yes Master Da^id it would be 
[17:10]  mmmmmmmmm
[17:10] * lina{D^d} nods nods to her owner's question
[17:10]  yes, Master
[17:10]  one would not say.......'may gia give you a special surprise, please Master?'
[17:10]  *Laughs* at gia
[17:10]  why not?
[17:10]  ok.....
[17:10]  lol
[17:10]  its not a surprize then Master Messick
[17:10]  Thank you again, R-Flagg.... it was a facinating topic.....
[17:10]  and I look forward to the beauty-issue next time.....
[17:11] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:11]  the training hour is over now
[17:11]  it was stimulating
[17:11]  anytime Da^id ... as long as it is Wednesdays at 4

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