Written by: cj on 10/30/97 at 3:46PM. i just got back from my photography 1 class. today's lecture was title "women in photography." super, right? last semester, i had a class in british lit. titled "women in literature." great. this manifests one of our country's biggest problems: our education system revolves around straight white males of european descent. there is no room in the curriculum for females or for any minorities for that matter. of course, minority/women's studies are offered which is cool, but the dilemma is that 'our' core/basis of education does not have room for women and minorities, so if you really want to learn anything else other than straight white male supremecy, you can just take these minority/women's classes and go on happily with life in a straight white male dominated society.

Replies:

Reply from: cj on 10/30/97 at 4:06PM. PART II: when i brought this argument up to my older brother (who happens to be a heterosexual, white male) who is a catholic high school english teacher working toward his masters degree, he was not very receptive of my ideology. he argued that education caters to the needs of society. since society is dominated by straight white males, 'our' core curriculum 'should' center around them, just as it now does. yes, and when i held to my argument persistantly without ignorant threats or put-downs, he ended the debate with "fuck off." he realized my point that education centers around straight white males is valid. he even agreed, but he disagreed that it should change. i actually give him a lot of credit for admitting to my claim! so many people have blown me off as being an extremist, a "fuckin' feminist (i am! ouch), among other things. i guess it is just easier to live in a corrupt society if you go through it ignorantly (especially if you claim "you are different" and still reap the benefits of white privilege, male privilege, and heterosexual privilege!!!)

Reply from: mexi boy on 10/30/97 at 4:41PM. waaa waaaa cry me a river. waaaa waaaaa who gives a fuck

Reply from: jane on 10/30/97 at 4:56PM. WHAT!!!!! The person that just replied to cj's point just proved everything she is talking about!!!! Why is it that everytime we want to bring up something to discuss that threatens somebody's perfect little world that they have to start swearing??? Swearing at a gay woman on the CHAINSAW message board! If we didn't question why thing things are the way they are there would have been no Stonewall, no Queerpunk movement, NO CHAINSAW!!!!! SO there! Three cheers for cj, you go girl!

Reply from: dave roswell on 10/30/97 at 5:05PM. i totaly agree with everything said ......but a don't remember that guy "mexi-boy" say anthing against her being gay. what he said sucks but just becoause he is a boy you say "attacking a gay female"....keep in mind i'm not defending him just pointing out how we all are prejudice in our own ways huggs&kisses dave

Reply from: jarred on 10/30/97 at 5:17PM. hello. i think the key for me is to constantly remember your points about the privileges i receive everyday. when i realize this i start to free myself of adding to the corruption. i agree with ya cj. we need REVOLUTION. real revolution, not people mindlessly thinking that punk rock is the hip music to listen to or that to be a punk means just caring about our own precious asses and what we can do to prove that nothing can hurt us and that we don't give a fuck about anything! we are the youth and we want REVOLUTION! overthrow those people and attitudes that have their clutches around the throat of america! love, jarred!

Reply from: punkrockdyke on 10/30/97 at 5:29PM. First of all, I agree with CJ 100%! I love you, CJ! I think what Jane was saying about CJ getting sworn at in the Chainsaw message thing is that although we all may have some bias', Chainsaw is pro-girl and pro-queer and this guy comes into this sacred space and gets in her face! He didn't even know she was gay necessarily, but it's bad when a gay woman gets insulted in a pro-girl, pro-queer space. Also, Jarred, I have to say you sound like the most intelligent man I've ever seen on this board, and in much of the world! I,(as well as cj, I imagine) am not prejudice toward straight males, we just want them to keep in mind that they have been given all these rights, etc. just because they are male. They never have to fight to be heard in a room of men, come out to their families, etc. So instead of saying 'I'm different! I'm sensitive, I'm not a rapist! I'm not like everyone you are talking about!' Keep in mind that you have been granted certain advantages in your life that others haven't. Less talk about how you are different, and more rock! Prove it!

Reply from: Crystal on 10/30/97 at 5:31PM. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't ya wanna feel it inside??? All grrrls should have a real man! Well, my opinion is that a bunch of 15 year old "riot grrrls" reading Teen magazine are not going to start a revolution. They are being fed shit by America's capitolism: this is what to wear, this is how to do yr hair, you should be this skinny (if yr not then start throwing up grrrl). blah, blah, blah... It's bullshit. Our youth can't think for themselves!!! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And our little boys who are brought up into ignorance!, how they suposed to free themselves. straight white male is -normal- it's what God intended. All else is different. they need to be governed by straight white males!!! Bullshit, blah, blah, blah. It makes me wanna cry. Crystal

Reply from: screw-u on 10/30/97 at 5:48PM. Sounds like the only ignorant one is U! Hate to side with your brother, but "Fuck Off!" and don't tell me that I'm ignorant. You can whine all you want, but don't insult me becuz I'm straight or becuz I'm white or male! Screw-U...

Reply from: womanHOOD on 10/30/97 at 5:57PM. This whole thing is really showing who all is on this board! I question why so many straight males are hanging out in a pro-girl, pro-queer board. Was the Stone Temple Pilot room closed? I think cj is addressing some real problems and issues that need to be discussed. This is not a compitition. Although it seems many of the STRAIGHT MALES are trying to make this one by swearing and not going about this in a mature manner. I can understand why they may disagree, but then they should present their argument in a mature way with real valad points, not throwing around words.

Reply from: gemma on 10/30/97 at 6:11PM. to me, i realize how fucked up my high school system is by the NEED to have a wimmin in... type class.. if women are treated as equals, there would be no question as to a fifty fifty men-wimmin course- everybody would have to take it, and learn it. dont get me wrong, i beleive these wimmin classes rock, because right now thats the best we can do, but i feel most of my course material (especially the required classes) are basically, a boys only club and then if WE WANT we can take a class and learn about what the wimmin did., instead of the entire school learning about people equally. blah blha blah,, am i getting across? nothing is clear in my head to-day. hmpth. anyways, i REALLY hate how every so often they stick a women in this male dominated class and go "look theres LADIES in yr ciriculum", its really a defeating feeling for me.... ok blah blha blah i think im done... sorrry im just really tired and grumpy anf flu-y and nothing is coming out right..

Reply from: *Andrea* on 10/30/97 at 7:29PM. Women constitute 52% of the population, therefore, WE'RE the majority, and we should have a strong core of women's literature/ect. taught in the schools as "normal" subject matter. Any guy that would respond in such a fashion is obviously very insecure, and dose NOT belong on this message board, because he dosen't listen to Chainsaw bands anyway, so what the hell is he doing here? I don't really like going on the chat and getting called a "fucking dyke" by some ignorant little boy. I guess it's cuz this is the place for cowards to come and gay/woman bash because they know it's a computer and we can't come and kick their ass. So all I have to say to you minority of homaphobic white males on this board is: get a fucking life.

Reply from: *Andrea* on 10/30/97 at 7:43PM. Ya' know what?? Who cares, if these stupid guys wanna be dicks to us, fuck um, they aren't worth our breath, our time, or peace of mind. We are strong women, and we don't have to put up with their shit. We're not gonna let them cramp our style, cuz we don't need 'um. Intelligent guys, yr okay, but all you assholes are blocked from my mind, goodbye.

Reply from: punkrockdyke on 10/30/97 at 7:56PM. Right on gemma & Andrea!!!!! Whew! I was getting worried all the cool people had fallen off the face of the earth leaving us with the ignorent.

Reply from: MOTORHEAD on 10/30/97 at 8:28PM. NEVER BEEN TO THIS PAGE BEFORE. I HAVE TO SAY THOUGH, REAL PUNK. YEAH RIGHT. BLEEDING HEARTS. YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE BIG BAD WERLD DON'T YA? WWAAAAAWAAAAA SOB W-WW-WAAAAAAAAAA SOB

Reply from: Tracey on 10/30/97 at 8:32PM. okay, #1:i don't see the need to attack cj... she's stating a very valid point... #2:why do straight white males(this is only going towards the two that attacked cj)feel so threatened by what she's saying... nobody was being attacked by what cj was saying... she was stating a valid point... she was asking for change, not for the heads of all straight white males... in any case, if the reasons why they don't change the curriculm are because of the fact that our society is dominated by straight white males then we should look at the fact that our society needs to change... i'm not saying, and i don't think anyone else was either, that our society should be dominated by gay minority females, but that we need to change our society, we've needed to change our society, to where everyone, straight, gay, bisexual, white, and all other ethnic groups are on an equal playing field... i mean it's pretty obvious that there needs to be a drastic change, look around you, open up your sleepy little eyes to the world, and stop this tunnel vision... our society isn't perfect, it's not even that good... women in literature, minorities in literature, all of it should be in the curriculm, because until we open the minds of the students and change their narrow minded thinking process we're going to continue on this downward slope, brainwashed into thinking that it's alright that things are being run the way they are.... that's it... i'm not attacking anyone... i'm not using profane language... there... :)

Reply from: *Andrea* on 10/30/97 at 8:32PM. Hummmmm...

Reply from: *Andrea* on 10/30/97 at 8:34PM. You go Tracey!!** BIG *HUGS* girlfriend!

Reply from: kipper on 10/30/97 at 9:19PM. so what exactly are we all doing to change the minds of the ignorant who really just won't listen? isn't it what they are taught? that ignorant boy, who just happens to be heterosexual, just happens to be christian, and oh my! just happens to be white is learning this isn't he? don't you think that maybe something has to be done right there where that boy first learns that the solution to all his problems is a quick "fuck you your ugly" or "shut up ya fucken' dyke."? insults/personal attacks/ have never done anything but make people defensive. don't you understand that mexi boy? does anyone here know for fact that mexi boy is not in acutality a bisexual punjabi/white girl that gets picked on for not being white enough, or not being punjabi enough, so she's not accepted, and being bisexual and not accepted by a large part of the heterosexual comunity, and not accepted by the homosexual comunity, struggling, because her school system is teaching her to be depentant and she won't listen, and she's just really frustrated and venting all of her anger out here in this destructive sorta way? hmmmm, maybe not. hey! it could be anyone! anyways talking about the negative points of others and the ignorance of others is good(as long as we are admiting our own negative points and ignorance), but somewhere in there we've gotta look at some solutions, some way of eliminating, or cutting down on them.... um..like looking at where that boy learned "fuck you, you ugly" and eliminating it... does anyone see the slightest bit of where i'm coming from?

Reply from: Watchmaker on 10/30/97 at 9:33PM. Um.. hello, why SHOULDNT straight white males be allowed to hang out on this board? If the woman's movement is for equality, then if you say that str8 white males cant be here, then youre being hypocritical. I am white and I am male, although I'm queer, and I dont feel threatened here at all, because I totally support the woman's movement, and the queercore movement as well. Quit being hypocrites. It's like that old story: There's a fish swimming (seemingly) unobstructed amongst kelp and plankton. Zoom out for the Long View and here's the kicker: It's a goldfish bowl. That's the way everyone is reacting to this message. So what if people and straight, white and male? Not all of them are horrible idiots. BE OPEN MINDED!

Reply from: snaily on 10/30/97 at 9:56PM. just wanted to say hurray for Tracey and Watchmaker *kisses* for both .. you guys rock guy

Reply from: Andrew on 10/30/97 at 10:57PM. I agree with the other Andrew. Why can't straight white males hang out here? Not all of us are close-minded. And even those who like to think they are open minded, my self included, still could learn alot. What better place is there to expand your mind about issues like these? I hang out here because I enjoy the music, and the nice people I've met here. It doesn't matter to me if those people are women/gay/methodist /Seventh-Day Adventist/Irish/Panamanian/Left-Handed or whatever... I hope others here could extend to me the same tolerance...

Reply from: yo on 10/30/97 at 11:10PM. Nobody said straight white men can't hang out here! Getting defensive?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/30/97 at 11:41PM. getting back to cj's original point... i can only speak about the experiences ive had directly with teachers, but i it seems to me that the make-up of a circulum can be made all inclusive (girls, boys, of all races) by teachers who actually give a fuck. unfortunatly rad teachers or in the minority, and thus we (as students) have to deal with sexist coments, racial remarks, and male/striaght/white dominated circulum daily. how do we solve the problem? i dont really know. by offering students "type spicific" classes, only those with intrest will gain the knowledge that should be had by all. that doesnt mean that such classes are without purpose, since even the most expand manditory ciriculum can be truncated by a sexcist/racist teacher (thus requiring the intrested student to take a type spesific class). i guess the real problem is that in a society dominated by a white homophobic man, the teaching population is bound to be largly made up of similar dumd asses. what im saying is that school's limited ciriculum is just a symptom of the larger inadiquacies in our society. but on the otherhand, it only take one to start a revolution. xoxox

Reply from: womanHOOD on 10/31/97 at 0:09AM. This is the place for these kinds of debates! AS long as it is done in a healthy way!

Reply from: *Andrea* on 10/31/97 at 4:21PM. Gosh, Whatchmaker, Andrew, nobody meant that white men couldn't come here, we are talking about straight, white, HOMOPHOBIC, asshole men. We like you, don't worry.*

Reply from: AJAX on 10/31/97 at 4:51PM. I think this whole thing is stupid. Are there courses in white, straight, male literature? I have yet to see one. Are their courses in American Literature? Absolutely. My point is this: America is and always will be a melting pot of diverse ideas and people. Part of this melting pot is and always will be white, straight men, gay women, gay men, black straight men, etc. I don't think there needs to be any kind of revolution, but I do believe there should always be revolutionary ideas. I believe the govt. is dominated by white, straight males, but change comes slowly. Think about when the women's movement started are when it started being OK to be gay. Things are changing, but not over night. I'm starting to get off subject...American Lit should cover americans, if in the past that has been white, straight men, so be it. You can't change history, you can only learn from it. There is nothing wrong with having courses aimed at specific ethnic or cultural groups, but those groups should be careful not over-segregate themselves. I'm out of time, write more later.

Reply from: AJAX on 10/31/97 at 4:55PM. Andrew, yer the man.

Reply from: stargrl on 10/31/97 at 5:12PM. i have to say, that, well.....AJAX, YOURE the man....and andrew too

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/31/97 at 8:06PM. just a though: the "womans movement" was not a product of the 1970's, it began along time ago. even way befor the womans suffrage (sp?) movment of yesteryear. also, i think its a stretch to say that being gay in america is "okay." last i checked, homosexuals still cant marry, still are treated as inferior, and still feel the need to hide their sexuality from parents/peers/employers. look, the fact is that history classes around the contry focus on american/european male events, and literture class mainly cover male writers. does that mean there are few if any female historical figures/writers? hardly, such figures are only ignored because of the stronghold that the straight male idealogy has on american society.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/31/97 at 11:39PM. yeah, i'm with you anonymous. why is everyone getting so damn defensive?!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/1/97 at 1:55AM. yeah... i don't think anyone was attacking white males, they were just stating a point, why is everyone getting so defensive?

Reply from: stargrl on 11/1/97 at 2:33AM. hey, i see a lot of misunderstandings here.....i dont think that anyone was attacking white males, and i agree with the first anonymous after AJAX, but i dont understand, you have a strong opinion, why do you hide behind the word anonymous? also, AJAX wasnt saying that its okay to be gay in america, he said its "starting" to be okay....i know that AJAX is one of the most enlightened straight white males that i "know" he is a very wonderful and understanding person...hmmmm, sounds like im trying to sell him....just defending his point as a bi white female. i dont really think taht anyone is getting defensive, maybe a little by misunderstanding, but i think most are just expressing their opinions, nothing wrong with that....but thats just what i think...

Reply from: Tracey on 11/1/97 at 3:06AM. stargrrl,you go with yer bad self!!!hehe, yer so cool... :) i'm being serious, btw...

Reply from: mexi boy on 11/1/97 at 10:51PM. IM A BOY

Reply from: punkrockdyke on 11/1/97 at 11:28PM. Mexi Boy! I see you have returned! Thank you for not insulting anyone this time!

Reply from: stargrl on 11/2/97 at 3:15AM. ummmm, i didnt mean that AJAX is a bi white female, i meant i was trying to defend his point, him being a straight white male, me being a bi white female....k?

Reply from: missy on 11/2/97 at 10:32AM. my school offers a "women in science" class. what's really warped is that it's offered as a diversity course (clumped together with black writers, native american cultures...etc) so by taking this class, would i be buying into the idea that women are so "different" that we need to totally seperate them from everything the boys did at the time... or would it be a step in the positive direction by supporting women scientists(writers/whatever...). if enough people don't take this class, they'll drop it from the curriculum, and we're back to square one...that one day of lecture on women in science, or women's studies week...just a thought...

Reply from: tami on 11/2/97 at 11:08AM. what is going on with everyone these days????? i mean first there someone starts hacking the damn message board, then there are are pointless insults being thrown everywhere? it's starting to look like nothings change. and that pisses me off big time, this page wasnt created for boys to come on here and mag there little negative remarks to girls to impress there little friends. obviously theyve got nothing better to do with there time, and WE need to do something about it like start a pro-girl internet alliance group. so what do ya say? its about time we did something about this. instead of continuing to argue with these boys. xoxo tami

Reply from: yes on 11/3/97 at 11:30AM. I agree with tami

Reply from: womanHOOD on 11/3/97 at 1:58PM. That makes sense. I mean, isn't that why many of us come here? Because we feel we actually have something in common with everyone else instead of having to constantly prove ourselves like in the rest of the world?

Reply from: stargrl on 11/3/97 at 4:18PM. ummm, how about a pro-openminded people internet alliance....i can think of a lot of boys that are "pro-girl" that would be interested in something like that....i dont think its good to exclude....doesnt sound like progress to me....but again, thats just my opinion...anyone is free to disagree.....or rhyme like me...the geek!

Reply from: fish on 11/3/97 at 4:44PM. straight white males: nothing against you all, but shut-up and listen. quit trying to dominate. i don't think this is an argument of whether or not you can hang out here. if you want to learn about issues here, then why try to always make sure that your points and attitudes are always made clear and known to everyone. this is a place for bi/homosexual women to communicate. learn. don't dominate.

Reply from: jefff on 11/3/97 at 5:09PM. feminism: its not just for yr girlfriend :) (oh, and btw i was the anyon. long poster both times..)

Reply from: cj on 11/3/97 at 5:16PM. hello all. it looks like a lot of people took an interest in my argument. i also see that some people strayed from what i was arguing, but i guess that's okay. i think that what AJAX wrote was directly saying the opposite of what i was saying (and what's with the "your the MAN" comments?!?! - you're THE man- you've got the biggest penis!) anyway, be sure to read AN ANONYMOUS VIEWER's 2nd entry. What VIEWER wrote rocks. There has been a stronghold on american society by straight white males since eroupeans robbed this land from native americans. however, this doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't exist. i guess what i am trying to get across is that Anna Atkins' work with light sensitive emulsion was overlooked although her work was done at the same time that Nicephore Niepce's, Dagerre's, and Telbet's work was being done. no one would credit a woman with such important work. no one would pay any respect or attention to her. but now in photography we know that she was one of the most important pioneers. it is STILL NOT in the curriculum to include this while teaching photography to college students.

Reply from: punkrockdyke on 11/3/97 at 5:25PM. Yeah, I think what cj's saying is that she's frustrated that if her professor hadn't decided on her own to mention this woman, that the class would never have been exposed to her amazing work! When it is at least as great, if not better then the men that are covered in the course.

Reply from: Tasty on 11/3/97 at 6:00PM. cj's original point is so clearly true, it's just no use arguing against it. If you want to lend some historical perspective to this whole discussion, you need to go back way further than the start of American society. All this white male domination started a really long time ago, back when men revolted against the domination of society by women!! It was about the time a couple of books were written, on which a huge part of the world culture is now based: the old testament, and the Koran. All the pro-man rhetoric in there is a reaction against the goddess religions, and the societies which practiced them. The symbols of the serpent and the tree of the knowledge of good an evil were symbols of the goddess, and were used by the boy priests (Levites and such) in these new stories about the wickedness of women, to undermine the goddess religion. Before then, for most of pre history, men and women worshiped the goddess as their major deity, and the priestesses were the spiritual, intellectual, and family leaders. And yeah, I think you could safely say that men were often oppressed (if you count ritual molestation and sacrifice as oppression). The point is, this boy tactic of re-writing history and manipulating the telling of events and the education of people is as old as dirt. It wasn't invented in American universities. If I speak from my heart, I will say that I would rather return to the bad old days of women domination of society, Gynarchy. But that's just 6000 built up years of women anger and frustration talking. The real enemy is the _human_ tendency to want to dominate others, and it is a much bigger battle than just taking power back and forth and back again. The only acceptable solution is a society built on _true_ equality, if that's at all possible. Here's the good news: that's what the grrl/boi revolution is all about. Keep up the good work, soldiers.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/3/97 at 6:37PM. okay, i agree with you about white male dominance in the curriculum but this whole thread leaves me with one question: what are all of you doing about this??? just wondering...

Reply from: ednie on 11/3/97 at 8:02PM. To respond to the last poster's question, it seems to me that what's going on here is an attempt to develop a language and a conversational space to discuss issues of parity in the curriculum, but also more broadly in our culture. This is absolutely important for revolution (i.e., remember the poster who mentioned "revolutionary ideas"), but it is only a beginning--it has to be the breeding ground for action, and not just an end in itself. Like mizzery sings in the Free to Fight cd- education is only the start. THis conversation is about education (the system in this country but also the conversation itself). As for the "straight white men" who have felt compelled to insert their rather flimsy oppositions--we live in a society that is being strangled by knee-jerk conservativism and these posters evidently reflect this inability to engage with others with integrity. You can choose to respond, or treat them as they deserve--don't respond. Any "straight white man" who visits this message board and/or listens to conversations about feminism, anti-racism, heterosexism/homophobia, and who is incapable of LISTENING before shooting off their mouths defensively is missing the point. This goes for all the women on this board, too. Straight white men have the same tendency as white people in general when it comes to disscussions of race, and that includes women and other queers too. Finally (although this is only because this message is getting long and it's late), I want to remind the poster who asked about white male literature classes, etc.--dude, all the classes offered in schools (grade, high school, universities, whatever), unless they include the designator "women," "people of color," "African American (or other specific racial/ethnic group), "gay and lesbian," is ALWAYS ALREADY ABOUT STRAIGHT WHITE MEN!! I am utterly offended when ANYONE poses that rhetorical question. And I hope everyone else on this board is as well. Didn' you HEAR what cj was saying? DOn't you realize that the creation of Women's Studies, Black Studies, Ethnic Studies, and Lesbian and Gay Studies (most folks are still afraid of "queer") are precisely a respond to the historical and cultural fact that our educational systems have been about constructing the idea and perception that this culture is about, by and consists of nothing but straight white men (and their less significant wives)? I cannont BELIEVE that in 1997 this is still an issue. It just goes to show you how ENTRENCHED heteronormativity, patriarchy, and white privilege are in this country. I'm utterly disgusted. I hope I'm am not coming off too viciously, but please understand that I had to spend an hour and a half in a meeting with the advisory board of the women's studies program at my school this afternoon and they had the audacity to say that women's studies is exclusively about women--and then to insist that I was "utopian" because I criticized them because the only people they think about when they think about women are WHITE (and I wouldn't doubt that if I had pushed it those women would also be straight)!!! Let's not forget that straight white men are only PART of the problem!

Reply from: Andrew on 11/3/97 at 9:17PM. I stopped following this post for a while and then got back to it... I hope I wasn't percieved as one of the "straight white men who have felt compelled to insert their rather flimsy oppositions" in this post. That wasn't my intention. But somebody did ask the question of why did straight white male hang out here, and I gave my reasons. So I moved the thread off topic... Sorry... but I never made any comments on straight white male domination, so I hope no harsh feelings are aimed in my direction.

Reply from: Jefff on 11/3/97 at 9:20PM. cj, thanks for the complament :) but anyway... i am sooo fucking mad right now. i just realized that my social anthro teacher (who deals out a daily variaty of sexist comments) SKIPED our textbooks section on gender and sex. jesus H! you dont even know how upset i am... umm i dont have time to resopond in depth to all the new msg right now, but i will later.

Reply from: ZeePp on 11/4/97 at 6:19AM. oh wow. ednie, you always amaze me. i totally dig what yer saying n' i wish i had more time to respond to this, but it's like 8am n' i'm in a super super rush...all i have time to say now is RIGHT ON! i totally dig what yer saying...acknowledging n' realizing that this DOES exist is SO important...some of us may not have even thought about it before...it's a start. an important one. and hopefully we'll also take this topic outside o' the message board n' talk about it with others...i know i will [and do]...errr, i'm tired...zzzzzz...hope that made some sense...luv lisa

Reply from: Tasty on 11/4/97 at 8:05AM. The viewer's question, what are we all _doing_ about it, is a perfectly valid question and nothing to get mad about. I know since I have been listening here that we are all doing _lots_ of things about it, and we should stand up and be proud. I'm involved in a lot of local politics, of a sort that challenge the very legs our society stands on, and is working hard to rebuild our neighborhoods and towns into something good and useful and productive. I'm working on a campaign to clean up the election process and make running for office possible for those who don't have access to a lot of money (that is, everyone but str8 white men), so politicians can actually serve the public interest, maybe for the first time in this country's history. I'm working on a pirate community radio station, in the middle of a fight right now to liberate the airwaves from corporate (read: str8 white man) domination. And I do a radio show that fires up young women to fight the good fight. I've had time to do that stuff cuz I'm 23 and have had lots of experience. Some of the grrls here are so young, and they amaze me with what they've done so far. Playing in a band is revolutionary, and writing a zine is revolutionary. Hell, nowadays, if you communicate any real thoughts, that's revolution. And bonding with other grrls is revolutionary. None of us would be 'talking' right now if it weren't for Donna and Jody, who are true grrl soldiers. That's what we're doing about it. Any more questions?

Reply from: adam on 11/4/97 at 8:26AM. i don't think straight white men are necessarily the ones in power. there are a lot of gay white men in power too, who are complete assholes. the rich are the ones everyone should be against, it isn't black versus white, it's rich versus poor. getting everyone arguing over little differences like sexuality, color, gender, etc, keeps everyone from seeing the real enemy. and one very important thing to remember if you are in a revolution is STAY AWAY FROM ILLEGAL DRUGS!!!! in the words of jello, if you are an artist type with something dangerous to say, drugs are a cops best friend.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/4/97 at 8:27AM. thank you tasty, i didnt mean to offend anyone by that question, i think this thread is wonderful....it has opened up a lot of thought for me....it is so easy to pretend that its okay this way, just because its been this way for so long....i want to start doing something about it, and i think what youre doing is excellent tasty...

Reply from: Tasty on 11/4/97 at 8:43AM. Adam, yr right, the rich are the enemy. But think for half a second about who is rich and who is not. That's not to say there aren't rich queers. The issue is, who owns the _wealth_ in an economy? The stuff you use to make more money, like factories and fleets of trucks and great big fat inheritances and banks and TV stations? aka the means of production? It's white people. So yes it is rich vs. poor, and therefore it's necessarily white vs. black. You cannot ignore color. It's the job of white people to reject the priveleges that have been handed down to them, and to work for not just an equal society, but a _just_ society. And by the way, drugs are fun.

Reply from: eyeball on 11/4/97 at 8:54AM. Drugs are fun? Do I got some stories for you my little buttercup. Nothing like playing into the hands of the MAN.

Reply from: eyeball on 11/4/97 at 8:57AM. For all you sensative boys out there that wasn't a dig on men... i just mean The Man, Whitey The Man, aka those in power that like to see people like and expect to see people like us fail. That's all.

Reply from: fish on 11/4/97 at 9:39AM. Why are the rich usually white???

Reply from: eyeball's little buttercup on 11/4/97 at 10:23AM. The rich are usually white (let's talk America here) because being rich is not about having a job that pays you a lot of money, it's about what you OWN, like I said above, and what you own is usually handed down to you through an inheritance of some kind. Since the beginning of this country, white men have been TAKING from everyone else, taking the land of the natives, taking the unpaid labor of women, and taking the whole PERSON of Africans. Historically, that was only yesterday!! White men gobbled up all the resources, and passed them down to their sons (and more recently, their daughters). That is why rich people are usually white. And that's why we have not overcome racism, even though people of color can now get good jobs and make money. I'm amazed that this needs explaining. p.s. I'm not much of a failure so far... R

Reply from: Tracey on 11/4/97 at 11:02AM. the other reason most of the, american, rich are white is because most are in their early forties, fifties, whatever... but when they were starting out their lives they were given so many more oppurtunities than people of color... i mean that class system is starting to change, very slowly, but i do have to say this... a friend of mine... she's from vietnam, her parents came over from vietnam as boat people... BOTH her parents came here with nothing... when i say the clothes on their backs i mean it... but BOTH her parents worked at various jobs and both her parents put themselves through school... now both her parents are very well to do doctors... i just thought that THAT is pretty inspirational... but it's like this still, if you're a person of color you have to work that much harder to get ahead... and sure a lot of people are yellin' that now it's just as hard for white males to get ahead, well first of all it's not "just as hard" it may be "more difficult" than it used to be, but still, white males get a lot of breaks... secondly... i never said anything about guys not coming on to chainsaw... so now i will... :P i think, and this goes for everyone so guys yer not all that special to me, if you come here have certain level of respect for others and their opinions... i think most of the guys do... andrew, guy, spike, daniel... etc... so there i'm not against any of y'all... 'cept if yer a homophobe who has the i.q. of a fudgecicle...

Reply from: spike on 11/4/97 at 11:17AM. Tracey: I'm a girl, but thats okay. I was just telling a bit of personal experience

Reply from: punkrockdyke on 11/4/97 at 1:03PM. Straight white men are the ones that don't want us to use drugs! (unless they can get us in bed more easily that way). That's enough reason to use them right there! LEGALIZE POT! IT"S WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT!

Reply from: fish on 11/4/97 at 2:07PM. In the time that I've been visitin' this page, there's never been so many cool responses to a post! I love you all (well, I don't really care for mexi boy and MOTORHEAD, but everyone else kicks butt. as for you two, ugh)! Love, fishy

Reply from: fish on 11/4/97 at 2:10PM. P.S. I don't think "screw-u" is very nice either. Sorry, didn't want to leave you out! Once again, Love, fishy.

Reply from: jefff on 11/4/97 at 10:33PM. eek, mi post got alll messed up. anyway, a quick tid bit. i decided to confront mi professor as to why he skipped the section on gender and sex in mi anthro class (this is basically the only section he skipped in our textbook). he said that the existance of a female spicific class alowed him to cut out the section because the topics were covered in that class. mi heart sunk when i heard that, but now i wonder if that is really the truth. wether the female spicific class caused the sections to be cut, or wether that is just an excuse. and i wonder wether a "day of feminine education" that reaches a larger group, is better then a semester long feminist course that only reaches only a intrested few. any thoughts?

Reply from: jeffff on 11/4/97 at 10:41AM. adam: i think yr missing the point. the debate over the biase in higher education should not be turned into an us vrs them argument, just like femisism is not (in mi humble opinion) about girls *agianst* boys. the true culprate of this biase is the deep rooted opressive forces in our society (which are eviedent, obviously, in ALL sectors of human life not just education). although it is easy to sit on this msg board and demonize the "white man" or the "rich man" very little is going to be ocomplished in the end. how then do we fight agianst such inequality (as the poster above asked)? well, THIS dicussion is a start. but in a way is is almost in vian. ppl who come onto the chainsaw web page are more then likly the ones who have already detected gender inequalities. the very existance of those detections is a positive sign tho (i was in this one class where the professor said that the very elavation of ones consiousness to include a feminist prospective *should* be viewed as REVOLUTIONARY). the existance of gender and race spicific class in schools across the country is another hopful "advancment." i think somone said it already, but it i would *think* that high attendance in such classes would result in an overall broading of the ciriculum to include those topics left out in or current system. . . . . but that only aleaviates the problems facing students. how about ALL the other biases that exist in our society? i think a gender war or class war is a step in the wrong direction. instead we (we meaning society at large) need to think revolutionary thoughts and do revolutionary things and consentrate on elavating our consousness EVERY SINGLE DAY. thats all any of us can hope to do. i guess its just "lead through example." xoxox jeff

Reply from: Tracey on 11/4/97 at 10:55PM. spike!!!!! i'm sorry!!! i feel all stupid now... *bighugs* i thought... um... nevermind... i'm just confused, whats new about that, i'm soooooo sorry!!! this is where i let everyone know how very sorry i am, i'm sorry... i feel really stupid... sorry... i'm gonna go now... i'm sorry...

Reply from: AJAX on 11/4/97 at 10:56PM. to CJ, if you scroll up for about 2min from here (this has become a very popular message) you will see what this is regarding. "Your the man" in this instance, simply meanS "I like what you said, or I agree with you". Nothing more. Just a saying. Please don't be offended. I assumed that ANDREW was a man so I referred to him as such. If it was ANDREA, I would have said, "Your the woman!", but not as any kind of statement of how large her ovaries are. I don't think anyone here knows anything about my penis, nor would they care to. On another note, I have a lot of respect for you. You and I have been able to carry on a serious, non-threatening debate without resorting to name calling or gender bashing. Hopefully, some of the boys and girls here can learn to play just as nice. By the way, it is obvious to me that you are more educated on this matter than I, giving you a valid arguement while I only have an opinion. So I will say no more on the matter until further educated. Peaches and Cream, AJAX

Reply from: spygrl on 11/5/97 at 2:53AM. i have not been to school in quite a while but i do know what it is like in the world that i currently reside in. up north it may be different but down south there is still racism and much predudice brooding. although, the problem is not with the white hetero community it is within the sensetivity on the minorities. down here you see many more minorities bashing whites. i get called a "cracker" and get asked if i have any "whites" when i go down the street to get gas. you all are only seeing a one sided story and it's good to be fired up about it, but when you look at the big picture, people in the the minority world are just as mean and as segregating. with the issue of school text learning i thinkajax does have a point. i think it is good to show students how fucked society was in the past. how books had to be focused on one group or another. maybe it's time to petition your schools to see if they can make a text that encompasses a part of everyone's history. or maybe.......everyone's history is to BIG to put into one book....hmmmmmm....i wonder.

Reply from: boooo on 11/5/97 at 9:49AM. I have noo idea what the hell happened to what I wrote further up but I'll write it again. I have read many history books and school books on our government and they have all said basicly the same thing. that even our govenment is supposed to try its best to "represent the majority" and pay attention to this part--"WITHOUT EXCLUDING MINORITY" just throw that in yr brother's face.

Reply from: Tracey on 11/5/97 at 3:15PM. spygrrl, first of all, i am a minority, i'm korean/something else i think, but you are right... minorities can be just as mean... i've had hispanics, a whole bleacher of kids, make fun of me 'cause of my ethnicity, they all sat there doin' somethin' strange with their eyes and calling me names... believe me i've gotten it from all sides... even from other asians... i got thrown out of a store in china town because i am not chinese... tho that seems to be the only asian ethnicity that exists in many peoples minds... and told that i not only had to leave but that i couldn't buy anything either... but at the same time... society has been dominated by white european men... and that needs to change, in this statement i'm not saying that minorities can't be rascist or bigots... 'cause they can and are at times... i mean look at asian cultures... every single one of them believes in purity of their race... intermarriage between their cultures is still looked down upon, partly 'cause of their own fucked up beliefs and also because of their past histories with each other... like japan and korea... the japanese had these "pleasure" get aways for their soldiers during WWII, the women who were there to "please" the japanese soldiers were mostly korean women, many of whom were kidnapped or manipulated into not only slave labour but also free prostitution, they were raped, mutilated, sometimes beaten to death... but that's not just all... the japanese raided korea... they destroyed temples, giant sacred bells used during religious rituals that were hundreds of years old, they really tried to destroy much of the culture... and then the japanese americans in turn were subjected to concentration camp like treatment at the hands of the american government... did you know that? part of the reason you may not is because they don't teach history like that... they teach mostly the white european male history... and if they mention anything about it, they just mention it... that's what i'm talking about... not that you asked or anything... tracey :)

Reply from: Tracey on 11/5/97 at 3:19PM. spygrl, soorrry... i wasn't going off on you... i reread my post and realized i sound kinda pissy, and i'm not... i actually started to write you something and then it turned into something else... ooopss, soorryy... i just wanted to you to know i'm not as hostile as that sounds... geez... nevermind... i'm sorry... i feel like a dork... sorry... tracey

Reply from: spygrl on 11/5/97 at 7:40PM. hey tracey you didn't sound pissy. actually i do know a lot about history. when i did go to school i studied everything. and now that i am in the army history and current events are a must. you raise a valid point, but in the same sense isn't that why schools have brought in so many different classes? so any history is readily available? like i said earlier i am not a school expert these days and the common history book and the current society is run by WASPS but change comes very slowly. look at women in the army for example. only last year female medics were allowed on the front line in simulation only. myself and my tank of females changed that by fluke of chance because all of our other vehicles broke down. if a problem hadn't occured the "no females" rule wouldn't have changed. now the first seargents are crazy about having women with their team because we work harder and have better patient treatment skills. anyway, even with that in our favor the men on the tanks still throw rocks at our track and do stupid shit like come to us for ingrown toenails, or give us the wrong grid coordinates about 2 or 3 kilometers off so we get lost. they aren't accepting the change as easily. when they start to notice the battles we are winning out there because we are saving more patients lives maybe then it will change. oh what a tangent. that's all, just an example.

Reply from: 5:17 on 11/5/97 at 9:18PM. Okay first off I am a straight white male. and the reason I come to places like this, is because I love them! I have been constantly dissappointed in things like history, literature, art etc. because History has always been written by the "winners." Unfortunately, seldomly is that any one other than, the "white male" (or the culture set in place by them). When I finally became exposed to people who presented an alternate history (from any, not nessesarily a feminist or queer perspective), It was like a whole part of what I grew up thinking was true, was brought down. Stories of femicide, genocide, etc. were totally new to me. They were always "convieniently" left out of my textbooks, or from "the white male" perspective. And, it's things like this which have opened my eyes a bit. I'm glad CJ started this post, because this is the kind of forum that is missing in the world, and I'm glad Chainsaw can provide it. I guess I'm saying thanks.

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