STI Log: June 23, 2004: Modified to remove greets and other unrelated comments and actions and fix My bad spelling (where I noticed)
[16:09] * R-Flagg smiles and stands
[16:09] * lina{D^d} applauses
[16:10] * kishy smiles to Master R-Flagg
[16:10] * wolfsfire{STI} looks what you applauding for hun
[16:10] first I want to preface today's topics with a few personal comments,
[16:10] * wolfsfire{STI} listens
[16:10] * Messick listens
[16:10] * alabaster tips a chocolate gaze upward, listening
[16:10] 1. Almost everything I say/do is just what works for Me personally,
[16:10] I know that Gor is full of individuals, and everyone will do things a little bit differently
[16:11] nothing I say (well, a few exceptions perhaps) is absolute
[16:11] so, if something does not work for you ... that's fine
[16:11] 2. Not everything I do/say is strictly Gorean
[16:12] I have been involved in Master/slave relationships r/l for more than 20 years
[16:12] Gorean, only about 6-8
[16:12] so, I do not always see things exactly the way the Books do
[16:13] 3. Most of My comments are about r/l ... but there are a few things that are online only
[16:13] if ever you are confused, please make sure I specify which I am talking about
[16:13] k
[16:13] that said:
[16:13] Topic: Ultimate Submission
[16:14] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:14] I have heard it said many times online and a few times in r/l,
[16:14] that a girl has a particular restriction or limit that she will not allow someone to cross
[16:15] frankly, that is not M/s
[16:15] even statements like "My kids come first" eliminate the M/s dynamic
[16:15] now, do not get Me wrong,
[16:15] * alabaster listens
[16:15] I have kids
[16:15] * Messick listens
[16:15] I understand how important they are
[16:15] * wolfsfire{STI} listens and her brain churns already
[16:15] but submission, at least the kind I expect from My slaves,
[16:16] forgoes limits and replaces it with Trust
[16:16] I have spoken of Trust before,
[16:16] but Trust is not a duty
[16:16] trust is an absolute
[16:16] (My one exception to the "no absolutes" rule)
[16:16] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:17] if you do not trust your Master or your slave,
[16:17] then the dynamic is limited
[16:17] I know full well what this can lead to
[16:17] Master, aly has always understood, through her own interaction, that trust is something grown, it is difficult to say at the moment a girl first submits she will have no limits to that Man...
[16:17] thus Trust, for either member of the relationship, is very hard
[16:17] * R-Flagg nods
[16:18] yes alabaster, quite correct
[16:18] but hard limits limit trust
[16:18] trusts no one not even herself ... so far to that issue
[16:18] well, hard limits not only limit trust, but growth as well..smiles
[16:18] statements like "My kids come first" means no one is trustable
[16:18] yes ... that is true too
[16:18] trust is hard
[16:18] and it needs to grow
[16:18] but without it,
[16:19] trust in what?
[16:19] full, complete, unfettered submission is impossible
[16:19] a person who can honestly say "i will cross this line for no one" perhaps shouldn't be involved in a M/s relationship anyway
[16:19] basically for a girl, trust in her Master
[16:19] for a Master, trust in His slave
[16:19] remember ... r/l, not necessarily Gorean
[16:19] what's that got to do with taking care of her kids?
[16:20] yes alabaster ... that is true,
[16:20] but
[16:20] trust that he will do the right things, trust he wont hurt you , trust he will trust you enough to except the gift a slave is giving in submission , trust in not being the emotional waste of him ... so on ... to much
[16:20] it is also possible to redefine the limits,
[16:20] * alabaster listens
[16:20] * R-Flagg nods to wolfsfire
[16:20] for example
[16:21] Kids (one of My favourite examples because everyone understands the priority involved)
[16:21] been their done that and i will to this day say do to that i made mistakes with my kids ... so now aye my kids will come before any Partner in my life ... that does not hurt the trust it is a fact
[16:21] for a slave, she needs to know she can trust her Master in the issues surrounding her kids
[16:22] so rather than "My kids come first",
[16:22] she should know what her Master's intentions are for her kids
[16:22] * wolfsfire{STI} listens
[16:22] if He is not in harmony with her desires,
[16:22] you sound as though r/l and online are the same rather than mutually exclusive
[16:23] then the M/s between them will at best be temporary
[16:23] nods
[16:23] I do not think they are the same,
[16:23] but I do not think they are mutually exclusive either
[16:23] of course they're not
[16:23] * Da^id agrees with R-Flagg
[16:23] one is r/l the other is r/p
[16:24] well, this conversation right now is technically online
[16:24] you cannot mix the two
[16:24] * barbara{KK} tilts her head at that one but says nothing
[16:24] I do not see this as r/p
[16:24] online and rp are two very different things
[16:24] oh, how so?
[16:24] its not r/p
[16:24] I have relationships with people online that I feel are very close to real
[16:24] yes they are Da^id
[16:24] online doesn't necessarily mean 'not real'
[16:24] sure, when I pull out My whip and threaten lina, it is just a bit of fun
[16:25] not r/l so much,
[16:25] aly feels things here, the emotions she portrays are excruciatingly real
[16:25] * Da^id grins
[16:25] but My relationship with lina is still rather real in its other contexts
[16:25] how so
[16:25] as with everyone I know here
[16:25] let me say a word on that....
[16:25] * R-Flagg nods to Da^id
[16:25] * alabaster listens quietly
[16:26] Messick, if the online based relation we have here quite often would be seen as r/p, it would be a deep misunderstanding....
[16:26] this is not a BDSM surrounding....
[16:26] and exactly there you find the distinction:
[16:26] * Messick listens
[16:26] in an online gorean surrounding I deal with real people and their real feelings and desires
[16:26] its real interpersonal relations
[16:27] * Messick nods
[16:27] and therefor so many of our online based relations touch alot of the offline life
[16:27] still its not what R-Flagg describes and lives as rl relations, but its way closer to that than to roleplay
[16:28] if someone would handle it other online gor would be the wrong place
[16:28] ok
[16:28] thing is..I have a real relationship with my slave, and I wouldn't dream of a relationship like I here online
[16:28] * Da^id nods at R-Flagg
[16:28] * lina{D^d} nods nods to her owner's words
[16:29] now ... Ultimate Submission, this I think can only fully happen in r/l
[16:29] but online has its value, as someone can experience a great deal of the feelings without quite the same trust needs as in r/l
[16:29] nor do I want her involved with people like I've run across online
[16:29] * R-Flagg smiles at Messick
[16:29] yeah there is that
[16:29] aly doesn't think they are comparable, but, it doesn't make one less real, because you cannot touch the person you speak to physically, the mind is our most powerful organ and tool
[16:29] there are four aspects to submission
[16:29] physical of course, which is very very limited online
[16:29] there is no such thing as "Ultimate Submission" one is either subbmissive or not
[16:30] intellectual, spiritual and emotional however are all possible online
[16:30] * R-Flagg thinks
[16:30] * barbara{KK} smiles
[16:30] by Ultimate Submission, I do not mean the tendency to be submissive,
[16:30] it's like the term "growing in one's submission"
[16:31] silly
[16:31] I mean the complete surender of all that one is to another
[16:31] that's like saying growing in the fact one has red hair
[16:31] * wolfsfire{STI} listens
[16:31] it may well be the desire of every submissive to be this way,
[16:31] not mine
[16:31] but thats me
[16:31] but not every submissive achieves it
[16:32] * wolfsfire{STI} smiles
[16:32] fair enough wolfsfire, but that would imply you are either not submissive (as Messick says it is an absolute)
[16:32] one dosen't achive anything one is submissive or not
[16:32] or you are fooling yourself
[16:32] you don't believe a girl's submission to her Master gets deeper with time, Master Messick?
[16:32] no ,of course not
[16:33] or, as I believe, submissiveness is not an absolute ... and everyone achieves their own level of submission
[16:33] * lina{D^d} blinks
[16:33] she dont know what she is at best she is trying to be herself
[16:33] * barbara{KK} just smiles as she listens
[16:33] it's a personallity trait
[16:33] * Da^id fully disagrees with Messick
[16:33] nonsense
[16:33] if she has red hair, does that get deeper
[16:33] * barbara{KK} fully agrees with Master Da^id to disagree
[16:33] sure Messick, but there are lots of personality traits that are not absolutes
[16:34] submission is not the same as love for example
[16:34] some of you know lina and me for a while here.....
[16:34] feelings and hair arent the same thing
[16:34] heart and brain different .. organ
[16:34] submission is not one of them
[16:34] and theres no doubt that her submission to me grew tremdously during our 29 months
[16:34] Master Messick...submission is, but there are levels, depths that aren't reached without pursuit, effort...having been there, aly knows...smiles
[16:34] * kishy smiles
[16:34] submission is not the same as love .. thus one can never get mixed up with it
[16:35] love is a topic for another day perhaps
[16:35] (just muddies the water)
[16:35] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:35] * wolfsfire{STI} chuckles
[16:35] no......it's all talk,, like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin
[16:35] does it ever Master R-Flagg
[16:35] so, the moment you put a collar on a slave, she is what she is, and will never change?
[16:35] having never met an angel, I have no idea
[16:35] * lina{D^d} grins and kisses her owner's boot
[16:35] no lina, subbmission is not the same as love, that's why my slave is special
[16:36] because she also loves you Messick?
[16:36] but submission is a feeling like love ..it does grow
[16:36] Messick, maybe you talk about a girl "being submissive" - instead of her submission itself
[16:36] * wolfsfire{STI} listens quietly
[16:36] albaster, of course she will change, but she'll still be a submissive person
[16:37] Da^id, what's the difference?
[16:37] of course she will...in that sense, being a submissive doesn't deepen or change, but the act of it, will.
[16:37] okay ... how about "pious"
[16:37] if a person is pious, are they never able to be more or less devout?
[16:37] * wolfsfire{STI} beginns to think she always be at one level and that is just fine as she feels take her as she is or leave her ...thats the trust she wants to be able to trust that a Master can accept the her and not the what she may can do or is able to do
[16:38] Flagg, you're comparing apples and oranges
[16:38] or: if you are good-food-liking - wouldnt you hopefully grow in being a gourmet?
[16:38] no
[16:38] sad for you
[16:38] perhaps, but as I see it, something about submission changes in a submissive
[16:38] for example, faith can change in a pious person
[16:38] to "grow in submission" is nonsense
[16:39] impossible
[16:39] * barbara{KK} thought this was to be a training/learning session not a knock down drag out debet
[16:39] perhaps we do not have the symantics right, but ***something*** changes in a submissive person too
[16:39] Messick, its not growing in submission.... its that her submission grew
[16:39] okay: Poll:
[16:39] that's the point, you can't grow in submission, it's redundant
[16:40] submissives only (as you would know from experience)
[16:40] do you experience a change in your submissiveness?
[16:40] * R-Flagg listens
[16:40] yes
[16:40] yes
[16:40] yes
[16:40] pleads the 5th
[16:40] * lina{D^d} bobs her head up and down ... "uh huh uh huh"
[16:41] lina?
[16:41] one is submissive yet deepens in submission
[16:41] * wolfsfire{STI} looks around
[16:41] so pretty much all of you experience a change
[16:41] how did you expierence a change in your submission
[16:42] through her owner's guidance
[16:42] * Messick listens
[16:42] it changes every single day ..
[16:42] problem is, I think that Messick is correct in the comment that submissive is an absolute
[16:42] go on
[16:42] right now too
[16:42] but the changing feelings are not accurately defined
[16:42] feelings and submission are two different things, I agree on that
[16:42] aly found, as she served her Master longer, that she wanted to give more, to bend further. to push herself past what was comfortable, the point where she had reached, and show him he had everything, all she could imagine.
[16:43] through guideance and direction of a Masters map......where he wants to place me....how he guides me.....i am submissive but if he gave me a map and said 'go there' i wouldn't have a clue w/o his direction
[16:43] anyway ... My topic was intended to investigate the deepest feeling associated with being submissive to another
[16:43] maybe we can describe it as a potential which can be reached fully or by the circumstances never be fully reached
[16:43] alabaster, kind of going from the chaos to the cosmos, that's what a loving relationship is to achieve
[16:44] ahh is this why they say a girl needs a personal Master ... or is she wrong that for her this can just be fine ... she always gets told why are you online a tavern slave and offline without Master ... your not submissive or better yet you havent met the right Master ... thats bull her submission is what she feels and makes of it ...
[16:44] and that Master Messick, is a *change*
[16:44] indeed alabaster
[16:44] barb, you can't argue with that can you?
[16:44] and at current rate she is fine as she is as she said she trust no one not even herself
[16:44] you can call it what you like, if you don't like the term growing in submission, it doesn't matter, because the change still happens, *smiles* for the better to all involved
[16:45] and how have you changed?
[16:45] who are you asking, Master Messick?
[16:45] you
[16:46] she has changed by striving to be more pleasing, pushing herself, searching her mind and soul for more to offer him, more than she did at first, more that she has found because of her submission.
[16:46] another poll:
[16:46] when a girl submits, at that instant that she begs a collar, has she given up all ties to her own will, or does she even then still hold onto a little something of her own desires?
[16:46] that's a good answer, and your master should be proud
[16:47] * R-Flagg listens
[16:47] she holds on Master at least in my case
[16:47] but am weird
[16:47] * alabaster smiles a bit, and prods a tender subject some more
[16:47] no right/wrong answers btw ... just personal
[16:47] in understanding the depths of what one may have called 'limit'.....when stretched (guided, directed) one is 'taken to fathoms deep' ...understanding that she is pleasing her owner or men more ...she is 'willing' to reach deeper into that understanding
[16:47] aly holds on, but that's part of growth, giving those things up ;)
[16:48] that would need to depend on whether does she dare to take the risk and how much she knows the collar's owner
[16:48] but technically .. she gives her all
[16:48] * wolfsfire{STI} applauds lina
[16:48] not really
[16:48] geez Master Messick.....its a hard one to explain...gia apologize for not being able to clarify thoughts and feelings well
[16:48] just say how you felt lina
[16:48] mine hangs on a bit
[16:48] as well she should
[16:48] well not all not in my case
[16:48] * R-Flagg nods to Messick
[16:48] she's still a person
[16:49] I am not trying to take that away from her
[16:49] I am just asking about the experiences
[16:49] technically she gives her all .. but then if she doesnt know the collar's owner well enough ..shes taking a risk .. cause afterall ..who knows how the Master would be like ? would He exploid her ? abuse her ?
[16:49] theres a lot to think about before begging for a collar if one intends to go deeper and turn it into r/l
[16:49] for example lina?
[16:49] i quickly will tell any Master where to stuff it if he is out of context and does not have nothing to do with my submission ...
[16:50] so ... yes/no from the girls: When i submit, i still hold some desires of my own
[16:51] no
[16:51] well i have it good tavern slave so i can hold back
[16:51] * {ariella}DG desires get lost the focus is on pleasing Master
[16:51] and r/l no Master *grins*
[16:51] yes for me Master R-Flagg
[16:51] yes...didn't say it's the way it should be, but realistically, yes kyra still holds some and works at putting her owner first
[16:51] my slave holds back desires of her own, that's why she's so special
[16:52] a submissive has needs as well
[16:52] again ... there is not a "right" answer
[16:52] * R-Flagg does not want a doormat either
[16:52] ....less you want a mindless robot
[16:52] what I want is someone who gives Me everything she is,
[16:52] hehehe old saying you cant eat everythiing but not need to know everything and specially not if its feelings she wishes to keep to herself
[16:52] including her desires
[16:53] * kyra{F} nods and smiles to Master....then to you it goes and your will as to what to do with it?
[16:53] that does not mean necessarily that she gives them up, however
[16:53] <{ariella}DG> she places them on the back burner
[16:53] yes kyra
[16:53] one must never forget a slave is a treasure, someone to hold and love
[16:54] <{ariella}DG> and then begs Master to address them
[16:54] well, ariella ... it is more that *I* know of them
[16:54] * wolfsfire{STI} listens again as she really dont feel she can add anything to that she is to out off touch
[16:54] I understand linas answer that way that she tells me her desires and it would be my decission how she would follow them or even give them up
[16:54] <{ariella}DG> smiles at Master Flagg
[16:54] some one with a special place in her master's heart
[16:54] <{ariella}DG> it is evident most times when they know each other
[16:54] * R-Flagg smiles at Messick
[16:54] many Masters will tell you that love and M/s don't mix
[16:55] personnally, I think love is unnecessary for M/s
[16:55] a bonus perhaps
[16:55] <{ariella}DG> if the Master is strong it can mix
[16:55] aly would agree, Master R-Flagg.
[16:55] but not a requirement
[16:55] * Messick nods well then they just don't get it
[16:55] * wolfsfire{STI} listens and sighs
[16:55] * lina{D^d} smiles and rubs an apple cheek against her owner's leg
[16:55] * kyra{F} smiles...a girl was recently told that if she takes away the knowledge, holding back her feelings, desires, etc, she is taking something away from her owner, a part of what is theirs, their job or responsibility, or pleasure perhaps....if a girl had no desires, seems she wouldn't be very interesting to own
[16:55] gia does not see how a slave can 'hold back ' a desire of her own.....when she is 'giving all'....all of herself...all she is essentially.....giving her desires too....yet....gia is 'getting' also.....in giving, one 'gets'
[16:55] certainly a plus, if it is there, but, aly can serve someone without loving them. eventually, it comes with slavery anyway.
[16:56] nods
[16:56] * kyra{F} watches the subject change to love and quiets
[16:56] good point, kyra
[16:56] <<<< not doing the love thing again
[16:56] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:56] well you all seem to have a problem, sure glad I don't with my slave
[16:56] thank you Master Da^id
[16:56] * kyra{F} smiles
[16:56] not a problem Messick ... just different
[16:57] * Da^id has no prob with lina
[16:57] nods, yeah
[16:57] * lina{D^d} has absolutely no problem with her owner
[16:57] <{ariella}DG> smiles
[16:57] I eventually have loved all My slaves,
[16:57] but I do not think I loved any of them at the time I collared them
[16:57] hmmmmm
[16:57] I take that first line back
[16:57] then why did you collar them
[16:58] I have owned several slaves I never loved
[16:58] to Master them
[16:58]