Written by: twisted sisterrr on 11/9/97 at 10:33AM. okay, i'm doing a paper for my women's studies class on the societal view of bisexuality and i was wondering about how everybody felt. I need a few types of peopel to repond if that's okay: 1. lesbians/gays who think that bisexuality is bogus 2. straight people " " " " " " " . 3. bisexuals who are comfortable with the 'label' of being so. 4. The issue that bisexiality is a 'cover up' for people who are really gay. I just would like some responses if that's okay. A little bit of info on me if that would help you guys out: i'm an 18 year old lesbian who goes to clubs and constantly hears my friends and other lesbians bashing bisexuals claiming that they (bisexuals) are ashamed to admit to themselves that they are really gay and that they are confused. I've heard people call bi's 'sick' and confused.' That's why i wanted to write my paper about his entire topic. I told my conservative right winged republican grandmother that i was 'bi' as an attempt to kind of 'come out' to her. A few months later i told her that i was a full on raging dyke and she actually told me herself that she was more relieved that i was gay instead of bi. Beofre i came out to the community in high school i came out as being bi. That's why i was curious about stories from others....this is not some fucked up attempt at bashing bisexuas--trust me. I just wanted opinions from various sources to help me write my paper and gain some sort of understnading. Thankd for your help!...-rachel

Replies:

Reply from: satisfied fence-sitter. on 11/9/97 at 11:05AM. i guess i would fit into that #3 category. but i think that's a bit limiting... there are different types of bisexuals: gay-identified bisexuals, straight identified bisexuals, and true (albeit rare) bisexuals where the "bi" title would be short for "ambiguous." i fit somewhere between straight-identified & true, depending on whether the judging is by my actions, or preferences. i have a real problem with the bashing bisexuals get from both sides of the fence, and although i can see where it would be handy for some gays in the process of coming out to "lessen the blow" of that coming out to friends and family by identifying as the more (?) socially acceptable bisexual; just because it was a half-truth for them doesn't mean it isn't someone else's truth. by deciding on what someone else's sexuality is for that person, they're creating a really hostile environment for people to be able to function as their true selves; and that's a setback for everyone. i used to be part of a local lesbian rights group, and i felt like i had to hide any and all attraction i had for men because of the hostile attitudes of my group towards bisexuals -- and that's the SAME type of hate and intimidation that i had joined that group to combat. the same goes for a former girlfriend: although i loved and respected her, she had just come from a position where she was claiming bisexuality, and coming to terms that she was really a bisexual, and it nauseated her to think about having sex with men -- and she reflected that nausea towards actions that she'd done to cover up her true sexuality, onto other bisexual women -- including me. and when i was with her, i felt like i had to hide a huge part of my sexuality and my past just to be acceptable in her eyes. we broke up not long after that. it's really detrimental to the movement for queer rights for gays & lesbians to bash bisexuals, or to claim that our sexualities are false. all gender preferences, or lacks thereof, are equally viable. hating people for not having your particular preference won't gain you any karmic points.

Reply from: Tracey on 11/9/97 at 11:25AM. i'm a 21 yr old lesbian, i don't think that people should bash bi's... i don't care if someone is bi... it doesn't bother me... but coming from a stand point of not being into men... i admit to not completely understanding bisexuality... tho i don't know any straight women who completely understand homosexuality... i feel that just because i don't understand bisexuality doesn't mean i should bash a bisexual... does this help at all...? tracey

Reply from: Bilygrl*seretNinja7 on 11/9/97 at 11:41AM. I don't think there is anything wrong with being Bi,, and women and or lesbians who bash Bisexuals are feeling threatened. Love is love whether you love a girl or a boy,. It's pretty simple..Hi rachelxo***

Reply from: *Andrea* on 11/9/97 at 1:34PM. I don't care if yr male or female, I love who you are, not what's in yr pants. It's pretty hard being bi, you feel alienated from the lesbian community and the straight community, it's like you don't fit anywhere, everybody thinks yr bullshitting one way or the other. Either yr straight and "just likeing girls cuz it's cool", or you're gay and in denial. Both of those assumptions are a load of crap. I think women and men are attractive, dammit, I wish I was just one thing, but I can't help it, I can't deny that I love girls, and I can't deny that I'm attraced to men. So what the fuck am I supposed to do?? I guess I'm just gonna have to be happy by myself, who needs to be included in little segments of society anyway.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/9/97 at 6:34PM. i'm a straight male, my whole view on the thing is,it's a preference like anything ( alot more complicated but basically) if you had the choice vanilla or chocolate which do you prefer. some people are militant in their views, some people it depends on the mood, others need time to figure it out, some people try both and stick to their first choice, same people take one because the other's not available but still prefer the unavailable one, and worst are the ones that make achoice because that's what everyone is doing. i prefer chocolate.

Reply from: janeeta on 11/9/97 at 6:37PM. this whole thread makes me want to cry. surely we should be at a point where we don't have to decide which sexualities are 'valid'. yr project sounds really interesting. i'd like to see the final product. when i have more freetime i'll try and post something more significant. but @ this moment, i don't feel like trying to prove that my sexuality does in fact exist.

Reply from: mouthoff on 11/9/97 at 10:29PM. This whole debate is so rooted in like 20th century Western thinking, which is fucked up thinking IMO. The concepts/language of "gay" "straight" "bisexual" were not introduced into western culture/language until fairly recently (20th cent.). This attempt to segregate everyone into their own lil category is typicaly Western/white, and is not found in many other cultures. In reality most people have varying degrees of bisexuality cuz sexuality is a very fluid thing, not something you can really pin down and label. That's why a lot of people choose to define themselves as "queer" instead of "gay/lesbian" or "bi" because it does not limit you to one way of being;

Reply from: witchbaby on 11/10/97 at 9:55AM. well i am a 20 year old bi-grrrl and i hate the way i am treated. i hate being told that i am no longer a teenager and therefore "need to choose." i hate meeting cute girls who tell me they would never date a bisexual. i hate that my last girlfriend left me for a guy, too, but i am not gonna turn against my own, y'know. i hate that when i first came out in my freshman year all the big dykes on campus thought i was the shit until i told them i was bi. i hate that the first piece of advice i ever got the very first time i came out to someone was "just dont tell girls yer bi..you'll never get a date." i hate the fucking wannabe trendroid girls that kiss other girls to turn on guys and give all of us a bad name. gosh i can go on but i am getting pissed. by the way..great idea for a paper! good luck and feel free to quote me freely! liz witchbaby

Reply from: twisted sisterrr on 11/10/97 at 10:26AM. hey thanks everyone for all the great material...i'll be sure to send a final copy of my paper if anyone wants one...anyway in response to witchbaby's last comment about the 'trendy' grrrls kissing just to turn on the guys....i really loathe that....i mean these are the same girls that bask on that sort of thing outside but to try and be 'trendy' by going to gay friendly clubs and kising other girls to prove to their friends that they are cool is lame.....anyway i just need alittle bit more stuff for my paper and it's almost finished..it's practically writing itself...JANEETA--if you want a copy of my paper just email me and ask okay?.:)...anyway i also have to give a personal story about the dykes to never date bi's: i can see it from both sides honestly...i see how shallow it would being coming from someone who is bisexual to get denied by a lesbian because they are bi..but on the other hand, being a lesbian who once felt that way, i can represent a lot of lesbians when i say a reason for not dating bi's is that a lot of lesbians feel 'threatened' or disgusted if they are dating someone who really grinds on giuys, to be quite honest...i talked about this with a bunch of grrrls from my hometown and they agreed that dating bi's was too 'complicated and fucked up' and they didn't want to 'humility' of being dumped for a man..that's exactly what they said..then i go to cubs where girls kiss and 'freak' with other girls and then outside of these clubs on weekdays they are glorified heterosexuals..go figure...anyway....if anyone else has stories or opinions feel free to bitch or just go off for a while about this topic...BG you rock..hee hee... rachel

Reply from: kate on 11/10/97 at 11:21AM. eyeiyi... i only wish i couldn't relate to what witchbaby said.

Reply from: BiLLYgrl*secretNinja7 on 11/10/97 at 12:04PM. no no rachel.. you @!#$@?<>:!@*rock!

Reply from: janeeta on 11/10/97 at 12:44PM. *sigh* witchbaby, why do you have to be so right and so representative of so many people? it's so fucking frustrating that your words ring true. SOME PEOPLE GO BOTH WAYS! but the thing about girls kissing girls in order to be trendy, i understand the resentment we have towards then. i was probably more resentful than a lot of people here. then someone pointed out to me that these girls must be somewhat curious what it's like to be with a girl if they are going to fool around with each other--no matter what the setting is. just because some of us don't feel the need to fit in with everyone doesn't mean that we are the only ones who are allowed to be "different." granted it is frustrating when girls kiss girls and make it seem like they are just trying to be "cute," but at the same time these girls may not have any other way that they can see to experiment and seek out their true sexual identity. i think there is a lot of truth that girls go through phases and enter friendships where the physical-sexual structures get a bit blurry. i think that it is in that phase that we are able to identify are true sexuality. don't knock these girls because they might be trying to figure out who they are and they might be trying to do that amoing people who aren't ready to accept anything other than heterosexuality.

Reply from: twisted sisterrr on 11/10/97 at 1:20PM. JANEETA---good point...BTW i hope anyone doesn't mind me quoting their stuff for my paper...they're all great points....BG--no no no tiger, i don't think you understand how much YOU rock...*mwah*..-rachel

Reply from: janeeta on 11/10/97 at 2:46PM. i don't mind at all twistedsister. are you quoting us by saying like janet frey says "blahblah" or are you just gonna incorportae what we said into your own words. makes no difference to me really, i'm just curious.

Reply from: twisted sisterrr on 11/10/97 at 2:50PM. Janeeta---if that's okay..:).well now that i knwo yer last name i can say something to the effect of: College student Janet Frey says 'blah blah blah'...or something like that--not so anal retentive.....if you have any major q's just email me at twistedsisterrr@hotmail.com okay? thanks!..xoxoxoxo rachel

Reply from: janeeta on 11/10/97 at 3:09PM. oh no no no you don't have to use my name. really it makes no difference to me. :) i'll email you in a sec :) :) :) *MWAH*

Reply from: rachel on 11/10/97 at 3:29PM. otay..:)

Reply from: lisa on 11/10/97 at 5:10PM. regarding those girls who are only bi because it's the hot new teen trend, it pisses me off to no end. BUT, i would rather have girls kissing other girls just to look like freaks or whatever, than have them harassing me for being queer. isn't it a good sign that people think it's cool to be queer now?

Reply from: kate on 11/10/97 at 6:25PM. lisa, i don't KNOW any girls who are bi because it's the "hot new teen trend." and some of these posts made logical points about why lesbians could be resentful of bi women; but what you said is exactly the kind of sentiment coming from the gay community that hurts me. as someone who can't (and won't) define or limit my sexuality, it makes me angry when i hear others belittle someone else for expressing or experimenting with their sexuality. some of us may not have been in touch with our feelings as early as you, or may not have had as many opportunities to act out our feelings in order to PROVE to you that they're real. but that doesn't make our sexualities any less valid. i've never told someone that they're trendy for being queer, or for "acting" it. cuz it sucks when people have done it to me, and i don't want to make someone else feel that small.

Reply from: janeeta on 11/10/97 at 6:31PM. well kate i don't know if what you're saying goes along with what i said a bit earlier, but i agree with you 100%.... there WAS a point in my life--when i was in high school feeling freaky b/c i knew i was queer and sitting back watching all the other alternateen girls holding hands and kissing in the halls and being called cute for it--that i would have said that i hate "trendoids" or whatever people want to call them. now i realize that people don't experiment and develop the same ways. i guess in high school we were all afraid of not being accepted.... some of us just avoided the "in" crowds all together....others tried to experiment yet still be popular..... we can't knock on anyone for doing things the way they feel comfy doing them.....

Reply from: lisa on 11/10/97 at 6:45PM. i was speaking from personal experience when i talked about the girls who just pretend to be bi, because yes i have known several girls who pretended, and ADMITTED that they were straight and just pretending. i wasn't saying anything about bisexual girls or people who refuse to limit their sexuality or anything like that. i do my best not to judge people or make assumptions. i assume someone is really whatever sexual orientation they say they are. but those girls told me they were doing it to look like freaks.

Reply from: kate on 11/10/97 at 6:53PM. lisa, i can respect your position, and i can't contradict what those girls said to you because i dont know their personal situation. however, i've been in situations where i was accused or asked about being something, and for whatever reason -- sometimes it was because it was an accusatory remark and i didn't feel like coming out as something that my questioner was hostile towards, and sometimes it was someone who i deemed more of an expert on the subject asking me about something, and i didn't think i was worthy to be under the same title or status as that person... either of those things would make me deny or at least not be as vocal about some position of mine that i really held. so i can see someone writing off her playing with another girl as being just a "joke" and it really not being a joke... but she doesn't have enough self esteem at that point to admit it to herself or to others. does that make sense? i don't make an issue of what other's sexualities are, and i respect what people identify as, but i also don't think that "jokes" are always jokes... i think they can be someone's attempt at reaching out for what they really want deep down.

Reply from: twisted sisterrr on 11/10/97 at 8:30PM. this stuff is PERFECT for my paper..you guys ROCK...thank you so much!!!...xoxoxoxoxoxo rachel (feel free to write more if you want)

Reply from: jengrrrl on 11/11/97 at 7:55AM. i hope you are going to be as obejctive as possible because you sound like you might put in some of your friends' opinions and make it sound ike they're right and they're not. Don't fuck over the bisexual population alright?

Reply from: BiLLygrl*secretNinja7 on 11/12/97 at 8:14AM. I don't kow bout' anyone else but i'll break it down like this... I think it sucks that there is seperation among the very people who are allready seperated in society,,,. it's relly lame actually. I will say where I live people who are bi are called "swingers", and that is not a good thing i guess.. when I say i'm a swinger that means i'm single, call me crazy.. but when i said i was a swinger people were all shocked because of this stupid lable sexuality slang sh*t.. I don't really give a shit or any of my energy to someone who is going to label me anyway so to allthe people out there who don't like people for liking someone because of who they are and not what sex they are need to grow up... whoa was that harsh?? umm .. yeah thats it...( no .. see rachel youarethe onethatrocksmyworldsoyoubettergetusedtotheidea*ugh!xoxo

Reply from: BiLLYgrl*secretNiNja7 on 11/12/97 at 8:18AM. PPPPSSSS> but I will add dating bi's is fuggin' rough and it sucks when your totally in love and then yer girlfriend moves to Holland to live with her boyfriend.....

Reply from: kate cooties on 11/12/97 at 9:04AM. billygirl, actually, the definition of a swinger is someone who partner swaps, and usually refers to a married (het) couple who takes a third party into their bedroom, or trades off with another couple. so i can see where you'd get harsh reactions if you misused that word. however, most of the bisexual people i know do not fit that definition, and the words "swinger" and "bisexual" are not interchangeable. yeah, swingers ARE part of the bisexual population, but when swingers are seen as the norm, it's no different than when leather-mommies & drag queens are seen as the norm of the lesbian and gay communities: it's taking a small segment of our total population, and using it to pigeonhole all of us. presenting only one side of the argument, so to speak. swingers & drag queens & leathermommies are totally important parts of our community and should be respected as such, but they do not represent the WHOLE. that's why we have that rainbow flag-- it means diversity. doesn't it? since this thread has started, i've taken to the library & my bookshelves, and read a lot of stuff on bisexuality, and it seems like we're always presented as 3 things. fence-sitters, swingers, and/or heterosexuals waiting to stomp on the hearts of innocent lesbians. and i agree with billygirl, that it would suck for your partner to move off to another country with her exboyfriend... but people of ALL genders and preferences have the potential to break hearts. it's not something bisexuals have a monopoly on: it's part of life.

Reply from: twisted sisterrr on 11/12/97 at 11:44AM. BILLYGRL---yah it also sux when yer girlfriend dumps you to fuck your former ex best friend who's a guy....that's the shittiest..*cry*...but that' happened a long time ago....ugh..xoxoxoxo rachel

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/12/97 at 1:26PM. why is it worse for a girl to dump you for a guy than it is for a girl to dump you for another girl? to bisexuals, gender is irrelevant to love. so if someone more emotionally appealing comes along, why does it hurt worse for that to be a guy? i can understand being afraid a girl will say, oh i don't like girls after all.... but just being dumped, i don't know why gender matters.

Reply from: janeeta on 11/12/97 at 1:27PM. whoops that last post was me. i am a goofin-up-squirrel today!

Reply from: sherri on 11/12/97 at 2:57PM. Although i think that it's important to have labels like bisexual etc... in order to create and maintain "community" (whatever that means), people put too much emphasis on labels. Labels should be used to identify yrself so that you can find other people who identify themselves that way, but too often they're used to exclude and stigmatize people. There's a fine line between using labels to include and using labels to exclude. I don't like people from either side of the fence telling me that there's only two sides and i have to choose which one i'm going to be on. Firstly, it's ridiculous and hypocritical of homosexuals to say that someone has to be exactly what they are.... doesn't that sound just a bit like the statements and philosophies of the religious right, the christian coalition....? And for straight people to tell someone that their form of sexuality is wrong, perverted whatever is just the heterosexist community trying to wield their power and privilege; too many people asserting themselves could lead to an overthrow of the type of society we live in. And my last point that i'm gonna try to make is that sexuality is fluid...right? Just say yr sexual, that's good enough for me.

Reply from: Kirstin on 11/12/97 at 7:25PM. Okay, here's my story. I came out as bi when I was 15...thinking that it was better than being gay. I did date guys and girls, but not until a few months ago, when I realized that I really loved my girlfriend now, did I ever consider myself a lesbian. I think I had to discover it for myself. I know I couldn't love someone like I love her, so I must be a lesbian. I also realize that of all the people I've dated, the guys have always been just friends to me. I don't think that bi bashing is right because I was never really sure until now what I was. It takes people time to discover their real feelings.

Reply from: kate cooties on 11/12/97 at 7:27PM. sherri, i agree with what you said about labels being too prevalent & attributed too much importance in our community... but in this media [chainsaw] we're using it's kinda hard to just leave it to the imagination. i don't define my sexuality beyond "i'm with _______." i just let my affections take their course. but for clarity in here, that fluidity to disregard gender is being called "bisexuality" and those with more static preferences for a certain gender are referred to as gay or straight. *shrug* our sentiments are the same, but i'm willing to sacrifice the ambiguity for sake of a conversation. by the way, have you been reading Carol Queen? *laughing* :)

Reply from: kate on 11/12/97 at 7:36PM. kirsten, congrats! i'm glad that you've found yourself, and found love. but (as usual) i've gotta stick in my 2cents: that while bisexuality for you was a transitional stage for finding who you really are, it's not a transition for some folks -- it IS who they really are. i'm not a lesbian thinking i'm a bisexual 'til i meet the right woman... just like i'm not a heterosexual mistakenly believing i'm bisexual until i meet the right man. i'm a full-blown fence-sitter taking & sharing love wherever i find it. that's me.

Reply from: janeeta on 11/12/97 at 8:03PM. me too. duh.

Reply from: lisa on 11/12/97 at 8:05PM. someone made a comment about sexuality being fluid and i think that's really important. although i identify as a dyke now, when i was younger i liked some boys. most of them were really about me trying to pretend i was straight, but i can't say that i didn't honestly like a few of them. i haven't liked a boy in a long time, so i feel justified in calling myself a dyke now. but who knows, maybe i will like a boy again sometime in the future. i HIGHLY doubt it, but i guess there's a possibility. so the point of this is that i think it's possible for yr sexuality to change over yr life. maybe not for everyone, but i bet it is for a lot of people. i already said this on a different thread but i'll say it again. i think the majority of people are probably bisexual to one degree or another. i don't think most people are actually completely,100% queer or 100% straight. like i'm probably 95% lesbionic or something. and i think yr percentage of queerness can change, depending on who's in your life, who yr seeing, what's going on in your life, etc. xo lisa

Reply from: janeeta on 11/12/97 at 8:22PM. yeah the fluid thing is way cool. in my fictions of gender class we were talking about homosociality... we were discussing it mainly in the context of male to male relationships, maybe because men have even less freedom to be physically affectionate than women without being assumed to be "queer." anyway, the concept of homosocialty says that there are no definitive lines between straight and gay. instead their is a line that looks something like this: platonic________________________________________________erotic a person can fall anywhere on this line and each relationship a person has can fall anywhere on this line, regardless of the gender. what this says is that there are varying degrees of homoeroticism in all relationships (whether that degree is an absence, a mild amount, a strong amount, or complete eroticism). sometime in the last 150 years or so, people decided to start dividing the line up so that now it looks like this: heterosexual________________________|________________________homosexual so now people want you to be on one side or other of that line. unfortunately, very few, if any, people fall completely on one side of the line 100% of the time...... just something to think about

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