title: all-ages shows
Written by: keropi on 7/13/98 at 11:32AM.
what is the point in having all-ages shows? and aren't the bands getting a little old to be holding the banner up of "we're doing it for the kids!" I don't want to go to some cramped, shitty, hole in the wall to see my favorite band here in Portland because they want to do an all ages show... the thing is, THE KIDS aren't going to get you anywhere... Replies:
Reply from: janeeta on 7/13/98 at 11:38AM. i think that all-ages shows are important when the music is about issues like riot grrrl / feminism / queerness, etc. THE KIDS are the ones who need the positivity these shows provide more than anyone else. looks like someone grew up with their panties in a wad.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/13/98 at 12:13PM. this has nothing to do wit anythang: why was the make*up an all ages show if there was a keg?
Reply from: Jenn on 7/13/98 at 2:13PM. hey keropi, mr.negativity: i agree with janeeta. ok, so if you go to some dive to see your band and you get all upset cause there are dumb kids there or whatever, how selfish of you to wish that you could see them somewhere else and deprive the yungins of the same chance. music is a source and the whole thing about kids *not* getting the band anywhere. it's not about that, it's about music for the people and spreading the message and speaking out about things that matter. imagine wanting to see a poet and not being let in cause of the color of your skin even though the poetry spoke of things that matter to you. it's disrimination to not let someone see their fave band because they were born latter than the pricks who don't like kids at shows. get over it. it's about the music, not YOU!!!
Reply from: eliz on 7/13/98 at 2:54PM. the coolest kidd i know is only 14, and i am wicked glad that the make-up show was all ages, cus he had a rockin good time there.
Reply from: peesha on 7/13/98 at 3:02PM. eheh I got shoved almost to the ground at an all ages show a few months ago.. it was an 11 year old kid about my height. I just laughed.. he felt like shit and almost cried.. awwwww.. he was cute. I bought him a Policy patch..he was the cutest thing.. Iam almost 25 and I take pride in knowing that the younger kids can still goes to shows and has a good time regardless of their age. In Dallas when they have all-ages shows at the venues they have no alcohol. I would rather be at a show with a bunch of high energy open minded kids than a bunch of old school drunk boring scenesters.. :D---xox peesha
Reply from: taylor k on 7/13/98 at 3:02PM. Did you ever think for a second that maybe bands remember what it was like to be a kid? Cause obviously you don't, despite yr sanrio inspired handle...
Reply from: gemma on 7/13/98 at 3:33PM. k. i'm underage, but i go to alot of bar shows anyways, and i usually enjoy the all ages shows better. why? because of the type of music i listen to, the all ages shows are attended by fans- yr less likely going to have to deal with the same immaturity as you at say a green day concert. secondly, i would much rather be knocked over by some kid that's super excited about seeing her/his favorite band play than be knocked over by a drunk hipster at a bar show. grown ups get too jaded:)
Reply from: sweetpea on 7/13/98 at 3:54PM. 'kay...i used to get annoyed at all ages shows myself, cuz i thought that they were annoying, but lemme tell you, 18+ and 21+ shows aren't ANY better...i went to see joan jett at a 21+ club yesterday, and not only was EVERYONE wasted off their face, they were pushy and annoying, causing me to get knocked to the ground not once, but three times...once my an especially rude bouncer who was sooo cool cuz he had a headset and felt he could push anyone down...and i digress..my point is, i have a much better crowd experience at all ages shows than i do at 18/21+. funny as it may seem, sometimes the crowds are more mature...and i agree w/ janeeta. it is important for bands w/ certain messages to be seen by the masses, not just scenesters with their amstels in hand...
Reply from: PixiGrrrl on 7/13/98 at 4:22PM. Ok, I'm prolly gonna get a lot of flak for my responce, but oh well... I understand the need for ALL AGES venues, and when I was under 18, there were few if ANY all age clubs and venues, so I missed out on alot of killer shows cos of my age, then I got a fake ID and things changed, but that was the 80's and doormen and bouncers were way more cool than now a days, so I do sympathize, I mean I do werk at and promote one of the ONLY all ages venues in LA, (Saint Lucy's) but then again I do go to more 21+ shows now that I'm "of Age" (whatever that means) and yes people drink at these shows and yes people get beligerant and act stupid, but that happens and you shouldn't generalize when you say that 21+ shows are full of "hipsters" with beers in hand, cos not everone is like that.....in fact I see more cool-nice-friendly-normal people at 21+ shows than I do idiots, and there are going to be idiots wherever you go....EXAMPLE: Sleater Kinney last year at the Troubidor...........a drunken teenage boy and his female friend were in front heckeling Kenickie and then later threw a lit ciggertte at Carrie (needless to say he got ejected from the show!). So you see, it's just a gamble I guess. But I do wish there were more all age venues, because it's important for everyone to be able to see bands, be involved, and have a good time!
Reply from: keropi on 7/13/98 at 4:27PM. if anyone remembers the x-ray cafe, which was where I used to go when I was in high school and before I was 21, I can testify that I have done my time at the all ages venues. I am mostly speaking of the reality of how strange it is that twenty and thirty year olds are playing to these young kids because the kids are the only ones that are really excited about the music being played.... and I was not aware of the need for a riot grrrl sensibility in rock, that concept is soooo 1990.
Reply from: peesha on 7/13/98 at 4:30PM. I agree that there are cool people at shows.. I usually go to local house punk shows myself.. if you lived in Dallas you would understand what I mean by the bitter old-schoolers.. I was not trying to generalize the whole Dallas old-school crowd.. shit a lot of those old-school kids are my friends.. :D --xox peesha
Reply from: gemma on 7/13/98 at 6:43PM. "i would much rather be knocked over by some kid that's super excited about seeing her/his favorite band play than be knocked over by a drunk hipster at a bar show." - gemma " you shouldn't generalize when you say that 21+ shows are full of "hipsters" with beers in hand, cos not everone is like that.... " - pixiegrrrl i understand yr point, but i don't feel that i was making a huge generalization there. honestly, at every bar show i have been to (probably about ten or so) i have been at least stepped on and pushed by someone with alcohol on their breathe. and most of them didn't really pay attention to the show, they were more there to socialize (my definition of hipster). but maybe i am.. *trying really hard to not sound aggressive and meanie like the magority of "discussions" on here * but yeah, there are cool people at both shows. i saw sleater at a bar, and not only were there rude pushy/gropy guys there, there was one that demanded they play "miss world" and told em how to tune their guitars... slick.... so slick.. what is it about rude boys and sleater?
Reply from: bina on 7/13/98 at 8:09PM. i think that's disgusting that you are so high and mighty that you don't want to share the floor to watch a band with someone who was not born long enough ago for you. i am 16 years old and do you know how many times i see a band playing in the paper or whatever that i want to go to and i can't? all ages shows are godsends love, bina
Reply from: janeeta on 7/13/98 at 8:18PM. well, keroppi, looks like you left your youth and your compassion back in 1990. i prefer to be "soooo 1990" if it means including people of all ages and presenting THE KIDS with safe space. now hurry along, go buy yourself a nice little bmw and drive it to starbucks.
Reply from: lady_bunny on 7/13/98 at 8:26PM. anon-Yeah, what was up with the Make-up show in Boston? Make-up and Lung-Leg were great, but it was like a keg party. Also, I don't get why there are 18+ and all ages shows. What can you do at 18 (in a club) that you can't legally do at 17 or 15 (besides smoke) ? I missed out on a Lunachicks show when I was 3 month shy of 18. It was really pointless. I thought of getting a fake i.d. just for that show, but the door ppl @ the Middle East keep a book from the state on how to check i.d.s etc. just thought i'd through my 2 cents in
Reply from: sweetpea on 7/13/98 at 8:30PM. if you go to a show at a place that has a liquor license, the management would much rather keep it an older crowd so as to sell more booze and/or cigarettes...that's their deal most of the time...ther than that, i can't really comment.
Reply from: bina on 7/13/98 at 8:31PM. you think 18+ shows are wierd? they have 16+ shows here! love, bina
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/13/98 at 8:31PM. middle east is totally 18+ now. sucks.
Reply from: Jenn on 7/13/98 at 10:46PM. janeeta, you rock my world!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply from: raya on 7/14/98 at 1:55AM. that concept is soooo 1990. I'm sorry, but I just think this is so funny:P (like it wasn't a revolutionary movement, it was just a trend) And I'm just imagining this 20-something talking like a valley girl... and like, Sleater-Kinney are SO last year.. so, oh cool and mighty one, what's in for this year??
Reply from: keroppi on 7/14/98 at 4:52PM. testy, testy!!! I will buy myself that BMW when my rockstar girlfriend plays bigger shows than under age dives across the country....
Reply from: janeeta on 7/14/98 at 8:30PM. well you do that you cranky old butthead. i'll be glad to see you drive away.
Reply from: peesha on 7/14/98 at 8:48PM. hahhahahah janeeta that shit was funny.. eheheheheh -wiping away the tears xoxox peesha
Reply from: Gepetto on 7/14/98 at 9:09PM. I hate over 18, 21, 16 shows...I just turned 16 4 min ago if my clock is right.. But it really pisses me off that I will never be ble to see the Red Aunts because this is their last tour and the only show I can get to is a 21+ show, and I didn't get to see Auntie Christ/Peeches when they played in Philly because it was at the same place as The Red Aunts show, and the only Joan Jett show on this current tour that I could get to was the only 21+ show. Sinse I was born in 1982 I shouldn't be able to see these bands and a lot of others...that makes a whole lot of sense. What about bands like the Donnas? Should they play only 21+ shows? They arn't even 21 themselves (i think and if they arn't why would they right an album called American TEENAGE Rock-n-Roll Machine?). And music is not supposse to be for the kids? What about the Bis song "tell it to the kids"? And tons of other songs which are meant to inspire kids to start bands and stuff? What the hell happened to you Keropi? What the hell made you so against kids having a good time?
Reply from: gogo on 7/14/98 at 10:32PM. well, at least portland is better for all ages shows than Washington. In Washington there are all these stupid teen dancing ordinances and in some cities, all-ages shows have to end at certain times or you have to purchase insurance in case some underage kid cracks his head open trying to stage dive; there are a lot of regulations that makes it really difficult to set up an all ages show to the point where it's not even worth it and discourages people from setting up all-ages shows. In portland I guess you can serve alcohol at an all ages show, but only as long as it is in a roped off area (?) but I'm not sure. Anyway, I think alcohol and punk shows are just a bad mix, cuz it just seems that people act a lot more stupid and violently at 21+ shows or where there is alcohol served near by, like last year's sleater-kinney show during Bumbershoot that was right next to the Beer gardens and all these drunk frat boys tried to start a mosh pit. It was awful.
Reply from: kapu on 7/15/98 at 1:00AM. being a person who puts on shows & belongs to the 21- club, i'm extremely pro-all ages shows. it's hard fur me to believe that the 21+ crowd would be soo anti all ages shows cause we were ALL under 21 at one point. we all knew/know what it felt like to miss out on seeing our FAVORITE band of all time play the only show in our state at a 21+ place. that REALLY sucks. i love being in all ages environment. it adds such an eclectic of people. i really wish liquor was not served at ANY shows. i've had horrible experiences with big rowdy drunken boys at shows. they have ev'ry right to enjoy the show, but SO DO I. i don't infringe myself on anyone & they should do the same. i'd rather deal with annoying groupie chicks than some 30 year old guy jubilantly pounding my back while beer is spilled on my all stars. liquour is served at all ages shows as well at some clubs. but that's why i prefer youth center shows or other kinds of community centers. the places are usually more friendly & the crowds stay fairly under control. that's my two cents at one in the morning. hehe.. xox
Reply from: esk on 7/15/98 at 7:35AM. i've had equally bad experiences at all-ages and 21+ shows. people at shows are fuckheads, period. the only good experience i've had recently at *any* show was last year at some s-k show at la luna. i was upstairs in the 21+ balcony and it was so fuckin nice to be able to sit down and listen to the music and generally not be bothered by shrieking jumping shoving idiots. grrrr. large amounts of people + loud music + enclosed spaces = shitty evening that i'd rather be spending at home reading a book these days.
Reply from: Gepetto on 7/15/98 at 8:30PM. I had a really bad experience at a Sleater-Kinney show too. There were these 2 girls who pushed in front of my friend and we couldn't be near each other all night. So my friend made the night miserable for these 2 girls by screaming and dancing and by having a good time like they weren't doing. One of them posted something mean about my friend on the Sleater-Kinney Digest and my friend responded and the girl got scared...hehe. The only really bad experience I have had at a concert was at a Save Ferris/Golfinger/Sugar Ray concert were i got pushes to the growned. I couldn't get up and I just screamed "my leg" so they would let me up...It worked. But it was an all ages show, they did serve alcohol at the bar on the second level so i dont think anyone was drunk...OH well
Reply from: raya on 7/15/98 at 8:39PM. Meow, I've been in the front at shows before and almost been crushed and I had to be pulled out by a good simeritan or a security guard... Other than that I've had really great experiences at shows... I just don't like floaters(one fell on the back of my neck once) and moshers cuz being on the edge of a mosh pit SUCKS. I've missed so many good bands because it was 21 and up.. Shonen Knife, 7 Year Bitch, Tricky, and on and on.. just so some assholes could drink while they watched the show.. I really think that's a much larger infringement upon my rights than their right to drink. I finally turned 18 so I can go to those shows now, but still, I can't go to 21 and up shows or clubs and it sucks.
Reply from: PURRGRRL on 7/15/98 at 8:57PM. yeh, we have 'em here too (all age shows) and well, i'd prefer to go to 'em (i'm 25) cause the kidz are reel, and the energy is infectious and we all jump around. seeing the little grrls looking at kat bjelland when they (babes in toyland) toured was so rad. Heaps of them danced and sang like there was no tomorrow and the whole revolution appeared to happening that day! and from the bands point of view...all ages are way more fun to play! ppl try to look too cool at nermal shows....and when fugazi comes, they only play all ages.....
Reply from: scott on 7/16/98 at 1:11PM. thanx kapu, for speaking what's on my mind as well. we do all ages shows in our living room in brooklyn, and quite frankly it was out of our frustrations with the lack of all ages shows in the new york area. while i am now most definitely over 21, it hasn't been that long since i couldn't go to any cool shows where i grew up in detroit, so, i think it is VERY important for there to be all ages spaces, where everyone, including kids under 21 feel comfortable. we don't serve alcohol, and if i had my way i'd keep all shows alcohol free, but people bring their own and we haven't had any problems. it's not about which musicians are too old or tired or whatever, there are always new bands and folks who want to see music and interact with people in a non bar environment.
Reply from: sweetpea on 7/16/98 at 1:18PM. thank you sooooo much for dumba, scott...we love it.
Reply from: deedee on 7/16/98 at 1:36PM. let me just say ROCK is dead! Yoga is in..by the way, keropi is soooo sexy she gets my crank movin'.
Reply from: punkrockdyke on 7/16/98 at 3:35PM. 21+ shows are stupid. Well, it depends on the band I guess. It's you're Elton John or Celine Dion maybe. The fact is that I'm 24 and I'd rather play to 18 year olds than 28 year olds. First of all, kids are gonna buy your records because they don't have to pay rent, car payments, food for the kids, etc. They also can go out for shows because they don't have to get up for work early (at least during the summer). PLUS they aren't so stiff and lame at shows. Not that there aren't cool 35 year olds jumping around at shows, but you know what I mean. I don't mean SLAMMING into people, I just mean not sitting at some table in the back having drinks. FINALLY we need to get kids to shows because there are very few positive things for minors to do. When they do get involved in music that has a message, etc. we need to encourage that.
Reply from: the new kid on 7/16/98 at 3:40PM. didn't you go to shows when you were underage?
Reply from: keropi on 7/16/98 at 4:51PM. that the venues themselves are not big money makes, so the people who run them are doing it as a labor of love (or an inability to get a liquor license), and because funds are limited, the venues are small and cramped with bad sound, lighting, etc, which is not exactly the most fun place to see any band. Who wants to go and see a band like VERSUS (who just played in Portland) at a all ages venue and hear their beautiful music coming out of the shittiest sound system in town? Also, surrounding businesses (such as restaurants on the other side of an under age club's wall) are affected. All ages shows have to (well who knows if they really HAVE to) start early, and that drives out customers of other businesses - for example the 17 Nauticle Miles and The Delta Restaurant. ANd THE KIDS don't even know the impact that they have on everyone else.
Reply from: not so anonymous on 7/16/98 at 6:28PM. keropi, what shows at 17 nautical miles have you been to lately? and do you really think that the delta has such a problem with the club? i havent noticed any problems between the two establishments....i think the people who run 17 nautical miles are both wonderful :) its my favorite all-ages club in portland since thee o
Reply from: Idgie on 7/18/98 at 2:06PM. I so don't even know where to begin. All ages shows are important. We separate ourselves in so many ways and age is a big one. It's a larger issue thna just music but that's what we're talkign about. Yeah, sound systems can be shitty but mayeb they wouldn't be if we spent more money supporting local clubs and musicians instead of fucking budweiser. As for businesses they probably get more business with increased area traffic. And not all all ages shows start early. 17 Nautical miles used to not start 'til 10. Not all people under 21 are dirty and immature so fuck your snobby over age attitude.
Reply from: Mike Saboo on 7/18/98 at 3:42PM. All ages shows are not always in cramped, badly-lit spaces with horrible sound, just as all age-limit shows aren't in huge, well-lit spaces with crystal-clear PA's. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of crappy 18+/21+ bars that have live bands suffering through poorly-lit, tinny-sounding sets on a daily basis, and there are several all-ages spaces with big stages, excellent lighting and huge sound systems...ever been to the Gilman Street Project in Oakland, the Trumbull Theater in Detroit or Rhino's in Bloomington? Insulting DIY/all-ages spaces because they don't have the money to afford a huge sound system or pay rent on a space the size of a football field is like insulting, say, Versus or some other indie rock band because they can't afford a laser light show like Pink Floyd. Speaking of Pink Floyd, if you want to be assured good sound and lots of space, stick to big arena rock shows, since it's obvious that you dislike small shows regardless of the entry policies of those spaces. Or sit at home and listen to yer CDs. Also, saying that only all-ages spaces cause disturbances with other local businesses is ludicrous, bars with live bands and age-limit venues can and will cause as much hassle to the neighborhoods they're in as DIY/all-ages spaces. Oh, and since someone asked, sometimes age limits are determined by local cabaret/insurance/live music venue zoning laws, which is why a lot of places here are 16+ I'm also way, WAY over 16/18/21 and still refuse to spend money on supporting age-limit shows. And if a band's looking for THE KIDS to "get them somewhere", then they're better off breaking up or becoming a cover band and playing at weddings.
Reply from: scott on 7/18/98 at 4:11PM. yay! mike has said it all, xcept keroppi, you just have diff priorities when it comes to yr live music tastes, i guess. so, yes, stay at home and play your crystal clear overpriced compact disks or pay through yr nose and support corporate sponsors, big promoters and the like...and that's fine, for you, but not for all. mike is right, not all spaces have crappy p.a. systems, as for us, we were borrowing abc no rio's until we did a couple of fundraisers and bought a used one, that sounds pretty damn swell, if i may, and maybe you could help a space out and do some fundraiser shows of your own. i've never been to portland and i don't know those spaces or the adjacent businesses, but i think yr arguement is pretty thin. life is full of restrictions, and many are based on age, the reason clubs are 21+ is because of their liquor licenses, which are expensive and difficult to keep, so their priority is on selling liquor. they often don't promote shows well and treat the bands like crap (i know, a major overgeneralization) but just some food fer thought. xoxo
Reply from: keropi on 7/20/98 at 11:37AM. I am glad that this has generated such spirited debate.... I went to see the Vegas Beat & Madigan this weeked at 17 Nautical miles, and though the owners are doing their goddamn hardest, it was 95 degrees inside because they couldn't open the doors, and I think people were fainting. Oh well, it was still fun.....
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/21/98 at 11:22AM. top
Reply from: cakeboy on 7/22/98 at 1:22PM. hi. someone mentioned joan jett touring. i heard about this and i was wondering if anyone knows when/if she's coming to the boston area. or could you give me a link to her tour dates or something like that? thanks xo tommy