[19:10] -> ChanModes set to +m by Da^id
[19:11] _@+Da^id: ok.....
[19:12] _@+Da^id: welcome to this discussion hour
[19:12] _@+Da^id: Trysten had a topic suggested - I think he mentioned it last week, too
[19:12] _@+Da^id: its:
[19:12] _@+Da^id: What makes a gorean place strict
[19:13] _@+Da^id: and I plan to handle this in steps
[19:13] _@+Da^id: we can define that..... strict .....
[19:14] _@+Da^id: but most of all we might find out ghow it could be in this twilight between virtual and offline realities....
[19:14] _@+Da^id: and we can see at the end: is "strict" what we hope to find?
[19:14] _@+Da^id: ok.....
[19:15] _@+Da^id: before we start....
[19:15] Tustin smiles as he listens
[19:16] _@+Da^id: Trysten, would you give us your thoughts in suggesting that topic?
[19:17] _@+Trysten_Deschain: what I think about strictness?
[19:17] _@+Da^id: and why you think its good to talk about this topic
[19:17] _@+Trysten_Deschain: well I think it is an excellent topic
[19:18] _@+Trysten_Deschain: its often said, the Goreans masters are seldom cruel, but always strict.
[19:18] _@+Trysten_Deschain: So what does that mean?
[19:18] Da^id nods
[19:18] _@+Trysten_Deschain: We hear #such-and-such channel is really strict
[19:18] _@+Trysten_Deschain: well what makes it so strict?
[19:19] _@+Trysten_Deschain: many girls say they come to Gor from the bdsm realm becuase Gor is more strict
[19:19] _@+Trysten_Deschain: well ok, in what way?
[19:19] _@+Trysten_Deschain: how would they know a strict Gorean home from a non-strict Gorean home
[19:19] _@+Trysten_Deschain: or a strict Master from a non-strict one
[19:19] Da^id nods
[19:19] _@+Trysten_Deschain: lots of rheorical questions basically
[19:20] _@+Da^id: well.... we can find a path thru that
[19:20] Da^id smiles
[19:20] _@+Da^id: let me try a poll first
[19:20] _@+Da^id: to the slaves:
[19:21] _@+Da^id: you all will know a bit about bdsm surroundings on- or offline ....
[19:21] _@+Da^id: in general: is the difference that goreans are stricter?
[19:21] champagne shakes her head .. .. this one doesn't think so
[19:21] _+-elinor{T}: maybe the thing is that Goreans control..
[19:22] Tustin nods
[19:22] _+-elinor{T}: it is the control and the obedience commanded that makes the difference? Gorean Masters do not cajole.. they command
[19:22] _@+Da^id: ok
[19:23] _@+Da^id: champagne?
[19:23] _@+Tustin: We expect discipline and balance throughout a girl's life...tis not about sex
[19:23] Da^id nods at Tustin
[19:23] _@+Da^id: sheba?
[19:23] _@+Da^id: lina?
[19:23] _@+Da^id: any views?
[19:23] _@+Da^id: soho?
[19:23] _+champagne: depending on the BDSM relationship that same level of commanding is present .. nor have her BDSM experiences been based on sex .. the difference to her has usually been in the ritualistic nature of the relationship .. the level to which the "rules" have been explicitly stated
[19:24] Da^id nods at champagne
[19:24] _+-lina{D^d}: lina thinks that generally Gorean are just ...stricter..its their aura ..
[19:24] _@+Da^id: good point
[19:24] _+-elinor{T}: oh yes.. and the traditions that are so very compelling?
[19:24] Da^id nods at lina, too
[19:25] sheba's experiences have been the same in both
[19:25] _@+Tustin: I have always thought of BDSM relationships as more negotiations....
[19:25] _@+Tustin: than Master/slave....
[19:25] _+soho: a girl would say it really depends upon who one hooks up with and what direction the relationship is desired..
[19:25] _@+Da^id: the negotiations thing is important
[19:26] _@+Da^id: and that means a kind of strictness again:
[19:26] _@+Da^id: here theres no point in talking about if you kneel before me this or that way
[19:26] _@+Da^id: or more important things
[19:26] _@+Tustin: to me...a girl has one choice...to beg the collar...after that...all the choices belong to the Master....
[19:26] _@+Da^id: while in BDSM i find funny agreements of any kind
[19:26] _+soho: a girl has met many Dominants in the BDSM that do not tolerate much of anything from a submissive/slave/bottom.. so for her it depends on what it is she is seeking..
[19:27] _+-elinor{T}: a girl feels safe then Master
[19:27] _@+Da^id: ok.....
[19:27] aye soho . . the same can be said for Gorean Masters .. some tolerate more than others
[19:27] _+soho: how about "beg release, Master Tustin" ?
[19:27] _@+Da^id: Trysten spoke about places on IRC
[19:27] Da^id stops cause sohos question is a good point
[19:27] _@+Tustin: technically soho...her Master could deny her release...a girl may beg for many things....but not get them
[19:28] _@+Tustin: I am not saying if a girl asked for release that I would keep her...after all....this is consensual slavery we speak of
[19:28] Da^id nods
[19:29] _@+Da^id: Trysten spoke about places on IRC.... is that true? are Gor channels stricter?
[19:29] _@+Trysten_Deschain: in my expereinces on bondage.com for 3 years, I would say so.
[19:29] _+-lina{D^d}: definitely
[19:29] some are, yes
[19:30] _+soho: would appear to this one that many times.. on irc that in gorean channels, the time is appreciated
[19:30] _+champagne: they are more ritualistic .. with set rules ... not sure they are more strict .. just that expectations are better spelled out in advance
[19:30] _@+Tustin: time soho?
[19:30] _@+Tustin: how so?
[19:31] Da^id listens
[19:31] _+soho: the time it takes to bring the visual discription is noted.. not laughed at when one has a desire..
[19:31] _@+Da^id: ah
[19:32] _+soho: in many bdsm channels.. the time is in a sense not noticed.. and unappreciated.. most of the looked over as someone that is just typing.. when the desire is there, it is strong.. more so a mocking slap of role play many times.
[19:33] _@+Da^id: for me the aspect which is mentioned that in gorean context rituals are important belongs to this.....
[19:33] _+Ahsishishe: Tal
[19:33] _@+Da^id: we dont discuss those rituals, you follow them or leave.....
[19:34] _@+Da^id: this gives the girls a good orientation and makes things easier in my eyes
[19:34] _+soho: no annoying pop ups.. or abreviations like.. brb.. ttyl.. ty, yw.. the titles are yes, expected as well as noticed when not given by those in gorean channels as opposed to those in many bdsm channels on ice.
[19:34] _@+Trysten_Deschain: when I refer to strictness... I do not mean the cookie-cutter rituals
[19:34] _@+Da^id: for ppl who are used to NDSM habbits it must look very strict
[19:34] _@+Trysten_Deschain: for example...
[19:35] _@+Trysten_Deschain: if a girl dares to beg permission to greet while she is serving me, she find her but on the slave furs in an instance
[19:35] _@+Trysten_Deschain: is that strict?
[19:35] _+soho: no Master Trysten.. not to this one
[19:35] _@+Trysten_Deschain: what is strict to you, soho?
[19:35] _@+Tustin: do you speak of being in the middle of a serve or still at your feet?
[19:36] _@+Trysten_Deschain: either really, Tustin
[19:36] _+soho: falls into the lines of why would a girl even desire to greet anyone when she is allowed to spend time with Master..
[19:36] _@+Da^id: that is strict
[19:36] _@+Tustin: don't know many slaves who would do either...
[19:36] Da^id smiles
[19:36] Tustin grins!
[19:37] this girl wants to say it would be strict to reprimand for that if the girl had no way of knowing Master would not like it ... after knowing, then it would not be strict
[19:37] _@+Da^id: for my habbits it depends on if i am talking or "communicating" with her or just keep her at my feet
[19:37] _@+Trysten_Deschain: ok, soho, has chimed in. This goes out to the rest of the girls. Give an example of something you find strict.
[19:37] _+soho: if or when He desired for the girl to greet or talk openly at His feet.. it would indeed be made known to her.. to her that is not strict at all.. not sure what "strict" would be to this one..
[19:38] elinor{T} thinking
[19:38] _+-lina{D^d}: when a Free checks on a girl's idle time... to lina ..that is strict
[19:38] lina{D^d} nods
[19:38] Tustin smiles
[19:38] _+soho: shows this one they care lina
[19:39] _+champagne: along the same line as lina's comment .. still though if the request was made to say be quiet .. checking on it wouldn't necessarily be strict .. it should be expected
[19:39] _@+Tustin: if a girl can chat with 10 people and still serve me in a pleasing manner...why should I care?
[19:39] _+deb`ra: to this girl, strict is when a punishment meets the crime, When the punishment exceeds the crime, it is cruel. When is does neither, he is not much of a Master (in this girl's opinion).
[19:40] _@+Tustin: However...if I am not pleased...she will repeat the serve until I am
[19:40] _@+Trysten_Deschain: so strictness is discipline to you, deb`ra?
[19:43] very much so, Master Trysten. it is how she learns best.
[19:43] her attention is sparred Master Tustin.. unlike offline where you are able to see and hear what is going on with a girl that is serving you, here online you are not always able to know, or tell.. perhaps it really depends on the mood a Master is in..
[19:45] in the earlier example...
[19:46] _+elinor{T}: discipline that holds a girl under complete control.. that is strict to elinor.. and what she needs
[19:46] being strict is not compromising
[19:46] _@Trysten_Deschain: excellent point, sheba
[19:47] _@Trysten_Deschain: so the gor channels compromise? does #STI even?
[19:48] * sheba{STI} grins .. because strict gorean protocol is obvious here .. strict, even
[19:49] _@Trysten_Deschain: is it obvious, sheba?
[19:49] _@Trysten_Deschain: how so?
[19:49] girls follow it when it is not needed .. it is instilled
[19:49] mm but that does bring up another point ..
[19:50] Tustin listens quietly
[19:50] what is more important .. Gorean protocol or what is wished at the time ..
[19:50] _@+Tustin: what is most important is what the Free wish at the time sheba....
[19:50] _+elinor{T}: wished at the time sheba? not sure what you mean?
[19:50] _+elinor{T}: oh
[19:50] elinor{T} grins
[19:51] _@+Tustin: I once was told I was not allowed to have my blackwine served in a bowl...because it was not proper Gorean
[19:51] _@+Da^id: *laughs*
[19:51] _@+Tustin: after the kajira got up from the floor...she served my blackwine in the bowl
[19:51] _@+Da^id: lina serves my mug with a saucer.... cause i like it
[19:52] lina{D^d} grins
[19:52] _+elinor{T}: actually there is a quote of blackwine served in a bowl girl is pretty sure.. but it would not matter.. one serves what the Master wishes..
[19:52] _@+Da^id: indeed
[19:53] _@+Tustin: Indeed!
[19:53] _@+Da^id: let me try to draw some conclusions.....
[19:53] _@+Tustin: so does that answer your question sheba?
[19:53] perhaps that is why Goreans seem more strict .. they do not feel obliged to follow their own protocol .. ??
[19:53] Tustin grins
[19:53] _@+Tustin: Indeed sheba!
[19:53] _@+Da^id: you all see gorean ways in a way stricter than others, though it will depend on the ppl filling it with meaning.....
[19:54] _@+Da^id: and you all like that, like the strictness you hope to find here....
[19:54] _@+Da^id: this strictness is linked to the set of habbits and rites we have....
[19:55] _@+Da^id: and following that youd all hate to start the negotiation style we see in lots of bdsm surroundings....
[19:55] _@+Da^id: so:
[19:56] _@+Da^id: what makes Gor strict would be the set of rules, the freedom of the Masters to decide even against those rules, and the clear hold and orientation this setting gives to the slaves
[19:56] _@+Da^id: is that all true?
[19:56] lina{D^d} nods nods
[19:56] Tustin nods in agreement
[19:56] _+elinor{T}: yes Master
[19:56] yes, Master
[19:56] _@+Da^id: okay....
[19:56] _@+Da^id: one more aspect
[19:57] _@+Da^id: some online places see themselves as way strictere than we are here
[19:57] _@+Da^id: they mostly combine it with more roleplay elements
[19:57] _@+Da^id: GCN network is based on that, but some places here, too
[19:58] _@+Da^id: is that really stricter or what is it?
[19:58] _+deb`ra: GCN network?
[19:58] _@+Da^id: "Global communications network" - a kind of technically more sophisticated IRC clone where there are a dozen gor places
[19:59] _@+Da^id: would we be stricter by more rp?
[19:59] _@Trysten_Deschain: what is so strict about GCN?
[19:59] _+elinor{T}: elinor thinks this is question for Masters?
[19:59] _@+Da^id: *laughs* .... they believe they are, Trysten
[19:59] Tustin chuckles
[19:59] _@+Da^id: i dont agree
[20:00] _@Trysten_Deschain: well, if you're going top play the game, then one must obide by the rules
[20:00] _@+Tustin: don't think so Da^id
[20:00] _@Trysten_Deschain: same as playing Dungeons and Dragons games
[20:00] _@+Da^id: true
[20:00] _@Trysten_Deschain: or whats the point of roleplaying
[20:00] _@+Da^id: "if your in Rome be as the Romans"
[20:00] _@+Tustin: but to us it is not roleplaying....it is what we are....is it not?
[20:00] _@+Da^id: yes and no
[20:01] _@+Da^id: why do we let girls serve us a drink here?
[20:01] _+champagne: this one doesn't think it is stricter .. although she does see how it could be viewed that way .. what she sees here is people who to an extent care for one another ... and as such they aren't afraid to put those "rules" aside briefly if need be to help someone out ... here this one views the atmosphere as more of a home (but have never been to GCN) .. as in more real seeming than a roleplay
[20:01] _+elinor{T}: some of us are not really roll playing .. what you see is what we are?
[20:01] Da^id agrees
[20:01] _+elinor{T}: role too
[20:02] elinor{T} grins shaking her head
[20:02] _@+Da^id: for me serving is a helpfull ritual
[20:02] _@+Tustin: I agree....for some girls...it is the only time they can serve
[20:03] _@+Da^id: you all know me....
[20:03] _@+Da^id: I love to be silly in times
[20:03] _@+Da^id: play in the pool
[20:03] _@+Da^id: and such
[20:04] _@+Da^id: i guess that doesnt make me a disney gorean
[20:04] _@Trysten_Deschain: but then we digree into a real life vs roleplay disccusion, which would take hours in and of itself, which has nothing to do with strictness
[20:04] _@+Da^id: oh, true....
[20:04] _@+Da^id: what I mean is this:
[20:04] _@+Da^id: the rp elements we have do reassure eachother about the positions we have
[20:05] _@+Da^id: and for that i do insist in them - and in having them done in a way i like it
[20:05] _@+Da^id: thats what has to do with strictness in that
[20:06] _@+Da^id: okay
[20:06] _@+Da^id: who has anything about strictness in mind which was not yet mentined?
[20:06] _@+Da^id: (damned typos)
[20:07] _@Trysten_Deschain: maybe the girls cold give an example when when they thought a gor channel was not strict enough. Any examples, girls?
a thought greetings is fine, Master ? no ..
d}: yes, Master
[20:08] Da^id listens to answers for Trystens question
[20:09] _+lina{D^d}: when they have killing done there, Master Trysten
[20:09] _+lina{D^d}: or forced collaring ... or those forced thingy
[20:09] _+lina{D^d}: lina sorta lost a respect to a channel that practice such things
[20:10] _+champagne: to this one when a channel is not strict enough .. to her it usually implies that she thinks punishment for a slave doesn't match up to the crime ... for instance this one frequently sees lazy ones in channels .. ones who come in say hello, and immediately pop into pm with people .. not attending to Those in the channel, and not be called on it
[20:10] _@Trysten_Deschain: thats sounds more like a knock against roleplay rather than strictness, lina
[20:11] _@+Da^id: true champagne
[20:11] _@Trysten_Deschain: so champagne, if a channel allows a girl to come and go to pm without offer any service is a sign that the channel is not stict?
[20:11] _+lina{D^d}: but how can anyone who lets such things happen in a channel be strict enough in controlling a channel, Master Trysten ?
[20:12] _@Trysten_Deschain: those who allows are those things are mostly roleplayers which is a topic in and of itself
[20:12] _@Trysten_Deschain: personally, I think its silly, doesnt mean it is not a strict channel
[20:12] _+lina{D^d}: yes, Master Trysten
[20:12] _@+Da^id: what lina mentioned is more the field of seriousness.... i cannot take that serious, therefor the strictness there is mere play in my eyes
[20:13] _+champagne: it would depend Master Trysten .. however, if Everyone hasn't been offered service .. and they make no attempt when anyOne new enters ... then yes to this one the channel isn't strict
[20:13] _+caile{T}: caile thinks that channels themselves arent' really strict or not strict but the people that start comprising it and attend on a regular basis. to say a channel may not be strict is rather unfair if 1 person enjoys company within but may be outside the bounds of what is normal in the channel
[20:14] lina{D^d} nods to her owner's words and understandng, leans over and kisses His boots
[20:15] _@+Da^id: well.....
[20:15] _@+Tustin: what would keep a Gorean male from just saying what he wanted?
[20:15] _@+Tustin: whether the girl offered or not
[20:15] _@+Da^id: nothing.
[20:15] Da^id smiles
[20:16] _@+Da^id: I was kicked for that sometimes
[20:16] Tustin chuckles
[20:16] _@+Da^id: well, we reached our time slot
[20:16] _@+Tustin: well....me too Bro....
[20:16] Da^id rises
[20:16] _@+Da^id: thank you for the active discussion we had
[20:16] _@+Da^id: it was a good topic, met some points we touched in other discussions
[20:17] _@+Da^id: Ill try to get this discussion on the website
[20:17] elinor{T} smiles warmly.. thank you Master Da^id it was very interesting
[20:18] _@+Da^id: I still hope to see a log of the discussion when I was promoting why we have a great gift in being gorean
[20:19] _@+Da^id: i personally found that important enough to post it, too
[20:19] _+lina{D^d}: yes, Master
[20:19] _@+Da^id: its been some weeks ago
[20:19] _@+Da^id: ok.....
[20:19] _@+Da^id: now the discussion hour is ended.... feel free to go on talking about it or whatever
[20:19] _@+Da^id: and girls.... be pleasing!
[20:19] -> ChanModes set to -m by Da^id