Written by: ...never mind. on 12/10/98 at 1:35PM.

i'm sick of it. i want to be pro-fat more than anything on earth. i *am* ...on other people, that is. i want to like my body. i can't possibly imagine how anyone else could like my body. i'm sick of looking down and being grossed out. i don't want to look in the mirror and hate that my cheeks are too puffy, or my gut is hanging over the top of my pants.

i have a double standard. i am pro fat. fat power. fat liberation. all of that.. but just not for myself. i can't deal with this anymore.. and i don't know what to do. FUCK.

Replies:

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 1:45PM. I know how you feel...I hold the belief that fat people are the most persecuted kind of people in our country. More than anyone, racial minorities, women, gays, single mothers, Jewish people, people with AIDS. More than anyone in our country, fat people are discriminated against. In a study kids were shown pictures of different kids, all shapes, sizes, colors, dispositions, and were asked who they would least like to play with. The hugely overwhelming majority chose the fat kid as the one they didn't want to play with. Not even the menacing bully kid came close to the fat kid's votes of rejection. Freedom for all body types now!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 1:45PM. go on a diet

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 1:46PM. i know what you mean...exactly. people's weight isn't an issue for me unless it's my own. i think it's so fucking rad when people can be so liberated about the issue. and i am....on *other* people, like you said. on me, i hate it. i find myself not eating for days, and feeling like no one could ever find a body like mine attractive. i don't tell people this, though. i just pretend like i'm okay with this issue. i can't believe i am actually giving in to society's fucked up standard of beauty. i shouldn't feel ugly because i'm fatter than i used to be. i don't believe that thin is the only way to be beautiful. yet, here i am, striving for this image. when people tell me i'm thin, i don't say anything, because i know i'm not and it's so taboo because i just don't want people to know i care. i don't care...i really don't want to care, but i think that other people want me to.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 1:49PM. Hey, you can't really say "we're the most persecuted", cuz it doesn't work that way. Downplaying the discrimination other people face in no way helps your struggle. All those groups get fucked with, you can't compare them like that, it isn't a contest. (sorry, that just bugged me, continue with the post)

Reply from: warm fuzzy evil on 12/10/98 at 1:50PM. there's a really interesting summary of a study on low-protein diets and weight loss here

Reply from: original poster on 12/10/98 at 1:51PM. thank you all for responding. i'm glad people can relate to this. i have other fat friends, and i think they are all beautiful. i think it's really awesome when someone who's fat can be really positive about their bodies - hell, *i'm* positive about their bodies.. but i can't fucking stop thinking about how i'm disgusting.

i guess i kind of don't care what other people think when they see my body. it's what *i* see. i see my stretch marks and my cellulite and my gut and i know i don't want it to look like that. but WHY? it's obviously because of what society accepts as being "pretty." i hate that. i hate that i conform to that. i'm so angry.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 1:52PM. Well, I'll admit that no matter how hard I try, I am fatophobic. It's just that it seems like whenever I hang out with a really fat person (no, I dont mean just overweight, i mean really really fat), they have obnoxious mannerisms- really heavy, loud, congested breathing, constantly shifting their bulk, stinkiness, bad hair, bad skin, whatever. It just makes me not want to be around them.

Reply from: sucky on 12/10/98 at 2:00PM. to the fatphobic person: you realize that you're generalizing there, well i hope you do. i have several "FAT" friends. yep one of them has got a problem with shifting her weight around a lot and her hair is always dirty (althought i don't realize how this connects to one's fatness or thinness) and she's got the heavy breathing. but she is one out of 6. stop generalizing. poo.

i'm overweight but don't consider myself fat. (shitheads at school call me fat though). i really like my body. there are still occasional days. but most days i love my belly and ass and bigger thighs. *shrug* it's a hard thing to be... a year ago i wasn't so positive about my body. i am now and it's awesome. one day there will be none of those occasional days. i'm sure. keep on trucking you have it within yrself to accept yrself how you are. we all do.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 2:00PM. you're ignorant last anon.

Reply from: original poster on 12/10/98 at 2:03PM. what does greasy hair and heavy breathing have to do with being fat? i'll kill you.

Reply from: josh on 12/10/98 at 2:08PM. Well, I'll admit that no matter how hard I try, I am fatophobic. It's just that it seems like whenever I hang out with a really fat person (no, I dont mean just overweight, i mean really really fat), they have obnoxious mannerisms- really heavy, loud, congested breathing, constantly shifting their bulk, stinkiness, bad hair, bad skin, whatever. It just makes me not want to be around them.

if i ever figure out who you are, i'm going to remove your fingernails with a belt sander. that's just how much i like you.

Reply from: josh on 12/10/98 at 2:08PM. btw, i've got good hair. and i smell nice. and i'll fuck you up.

Reply from: katia on 12/10/98 at 2:19PM. hey original poster - you are so not alone. (shameless self-promotion: i wrote about this very subject for the newest issue of my zine. but anyway.)

i wish i could say something empowering, but i can't think of anything.

Reply from: penny on 12/10/98 at 2:30PM. i think the term "overweight" is bullshit, I think it was Nomy Lamm who said that "overweight" implies that there is one correct weight to be, and anything different to that is wrong, hence "OVERweight" and "UNDERweight" (which I often get called) but it's like "hello, i'm functioning as a human being, this is MY correct weight so you can stick your unders and overs up your ass".

Reply from: rats on 12/10/98 at 2:30PM. i have a little story for you... i saw this beautiful girl on campus one day and complimented her on the skirt she was wearing. it was a very pretty skirt but she wore it well and that made it even prettier. then on my birthday i got a semi anonomous gift, it was a book mark of the kiss by klemt. the person that left it said that it was a tradition at her school to give bookmarks as gifts. well, i left her a small present on her door as a way of saying thank you. she then left my roommate and me presents. so, this carried on for a while and then we got a little note about meeting each other (the entire time of exchanging gifts we thought she knew who we were and she thought we knew who she was). so, i knocked on her door one day to introduce myself and her roommate was there. she told me that the "mystery person" should be on her way back from class at any minute. while i was in her room, i saw the skirt.. so, i knew who she was by then. i saw her out my window and we(my roommate and i) decided to wait at the top of the stairs for her. we both had gifts for her, so we sat infront of the door to the stairs and taped the gifts to our foreheads and put her name clearly on the outside. we thought that if it wasn't her, we didn't mind a stranger thinking we were a little "off". well, it was the skirt girl. (you might be wondering what the hell this story has to do with the post but i'm getting to it i promise) well, we got to know each other and became the best of friends. the way it relates to the post is that she is by society's standards "fat." but has to be the most beautiful person i know. her inner and outer beauties are equal, and she has the most contageous laugh i have ever heard. anon on habits- i think the reason "fat" people's habits disturb you is probably because you make yourself constantly aware of them. next time you are in a group of people (of varying weights) make note of how many of the habits that bug you are present in everyone. they act the same(depending on personalities). and as to "dirty hair," uh, i'll just say that i want to die and come back as "mystery girl"'s hair. it is gorgeous..

Reply from: penny on 12/10/98 at 2:34PM. oh yeah, my boyfriend (who is fat) is thinking of making some t shirts that say "Fat People Look Great" and "I'm Fat and I'm All That", to empower the use of the word fat, and also cause like he feels self-conscious wearing t shirts cause they show that he's fat but he reckons that with wearing a shirt that proclaims that he's fat, other people can't insult him by saying "god you're fat" or something cause he'd be like "well duh, that's why I'm wearing this shirt, can't you read?" or something. Oh and the "I'm Fat and I'm All That" t shirt came from a Ricki Lake topic, "Honey, I May Be Fat But I'm Still All That" which implied that they are all that DESPITE their fat, when really they are all that BECAUSE of their fat. I wish Ricki Lake would do more fat topics, you would think she would having been thru it herself.

Reply from: rats on 12/10/98 at 2:35PM. i forgot to add that she has the highest self esteem of ANYONE i know.

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/10/98 at 2:45PM. first of all, i *heart* rats. . .

secondly, i have something to post for the original poster. . .

La Mariposa years ago before i was taught to be ashamed of the way my belly curves outward

before i was told that my thighs are too much my hips are too wide

before i was taught to hate my body

i used to dance in my grandmother's backyard alone with the sound of my own voice

i loved my curves my comfortable clothes and chubby cheeks

my fat arms were wings and i was a butterfly

i wrote that a few weeks ago, but it took me years to be able to believe it. and i still struggle. with myself, and friends like rats, i know that it doesn't matter. i want to be a butterfly again. i want to fly on my own wings and not the wings that society dictates are correct or good enough. i want to love myself. and i do.

original poster, if you want to email me, i have tons of information on how to get from where you are to where you want to be. it helped me lots, and it could help you. let me know, ok?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 2:51PM. Wow, way to go message board. I admit that I have a problem with my thinking process, and I get death and violence threats instead of people trying to help me get over it. Nothing I said was ignorant or whatever, (and I never said "dirty hair", thought Id point that out, sicne two people tried to quote me on it) it's just the general feeling I get around some people. So is anyone gonna help me, or is everyone just gonna insult me some more? And people wonder why misanthropists exist.

Reply from: Q-Tip on 12/10/98 at 2:52PM. That's a really beautiful poem:)

I'm built quite small, and my last gf was what some people would consider to be fat. I had absolutly no problem with her body at all, I loved the way she was. She told me though, when we were going out, that she'd never been with someone as skinny as me, they were always big girls like herself, and that my size made her feel uncomfortable, made her more self-concious.. She explained that it was just something in the back of her head that she couldn't really help.. I was very suportive of her, but there are some things that get programed into people's heads that only they can do something about.

Reply from: Q-Tip on 12/10/98 at 2:54PM. anon above me: what you said *was* ignorant, that's what you have to realize.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 2:57PM. Fucking shut the fuck UP! WHY THE HELL IS YOUR DEFINITION OF IGNORANT ANYONE WHO DOESNT AGREE WITH YOU! CHRIST QTIP, YOU THROW THAT WORD AROUND WAY TO FUCKING MUCH!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 2:58PM. Oh, and thanks again for pointing out that I *AM* ignorant, without making one fucking attempt to help me out. SO much for your hypocritical shit about educating yourself...

Reply from: penny on 12/10/98 at 2:59PM. AND anon, although it's good to ask for help and stuff, YOU have to put in some effort too, try to educate yourself on it, get some zines on the subject and stuff, or just listen to what these people here are saying. I think you probably realise that what you said was very ignorant, (although please correct me if you think I'm wrong) and I think you can learn a lot BY YOURSELF. xoxo penny

Reply from: penny on 12/10/98 at 3:02PM. woah, the above happened while i was typing my post, it seems like the anon is ready to explode, yeah Qtips point exactly - EDUCATE YOURSELF!

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/10/98 at 3:02PM. thanks, Q-Tip. :o) i wrote a paper recently about what it was like growing up fat, and i think that it (the paper) helped me a lot. i have a lot of residue from being so mistreated when i was younger. i am a recovering anorexic and self-mutilator. i also found out that a lot of my previous sexual promiscuity was because i was searching for someone to accept the body i hated. i was also looking to destroy the body i hated. i had a lot of self-destructive issues. but it's amazing what you can do with the right help. also, once you make the decision to decide to love yourself forever, regardless, it gets easier with time. i think that when someone talks about their dissatisfaction about being fat, most people tend to respond with, "well, have you ever tried to diet?" this isn't fair. we should not be expected to change our bodies, to mutilate or starve ourselves simply because we do not fit into a mold.

i love my body. . . most of the time. of course, there are still times, when people stare at me in the cafeteria (as though i'm not supposed to eat) or when some boy rejects me because i'm fat (and i say "boy" because no woman has every rejected me, not because i'm anti-boy). . . these times make me doubt myself. but then i remember that i am beautiful where it counts. and comfortable, not bony or hard. i am maternal. i like me.

don't expect satisfaction with your weight to come over night. it is a constant struggle, i won't lie to you. but it's so worth it to be able to say, look at me, i am beautiful. :o) because you are.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 3:04PM. Well, I got really upset there for a second, about how Q-Tip totally ignored my post, then as an afterthought called me ignorant and then left. Lots of people here call others ignorant but make no effort to help them.

Reply from: Q-Tip on 12/10/98 at 3:07PM. I used the word ignorant because I was quoting her, she said she wasn't ignorant. I'm sorry if you don't think I should point out when people are being transphobic or fatphobic. I guess racism and any sort of bashing on this board is just an "opinion" too. I have every right to point out that shit, because it's harmful and offensive. It's not just a matter of opinion. There's a big difference between having a different opinon, and haveing hurtful, uninformed(uniformed is ignorant) attitudes towards something or someone. Saying someone is ignorant is a lot more constructive that saying they're stupid or treatening them. Ignorance is changeable, all it says is that maybe the person should learn a little more on the issues to shed their hurtful views on a particular group of people. and I no long wish to talk to you, anon, unless you put your name to you accusations.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 3:09PM. okay, anon with the problem--first of all, you said "bad hair" which everyone took as dirty. however, whether you meant dirty or a bad do' (which also has nothing to do with weight) you're making gross generalizations. secondly, all the anons i know are bitter little men. does that make you a bitter little man? not necessarily. . . third and most important, what the hell do you want from me? you want me to make you feel better for being prejudiced? i can't. people like you made me cry when i was younger. people like you perpetuate the origianl poster's issues. people like you make my life harder to live. i will not justify that. you want help? you want me to prove that most fat people are clean and smell good and have nice teeth and are great? i can't. . . i only know that you have no right to assume that all are one way because some are one way. you don't know anyone skinny with bad hair? all the fat people you know are disgustingly ugly? i have a hard time believing that. i had a problem, i got over it by changing my mindset. get over your prejudice and get over yourself. change the way you think about fat people. and don't tell me you can't. people change the way they think all the time. it's the way life works.

Reply from: rats on 12/10/98 at 3:09PM. see why i love her :]

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/10/98 at 3:11PM. that anonymous to the anon about bitter little men and such was me. i got so wrapped up in what i was saying i forgot to put my name. *blush*

Reply from: Q-Tip on 12/10/98 at 3:11PM. I didn't ignore anybody's post. I saw the anon one after I'd already posted my own. It's not our responsibility to educate all the fat phobic people on this board. It's theirs. This post is for fat people who are trying to increase their self-esteem and self-worth, and that's what I think the subject should be on here. If you wish to become un-fatphobic, go out and make the effort yourself, we can't do it for you.

*now back to the post*

Reply from: penny on 12/10/98 at 3:15PM. anon, what would you like to be helped with? is there something specific? a lot of what you said about fat people (bad skin, bad hair - which a lot of people thought you meant greasy or dirty cause you used the same word to describe skin - etc) relates to any person, fat or skinny, short or tall. other things you said like "constantly shifting their bulk", well okay say you had a friend who was in a wheelchair, would you get annoyed with them "constantly having to get help up stairs" - NOT that i am saying being fat is a disability - but realise that, obviously, having fat is a part of being fat, and you can't hold that against someone. You accept it - and love it - as part of who that person is. I think if you really want to change and not be "fatophobic" anymore, it's up to you. There's not much anyone can do to educate you about it, it's a matter of you dealing with it and making the effort to love fat people, it's more of a personal issue than something someone can educate you about. I think you just need to get over it, (without wanting to sound mean cause i don't want to invoke a fight). Do you agree?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 3:17PM. Q-Tip: I admitted I was fatphobic. So there was no need for you to point it out. But thanks for doing to so anyway, I guess. Everyone: Its very hard to help what you think. Changing your way of thinking is something that takes a long time, and the vast majority of people never get over their isms. I know Lynn Breedlove has some interesting ideas on racism- that everyone is, whether they admit it or not. I'm trying to change. But at least there's this- I was never one of the people who tormented people for being fat. Actually, I was a nrrrd for most of my younger life, and so I got most of the tormenting done to me. All I really want you guys to do is to talk about it. Seeing people talk about it makes it more real, and easier for me to accept. Fuck it, nevermind... this is a dumb idea.

Reply from: Q-Tip on 12/10/98 at 3:24PM. No, it's not a dumb idea at all, it is really hard to get over isms, we're so programed by society.. That is what this post is about, but it's more about internalization of those same -isms. A woman I know walked into my room the other day(she is african-american) and said: "wow, you've got a lot of white girls on your walls." And I'm so glad she said that, cuz I realized I was completely unaware of that fact. I knew too many of them were pretty straight looking, but the idea of race, and who we think is beautiful and who gets to be in the magazines hadn't really crossed my mind in the conxet of who *I* deem beautiful enough for my walls. Anyway, yeah, it's the same context.

*feeling guilty for taking up so much of this post when it's not my post..*

Reply from: 2nd poster on 12/10/98 at 3:35PM. to anon at 1:49 I'm sorry if I offended you. You're completely right; it is not a contest. I was wrong to make it one. I did not mean to imply that I think those other groups don't get fucked. I was just trying to emphacize how prevalent and serious I think fat discrimination is. I think that even among people who consider themselves "pc" and who preach tolerance, fat discrimination is largely ignored. I didn't mean to pit oppressed groups at odds with each other and after thinking about what you said, I want to amend my words. Instead of saying fat people are discriminated against "the most", I want to say that I think fat discrimiation is severly underrecognized. Your point is totally valid. Thanks for letting me know the error in my thought without blasting me!

Reply from: penny on 12/10/98 at 3:46PM. "fatophobic" anon. it's good that you recognize your fatophobia, and it's good you wanna change. I think it's also REALLY good that such a sensitive issue is being discussed without everyone totally hating each other and insulting each other.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 6:04PM. top

Reply from: elka flabby arms on 12/10/98 at 7:54PM. i am not the original poster but i very well could have been. today i took a bath and read fat girl: one woman's way out by irene o'garden over again.(it's a poetic narration complete with line illustrations and truths...it's amazing. while her viewpoint is something i'd like to discuss, i love this book. by the way, she mentions susie orbach's fat is a feminist issue and discusses it, too. hmm) i found it in september in a used book store, nestled between fading pulp novels and picture books. the cover has a picture of a girl on it who very well could have been me. actually, about 75% of what the book is about could have happened to me. it's striking how many similarities i find when i read posts like this and books and zines. i never get to actually *talk* with anyone about weight except for muffie occaisionally, and when we do, it's like our hearts are the same. shamed, bloated and sad.

there is so much i want to say on this post. so much. i write about being fat a lot, because i am a fat girl and my weight affects everything i do....but right now outside distractions like my family noisily watching and cooing at some movie they've rented and my wet hair and my blasting walkman (on to cover up my family's sound) are prevalent.. so i sound weird. whatever. i'll post more later. if you want to, any of you, especially the original poster and the fatophobic anon, email me and we can talk, or i'll send you my zine if you ask.

elka

Reply from: hannah on 12/10/98 at 8:10PM. kissing....i sent your poem to my friend, i hope that is okay.

Reply from: kristen w. on 12/10/98 at 8:38PM. we need like a fat kids zine collective or something. i want to get more zines where people write about fat issues, as well as send out some of mine and everything.

Reply from: elka on 12/10/98 at 8:39PM. libby is doing a fat zine compilation. i'll go find her address and then post it...

Reply from: kristen w. on 12/10/98 at 8:40PM. woo thanks elka!! i am so horribly out of the zine loop. miss ericka will be getting a big order from me soon. :)

Reply from: elka on 12/10/98 at 8:43PM. okay. libby makes the zine limosine and runs glovebox zine distro, by the way.

http://members.tripod.com/~glovebox/index.htm po. box 11, san mateo ca 94401

bridget, i read over your poem again. it is beautiful.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/10/98 at 8:43PM. oh! sorry kristen, i didn't see your last post. so, yeah! you're welcome and stuff. :)

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/10/98 at 8:57PM. hannah, it makes me smile that you sent my poem to someone. i hope that a lot of people can relate and remember how to be a butterfly.

Reply from: Larry-bob on 12/10/98 at 9:09PM. Apparently Tripod is case-sensitive. Here's a URL that works: http://members.tripod.com/~Glovebox. There's stuff there about the "fat comp."

Reply from: dr t on 12/10/98 at 9:38PM. kissing, that poem is so beautiful : )

for fatphobic anon, I think it's really cool that you want to change your beliefs and additudes, but you can't expect people here to reach out and want to help you when you start making rash generalizations about fat people. That is fucked. Also, admitting that you are fatphobic does not me that it's okay to say really fucked up offensive things. If you really want to change what you are thinking and doing, stop and think about what you've said before you post it.

Reply from: dr t on 12/10/98 at 9:40PM. I also wanted to say that this post is making me remember why the message board can be a really great thing. the support here on this post is really amazing.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/11/98 at 0:56AM. top

Reply from: elka on 12/11/98 at 1:16AM. larry-bob, thanks for fixing that. and really big thanks to the two people who emailed me about my post. i don't know, i really need contact and conversation like that at this fluctuation in my life. (spell check?)

Reply from: Peter on 12/11/98 at 1:23AM. You spelling checks out...this time.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/11/98 at 1:52AM. peter, i could have really used your help on the "favourite artists" post. oh well.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/11/98 at 2:51AM. It's not too late! I'm there!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/11/98 at 3:13AM. i think everyone should leave the *fatphobic* anon alone. i was fatphobic for years. it was because i thought i was fat (although, @ 5'3, 160lbs, i really wasn't. and that's insulting to fat people that i should call myself that.) and people would tell me all the time, no matter if i was 200 pounds or 100 pounds that i was still fat. (i even once got "you're just a fat girl trying to be skinny.") so i would take it out on girls that i would like that were fat. i wouldn't say anything, but i would be weird about sleeping in a twin bed with them, sharing a loveseat, etc. and i hated myself so fucking much for it. it took me several years to realize it wasn't them, that it was me, and that i really love fat girls, everything about them, just as much (if not more) than average girls or really skinny girls. shit, fat is so fukin punk rock. hell yeah.

Reply from: hannah on 12/11/98 at 3:19AM. i dont think it is insulting to fat girls to feel like a fat girl if you are 5.3 and 160.

maybe i cant speak if i dont 'qualify', but im 5'7 and 140, and i feel like a fat girl, because ive always been the fat girl. i dont feel like i could insult someone from that. i dont go running around being like "IM FAT. DO I LOOK FAT IN THIS?' its just a consciousness i walk around with constantly. i am fat. fine.

Reply from: happy otter on 12/11/98 at 3:24AM. 5.6 and 130. I was portly as a child, and will always feel fat. For the rest of my life. I must be oppressed- can I call the justice department? After all I am a member of the most oppressed minority in America. -Spencer

Reply from: J-mee on 12/11/98 at 5:43AM. uhm, im fat. yeah. i know i am. i dont *usually* care about it. but i cant help but feeling that everytime someone looks at me they think of me as "the fat girl." i know im insecure and thats my own hang-up but i cant help it. ive been chubby all my life and believe ive heard my share of "that girl is so fat" whispers behind my back to know that that IS how ppl see me... but ya know, i still have this hope(altho its withering rather quickly) that one day someone is gunna look at me and think that my body is beautiful and not "fat", when i look at myself in the mirror i actually *like* the way my body is...but i *HONESTLY* dont think im *ever* gunna find someone who *truly* feelz that way too..i think ill always think they are bending the truth just a lil bit to make me feel better...

is it enough for you love yerself and yer body? or do you *need* someone else to love it too...to make you feel secure?

do i sound like an idiot? fuck. ill shut up. *ziiip* :|

J-mee

Reply from: gabe on 12/11/98 at 6:45AM. all i can say is this.. ( actually i could say more but i'm too lazy) if you have a healthy lifestyle with the right amount of exercise, dont worry about your weight. its obviously the way you're supposed to be. if you feel insecure, say to yourself, "this is me, this is the way i am, and the people who accept that are the ones that i deserve, and who deserve me." if someone shuns you because of the way you look, fuck em, they're assholes. you dont want to be friends with them anyway. i have an extremely high metabolism, i eat way more than my friends, but i'm still seen as "skinny" or "frail." the hell with it, if someone has a problem with it, then they're not worth the effort. its who i am, its who you are. blah blah blah

Reply from: Cheri on 12/11/98 at 8:18AM. Well said, Gabe.

That poem was wonderful. Reminded me a bit of Maya Angelou. Nice work. You should have it published, Kissingchaos :)

Reply from: missy on 12/11/98 at 8:38AM. i'm with all of you. at 5'3 and 160 also,i was sickened by my appearance. i did the promiscuity for acceptance thing, the fasting, the being disgusted by the way i look. and i still am. i hate my stretch marks. i hate the way my sides pop over my pants out when i sit down. i hate how my tits sag, and my belly sags, and i have little fatty areas uder my armpits, i hate my lumpy thighs, and my thick arms. but you know what? i've got this wonderful boyfriend who tells me everyday that i look beautiful. tells me that he doesnt care if i am as big as a house, he'll love me anyway. i'm very lucky. i shouldn't have to rely on this kind of acceptance to love myself, but it's better than sleeping around, it's just one more step. and one day, when i'm old and fat, i'll wear a bikini in the front yard, and show all the neighbors what a beautiful woman i am. one day i can know i'm beautiful and believe it.

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 12/11/98 at 9:02AM. Goddamn. Accepting yourself when the gen. message is "fat people don't deserve to live" is not easy. But reading through "I hate my roll of fat I hate my stretchmarks I hate my this my that" is really getting me down. What an exercise in futility. It's how things are, but I could just turn on the size 2 t.v. or listen to my weight-obsessed bone-thin boss to get that. Maybe I shouldn't read this anymore. OR I think I'll post how......

I love the way soft fleshy hips feel as my palm brushes over them. I love the sight of a big ass belly pushing out over the top of low slung shants. There is nothing like the feel of *soft* inner thighs against your cheeks. A fat, curvy ass is a gorgeous thing. Women who take up room are incredibly sexy. CURVES CURVES CURVES. Know what I mean? I love the weight of her. If she's going to push against me hard and I'm going to love it, chances are she's fat and muscular and probably even bigger than me. Just a few of the many things I find sexy about fat, including my own. I never felt as good about myself til I had fat lovers I swooned over.

Reply from: nikki on 12/11/98 at 9:03AM. yeah. i am the original poster. lame.

anyway.. it seems like people get really mad/upset when people who might not be as big as others call themselves "fat." i never understood this. a girl who is 5'3 and 160 pounds (as someone said above) might think she is fat, and sometimes bigger girls will be like, "well, you think YOU are fat? you don't have to deal with the issues's that I am dealing with!" fuck that. we're all in this together. if you can't shop at standard mall shops like the gap/the limited/etc because the clothes are too small or don't fit you right, you aren't built right by society's standards... whether you are 160 pounds or 360 pounds. it's sickening that bigger girls are frowning upon girls who are big, but not AS big because their problems can't possibly compare to those of a much bigger girl. i look at myself and i see flab and strech marks and cellulite and all of those goodies, and it drives me insane. i want to love my curves. hell, i love *yours*. so what the fuck is wrong with me not being able to love my own?

don't forget to invalidate my feelings because i'm less than 200 pounds.

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/11/98 at 9:39AM. there's *nothing* wrong with any of us. that's what we have to keep reminding ourselves. when we assume that there is, we perpetuate what we are trying to destroy: the assumption that thin is normal. first of all, i am 5'6" and weight more than 160 pounds. but you know, that doesn't make my experience of lookism any more valid than anyone else's. any time anyone is made to feel unloveable or unacceptable because of their weight, they experience it. we're all on the same boat here, girls and guys. that's what will make it possible to overcome this. i'm not insulted by people thinner than me worried about their weight. at all. it's something that connects us, something that ties us together in a common struggle. nikki, it seems like it's always easier to love someone else for something we find fault in ourselves for. and even for me, that's true. if you are trying to accept yourself and your weight, then you are doing well. the effort is what defines us. also, why do you love these girls you mention? do the same things not also apply to you? why do you think you are unworthy of the same adoration and love? because you were taught that you didn't? also, to J-Mee. . . there are lots of people who will love you because they think you are beautiful and sexy and wonderful. i have had girlfriens who were "overweight" but, because of that (not despite), they were so incredibly beautiful and comfortable and soft, touchable, wonderful. and i would tell them that, and they would think it was just because i loved them that i could "look past" their fat. but i didn't look past it. i looked right at it, and i adored it. i aodred them. do not EVER doubt that you are completely lovable. what makes someone sexy is their attitude. when you believe that you are sexy and beautiful and worthy of love, then you are, no matter how you look. I *feel* beautiful, and i don't need someone to tell me that i am. i know that i am. the problem lies in not believing people who say that you aren't. you cannot let people control how you feel about yourself. now, i could say, well, J-Mee, i've seen your pic and you're a hottie, but would you believe me? even though i would be telling the truth? that's what i had to concentrate on first. believing someone when they said that they loved my fat. and not assuming they were doing it because they thought i needed to hear it.

also, on kinda another topic, i dislike it when, if i say something about being fat, people always say, "oh, you're not fat." as though it's being bad, and they need to tell me that i'm not bad. i *like* being fat sometimes. i like being comfortable and soft and having a cozy lap and large breasts. i am nurturing by nature, and my weight only helps that. i don't want someone to say i'm not fat. as though i would believe them. as though i would say, "Oh, well, you know, i weigh over 200 pounds, but since so-and-so says i'm not fat, i must not be! alleluia!" i don't need them to tell me i'm ok. that's the point where i am right now. i do not need my friends furthering the notion that fat is bad. because it isn't.

okay, end rant. i seriously could talk about this for hours upon hours. let's have a fat conference. let's all get together and make t-shirts and eat and listen to music and just talk and be fat=beautiful. what do you say?

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/11/98 at 9:41AM. elka, you're beautiful. *heart*

Reply from: elka on 12/11/98 at 10:40AM. i think that it's wrong to judge how "fat" another person is. that's invalidating in a world where almost everything is invalidating to a fat person. kinda like being bi-phobic.."you're not queer enough..." i don't know. i just think that body image is relative to each person's personality. it's all about what you ingest when you grow up (ha ha, yeah, i just realized that pun)--what you learn to shun, to hate, to hide, to love. i don't need to justify my size to any of you because this is an issue with myself. (although posts/conversations/things like this genuinley do help with my issue..it's wonderful to even talk about it and not feel ridiculed..)

bridget, you're ass kicking. the end.

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/11/98 at 11:11AM. i wrote a paper about this for my comp class. if any of you guys want to read it, let me know. i'm really proud of it.

Reply from: M-Kat on 12/11/98 at 11:28AM. I am a recovering self-fat-hater, if that is the word...

Ever since i was little, i was chubby. i was never obese. i think the largest i ever got was in 9th or 10th grade when i wore a size 16 or 18 and i still spilled over the sides of my jeans because they weren't cut to fit my waist, which was bigger than my hips. i didn't curve inward the way i wanted to. i didn't even when i laid on my side. i have been teased, stared at, laughed at, picked on, and humiliated. not only by people at school but by my family. my dad would say that i don't need to eat that candy bar, and my grandmother would say if i didn't watch out i would be a big fat pig. my brother was the worst. i remember when i was in 6th grade i was sitting in the floor on my stomach watching television when he and his friend came by and my brother laughed and said look at her big ass, and a friend of my dad's who hadn't seen me in a while said to my dad, Wow, she's gotten fat! and laughed about it like it was no big deal. i can't find pants that fit my waist without them being too big in the hips and legs, because girl jeans are cut to go in at the waist and i don't. when i try on a size 18 that fits my waist, the legs and crotch hang down far. it is not fair that i can't find clothes to fit. i went into a trendy clothing store once and some tall girl who wore a 3 said to me in her overly exaggerated valley girl accent, "yeah, like, we got some, like, reeallly cute things over here, like, yeah, this sweater, adn like all of this rack is on sale,like here." and i looked at her in the eye and said, "do you think that i could ,like, wear any of this stuff?" and she looked at me and said, ever so chipper,"well, if you ,like,need help with something, just let me know!" and walked away. i could never borrow clothes from friends because they were always too small.

but now, i am with a boy that is the most wonderful thing in the world. when i am feeling self concious and don't want to go out because i think i look fat, he will kiss my belly and tell me i am the most beautiful thing in the world. he says that he loves to get hugs from me because our bodies meld together and we don't stick each other with our bones. i am doing better when i look at myself. i have lost some weight and i don't go by sizes anymore. i cut all the tags out of my clothes so that i don't worry about numbers. i am starting to walk because i want to be healthy. my family doesn't mess with me anymore, i guess it is because i am older , i don't know. anyway....

wow, this is really long....

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/11/98 at 2:21PM. once in my comp class, we were talking about how apparently, according to Lane Bryant, "large" women were size 18-22. and all the guys were like, DAMN!!! 22?!? and i remember thinking that it's not even "large." that's slightly overweight. but everyone freaked.

i'm not a size 3. i'm not a size 23. i'm larger than all of those, and finding clothes is a pain in the ass. but i shop at thrift stores and salvation armies, and i wear comfy clothes. i've learned not to care about that. how many times have i responded to this post. . . it seems to be something that i have dealt with a lot lately. it's a daily thing. today i had to defend myself for eating cookies. "you really shouldn't have those." i want them. i should have them. why should i feel guilty for eating? i won't. i just want you guys to know that i love you and think you're all fairly awesome in your own ways. ;o) *hugs*

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/11/98 at 2:21PM. top

Reply from: billy q on 12/11/98 at 2:28PM. fat girls are seXXXy *rawr*

Reply from: J-mee on 12/11/98 at 3:08PM. first of all i wanna say M-KAt you are *beeootiful* babe! :) *hugz* and all that shit yer fucken family put you thru makes me so sad. i cryed... cos when i was younger my family, mostly my bros, would make funn of me all the time...my uncle used to call me the "human garbage disposal" *sniffle* gawd, it fucken killz me to say that...

fuck. when i was 8 fucken-yrs old i was bulemic. i fucken HATE admitting that. im so ashamed of who i was back then...its been yrs since ive done the whole eat-and-puke thing...im fucken proud of that..it was so hard to get over that...but i did. and now im *much* healthier. it rilly pains me to see how ppl are so insensitive to other ppls feelings...esp on this board. i always thought it was *safe* to post personal stories and such...but now ppl are attacking ppl fer no damn reason at all...*sigh*

im gunna shut up again now, J-mee

Reply from: caseycultist on 12/11/98 at 3:57PM. i'm not fat. i'm ugly. like nikki, i can accept so many different looks on so many people, i see beauty all around me. but i have these crazy standards for myself. i always mess with my hair. i always look at myself in the mirror and despair. sometimes people will tell me i'm a pretty girl, but you know how it is. i only believe the people who say i'm ugly because i think that mean=honest. and what i hate most of all is that i even care about being pretty. but it's one of those awful, secret, burning desires i have always had inside.

Reply from: rollypolly on 12/11/98 at 6:15PM. i was always picked last to play any kind of sport at school. but that just made me want to play as hard as i could and run as fast as i could and i did. just to prove. but i shouldnt have to prove anything. that was elementary school. i still feel like im a big picture of weakness. im fat. so im weak. emotionally, physically. ive tryed to love my body. i see other girls who are "corporallly well endowed" and that have some other really awesome physical appearances and i get crushes on them. im attracted to big girls.

Reply from: M-Kat on 12/11/98 at 6:22PM. j-mee--i fucking love you so much!

Reply from: vanessa on 12/11/98 at 6:57PM. there are so many things to say about this..i dont even know where to begin..i've tried for a very long time to love my body..sometimes i do, but 90% of the time i hate it. i hate fat on me. and ashamedly i hate it on other people too. sometimes at work i'll see a fat girl with a really cute boy and i think "wow, how on earth did she get him?" like fat people don't deserve to be with someone. all the hatred i feel for myself i project onto other people and i really really wish i wouldn't..in a case like i just mentioned, i think it's bitterness, or jealousy..that that person has someone, and i don't. and i blame it on being fat. which brings me to another issue..for a pretty good while i was semi-comfortable about my body. the fact that i was fat didn't permeate my everyday existence. this summer when i started coming to the board, at first i felt really empowered..i thought i was on my way to really accepting my body and myself. that's why i started the fatpower list, which is more or less completely dead. but now..i'm more self-conscious than ever. i want to blame so many things on being fat. and so many times, my weight really has absolutely NOTHING to do with the situation..but somehow i'll find a way to bring it into it.. my mom once said that she wondered if the reason that i never really try to lose weight is because when i'm fat, i can blame so many of my problems on that. if i weren't fat anymore, and i still had the same problems..then i'd have to admit that it was *me* and not the weight that was the problem.

at least two posters on here mentioned their wonderful boyfriends who tell them how beautiful they are..which is great..but i think it speaks on the fact that for a lot of us, we really need that external validation to believe that we are actually beautiful. i know i do. i wish i didn't..but i do. in a way i agree with casey, that honest = mean. i can't believe it when someone says i'm beautiful. i always feel like they are just saying it to get something from me.

and the whole promiscuity issue..i guess that's me too..although i don't consciously realize it..maybe it's more of an simple acceptance issue..i want people to like me, and i feel like saying no will make someone not like me. i don't know if that's got to do with my weight or not..

and though it's not right AT ALL to play the "i'm fatter than you, you can't possibly understand what it's like.." game..i can see where people are coming from when they do it. i'm 5'4" and like 215 lbs. to be 160 lbs would make me ECSTATIC. i would never want to invalidate anyone's feelings because of this..and i hope i don't. i guess i just recognize where those people are coming from.

i know part of why i feel so uncomfortable about myself is because there really are hardly any fat girls in "the scene" here..there's only one fat girl i've seen often at shows. most of the other girls are fucking toothpicks..like literally size 0 or 1. i have no idea why that is..if the atmosphere in this town is such that fat girls feel like they can't go out, or if there really just aren't any fat girls or what..but in memphis, i never feel fat..well no, i do. but more as a descriptive term, not as something negative. i don't look around and thing "god, i'm the fattest girl in the room"..cause there are fat girls, skinny girls, and everyone just has a good time. i have almost no female support here..maybe that's the problem. i dont know.

i can only hope that one day i will love myself, no matter what i weigh..and i really hope i can do it on my own, without validation from anyone else..but i don't know if it's possible. if ANYONE wants to talk about this stuff please feel free to email me..cause i'd love to talk about it..i just don't have any "real life" friends that understand this issue at all.. elka..i can't wait to read your zine! i think i forgot to give you my address though..i'll email it to ya..

Reply from: elka on 12/11/98 at 7:42PM. thanks vanessa! i totally want to talk with you about this.. also, i'd subscribe to your fatpower list if it's still alive...?

i blame a lot of stuff on my fat because it always seems to be my major hindrance (spelling? where's peter?) i always have these thoughts like i'd be so beautiful, articulate, rich and well liked if i were thin. because thin equals "ideal." thin is what everybody wants. you gotta be your "ideal" weight so i must be low and slobbish. and then i have these thoughts like "what are you saying here, elka, you know that this is not right..." it's like i'm always working at taking that thin person inside me ("inside every thin person is a fat person dying to get out") and making her a part of me, but she's daunting and untangible like a day dream. maybe this is why whenever i day dream, i'm thin. patterns can be so fucked. sometimes i feel okay, sometimes i feel normal...and then i just feel so disgusting.

in regaurds to the whole "i'm scared to lose weight" issue... has anyone ever wondered if they'd be a different person once they lost weight? like how i just know i'd be perfect or whatthefuckever? (and i know that that's not ever going to happen--perfection--so maybe this is why i'm scared to lose weight/think it's impossible.) yes. i do want to lose some weight. i'm sick of not fitting into my favourite clothes from two years ago. i can't afford to buy "new" clothes, thriftstore or otherwise, right now....(ericka and i used to talk about how it's so hard to find good shit at thrift stores because the odds are stacked against our bodies...i really want a pair of crazy ass wranglers but they don't have them in my size...) maybe wanting to lose weight is giving into my shame....it's all mixed up. i don't know what's *healthy* for me, what's *right* for me, and what's a stupid cultural manifestation.

this post is wonderful and it's actually kinda overwhelming to someone like me, not being exposed to any fat positive stuff usually..

Reply from: nikki on 12/11/98 at 7:52PM. i wonder that a lot, elka. i don't think i would be, though. i don't really blame things on my being fat.. i blame things, including my being fat, on my anxiety/depression/panic disorders. i don't do that vocally, but i will sit there and constanly beat myself up over everything because i'm too "paranoid" or too "sensitive." i blame my weight on that, too.

i get self conscious when i'm around a lot of skinny people. i don't really care if people think i'm fat, it's just that when i see skinny people, *i* am constantly reassured that i am fatter than these people.. and it makes me feel like shit. i'm sure that's weird. i've dated skinny people.. people that i felt uncomfortable being unclothed with because i could look at myself with them and see how much larger i am than them.. although they would tell me that they love my body. like someone up there said, i had an ex boyfriend who would lovingly touch my tummy and tell me he loved it, but i just couldn't believe how anyone possibly could.

i don't know what it is about my body i find so repulsive, or why i do. i mean, i do, but i don't know why i just don't like it on me. whoever asked me that question... there's your answer. i really have no idea.

Reply from: elka on 12/11/98 at 8:02PM. i don't think i would be (a different person if i were to lost weight), though. i don't really blame things on my being fat.. i blame things, including my being fat, on my anxiety/depression/panic disorders. i don't do that vocally, but i will sit there and constanly beat myself up over everything because i'm too "paranoid" or too "sensitive." i blame my weight on that, too.

wow. i blame my mental health problems on my weight. i mean, i always beat myself up over being too paranoid and sensitive too (we should start a club), but i scapegoat my weight so much that it's the cause of everything "wrong" with me. oh, and i meant that i daydream think i'd be perfect or whatever if i were to be thin. but in reality, i think i know better. so maybe i just don't wanna make the effort because i'm too busy scapegoating my fat. hello, i'm fucked up.

Reply from: peesha on 12/11/98 at 9:46PM. I loved reading this thread. This is some heart warming celebrate the moments of your life honest feelings shit. I am happy with my body. I accept my fat. I think of myself as beautiful and maybe more so as any other woman. I guess I am lucky in that way. *sharing some of it with you guys* I really love everyone who posted here. I am in love with all of you. I have this big swollen heart that feels all tight with tears. thank guys. --love alysia

Reply from: vanessa on 12/11/98 at 10:30PM. does anyone else get mad at their parents for "letting" them get fat (for those of you who have always been fat)? i was told that when i was little, like up to 1st or 2nd grade i was really skinny..like dangerously skinny..cause i was sick all the time. then i started getting treatment for my allergies and i just ballooned..i fucking hate looking at my 3rd grade picture, which is on the mantle at my parents house..i look so puffy and bloated.. i get mad at my mom sometimes..like why didn't she stop me from eating so much..why couldn't she had done something so that i wouldn't have turned out this way..i know it's not her fault though. i always feel the need to blame someone i guess..

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/11/98 at 10:51PM. does anyone else get mad at their parents for "letting" them get fat (for those of you who have always been fat)?

i'm not really sure how to feel about this. i mean, i know why i'm fat. my grandmother was this kick ass german woman who could cook like no one's beez wax. and i sat around when i was younger cos i LOVED to read. so i read and ate. and i sucked at sports. but did my parents and grandma make me fat? did they "let" me get this way? i don't think so. not anymore than they let me get intelligent, or "bisexual," or a good writer, or any of the other things that are a part of my essence. i just *am* fat. sure, i wasn't always, but i wasn't always a lot of the things that i am now. if you got skinny, would you be happy? does anyone whose happiness is based upon their appearance ever get happy? i am not sure. . . but i know that skinniness does not equal happiness. if you're not happy with yourself at 250 lbs, i don't think you would be at 125 lbs. am i making any sense here? we've got to stop giving other people the power to hurt us and make us doubt ourselves. we have to learn that we are worthy of love and respect no matter what. i'm so fucking serious about the fat conference. who's with me?

elka, write me, ok? seriously. . .

Reply from: kristen w. on 12/11/98 at 11:13PM. hi. first i would like to say that this thread rocks my universe. next i would like to say that this thread is the first time ever in my life that i've heard someone say (and i'm paraphrasing here) they think that size 22 is slightly overweight. i'm a size 22, and my eyes bugged out of my head when i read that. next, i've been noticing bigger girls at chicago shows lately. not a lot of them, but like three or four besides me, and i think it's really rad. hopefully they hold me in the same regard, because i get empowered by seeing them in "the scene" and i hope i can do the same for them. vanessa, move here.

perhaps it's really cheezy to say that i feel love here, but i do. and we aren't all necessarily agreeing or feeling the same way, but we're discussing and helping each other out, and this is so rad. party at my house.

xoxo kristen

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 0:32AM. top this one. . . it's so important

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 0:57AM. [Image]

the beauty of fat.

Reply from: badass fatass on 12/12/98 at 1:18AM. i just wanted to let you all know that me and some friends are putting together a zine called "the badass fatass reader," it's a bunch of fat dyke stuff. if anyone is interested in writing something for it, email me and we can talk about it... also, if person at the top of the thread ever actually makes these shirts, i want a shirt that says "fat people look good." hell, i think i'll make one myself. thumbs up to all the foxy fat girls. xox

Reply from: x angela x on 12/12/98 at 10:03AM. I just had to something about this thread coz this is a subject close to my heart(some people no doubt think i go on about it too much),i dunno how it is in the US but here in the UK things are pretty shocking concerning fatphobia, it's very sad to see actresses like the beautiful Kate Winslet getting slagged off for being FAT?! Like,excuse ME, but she is NOT fat! (i DON'T wanna sound like i'm saying that coz fat is bad, coz we all should know it's NOT)She must be a size 12 or 14 (i think that's ummm...8 & 10 in US size?correct me if i'm wrong...)which is LOWER than the national average of 16! It's just madness and i'm *so* glad she answered back to all those shitty journalists/media fucks who had a go at her for her weight & proudly said (in so many words); "I'm NOT a model,i don't want to be/look like a model, why SHOULD I?" and "...I am what I am - like it or lump it!" Go Kate! (and by the way she looked STUNNING at her wedding! *sigh* Her husband obviously loves the way she looks!)It's so great to have a woman role model for young girls who isn't a bean-pole! I,personally,think that most top models today look repulsive - they look akin to starving people in Africa,so how is THAT 'beautiful'?! 'oh, yes! You look like you haven't eaten for weeks! Marvellous! Beautiful!...' *ugh* It's so sad that being skinny is now connected to being wealthy - it wasn't *that* long ago in time that being fat was assossiated w/ being well-off, because it meant if you were fat then you obviously could AFFORD to eat well. Now it's if you're skinny it's means you can eat well(i.e. at posh eateries) BUT afford to get rid of the weight thru dieting/going to the gym/having personal dieticians/etc...which all costs MONEY. So being fatphobic is a class/society thing as well as a media-related problem. As soon as we stop assossiating having loads of money w/ being a great person the sooner (hopefully) the whole sizism thing will cease. Another thing (sorry this is such a long post!) is we are ALL different shapes & sizes, we're not ALL meant to be thin & tall (& blonde & have good skin)NATURALLY. I just wish that eveybody would realise this fact of life! I personally think the female sizing system is SHITE, how come in one shop i'm 'this' size & in another i'm 'that' size?! It's completely fucked up! and i'm SICK of it. *humph* Well.that was my point of view anyway! Hope it made some sense...Thanks for listening.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 10:14AM. all the drama that you crave...

Reply from: x angela x on 12/12/98 at 10:18AM. Eh?! What's that 'sposed to mean??

Reply from: elka on 12/12/98 at 11:06AM. angela, just ignore the weird anon post. thanks for sharing your thoughts.! it's amazing what the media shoves onto people...since actors and actresses and famous people in general are living fairy tale representations of our lives, their bodies/body images always get torn to shreds... anyhoo.

i totally used to blame my dad for making me fat. he's always been the biggest male influence (you could even just say singular influence, male or no) in my life regaurding my body. he taught me to fucking hate my body, hate me, hate hate hate. and somewhere along my childhood, maybe he somehow showed me that i could fill my holes up with food. temporary and instant gratification. binging. whatever. but i'm not a kid anymore and yeah i have this body but it's my body and i'm not going to "blame anyone for it." i think i've passed that stage, thankfully. (sick how everything for me is in stages) vanessa, hi-five for being so honest and conversational. hi-fives to everybody here, actually. i fucking love this post.

Reply from: DOH on 12/12/98 at 11:09AM. but i'm not a kid anymore um i didn't mean that "blaming someone for your fat" is childish, i'm sorry if i made it seem that way.

*gettin all gussied up for the party at kristin's house* awww yeah

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 12/12/98 at 12:31PM. I think the only way my mom made me fat was to put on scary freak diets from age 7 on. I was a chubby kid. But in case you didn't know, dieting (esp. when you're growing) fucks with your metabolism and causes (often) permanent heart disease and weight gain. Most the fat folks I know who were fat kids have mentioned being on starvation diets as kids. So if you resent your parents for not putting you on a diet, keep in mind that starving you/depriving you and giving you a big complex about your weight instead of accepting you as you were may have caused you weight gain, metabolic disorders, eating disorders and heart disease! I am just amazed to hear of cases where parents let their kids be and *didn't* pressure them to be thin. It's so rare...

Reply from: anonymous on 12/12/98 at 12:35PM. y'all are so beautiful.

Reply from: ROLYPOLY on 12/12/98 at 12:46PM. I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS THREAD. AND EVERYTHING ABOUT ALL OF YOU. I THINK ITS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE THES DISCUSSIONS. THANKS ALOT.!!!!!!!! this guy i know made this totally tactless comment. he said to me it was ok to be fat as long as your clean. that just pissed me off so much. it hurt my feelings. my best friend was there and she was there with me. defending me. cause i was speechless. that was so not nice... i hate it that fat people are stereotypically slobs. ..

Reply from: Sparkle on 12/12/98 at 1:27PM. I didn't read all of this post.. but i just wanted to say that I Am SO attracted To Chubby people, I love a nice mushy soft tummy :) Yummy :)

Reply from: Sparkle's lover (poe) on 12/12/98 at 2:16PM. Sparkle really likes fattttt because she likes me and i am fat i think little fatt i cute but not alot i think tooo much is nasty and too skinny is yucky too Poe

Reply from: Sparkle on 12/12/98 at 2:21PM. Poe :) My lover ::drool:: she's so FUCKIN HOT!!!!! And so FUCKIN Sexy!!!!!!!! :) She's just the best girlfriend anyone could have , and I'm so lucky to have her. ::MUAH::

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 12/12/98 at 2:27PM. Thanks, poe, for demonstrating part of why it is that ultra-fat people have some differing problems than smaller fat people. You, for instance, are one of our problems. (Not that I'm slamming smaller fat people, who I do take seriously. We all have differing levels of privelege, discrimination, abuse, mobility, etc. daily.... it just helps us to acknowledge it.)

Reply from: hannah on 12/12/98 at 2:39PM. yeah thats another thing, my mom had me on the diet train since like 5th grade or something fucked up like that.

ive been to nutritionists, psychologists, psychiatrists, all because i was 'fat'. ha ha ha ha. i wasnt fat. at ALL. *i* thought i was. my mom wanted to help me, because i was getting depressed.

too bad it fucked me up so bad.

im sure this is the same as all of you, but i canNOT eat in front of people, im so self conscious about it, and because im always the gross fat girl, in my mind, i cant do anything else that is gross. like i never could burp or fart or pee or take a shit, because that is gross, and i am fat and gross so i cant do those things. skinny girls can do those things and they will be cute, but i cannot.

i still feel like that, even though my head tells me not to. i am getting better about eating in front of people, i am getting better about letting people touch me and feeling like its okay, its me, this is me and that is all...

now i just gotta shit in front of people, and everything will be fine.

i learned how to burp this year. watch out, fuckers.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 3:05PM. this is fucking amazing. must be topped

Reply from: M-Kat on 12/12/98 at 3:11PM. This should go to the archives.

Reply from: tiffini on 12/12/98 at 3:20PM. i really love this post. i do. i vote it to go to the archives :)

a few weeks ago i had a very interesting intense conversation with my amazing english professor about sizeism. one of the things she brought up was how if marilyn monroe was an actress today she would be 'fat'. she teaches a film class and shows some monroe films(ie: 'some like it hot') and she told me it's really fucked up how many people say 'ohmygawd. she is so fat!' when the class discussion begins.

xotiffini

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 3:22PM. skinny people aren't gross.. :(

I love girls who are bigger then me, but 2 of them have had problems with my size.. One made an offhanded comment that "I like big girls because they're soft, skinny girls are just boney." And the other girl was really self-concious around me, my size made her feel worse about her body.. eventhough I told her I loved her body and I tried to encourage her to not be ashamed of it (i.e. wearing a tank top in public, trying to be supportive of her) I knew a girl in high scool who was 6 feet tall and skinny as all hell, she was built like a supermodel. She got shit constantly, people thought she was anorexic, and made comments about how "gross" she looked all the time.. She ate like a horse, had no sort of eating disorder, she was just naturally skinny. A lot of the vey skinny people I've known are severly self-concious about their bodies.. they'd lie in bed stuffing their faces just to try to gain a little weight. It's like the only people with 'perfect' bodies are the ones in the magazines, and I've heard them be ripped apart too(for either being disgustingly skinny or too fat(!?)).

I think we need to learn to not just love and accept fat people(which we should first and foremost) but to also except everyone's body as beautiful.

Reply from: noella on 12/12/98 at 4:37PM. i'm a healthy girl, you know, 5'1 and 130 lbs. and i've had such a wide variety of lovers and friends, not only in personalities, but also weights and heights. my first ever girlfriend, who is still one of my bestest friends, is a recovering anorexic--and i found it really difficult at the time to deal with her eating and intimacy issues. she hated eating in front of me, and she hated for me to call her beautiful or to look at her naked body in the light or to take a shower with me, but we worked hard to create a comfort level and to have a beautiful relationship. another important lover of mine is fat and beautiful, god, is she beautiful, especially since she loved her body as much as i did. she grew up as a quiet, independent and "antisocial" girl, which i think helped her from being socialized into hating her fat. and my bestest friend is a tall as fuck, bony child who i love more than the world. it's all about women loving and supporting each other and affirming our beauty. because we are all beautiful, and im not just being innocent and doey-eyed--i have yet to meet anyone that did not have some kind, some little particle of beauty and goodness. also, im going to tell this girl in my sociology class to read this thread...we're discussing racism, and she brought up her experiences with sizeism in clothing stores, and the professor pretty much just blew her off. maybe this can help her. but you really are all beautiful. thank you.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 6:24PM. toptoptoptop

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/12/98 at 6:47PM. i think that noella made a really good point. . . if we're going to overcome this sizeism thing, we're going to have to let it go both ways. . . and that means avoiding generalizations like "fat people are slobs" or "skinny people are boney." the point here is to encourage, not to be devisive.

hmm. . . about my parents. . . they never put me on diets when i was younger. but about high school, my mom started hinting, and she always does that "you don't need to eat that" thing, which i don't think she realizes how much that hurts me. also, i understand how difficult it is to realize that someone does love you along with what you consider to be your weight problem. but don't call us liars when we say you're beautiful or sexy. i'm not saying you automatically believe us, but i don't like being called a liar, and i don't like being doubted. is that selfish? i, for one, don't say things just to stroke the ego. . . i say them because i mean them.

*standing in her room* should i wear the brown or black pants to kristen's party? *smiles* brown. . . *giggling*

Reply from: elka boom boom traz on 12/12/98 at 7:13PM. that's a really important point... it's not good to make gross generalizations about (skinny) people when as a (fat) person you're trying to shake the generalizations (skinny) people have tagged onto you. (you can reverse "skinny" with "fat" if you want) i hate eating in front of people too. anybody ever been sent to a fat camp? the summer after seventh grade i was and i was mortified to go. i didn't tell anyone about it for years. funny thing was, when i was at the camp for the most part, i didn't feel chastized about my weight. but i did notice that the thinner fat people were championed...it's like the heirarchies are intact whereever we go. what did i expect though, going to a fat camp. a place designed to make you hate your preteenaged body and strip you of your dignity while they monitored your intake of peanut butter and oatmeal and made you run twice a day...

Reply from: christina on 12/12/98 at 8:30PM. wow...where do i start... rats- i loved your story. the part about "mystery girl's" hair made me feel all squishy. kissingchaos- you're poem is absolutely amazing. i don't even think i can find the right words to tell you how beautiful i think it is.... also,i would like to read your paper. email me. this whole post is amazing...i really believe that we can learn so much about ourselves as well as society in general simply from sharing our thoughts and experiences on issues like this...it's the first step to change...at least that's what i'd like to think. having said that: i am 5'3" about 120-5 pounds. most days i don't think i'm "fat.." or "overweight." most days. two years ago, i guess, my mom decided that i needed to loose a few pounds. and i ask you... who wants carrots instead of cookies in their lucnch? especially when you knows it's not to make your eyesight better... i'll never forget the day i walked into my mom's place of employment and one of her co-workers looked at me and said to her, "you're crazy. she doesn't need to loose any weight." i was horrified and angry. yet, in spite of my desire to love myself and my body, societal conceptions of "thin and beautiful" (as well as my momma's) started to wear on me. one night i was so close to making myself throw up (i didn't).... i didn't know what to do or who to talk to. all i knew was that i couldn't stand to look at myself. i recently reread the journal entry i wrote that night... incoherent scribbles... god, i was so scared. so i return home this thanksgiving in the mists of my first year at college (where i have lost some weight simply because of the cafeteria) ... i walk through the door for the family turkey day gathering and my grandmother (after giving me a huge hug) says to me "i like you better thinner. you should watch what you eat, blah, blah..." i like you better thinner. happy (fucking) thanksgiving most days i don't think i'm "fat." most days. for me, it's unbelievable to think about how mothers (and other family members) influence one's image of herself. this isn't about blame. it is about recognizing a *source* of the the problem, the pain, the war on our bodies. it's about listening to our own voices, instead of theirs. it's about looking in the mirror, knowing you don't like her better thinner you just like her better.

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/12/98 at 8:48PM. oh my god, that makes me want to cry. i like you, but not cos yer thinner. cos you're Awesome.

and i don't care how cheezy it is, i love you all.

Reply from: noella on 12/12/98 at 10:47PM. oh gosh, i just had this really relevant and upsetting/angering experience. here i am, saturday night, procrastinating with my dear friends...so we decided to rent Hairspray, cuz it's such a fun movie. i didnt even put it together that it deals with racism, sizeism, and even a little classism. but anyways, so we're chillin in the living room, when this girl and her boyfriend come in, ask what we're watching--this is what disturbed me-- girl: "oh, is that ricki lake?" boy: "yeah, that's her when she was REALLY Fat." i was so mad, but i didnt say anything until they left, and then i started swearing and brandishing a certain finger, and my friends didnt understand why i was pissed, and when i did explain it, they were like, "oh, yeah..." i dont know if im more upset with that dumb asshole or with these two friends. and i wonder if they would have reacted in the same way if our friend eva was watching it with us, who is fat and awesome. as for mothers, everytime i've gone home JUST this SEMESTER, my mom has been skinnier and skinnier. and she's still not happy. she's been dieting since i was about 10 or 12. and she has tried to inflict her mindset on me, which makes it impossible for me to shop with her, because i see the way she stares at my thighs, or tries to avoid staring at them, and the way she reacts to my size (since im bigger than her). and then when im excited about something, like my first ever pair of vinyl pants, and i tried them on for her, she was like you better watch out that you dont gain any weight or else you wont ever be able to wear them. and you know i havent worn them. im still embarassed. especially being at this school, with all these pretty, white, skinny (rich) girls. even a lot of the lesbians here are really weird and fucked up about people who arent necessarily really skinny or in shape. i dont know. this society is in a sad shape, and the fact is that we, meaning white Americans and our ancestors, have constructed our society to be like this, where youth, thinness, and perfect white skin are the absolutes. it just makes me really angry. other cultures are not like this.

Reply from: thinner on 12/12/98 at 11:18PM. If you want to loose weight, you should put down the potato chips and dip, stop whining and start exercising. You don't have to buy expensive workout clothes or buy membership to a gym or have a personal trainer. It doesn't cost any money to start running around the block everyday or to perform sits ups and push ups in your own bedroom. It just takes discipline and hard work to loose the fat; having a toned body doesn't just come naturally, you have to work hard for it. It doesn't have to be an anorexic/bulemic thing (I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables.) And a lot of people have self-esteem and confidence issues to work out; if you're already skinny you might want to go see a therapist instead of a nutrionist. So you have choice, you can sit there crying and feeling sorry for yourself and rant about fat opression , or you can actually try and do something about being fat.

Reply from: muffie on 12/12/98 at 11:29PM. ooooh, i see, thinner!! if i decide to "become thin" THEN i'll be doing something instead of sitting here talking about fat oppression!!! that sounds like a great plan but first i need to start hating every race but the white one so that i'm not talking about racism and how it is bad!!! i see!!

Reply from: noella on 12/12/98 at 11:32PM. "thinner" you're totally missing the point. the point is not that i want to be thin. the point is that im upset because im "supposed" to want to be thin, because society says that this...blahblahblah...is the certain weight that im supposed to be. But according to whose standards? that's what im pissed about. i probably shouldnt even be answering you back since you dont even understand that some people have found it virtually impossible to lose weight, no matter what they do (it might even be an hereditary gene, for certain people), or that maybe some people dont want to lose weight, like me! i just dont want to have to be constantly facing jerks who think that i should want to.

Reply from: penny on 12/12/98 at 11:38PM. to thinner: a) a lot of people are naturally skinny and have eat a lot of very unhealthy things b) a lot of people are naturally fat and eat very healthily. conclusion: body size has NOTHING to do with whether you should "see a nutritionist" or not. PLUS, you have totally missed the point of fat oppression/liberation. it is about LOVING yourself as fat and not trying to conform to a body size that is unnatural for yourself.

Reply from: noella on 12/12/98 at 11:54PM. right on, penny. you said it.

Reply from: kristen w. on 12/13/98 at 1:05AM. to anon at 6:47: wear whichever pants that hug your foxy ass. that's my plan, anyway.

xoxo kristen lugging out the go-gos records

Reply from: hmm. on 12/13/98 at 1:57AM. 5'7" 200+ lbs...i'm too scared to get on a scale. i have one other fat friend. all the rest are thin thin thin. what i hate about being fat- trying on clothes with my mother standing outside the door saying 'does this one fit?' being with a group of people and realizing i'm the fattest one. especially when there are a lot of people in the group feeling that i'm not able to eat junk food. when all my thin friends can eat chips if they feel like it, but feeling wierd ordering food thats 'fatening' at a restaurant. being scared they'll think 'oh, so this is how she got so fat' when a friend came over one day after swimming in the ocean and asked to borrow a pair of pants cuz she was freezing and we had to find string because they were falling off of her having to crawl through small spaces and worrying about getting stuck (big nightmares about this one) having buttons pop off of button flys at really inconvient times looking at myself in the mirror naked (after a shower i get dressed as quickly as possible)

okay. i'm getting less and less hating about myself. for instance....i love laying in bed at night and running my hands over my stomach. it's soft and squishy and comforting. and i love that i have big boobs. if i lost my stomach i'd lose them too. nuzzling my face into my soft arm. the softness and silkyness of my whole body. the feeling i get when i run my fingers over my thighs. i've found that i'm only really comfrotable...and then, not even truely comfortable, with my body at night before i fall asleep. in the daytime i don't like it. okay. g'night.

Reply from: getting fat on 12/13/98 at 2:41AM. This is a totally curious question. the "thinner" person above posted a somewhat aggressive post about how to become thinner, followed by people explaining that they didn't actually want to become thinner, they just wanted to be accepted as fat, or whatever. A lot of society regards being fat just as yucky as having bad body odor, or horrible acne, or dressing like a bum or whatever. Since a lot of people don't seem to care about being thinner, and want people to accept them for what they are, does that mean that people who don't take showers or use deodorant should start a revolution and demand that people accept them as stinky? Or people that dress in torn, dirty rags should demand that people accept them as they are, rather than doing something proactive to change that (presuming that they could)? The idea is that if other people think something about you is gross, and you have the ability to change it ( and I do know that not all fat people have that ability), that you should get angry at others for disliking it, rather than changing it?

Reply from: x claire x on 12/13/98 at 6:12AM. okay, first off, angela is thee most gorgeous woman IN the UNIVERSE, and i feel so lucky to have her as my bessy friend.

you can sit there crying and feeling sorry for yourself and rant about fat opression , or you can actually try and do something about being fat.

i haven't seen many people on this thread feeling sorry for themselves. more feeling sorry for people like you who think that every fat person OBVIOUSLY wants to change themselves, because it's such a terrible offliction. how much more closed minded can you be? is it beyond you to realise that hey, maybe i LIKE MYSELF? maybe i have better, more creative things to do than run around the block? maybe it's better to work on your own mental state - the root of the problem rather than the aesthetic? once you're thin, what will you hate about yourself next? it's a never ending cycle. i don't want to fuel the oppressive, greedy and manipulative diet industry, thanks.

can i also say, skinny is not ugly or bad... my boyfriend is built like a twig and i LOVE it, as i said on another post, we fit together so perfectly. i can honestly say that i go for a beautiful smile and funny, intelligent conversation... sod the size of the stomach, what the hell does the stomach matter??

nikki, you sound EXACTLY like me. i'm in a positive mood right now, but i slip back and forth into depression. having read what you've written, i'm glad i contributed that article to your site :o) ...if you wanna talk about this, email me - we can probably empathise eith each other and help each other out a LOT! stretchmarks and un-smooth skin are gorgeous. they're like lines on your hands, they're part of having a body and a history, being real and not airbrushed. it's only fashion mags that will say otherwise. i promise.

Reply from: x claire x on 12/13/98 at 9:36AM. and up to the top, don't let this one die!

Reply from: M-kat on 12/13/98 at 10:19AM. this won't die yet!

Reply from: elka on 12/13/98 at 11:10AM. i love every single person who posted pieces of their truths on this thread. you are all amazing, you are all amazing, you are all amazing.

kristin, can i request "vacation?" i fucking love that go go's song.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/13/98 at 11:28AM. i dont get you guys sometimes... i see all these ppl posting their wieght and heights and im thinking.. 5'3" and 140...thats just a lil chub er something thats not what i consider "fat"...i think its sooo sad how there are ppl who fit this and think that they are "fat" yer not fucken fat, ok? not that im pissed at them fer thinking they are...im pissed that sometime in their lives they were *made* to think that this size WASbeing fat cos that is a bunch of fucken bullshit. *sigh* ok, im 5'2" and 200lbs. i *KNOW* thats "overweight" but ya know..i dont really think i look like i weight *that* much so i just never say how much i weigh. actually i just *look* x-tra chubbed, and im ok w/ that. i wish *OTHER* ppl were....fat-haters?! pft! thats so fucken depressing to know that this kind of ingnorance(thats what it is!) is around, and on this msg brd too...fuck.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/13/98 at 1:16PM. top hat, top dollar, top this post!

Reply from: BethX on 12/13/98 at 2:56PM. I heard somewhere that the average woman is like a size 16 or so... anyone have that stat lying around? -BethX (too damn lazy to do her own research)

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/13/98 at 3:43PM. arg. first of all, running sucks for me. it makes my breasts hurt, and i get black eyes. secondly, i can think of approximately seven million things i would rather be doing than running. like writing or reading or listening to music or doing homework or talking to my monkey or just about anything you can imagine. the problem is not that we want to be thin. the problem is that you think we should be thin, and therefore treat us differently, as though we are inferior.

explain to me the concept of "gross," please. for instance, some countries don't use deodorant, and they don't think they're gross. they think we stink. we think they're gross cos we were taught that they were. it's like shaving your legs or pits. . . our culture is different in some regards. but simply because i'm fat or hairy doesn't make me inferior. just different. so leave me the fuck alone, huh? why does everyone feel the need to knock people down when they try to empower themselves? i just don't understand people sometimes. . . yeah, great, thinner, i'm happy if you accept your body and are thin. more power to you. but recognize that i'm happy being fat, and i don't need you or anyone else to tell me how to live my life. i just need people like you to quit treating me like shit and making me feel guilty for being alive.

to everyone who has been honest on this thread, i love you. you're incredible. also, an important part of loving yourself is accepting a realistic self-image. don't imagine what you would be like if you were skinny. know that you're beautiful RIGHT NOW. because you are. . .

Reply from: kristen w. on 12/13/98 at 6:52PM. elka!! i think "vacation" is my favorite go-gos song too, so i'll play it first if we can dance to it together. *hugs* to everyone who's posted here. i think we really do need a party.

xoxo kristen!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/13/98 at 9:15PM. toptoptop

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/13/98 at 9:34PM. I <3 STINKY WOMEN :D

Reply from: elka on 12/14/98 at 0:38AM. kristen, you're on, girl friend! *hippy hippy shake shake*

damn, i wish we were all neighbors...

Reply from: hannah on 12/14/98 at 0:44AM. some anon above me, blah: this isnt ignorance, this is real. this is the way we feel.

Reply from: x claire x on 12/14/98 at 7:09AM. toptoptoptoptortperot[pertorptortoprto[reptoepjsedlkgjd;lkbnjsdf

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/14/98 at 1:44PM. top

Reply from: kissingchaos on 12/14/98 at 1:46PM. the "An anonymous viewer on 12/13/98 at 3:43PM" was me. . . Oops :o)

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/14/98 at 6:36PM. I <3 STINKY WOMEN Oh that is so gross.

Reply from: Harry_Pits on 12/14/98 at 8:35PM. *waves her armpits at the previous anon* i stink in your general direction!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/14/98 at 9:19PM. toppers

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/14/98 at 11:19PM. Uh, you relate having hairy pits to stink? I got hairy pits, and I still hate stink. Fuck, when I go down, I want clean, good, freshness, not yuckiness. I like hair, I like sweat. I just dont like the smell created when bacteria grow and multiply on bodies. Cause believe me, Im a cunning linguist, and I need fresh breath.

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