Written by: Bob_Cousin_O on 5/15/98 at 4:54PM.
Are any of you out there pro-life? I was just wondering if I was the only one. I really dont believe that a woman is just taking control of her own body by having an abortion she is holding 3 lives in the palm of her hand...hers, the baby's, and the fathers. I don't feel this way because of any religios reasons, I believe this because I think above all abortion is selfish...why should you deciede if that baby gets to live. If you weren't responsable enough to protect yourself from pregnancy or even if you were you knew there was that small chance that you could get or get someone pregnant so I dont believe you should take that baby's right to live away. I don't really care at what piont the girl has an abortion during the pregnancy because from the second that the egg is fertalized (at least I believe) it is a living thing. It isn't just a mass of cells it is a human being that is just in the begining stages of life.
Replies:
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:00PM. i believe abortion *as a means of birth control* is wrong.. but.. abortion isnt always wrong... like rape.. or if the mother's life is in danger.. every situation is different. there is no black or white.
Reply from: Bob_Cousin_O on 5/15/98 at 5:03PM. I was only taking about Black and white circumstances and there are some Black and White circumstances. I dont mean rape or when the mothers life or health is in danger. I was only taking about: Woman gets pregnant;she doesn't want to have the baby;she has an abortion. That is about as Black and White as it gets...at least I think
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:07PM. yeah.. thats what i meant by "as means of birth control."
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:10PM. It makes me mad when they say its not a life. it fucking is, it has its own unique DNA, not the womans. dont put any shit up there, or take any fucked up `herbal` poison and it *will* grow into a human, maybe even a dyke! just because right wing people say one thing, it doesnt make it right to believe the opposite. open your minds.
Reply from: Bob_Cousin_O on 5/15/98 at 5:13PM. *clap, clap, clap*...Or maybe it will grow up and find a cure for cancer or AIDS.
Reply from: cherry bomb on 5/15/98 at 5:30PM. i am not pro-life. i should state that right now. i think it's really easy for you to say that she is holding the father's life in the palm of her hand but it's her life that is effected more than his. it's sad but her boyfriend/lover/husband should not have any control over her body since it's her body. it's her who has to carry that baby. she has to deal with any problems. she has to sacrifice part of her life to give birth to a child. she will have to take time off of work. she will have to go thru any and all pain and hardship. until men can carry a child and give birth i don't think it's fair for men to try and make that decision. it's easier for guys to walk away. they can decide at month 8 they don't want anything to do with that baby anymore but once they reach that time it's very very damn near impossible for women to make the decision to ditch the baby right there. i'm pro-choice (that doesn't mean pro-abortion). i just think it is nobody's right to decide for the woman except the woman herself. xox angela kay
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:38PM. fucking dodged the points i made. its not about *anyones* choice. you can create life human life, it does not mean you have the right to kill it.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:41PM. `she has to sacrifice part of her life to give birth to a child. she will have to take time off of work. she will have to go thru any and all pain and hardship` maybe your parents will get sick, that could fuck up your life in a similar way, going to `terminate` them?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:42PM. even if the egg or fetus is a life and not just a mass of cells, what's so wrong with taking that life? life isn't precious... expecially not a life with no experiences.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:45PM. life isnt precious? what kind of statement is that? so i could take your life right now and it wouldnt matter?
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:46PM. oh.. by the way.. when we starting deciding who has the right to live and who doesnt.. we're in some *serious* shit.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:46PM. just because you dont value life dont bring your shit on an innocent.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:47PM. it would matter to a certain extent... it would matter to those whom i have affected, who care about me. but the reason anyone cares about me is because i have lived and shown them reason to care.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:49PM. stupid. your value isnt measured by others.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:50PM. well uh.. the baby hasnt had a chance to affect people.. dont you think he/she should? someone gave *you* that chance.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:51PM. but.. if i died, it wouldn't matter to me. get it.. cos i'd be dead? yeah..
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:52PM. you are truly stupid.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:53PM. exactly.. the egg/fetus/baby/blob of tissues/whatever hasn't had a chance. therefore its life is insignificant.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:54PM. to the person who said: you are truly stupid. are you the same one who said 'your stupid'? cos if so, at least i know how to spell and use correct grammar buddy.
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 5:54PM.
Maybe the point that person was trying to make is this:
What makes a life special isn't simply the fact that it's alive. If it's alive but doesn't have any knowledge that it is alive, or any awareness at all of its state then how much importance can you credibly put on its simply "being a life"? I suppose it depends on whether or not you belief that all life is in some way sacred (and not necessarily in a religious sense. Claire.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:55PM. for the last time the point is you have no rght to say its life is insignificant, and more importantly you have no right to terminate it and prevent it from having its chance. fuck. no more.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:55PM. theres this little thing we people who value life call "potential." and uh.. who are you to say that it's life is insignifigant?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:58PM. if you resort to dissing my grammar you show your weakness of arguement and character. fuck you.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 5:58PM. why do i have no right to say its (no there is no apostrophe. take note of that) life is insignificant? please explain...
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 5:58PM. i'm gonna say this then i'm gonna try and shut up. a baby thats already been born sits in a crib, eats, cries, and goes to the bathroom. does it contribute to society? is its life insignificant? would you kill it just because you were tired of taking care of it?
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:00PM. sorry, i *have* to reply to that. if you have the right, then *i* have the right. and now that i have the right, i say that *your* life is insignifigant. *BAM!!* you're dead.. get my point???
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:02PM.
OK, taking the "potentiality" argument - who's to say that it won't grow up to become the next Hitler? Just cause that feotus might cure cancer isn't a strong enough argument because it could potentially do an almost infinite number of positive or negative things.
I'm just looking at the arguments to see if they make sense. I wish the anonymous viewers would have the guts to name themselves and join in a reasonable discussion Claire.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:02PM. no.. i already tried to explain this. i am not a fetus. we're talking about abortion here... abortion involves unborn fetuses, not fully developed people.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:02PM. i dont think they will get the point, maybe they will correct your grammar, that would prove they are right and you are wrong
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:04PM. claire, fuck you if i want to be anonymous i can be. `maybe they`ll grow up to be hitler` fuck off. you are too stupid to discuss it with.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:04PM. and the life of a living baby is more significant than that of a fetus. you can develop feelings for and care for something that you can see and observe and touch. it's pretty hard to develop feelings for a part of your body.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:05PM. and who says im unreasonable just because you dont agree???
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:06PM. oh fuck you all. its like nailing jello to a tree.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:08PM. christ.. anyonymous viewer that isn't me... if we're too stupid to argue with, then stop trying! you're getting nowhere by telling us to fuck off.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:10PM. uh.. so.. the baby doesnt have the right to live 2 seconds before its born, but right after.. it does? when do you decide that the baby is *worthy* or not.. and this "observe, touch" shit is ridiculous.. that statement was so shallow its not even funny. love is all concrete senses huh? i dont think so..
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:11PM.
I'm not saying "maybe they'll grow up to be Hitler" is a good argument. I'm saying that pinning the reason for the right to life on what that foetus "might" become doesn't work.
But this "discussion" is getting way too heated and abusive. So I'll leave it until it picks up again. Take a pill, Jill G'night. Claire
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:12PM. how can you love something that does nothing but sit inside of you? at that point the fetus is a part of your body.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:14PM. and i don't think the baby has the 'right' to live before or after its born. living isn't a 'right'.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:16PM. ok.. umm.. everyones gonna leave this argument with their same opinions.. so.. whats the point.. i keep trying to shut up but i cant resist when i read some of this stupid shit people are saying.. i'm gonna try now though.. heh.. one *last* thing- do you consider a misquito(sp?) a part of your body?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:19PM. no. how in the hell can you compare a misquito to a fetus? the fetus starts out as two cells in your body.. one of which is your own.. and grows from your body inside your uterus. it is a part of you. a misquito is not.
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:19PM. OK. It's better already. We're getting heavily philosophical here. Specifically: is there such a thing as "natural rights" (i.e. the right to life, regardless) or is their only "legal rights" (i.e. the right to life, as laid down by government). I answered a question on this in one of my final exams. Think I fucked it up though, so maybe I should stay away from this one. Suffice to say there's no easy answer.
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:27PM. ok i'm going by this name now for clarification. i don't believe there are natural 'rights'. saying living is a right implies that it is something precious to be cherished. i don't believe in that.. life is something that just occurs. it isn't a gift, and it isn't special. it's just there.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:27PM. according to you.. the misquito and the fetus can be killed without harm.. dont contradict yourself. i've got to leave this message board.. because everyone is dodging my questions and taking aim at the wrong things.. but basically.. life is a privelage.. but nooone has the right to decide who should be denied of that privelage. because none of us are better than any of the rest of us. theres no way to know when the zygote becomes a person.. and if you say that it's at the time of birth thats bullshit and you know it.
Reply from: cherry bomb on 5/15/98 at 6:27PM. first of all you 2, 3, 5, 35 people are all pretty hilarious. all the anons were the funniest. :)
you said "its not about *anyones* choice. you can create life human life, it does not mean you have the right to kill it." i don't. but i'm sorry that still doesn't mean its your decision to decide what a woman is going to do with her body.
you said: "if you resort to dissing my grammar you show your weakness of arguement and character. fuck you." you're saying this person has a weak argument? you're the one arguing back with "fuck you". lol. yr not the one to talk.
you said: "claire, fuck you if i want to be anonymous i can be. `maybe they`ll grow up to be hitler` fuck off. you are too stupid to discuss it with." vulgarity and petty insults will not win this battle.
i really wish someone more articulate would take a stand here. i know there are tonnes of pro-choice people here... speak up! gosh.
ummm and do you realize that if you are american you are extremely hypocritical? i will assume that the majority of people here live in america... so then i will also assume the majority of you are the ones speaking against abortion. do you realize you pay you tax money to a government and country that thrives on war and killing people. producing land mines which have hurt millions of civilians. babies... teenagers.. seniors... everyone. so how can you be so pro-choice and still support a country who's main trade is killing? i will also relate this back to agism vs. specism. are you a vegetarian? i mean who are you to decide which specie gets to live and which gets to die? blah. angela kay
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:29PM. i've already asked you this.. if you dont cherish life, then that means i can kill you.. is that ok? ok i'm gonna leave. end of Gabe vs. The World =)
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:31PM. yes, according to me the misquito and the fetus/blob/whatever CAN be killed without harm. i'm not contradicting myself. i admit that.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:32PM. DAMMIT I CANT SHUT UP! the woman isnt deciding just for herself.. she's deciding for another person.. thats what we dont agree on.
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:33PM. i DON'T cherish life... i've made that perfectly clear. duh. and no, killing me is not the same as killing a fetus. i'm not saying my life is precious or that a lot is lost by killing me. but MORE is lost by killing someone who has LIVED than 'killing' (if you can even consider abortion killing) a fetus. something is more than nothing.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:34PM. then why did you ask me "how can you compare a misquito and a fetus?"
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:35PM. so you *do* cherish life? you obviously cherish your own.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:36PM. ok... i think it's pretty safe to say that in most abortion cases the decision was either made by both the male and the female or that the male wasn't involved. so it really isn't affecting the male's life.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:38PM. no.. by the other person i meant *the baby." and your reply is gonna be "its not a baby" and mine is gonna be "yes it is!" etc.
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:38PM.
Reading back on the messages I think there was only really that one person who was inarticulate and insulting. And they seem to have buggered off, so...
To take Gabe's point, I'm pro-choice and I don't see life as a "privilege". I don't feel grateful every day for having life, because if I didn't have it I'd be none the wiser.
That's not to say that I don't think that there's times when life should be protected, and that's what legal rights are for. That's why I'm happy that murder is illegal.
But would the pro-life folks who have spoken so far really want abortion completely outlawed? Considering the fact that it'll go on regardless, just underground and with even *more* lives at risk.
Claire
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:39PM. i asked how you could compare a misquito and a fetus because in the context that you said it it made no sense. and no, i don't cherish life.. like i just said in my last post.. i enjoy life, i don't cherish it. there's a difference.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:41PM. if you notice.. my first point was i'm against abortion as a means of birth control.. like if some idiot guy and some idiot girl get pregnant, and decide to have an abortion because they dont want to deal with consequences.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:41PM. if im inarticulate and insulting it doesnt make my points invalid, like you wish it did.
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:42PM. but wouldn't the baby be better off having never existed than being raised by uncaring parents?
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:43PM. anon... yes it does make your points invalid. for one, you have no points. second, no one takes an inarticulate, insulting person seriously.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:44PM. this is doing nothing but making me mad and wasting time.. so.. alright guys and gals.. good discussion(some of it).. and you anon people should show your faces =) b'bye and sweet dreams
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:46PM. this is my *last* comment.. i swear =) xxx- none of us have the right to decide that.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:47PM. xxx you make me very sad, to say i havent made any points i tryed and tryed.
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:47PM.
Your points are as valid as mine. I just disagree with them. When you start insulting people, though, I kind of lose interest in what you've got to say and start just finding it funny instead.
Claire
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:48PM. none of us have the right to decide.. so leave it up to the people who created the fetus. give them the option of abortion.
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:49PM. I'm going to bed now too. Enjoyed that. :)
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:49PM. uh.. well.. in your situation the parents are uncaring.. so.. do you think their decision will be the right one?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 6:50PM. claire none of this is funny, i insulted you because you insulted me for being anon, i was out of line when i insulted you over the hitler thing but i cant describe how frustrating it is when people dodge my points and just reel off stuff like that in `reply`
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 6:51PM. ok i'm going! xxx- no hard feelings i hope.. even though i have no idea who you are =) b'bye
Reply from: xxx on 5/15/98 at 6:57PM. i think pregnant parents who don't want the baby will either give it up for adoption or abort. and if parents are uncaring then they probly don't want the baby.. and in that situation i think the best thing to do would be to give it up or abort.. so yes, i thik uncaring parents would make the right decision.
Reply from: cmc on 5/15/98 at 6:57PM. Last point. I find it funny when people call me stupid by means of a reply. I'm sorry if you thought I was dodging your points and the dig at anonymous viewers was because if someone's going to contribute to a discussion with "you are truly stupid" they could at least put their name or a nickname so we'd have someone to reply to. If you feel strongly about this topic, fine, so do I. The "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude does fuck-all for a discussion though.
Reply from: sgsdfh on 5/15/98 at 7:02PM. Gabe. so you are so anti abortion, that's great: don't fucking have one then. but i'll have one if i fucking need to, and if you have a problem with that you can just go straight to hell.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 7:15PM. uh.. i just came back to see what was said.. nice whoever you are. way to have guts behind an anon name. and i wasnt being mean to anyone, i was just stating my opinion. damn.. got alot of pent up anger huh? nowhere did i insult anyone intentionally.. fine.. go have an abortion, i dont give a shit, its your decision, do what the fuck you want to. and uh.. i'm not passing judgement on anyone, so get the fucking chip off your fucking shoulder. i'm sorry for "responding to a negative post," but i cant help it. fucking immature retard. i respect your opinions, just not that lame ass personal attack.
Reply from: Bob_Cousin_O on 5/15/98 at 7:21PM. I simply asked for your opinions people...My God, if your going to insult people for there beliefs what the fuck are you doing at chainsaw...In responce to the mosquito thing...A mosquito is a parasite not a human being. I dont believe there is a piont at which you can deciede when a baby's life becomes significant. There is no minute at which it's life becomes human enough to mean something. From the time that the egg was fertilixed it WAS a human life. And about this mass of cells this...You at this moment are a mass of cells. So what if the fetus has less cells in it's mass if you do. And your trying to say that it has been sheltered and does not know pain or feelings, Well just for arguements sake we'll say that a perswon was kept in a cave there entire life. The have been alone and only know of there cave and there surroundings. They don't know what love is or anything. Should we kill it jkust because you have decieded it doesn't matter sinse it has not been in the world yet...(I wrote this in red so you all would red it) I didn't set this up to try and change anyones opinion, I was a little agrivated about the post about herbal abortion because of it's portrayal of pro-life, so I set this up so people would perhaps gain an understanding of why people think the way they do on this subject.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 7:28PM. sorry about that.. but they started it! pffft! heh.. its nice to know people actually think for themselves, whatever their opinions are, and dont just spew out what others have told them to think.
Reply from: Bob_Cousin_0 on 5/15/98 at 7:31PM. I wasn't talking to you Gabe...I was really talking to the people who did start it. So if anyone wants to respond to this dont respond with insults because you sound really stupid, unless of courde someone insults you because then you have every right to say something back.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 7:35PM. yeah.. i know =)
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 7:36PM. just cos you started ths post doesnt make you in charge, dont be such a fucking pussy.
Reply from: w on 5/15/98 at 7:36PM. "Gabe" without an email address is basically just as anonymous as "sgsdfh". Oh, and 1. Don't call people retards. 2. Contradict yourself much?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 7:38PM. dont like the points made? character assissinate the poster. THATS real mature.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 7:41PM. ya know.. i'm *really* trying to be nice. i called that person a retard because they insulted me.. yeah yeah i should just grin and bare it right? why do i get the feeling that you people wouldnt be saying this shit if you had the same opinions as me.. i'm trying to keep this non-personal.. but its getting fucking hard. and.. asshole.. everyone knows me as gabe, i log on as gabe in the chatroom.. and i'm taking all of this shit without changing my fuckin name arent i? "w"
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 7:44PM. alright.. i'm not gonna lower myself to the mudslinging level.. sorry about that... it makes me just as immature as them. i respect your opinions, and i dont insult you because of them. i'd really appreciate it if you'd do the same.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 7:54PM. a girl should do whatever she wants A) i never met a woman who used abortion as "birth control" B)even if she did, noone should EVER tell her she is wrong for doing so. C)the father should have no say in the matter D)this ridiculous namecalling and fighting should stop o, and overpopulation is the biggest threat to our future on earth
Reply from: pee on 5/15/98 at 7:58PM. oh, and this "retard" thing should really be addressed. It is fucked up to use that word as an insult because there are people born that way who cannot help it... its like a straight person using dyke or faggot as an insult
Reply from: Z on 5/15/98 at 8:02PM. I hope that with my comments here that no-one will enter into the verbal fist fighting that has been going on before.
I am a pro choice male. Here is my stance. First off, most abortions occur in the first trimester. During most of this period, the "child" isn't even a fetus. It's a zygote, a collection of cells without any cohesive tissue collections. There is no nervous system, there is no bone structure, there is no organism. This is why I have no problem with an abortion. Now, It's all well and good that you don't believe in abortions. If you get pregnant (or your girlfriend) and you decide to have the child, then great. I hope that you are able to raise a kind and considerate child. But when the idea no longer becomes an issue of personal morals and enters the realm of dogma, then I have a problem with it. Second, banning abortions will not end abortions. The fact that there are more abortions in Brazil where they are illegal then there are in America is concrete example. What it will do is criminilize it, and force it into the back alleys. There, unsanitary rooms and tools will unnecisarily endager the woman. There is a reason that at pro-choice demonstrations there are picket signs with a no wire hangers emblem. For any idea of the horror that these backalley abortions cause, I suggest you talk to anyone who had an abortion in the late sixties early seventies. Finally, the question was raised should the parents of the child who were idiots to get pregnant should have to give birth to the child. I think that in terms of responsibility, it is obvious that these parents would have none at all. So to assume that they would care for the child after birth is dangerous. The early childhood of their kid will profoundly affect the child's behavior in the future, making it more likely to get it self or someone else pregnant, not to mention possibly a petty thief, murder, drug dealer, neo-nazi, or on the other end, clinically depressed. None of these people are happy. All of them have profound problems usually related to their early years. By attempting to force other people to their own rigid dogma, right to lifers are potentially endagering generations.
This is my stance on this issue. I will listen to any responses not attacking me personally, and would be glad to discuss my views with you.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 8:06PM. so i used the word "retard." so you've never called anyone that.. or said "that was retarded?" it really doesnt matter either way, because i didnt mean it as an insult to those unfortunate enough to be born that way, so please dont make an issue of it. if you want to get technical and ridiculously p.c., i can play that game too. just because we dont agree doesnt mean you have to find every flaw in everything i say. the person who started this insult crap said "straight to hell." oh gee, what if a christian were reading this? they might be offended! get over it, everything is not a big deal. i'm tired and i'm getting edgy, and i'm sorry. i really dont mean anything personal by any of my comments. and to some of you, read the entire debate before you take *one* thing someone says out of context and use it against them. -gabe
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 8:10PM. reasonable arguement at last. sure, some valid points, apart from the zygote thing, i mean, if i go to smack you in the face, halfway there you arent smacked in the face, but you will be. What you call `dogma` i call `morality` its not a religious thing necessarily. i think this is where you and i differ. respect
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 8:10PM. I'm not going to go of on the dyke/faggot/insult thing though I would like to but anyway I am not a pussy...at least I hope not and I didn't say i was in charge I just thought things were going a little off the subject and people were getting insulted and people were insulting other people. And next how can you say that it is not wrong to use abortion as a means of birth conrtol...that is wrong, for several reasons. 1-if people continue to do that than they are really gonna mess up there reproductive systems, 2-government funding goes into abortion clinics, money that could be used for more important things, and any woman who uses abortion as birth control is wrong. A woman can do whatever she wants to her body I agree, but when it comes to abortion it is not just her body. And I hate it when people say "if men want to keep the baby's let them carry them" well a friend of mine said this in response to that "they can't". That is just the way it works out. So if they could carry the baby and the mother didn't want to they would.
Reply from: Z on 5/15/98 at 8:24PM. No, you see, there is a clear distinction between morality and dogma. Morality is an individual's concept of what is right and what is wrong. A christian saint has as much morals as a homicidal maniac, they are just wildly different. Dogma on the other hand is a precise concept that a group or institution hold to unflinchingly and demand that others comply to them as well. That is what the right to lifers espouse, that everyone in the world conform to their ideals. I personally have an incredible problem with dogma. If you read my editorial in "Toxic Shock" this would be readily appearant that i hate dogma in all it's forms, be it revolutionary or reactionary. The morals of a society will most often work it's self out by societal pressure. Murder is a case where a "moral" also hold ground for societal order. To expand on the ideas of Hobbes, governments are in place by humans so that they may sustain order. Thus, murder is not condusive to order in any modern (industrial) society. Abortion however is not an act that creates social disturbance (at least not on the scale that wanton murder would) so governments should not be the agents to regulate it. Instead the individual morals of the individual people should be what decides if an abortion is done or not.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 8:31PM. i can't articulate very well how fucked up the christian-"go straight to hell" and comparing that to calling someone retarded is...anyone?
Reply from: Gabe on 5/15/98 at 8:38PM. drop it.. if you cant make the connection.. then somethings wrong. i'm tired of this insult shit.. its fucking OLD.
Reply from: anonymous on 5/15/98 at 10:09PM. Being a x-tian is a choice; being a "retard" is not. Gabe, baby, you seem to be someone who is pent up with rage and anger, mistaking critiques of your argument with personal attacks on your integrity. I suggest a good dose of prayer and bible-reading for your pain.
Reply from: anonymous on 5/15/98 at 10:14PM. excuse me, but if a zygote is human life, does that mean taking a birth control pill is murder? Does that mean if I jerk off, wipe the cum off with a towel, is that selfishly denying potential life to a person who could go on to "discover the cure for AIDS." I knew there were good reasons to feel guilty for masturbation.
Reply from: Z on 5/15/98 at 10:27PM. Anonymous, whoever you are, thank you. I neglected that, I guess because at the momemt I forgot about those points. The unfortunate thing is that under orthodox Christian dogma, yes, a birthcontrol pill is murder, and masturbation is unholy for the very reasons that you mentions. Religion can get so stupid when it becomes institutionalized.
Reply from: Mike Saboo on 5/15/98 at 10:28PM. Count me in as being militantly pro-choice. First...zygotes are not human beings. Not even close. A small clump of fertilized cells has NONE of the things that define sentient human life, no nervous system, no brain, nothing that could make it possible for it to feel pain or think. Therefore as far as I'm concerned until it gestates to the point of having nerve impulses and brain activity, it's no more alive than the blister on my foot.
Second, if the "potential life" arguement applies to a clump of twelve or so undifferentiated cells in a woman's uterus, then why not apply it to cancerous tumors or intestinal parasites? They're both alive, why don't they deserve the right to flourish inside a woman's body regardless of the physical effects on her? With all this ranting about those "innocent" zygotes (does that mean if there's ever a "guilty" fetus you'd let the woman carrying it have an abortion?) people seem to be forgetting that the real, living, breathing, thinking woman that said zygote is inside of has the undeniable and unquestionable right to do with her body whatever she wants to. If that zygote, tumor, parasite or whatever is in HER body against HER wishes, she and she alone should decide if it should stay there. Not the government, not the sperm donor, nobody else but her. Ever. One last thing, in response to this... 1 if people continue to do that than they are really gonna mess up there reproductive systems, So rather than actually try and develop faster, earlier and safer abortion and birth control methods, we should force women to bear unwanted children to save their reproductive systems? 2-government funding goes into abortion clinics, money that could be used for more important things, and any woman who uses abortion as birth control is wrong. What are these "more important things" that the tiny sliver of federal funding spent on abortion services (anyone but me remember that federally funded clinics can't even MENTION abortion when counseling pregnant women?) should be spent on? Child care for the millions of unwanted babies that restricting abortion would produce, or funerals for all the women who'll die trying to end their pregnancies in bathrooms and back alley "clinics"? Abortion for ANY reason is a right, regardless of how valid you feel that another persons reasons are, they have the right to decide what to do to their own bodies, not you.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/15/98 at 10:54PM. hell. i don't want to get into this, because i'm no good at debates. but it's kinda amazing how quickly this post accumulated 90+ replies, isnt it?
Reply from: ashley on 5/16/98 at 0:56AM. ugh. the whole "but it's a life!" argument is ridiculous. even if it is a life, it is still 100% dependent on the mother. it does not become an independent being until it is capable of sustaining life on it's own. without a placenta. i find it funny that most of the pro-life people who post on her are MALE,, isn't it convenient that you can have that stance but you'll never directly deal with this issue. xoxo ashley P.S. let me also ask how this evil aborting woman is taking the life of the man into her hand? uhmm. i do think that the woman should talk to the father about her situation, cos its half his, but ultimately the decision is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT up to her and he can't do shit about it.
Reply from: cera on 5/16/98 at 8:08AM. okay, i could only read the first 50 messages so i don't know what the current conversation is. all i want to say is that if a fetus is terminated, and it was really meant to be on earth, it will come back, probably to parents who WANT the child, who are more able to take care of it. i personally think it's selfish to bring a baby into this world if you know you can't do shit for it, if you know you'll hafta pay a daycare center to raise it, if you know you might not always have enough $ to pay the water bills & the baby will have to go w/out a bath until you CAN pay them... or if yr addicted to ANY drug, you can actually hurt yrself by trying to quit cold turkey for the fetus, and if yr already 2+ mos pregnant, the damage could already be done. it's just a lot smarter, & more civil, to have an abortion if you can't take care of it. and no adoption isn't the answer either. if you think yr child will be raised by a wonderful loving family, well, yr chances are maybe 1/50. i guess that's all i can say for now. <3<3<3
Reply from: BoB_Cousin_O on 5/16/98 at 9:03AM. In response to the whole parasite thing...Intestinal worms and cancer ARE harmful a fetus is not ALWAYS harmful. 2nd of all a baby gets it's nervous system in the first tri-mester so it can feel pain...at least that's what I heard. And it doesn't matter anyway. So what if it is just a little clump of cells. It is alive and it is human. And no birthcontrol is not murder and masterbation is not murder because when you take birth control you are not fertalizing the egg hence it is just a cell not a human life. That is the weekest arguement in my opinion because sperm by itself cannot turn into a baby and an egg by itself will not become a baby. If they are put together it becomes a different situation.
Reply from: Bob_Cousin_O on 5/16/98 at 9:07AM. Over population would not be a problem if people did not always get pregnant. If you didn't want the baby then you shouldn'y have had sex, and further more over population would not be a problem if we conserved natural resources and treated the planet better. So the best way to keep the population down is to stop having sex. That is the best way to deal with an unwanted child. Doesn't that seem a little more humane to all of you? It makes a lot more sense than killing your child.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/16/98 at 9:24AM. babies=oppression
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/16/98 at 9:50AM. babies=oppression? so i suppose `a married mother is raped twice? once by the husband, once by the baby`? god help you.
Reply from: Bob_Cousin_0 on 5/16/98 at 11:34AM. Baby's do not=oppression...and a married woman who has a baby has not been raped by her husband (if the choose to have the baby and it was consentual sex or even if they didn't choose to have a baby she hasn't been raped) and how can ahyone be "pro abortion" Duh without baby's we will no longer have a human race. I a not rying to make anyone feel bad. I NEVER I repeat I NEVER said anything in judgement towards your decision. I was only stating my opinion. And even if you were using birth control you know that there is no fool method of contraception and if you didn't want the baby in my opinion you shouldn't have had sex in the first place. For that moment of pleasure you decieded to have you are going to kill an unborn child because it was not planned, because it is inconvienient to have a child because you can't give up any of you precisious time...that has to be one of the most selfish things in the world. If you were reponsible enough to have sex in the firstplace you should have also been responsible enough to except the possibility of pregnancy. That was not meant as judgement towards you even though it sounds like it. That senario can be applyed to all situations (that are black and white as we have established before)
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Reply from: Bob_Cousin_O on 5/16/98 at 11:37AM. I meant fool proof method of conc
Reply from: Z on 5/16/98 at 12:23PM. One of my main points here is not being addressed. Bob, you claim that if a person is responsible enough to have sex, unprotected sex, (or in your mind protected sex since it is appearantly the same thing in your mind) then they should have to deal with the responsibility of the child. Let me remind you that a child is not just some sort of robot that becomes a possession that the parents have to raise. This child is deeply and profoundly affected by it's upbringing. A couple who has unprotected sex thinking that they wont get pregnant most likely is not responsible enough to deal with a child. Would you then condemn that child to a life of potential emotional, verbal, or physical abuse? That is tantamount to suggesting that Rudolph Hess be forced to run the German government so that he can learn how to lead a country responsibly. Now, undoubtably you will retort to say that a child should be given up for adoption. While there are many cases where adoption works wonderfully, (my own aunt adopted a child, and she is a wonderful girl) the situation is not all pleasant. The houses that they can be placed in can be just as abuseive, and many children move from many different houses. Additionaly, there is an incredible emotional bond that occurs between the mother and child at birth, and makes it very hard for the mother to give it up. But that does not mean that the mother is capable of raising this child.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/16/98 at 1:01PM. z its not for you to judge what is a worthwhile upbringing, what is a worthwhile existence. its a very hard life if you are born in most other parts of the world, would you deny them the right to live? gemma please understand i wished you wouldnt read this i dont want to speak to you about it, i was just responding to the original post. i dont hate any of you, thank you, z - i think its very bad of you to always attack my argument by always trying to show me as a fanatic. dont make words i didnt say, like thinking you are satanic.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 1:31PM. alright.. anonymous.. you missed my point.. it was said that i shouldnt use the word "retarded" because it is offensive. well.. using "hell" the way it was used is also offensive to many christians(which i am not.) second.. i'm not the one who started the negative crap.. i merely responded to it, so dont lay it off on me. i kept this entire debate civil as best i could, until i was personally attacked. my points are being mistaken on purpose, so that they can be used to insult me. thats very pathetic.. so i'm posting this last response and i quit. i can see that arguing with people that take everything out of context, and dodge the main points with insults.. is pointless.. so.. bye. grow up people.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/16/98 at 1:35PM. right on Z.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 1:36PM. gemma.. you misunderstood.. abortion as a means of birth control doesnt mean that they used a birth control pill and still got pregnant, it means they're using abortion to terminate the pregnancy simply because they dont want the hastle of being pregnant. please read *all* of my posts.. before you respond with something like that..
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/16/98 at 1:36PM. if you are anti-choice you are ANTI-WOMAN.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 5/16/98 at 1:39PM. nobody uses abortion as a means of birth control. well, it's very rare anyway. women use it to terminate pregnancies that have occured accidentally or without consent. having an abortion is *not* a fun experience. it's expensive, and very hard to deal with emotionally as well as physically (in some cases).
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 1:46PM. no.. if the pregnancy was an accident.. (excluding rape.. etc.) and the pregnancy poses no danger to the mother.. and she still has an abortion.. *that* is abortion as a means of birth control. and being pro life isnt being antiwoman.. that is a very ignorant and shallow statement. abortion isnt always wrong.. but it isnt always right either.. because the woman's life *and* the baby's life have to be taken into consideration. i'm really going to quit now.. and once again *stop insulting people because they disagree with you!*
Reply from: xxx on 5/16/98 at 1:53PM. gabe, you rely on the argument that women use abortion as a means of birth control too much. i doubt that many, if any, people use abortion as a means of birth control. it's like the pro-choice argument 'what if a woman is raped'? abortion may be more 'right' in the case of rape, but i'm sure only a portion of abortions are rape cases. abortion is about a woman's right to control her body, whether it is her 'fault' she is pregnant or not.
Reply from: xxx on 5/16/98 at 1:54PM. gabe, i'm not insulting you here, but are you really going to quit? you've said that in practically every post.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 2:01PM. ok.. i have no will power.. yes.. it is about the woman.. but it is also about the baby. i believe the baby is a person.. born or not.. and i have no idea when the zygote becomes a human with feelings or whatever.. i guess its more accurate to say i'm against later term abortions.. like half-birth abortions.. my *best* friend's parents had sex and didnt mean to concieve him.. and they seriously thought about aborting him, but instead they went ahead and took responsibility for their actions... and i'm so glad for that, because i would never have known him otherwise. the reason i keep bringing the birth control part up is because thats the only kind of abortion i'm against.. and i was responding to a few people's comments on it, trying to clear a few things up.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 2:03PM. i'm trying to quit.. heh.. but i cant! i keep seeing posts that directly apply to what i have said.. and i feel that i have to respond. sorry! =)
Reply from: anonymous on 5/16/98 at 2:05PM. If women are ultimately responsible for deciding whether the fetus will be viable or not, why should they consider "the life of the baby"? If a woman decides that she does not want to carry the fetus anymore, unless that fetus can survive on its own, then that fetus is out of luck. Women are not under any obligation to carry a fetus to full term or bear the burden and risks involved with pregnancy, just because a bunch of guys feel bad about the loss of a potentially viable fetus. It so typical for a bunch of guys to sit back and call women selfish for making decisions that puts their lives as their first priority, regardless if the couple was negligent in using birth control will fucking. If you are so concerned about life, why don't you open up your house to orphans or street kids or something. The fact that I don't give up one of my kidneys to someone who might need it to survive is selfish, yet, there is no obligation or duty for me to do so. It's a woman's right to decide what is the best course of action for her to take during pregnancy, even if it means deciding not to carry the fetus anymore.
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 2:10PM. ok.. anon.. i'd agree with you if the baby just appeared in the woman without her doing anything.. *then* she'd have no responsiblity. *but* if the baby is there, then something had to happen.. right? and if it was her choice to have that happen.. then the consequences are hers to deal with. like if i stand under an anvil that is hanging by a thread.. and i *know* i'm doing it.. then it is *my* fault if it drops on me, and i have to deal with it. i know that was a corny analogy but i'm not that great with them..
Reply from: Gabe on 5/16/98 at 2:13PM. *and* the father should have to deal with it too.. i'm sorry i left that out. he has just as much responsiblity.
Reply from: anonymous on 5/16/98 at 2:15PM. Oh, and further more, why are pro-life people so concerned about the fetus' right to live as a human, yet when it comes to rape, it's OK to abort that fetus. Isn't this a contradicti))* [Welcome to GeoCities!]