STI Log: June 30, 2004: Modified to remove greets and other unrelated comments and actions and fix My bad spelling (where I noticed)

[16:10] * R-Flagg stands having given the necessary 10 minutes for late arrivals
[16:11]  okay ... "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder"
[16:11] * ArccAngel smiles patiently
[16:12] * Da^id is on duty
[16:12]  one of the concepts of Gor that I find quite interesting, as it is written, is the idea of how much more beautiful a woman becomes after she submits to a Master,
[16:12]  the books mention it a lot,
[16:12]  but I have also seen it happen a few times in real life
[16:13]  In general, I think people are far too hard on themselves as to the concept of beauty,
[16:13]  partially because we have a Hollywood or Vogue impression of what beauty is,
[16:14]  and these are rather unrealistic 
[16:14]  nods
[16:14]  naturalness (is that a word?) is what *should* be beautiful,
[16:15]  and Masterful Men and submissive women are natural conditions
[16:15]  (no need to go into abusive men and doormat-like women ... I am talking about the ideals)
[16:16]  when I have watched My slaves submit and develope as slaves,
[16:16]  I have noticed a natural beauty increase in them
[16:16]  perhaps it is a change in them,
[16:16]  but I think it is also a change in Me
[16:17]  I see beyond the surface to what is inside,
[16:17]  that ... core ... that shows their loyalty, devotion, caring,
[16:17]  these are beautiful things
[16:17]  nonsubmissive women have an external beauty sometimes,
[16:18]  but it fades rather quickly
[16:18]  it becomes displaced by selfishness, singularity of mind and will,
[16:18]  have a dozen or so friends in their 50s who be-lie that concept
[16:19]  only talking about My own experiences ArccAngel
[16:19] * ArccAngel nods
[16:19]  not everyone fits the "model"
[16:19]  on either side
[16:19]  but it is something I have seen a number of times
[16:20]  was married to a model for a while, and met a lot of her friends, seems that based on what I have seen the reality is a lot simpler
[16:20] * Maggi nods too. On irc.. I have met people through the mind..and on meeting in real found them not to be as they appear in a photograph. However, after long periods of talking - the outer appearance matters little..because you found the heart of that person. Its probably why I like this medium of communication
[16:20]  with M/s I think you get out what you put in
[16:20]  As always.. you can't "generalize"... But only say what fits most. And in this case I think it's true.
[16:20]  a woman is more beautiful when she feels secure and beautiful
[16:21]  yours only fits for women who are naturaly subs
[16:21] * R-Flagg nods to ArccAngel
[16:21]  slaves/etc
[16:21]  exactly ... and I think slaves often have that above non-slaves
[16:21]  not always perhaps
[16:21]  seldomly, in my experience
[16:21]  slaves are seldom beautiful?
[16:22]  but then perhaps we travel in diferent cirlcles
[16:22]  well, I have never dated a model
[16:22] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:22]  slaves are seldomly secure, content and think of themselves as beautiful
[16:22]  ahhh
[16:22]  when they are not owned, perhaps
[16:22]  We talk of the beauty in women only..what of the beauty in men? The strength, honesty and goodness that makes a man beautiful
[16:23]  being owned is not enough, they have to be owned by the right kind of Man
[16:23] * R-Flagg accepts that
[16:23]  but being owned (by the right Man) does give them the environment to be beautiful
[16:23] * Da^id nods
[16:23]  remember in Gor, most men are slaves... only a handful are warriors or even free
[16:23]  we can talk about Men in a moment Maggi
[16:24]  and only a small fraction of those are good Masters
[16:24] * Maggi nods
[16:25]  Gor of the books or online Gor, ArccAngel?
[16:25]  greetings ash....:)
[16:25]  well both actually. Most men I see here can barrely dom their right hand and are apparently not really very successful in life
[16:25]  same as in the books
[16:26]  mmmm
[16:26]  all dream of being doms, only a few are Masters
[16:26] * Maggi listens
[16:26]  hmmmmm
[16:26]  interesting
[16:26]  amen!
[16:26]  well then, ArccAngel ... as Maggi is looking to this side of the topic as well,
[16:26] * ArccAngel shrugs
[16:26]  still thinks of minnows and candy
[16:26]  just my observations
[16:26]  what makes a Man a Master?
[16:27]  ArccAngel, thats another topic
[16:27]  the girl
[16:27]  but well....
[16:27]  the girl makes a man a master
[16:27]  it's subjective
[16:27]  well actually, if a Master needs a foil to be a Master... how can he be a MAster?
[16:27]  I dont need a girl to be a Master
[16:27]  But each "Master" believes he is so.. but then again.. are only Masterful men beautiful? I don't think so. Its the heart that makes one beautiful
[16:27]  nothing makes him.. he is or he is not a dominant by nature
[16:27]  a foil?
[16:28]  a.... hmmmm...... 
[16:28]  A master is someone who is control of his life
[16:28]  in control of himself
[16:28] * R-Flagg nods
[16:28]  I agree with that
[16:28]  indeed
[16:28]  as do I
[16:28]  and able to see clearly enough to control others
[16:28]  Not only his life..but himself
[16:28]  "Master yourself before you try to Master another"
[16:29] * {ariella}DG smiles
[16:29]  whether he is giving an order, is with a woman or not... he still is what he is
[16:29]  greetings wolfs
[16:29] * R-Flagg nods
[16:29]  so.... 
[16:29]  and only Masters are beautiful? or are we on a new discussion?
[16:30]  believe your path is written, you are either dominant, submissive .. gay whatever .. 
[16:30]  a foil is the reflector to make a light brighter in old medival theater (or lamps in general)
[16:30]  Id like to add something to the original topic
[16:30] * Maggi listens to Da^id
[16:30]  ahhh ... okay
[16:30] * wolfsfire{STI} listens
[16:30]  beauty in a girl....
[16:30]  it's not an "objective" beauty I look for....
[16:30]  a lamp is brighter because a foil reflects its light... but it must be a lamp
[16:31] * wolfsfire{STI} catches up on subject
[16:31]  but there's a huge difference if a girl tries hard to be and look pleasantly to her Master or if she lets herself go....
[16:31] <{ariella}DG> cant there be some tendencies of submissive with a tad of Dominant
[16:31]  the latter would say: I give a shit on how you like me to look like, take me as I am or shut up
[16:31] * ArccAngel rather likes attractive women
[16:31]  sure ari 
[16:32]  Its a natural response.. to be attracted to whats pleasing to the eye
[16:32]  so ... is a Man who is able to Master Himself and able to command ... more attractive (ie beautiful) to women?
[16:32] <{ariella}DG> intrinsic beauty and extrinsic beauty 
[16:32]  if a sub loves her Master wouldn't she try to always look her best to him
[16:32]  depends on the girl
[16:32]  to me? yes
[16:32]  erm are we now talking beauty in the eye of the beholder 
[16:32]  define beautiful .. that is in the eye of beholder
[16:32]  or are we talking beauty in any form 
[16:32]  actually, when you look for a model... pack animal behaviour seems to fit
[16:32]  I expect a kajira to try hard to be pleasing - and that includes to look beautyfull as she can
[16:32]  ditto
[16:33]  depends on what the master wants
[16:33] * lina{D^d} nods and listens
[16:33]  in a pack, all are dom to some, and sub to others.....  and only pups change the ranking
[16:33]  but as beautiful as she can.. but what if she's fat and ugly.. is there beauty in that Da^id? Yes if the heart is beautiful (answers that herself)
[16:33] <{ariella}DG> that is intrinsic beauty Mistress Maggi 
[16:33]  no one is ugly 
[16:34]  but sometimes it takes another view to see "beauty".. i was looking at pics once, rl meeting of a gor irc group, .. first they appeared rather unpleasant, thick, not beauty at all, non of them ... but studying the faces of them.. the expressions.. the admiration of the girls, the smiles of the men .. they became all beautiful and had a certain charm.. the girls as well as the men..
[16:34] <{ariella}DG> the beauty a slave feels when she submits to her Master 
[16:34] <{ariella}DG> no one can take that aways
[16:34]  Maggi, if she's fat and whatever - there's still a huge difference if she tries to be attractive or not
[16:34]  their is always something beautiful on a person and if its just the smile or the glow of her eyes when she looks at her Master or Mistress or even a strange Master ... 
[16:34]  Messick,  wolves, apes, even chickens..... anything that lives in a pack or heard
[16:35]  what's that got to do with anything
[16:35]  i guess we dont have to say the hygiene part as we all should know how to keep our self representable and if you don't you will learn quick like what is representable 
[16:35]  well....... Domminance is a function of pack or heard behaviour
[16:35]  The alpha's and beta's
[16:36]  all the way to the omega
[16:36]  and its herd gentlemen
[16:36]  I can go through a mental list of "beautiful" women that I know, and fair enough, I do not know any models per se,
[16:36]  I have, through circumstance, spoken to all of them about the M/s lifestyle, and in every case, they have shown Me an inner side to them that is very self-serving,  personnally, I do not find that attractive
[16:36]  hopes i'm on that list
[16:36] * wolfsfire{STI} listens
[16:36]  odd, I tend to like beautiful women as my slave
[16:37] * ArccAngel winks at kishy
[16:37] * R-Flagg thinks He is being confusing
[16:37]  Gosh.. I'm almost tempted to jump into silks. Is it only slaves who are beautiful?
[16:37]  Dont answer that! ;)
[16:37]  beautiful in the eyes of the world
[16:37]  as opposed to beautiful in My eyes
[16:38]  what does it require to be beautyfull in your eyes, R-Flagg
[16:38]  the eye of the beholder.. its the heart that counts
[16:38]  I find certain behaviours beautiful
[16:38] * kishy listens
[16:38]  submissiveness, yes,
[16:38]  but also loyalty, devotion
[16:38]  of course there is also the question of beautiful where...  beautiful on irc, on the phone, in rl
[16:38]  Master ArccAngel beauty cannot be defined, as each of us has their own how she say this taste, of cousre she can say and that's with all due respect if a girl is merely passed up cause she does not fit into today's society opinion of beauty, then it is the Masters loss as he may actually be passing up a slave that has more beauty within herself then 10 barbies combined 
[16:38]  and I think non-submissives could have these traits,
[16:39]  just I have not seen them in the "beautiful" people I know
[16:39] * Da^id nods
[16:39] * R-Flagg is talking about r/l ArccAngel
[16:39]  hmmmmmmm 
[16:39]  Reminds me of that Carole King song..you gotta wake up every morning and show the world..that you're beautiful.. as you feel
[16:40]  but online no one really knows what a person looks like so people learn about the inside before meeting each other in real life 
[16:40]  well beauty does not realy come in play online ... as we all know we can tell anything to paint a better picture 
[16:40]  A mean spirit will change a countenance.. 
[16:40]  well in a heard, at leasts the ones were most or all the animals breed, everyone finds someone they think is "desirable" and I guess that can be equated to beauty
[16:40]  on the phone it can be the voice they way she holds the conversation 
[16:41] * R-Flagg nods to ArccAngel
[16:41]  but also in a heard, unusual factors play a part
[16:41]  for example "health"
[16:41]  a dominant animal will look for a healthy partner,
[16:42]  to better improve the success of breeding
[16:42]  so beautiful and the ideal mate was defined by Dawin as "a member of the oposite sex as good as your rung in the evolutionary ladder allows"
[16:42]  for humans, health is masked
[16:42]  see the ads?
[16:42]  "healthy looking hair"
[16:42]  "healthy looking skin"
[16:42] * Da^id nods
[16:43]  not actually healthy hair or skin ... but ***looking***
[16:43]  not really.... just a little disguised
[16:43]  it is a ruse
[16:43]  health is often described as equivalent to beauty
[16:43] * R-Flagg nods
[16:43] * wolfsfire{STI} listen and has to smile
[16:43]  so beauty as darwin might have described is twisted
[16:44]  okay then she will be passed up ... chuckles 
[16:45]  How so wolfsfire{STI}?
[16:45]  ultimately, I think there is a danger in getting hung up in the definitions of beauty as presented by the fashion industry or movies,
[16:45] * Da^id tries to understand the relevance of all this to a kajira
[16:46]  women become obsessed with looking a certain way,
[16:46]  Men overlook decent people in trying to find the ultimate "prize"
[16:46]  childbirth marks, surgery scars, oh let's not forget her body can't disolve the excess colesterol and therefore places it over her eyes which leaves white marks, and oh the aftermath of years of beatings, like dental work cause all her roots of teeth have been broken ... that mars her 
[16:46] * Maggi listens to the male viewpoint
[16:46]  for M/s, I think the issue is what is inside ... what makes that person tick
[16:47]  And men don't become obsessed with finding women that look a certain way?
[16:47]  actually simpler to just look at the natural pecking order everyone of the opposite sex close by or higher is by definition beautiful
[16:47]  Hear hear
[16:47]  Zeb, ask yourself - do you?
[16:48]  I want a woman who looks good *AND* has a beautiful mind
[16:48]  so guess that makes her unattractive... tho she carries herself with pride as she does all she knows to prevent and repair the damage 
[16:48]  That the root of beauty is in the eye of the beholder
[16:48]  which one has priority Zeb?
[16:48] * Da^id fully agrees
[16:48]  Neither, Flagg.  I want them both.
[16:48]  But that's where this discussion started.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder
[16:48]  and Zeb you will find one that fits that definition at the level you are worthy of
[16:49]  What beautiful to one may not be beautiful to another.  wolfsfire{STI}`s honesty is beautiful
[16:49]  She'll find me, Arcc :)
[16:49] * kishy smiles
[16:49]  same difference
[16:49]  Not the same at all.
[16:49]  And Men are the hunters
[16:49]  Mistress that's what she meant not fitting the ideals, girls like myself and others will be passed up with out an second thought and glance 
[16:49] * R-Flagg laughs
[16:49]  Hunters?
[16:49]  the dance is too complex for my poor intelect, but the pairing is obvious
[16:50]  From before and beyond time.. Men prefer to hunt than being hunted. 
[16:50]  lol
[16:50]  hunting is occasionally luring into traps
[16:50]  so if thats the case, why does she bother to be ultimately submissive 
[16:50]  not just chassing
[16:51]  sure Maggi ... put after throwing My spear through a few women I found beautiful,
[16:51]  I decided that hunting them was not all that effective
[16:51] * R-Flagg smiles
[16:51] * wolfsfire{STI} hushes as she is the only girl running her mouth
[16:51]  oh well! Us women do some hunting..we just have to be subtle.. or the prey will flee in fear
[16:51] * kishy chuckles
[16:52]  true
[16:52]  wolfsfire... but that is soooooo sexy and beautiful!!!!
[16:52]  but not too subtle..
[16:52]  wonder sometimes who hunts who 
[16:52] * Zeb prefers "catch and release."
[16:52] * kishy can chase too =)
[16:52]  not fear ... experience
[16:52]  I do not, they hunt each other
[16:52] * wolfsfire{STI} chuckles
[16:53]  the better a slave likes a Master the more she does things for him
[16:53]  Master ArccAngel a mouthy and opinionated girl is sexy and beautiful ... wohoo means she has a chance to be discovered yet 
[16:53] * Maggi smiles
[16:53] * wolfsfire{STI} giggles
[16:53]  wolfsfire{STI} she is to a Master who does not find it the least bit threatening
[16:53]  To everything there is a season wolfsfire{STI}.. and for each soul there is a mate
[16:54]  of course Mistress 
[16:54]  but she has another question 
[16:54]  just needs a much more... hmmm.... centered Master
[16:54]  Maggi, you asked about non-subs being beautiful,
[16:54]  I am sure some are, but I am not attracted to them
[16:55]  again ... in **My** eyes, they are not as beautiful as the ones who are submissive
[16:55] * Messick wants to ask "why not"
[16:55]  to the right Man, all women are sub
[16:55] <{ariella}DG> smiles 
[16:55]  in bed ArccAngel.. in bed
[16:55]  but would you know a submissive from one that isn't by looks?
[16:55]  trouble is for some women, there are only 8 qualified men on earth
[16:55]  fair enough ArccAngel, but in that case, they would appear submissive to Me
[16:56]  ohhhhhh
[16:56]  8 qualified men on earth? May I know who they are?
[16:56]  ... and 7 of them are named Zeb.
[16:56]  not a photograph dina
[16:56]  lol Zeb
[16:56]  Maggi, that is the hard part!!!
[16:56]  okay taking a bad history and a girl that shys away from letting herself truly be what she is... namely a slave how does she pass that border, how can she let her beauty shine if she is either ignored or if a Free cannot deal with her 
[16:56]  but my military uniforms would hide it
[16:56]  guess depends on how a slave dresses
[16:57]  Beauty is deeper than what's on the surface
[16:57]  does it not take the guiding of an Master to be able to be submissive ... 
[16:57]  that is more or less the point of the discussion Maggi
[16:57]  Maggi.... couple of clues..... if people in  general just do as the Man says, in rl, that is a good hint!
[16:58]  that relates to eight qualified men? I'm lost..its either the sleeping tablet or the fact I'm blonde
[16:58]  and how does she learn if she is passed up or ignored and how can she know what is good if she never had the chance to really experience it 
[16:58]  If he is relatively successful in his sphere another good sign
[16:58]  wolfsfire, a Master might guide you, but He will not create submission in a non-submissive
[16:58]  wolfsfire{STI}.. you "feel" if a man is Master.. that won't make you beautiful til you see yourself as such
[16:59]  Maggi..... if you expect someone to be a good Master for you, you have to see them on a higher rung in the pecking order
[16:59] * wolfsfire{STI} wonders what category she fits in or if she should just let go of worrying how others precive her
[16:59]  yes, ArccAngel, and ultimately there are only 8 people on the top rungs?
[16:59] <{ariella}DG> what Makes a good Master, Master ArccAngel 
[17:00]  many successful very attractive women have hi expectations
[17:00]  I dont "expect" to see a Master or have to put him on a higher rung of the ladder. He either feels he is Masterful to me.. or he can be intimidated
[17:00]  I was speaking metaphorically and selected a small random number. By definition there is only 1
[17:00]  1 in 3 billion ... nice odds
[17:00] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:01] * Maggi smiles too
[17:01]  only one at the top
[17:01] * Da^id doubts it's that limited
[17:01]  oh and how does a girl tell that the Master is a Master if she has never experienced one in true form ... i mean sorry but online anyone can portrait anything but when it comes down she not want to face a nother sniffeling Moma's boy 
[17:01]  {ariella}DG, someone who makes you feel lucky to be with, and who makes you feel secure, and who seems ever so wise to you
[17:02] * Zeb moves over to make room for Da^id.
[17:02]  C'mon up, dude.
[17:02]  a good Master for an earth worm is not the same creature as a Master for a 6 figure administrator
[17:02] * R-Flagg laughs
[17:02] * Da^id grins at Zeb
[17:03]  hey a valid question as it takes a Master to be able to be submissive 
[17:03]  so ... appearance is now coupled with intellect, social position, and income ... all of which make the other person "acceptable" as a mate
[17:04]  argh that was badly said 
[17:04]  a girl is submissive but how deep can submission go and grow if she has no one there
[17:04]  i once owned a girl who said she'd not be submissive, but slave only to me
[17:04]  and how is she to know she has the real deal 
[17:04] * R-Flagg owned a girl like that too Da^id
[17:05] <{ariella}DG> she needs to be Mastered and feel her slavery 
[17:05]  anyway ... five minutes left
[17:05]  anything still unclear?
[17:05] <{ariella}DG> Master Da^id that means she was a strong slave 
[17:06]  wolfsfire{STI} actually perhaps the questions should be..... how do you want to feel with a Master... what do you want to be inside?  And is the man capable of doing that
[17:06]  yes Master but in this one's case alot is unclear and one hour won't take to discuss this out 
[17:06]  i doubt that, ari
[17:06] * R-Flagg smiles at wolfsfire
[17:06] <{ariella}DG> what did it mean Master Da^id 
[17:06] * ArccAngel chuckles
[17:07]  she only wanted to be with me, not to be slave
[17:07]  too many views from to many perceptions to be simple
[17:07] * wolfsfire{STI} nods and confusing
[17:08]  yup
[17:08]  ultimately, beauty is more than just how you look in a picture, and if you wish to work on your beauty, then perhaps other things than looks can be expanded upon ... honesty, conviction, trustworthiness, devotion, loyalty, caring, personal strength, inner peace, etc etc etc
[17:09]  All that and a nice rack
[17:09]  and trying to discuss rl beauty in a place that is in general void of rl makes it more dificult
[17:09] * R-Flagg smiles
[17:09]  good final declaration, R-Flagg
[17:09]  sure ArccAngel, but hopefully the ideas can still apply to r/l
[17:09]  thank you for the thoughts
[17:09]  anyway ... times up
[17:09] * kishy smiles
[17:09] * R-Flagg smiles and sits back down
[17:09]  you are all invited to go on discussing, but the hour is over again
[17:10]  Which you can easily have installed for a few thousand bucks.  The rest takes a bit more work.
[17:10] <{ariella}DG> the fastest hour ever is this hour every week 

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