Written by: lisa zeepp on 11/15/98 at 8:41PM.

what do you think?

Replies:

Reply from: dr thorndyke on 11/15/98 at 8:44PM. nope. :)

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/15/98 at 8:44PM. fuck no. has somebody told you otherwise?

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/15/98 at 8:44PM. i should be more specific, i guess.. i'm talking about riot grrrl meetings.. do you think it's fucked to have meetings for girls only?

Reply from: nurse diesel on 11/15/98 at 8:46PM. dr. richard harpo thorndyke! chat?

Reply from: dr thorndyke on 11/15/98 at 8:47PM. it's the least fucked up thing I can think of, lisa.

Reply from: janeeta on 11/15/98 at 8:53PM. i think it's a wonderful idea.

i know that a lot of times i need girl-only encounters. sometimes i'm uncomfortable even with brian around. he understands this. :)

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/15/98 at 8:58PM. this is great to hear. thanks.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/15/98 at 9:15PM. top

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/15/98 at 9:17PM. most certainly. (not meaning to sound repetitive). but there is absolutely nothing fucked up about needing some "safe" space to share with other girls. and the only person(s) that can determine what that is is you.

Reply from: agh your gonna jump down my throat on 11/15/98 at 9:22PM. yeah i think that girls only spaces are ok at TIMES>.. but i mean realistically you need to be able to go out on your own.. and there will be Men there... scary i know... but the only way to get strong is to face your fear. xoxo

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/15/98 at 9:33PM. and much of the time one will feel more confident on their own when they know deep down that they're not wrong for feeling the way they do.

Reply from: Evan on 11/15/98 at 9:34PM. sometimes even girl-only space doesnt feel safe.

Reply from: muffie on 11/15/98 at 9:40PM. girl-only spaces are very valid. i hate it when people say that they are "reverse sexist" or whatfucking ever. if it is offensive to someone for there to be girl-only spaces, then that someone needs to realize that girls need to feel solidarity and safety with other girls sometimes in order to reassure their validity b/c the "real world" wants to destroy them. but evan, i do agree that sometimes these spaces are not even safe feeling. that is when i try to look to myself for strength so i can make up for what i am not getting with the other girls. ahh, so enough therapist-muffie talk for the evening. la la la bye.

Reply from: nomy on 11/15/98 at 9:54PM. um, i agree with all the things that have been said, but i also think that girl-only space can be problematic when it comes to transgender stuff. like a lot of wimmin-only spaces don't allow mtf transexuals, say that they're not "real women" or whatever, and then also does girl only space include transexual men who are still a part of the dyke community? anyway, these are questions i've been struggling with lately... i'd be interested to know how other people have dealt with them. cuz things get tricky when you're talking about people who don't necessarily fit the definition of either male or female.

Reply from: LICKITE on 11/15/98 at 10:26PM. calling kat!!! where are ya for this one hon? my lil tryke:) love jen. p.s.- i haven't figured out this double vcr thang yet! grrr..

Reply from: muffie on 11/15/98 at 10:50PM. yes, i was also wondering how broad the definitions of "women-only" can allow for trans individuals: mtf and men that are part of the dyke community -- this is really important. cos girl-only is so limiting for one who is not a girl but not a boy necessarily either OR any trans individual. i think that it is important for girl-only spaces to redefine "girl" so that it is not only GIRL -- that is embraces others who are not necessarily BOY either. for sure.

Reply from: dr t on 11/15/98 at 11:08PM. nomy, I totally know what your saying. Gender is such a fucking complicated tricky thing to deal It's so ingrained in us that we can barely look outside of our perceptions of it. I mean, when talking about gender fluidity and how gender is all just socially constructed, it seems so weird that we even talk about things that are "male" or "female"... I wish we were past all of this gender seperatism.. but we arent. we are still in a society where people who are biologically male are taught the values of misogyny and sexism, and therefore the people who are going to be dangerous to women are men. grrl only space is a really important thing to have.

erf, I wanna write more but I'm really tired.. me post more tomorrrow!

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/15/98 at 11:28PM. yeah, what carly [dr. t] said.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/15/98 at 11:36PM. these boys aren't arguing that they're female.

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/15/98 at 11:37PM. well, what are they arguing?

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/15/98 at 11:43PM. i don't know. i've never met them. they've just shown some interest to a few members of the group. *shrug*

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/15/98 at 11:56PM. well, all i know is people feel things for a reason. so STAY STRONG! don't let anybody tell you that how you're feeling is stupid or wrong.

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/15/98 at 11:57PM. above poster = me

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 0:01AM. thanks, leah. :)

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/16/98 at 0:06AM. anytime.

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/16/98 at 0:07AM. *just realizing that what i said rhymed* heh

Reply from: shilo on 11/16/98 at 0:11AM. i think that girl-only space is a really good thing for many reasons. it creates solidarity, it takes the focus away from men, it forces girls to talk to other girls. it is very true that personal conflict and a general unease is something that sometimes happens, this conflict can be a good thing because this conflict happens in regular girls and boys life and we are socialized to know how to deal with that and with other genders. when there is conflict or unease in a girls only space, you are forced to learn how to deal with it, how to relate to other girls when you dont always argee or feel comfortable. my 2 cents. xx shilo

Reply from: gemma on 11/16/98 at 1:56AM. what i'm unclear of is how the focus is on men. in my relationship with my boy, when we see our friends(mostly boys), occasionally i feel as though i'm being made unvalid. the boys will talk, and occasionally i'll be pointed out rather like a doll on the shelf. for awhile i kept my mouth closed as i figured it was a natural thing for one sex to bond with each other. and then i realized that gender laws are all bull shit. i talked to steve first about how i felt, and got his reaction. he understood what i meant as he sometimes felt that i was thought of as a display girl for parties, and it bugged him as i'm not like that at all. so i started talking to the boys in the group, and they were really releived to have it put in words. and now these kids are some of the greatest people i know- they create a safe space for everyone and are cautious of feelings, regardless of gender.

my point here is, in mixing the two sexes, if done in a sensitive way, is also a valid method. i feel if we are to face and defeat our own prejudice and misundertanding of transgenderism, we have to look beyond gender. people within the groups need to be mature enough to adress how they feel honestly. when we start to think about things less in terms of boy/girl, we are helping ourselves understand transgenderism a little bit more by breaking gender identified ideas and feelings and terms. hearts, gemma

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/16/98 at 2:06AM. but some people don't transend gender.

Reply from: katiekaput on 11/16/98 at 4:41AM. riot grrrl glen ellyn and sort of riot grrrl chicago are grrrl-only. g.e. all the time, chicago most of the time. so there.:) and as far as transgender goes, r.g.g.e. is a space for grrrls. if you identify as a grrrl, yr welcome there. if you identify as anything else, we ask that you understand that we need our space to feel special as and connected to grrrls.:) lala. hugs and love forever, kat, just a tryke tryin' to have fun

Reply from: brock on 11/16/98 at 4:45AM. maybe i'm out of line, but would it be too much to have maybe a few meetings open to boys? like every other meeting or every third meeting? i don't know how most r.g. chapters operate, but maybe you could like let some supportive boys help you out on the biznessy end of things or something. i mean, don't get me wrong, i TOTALLY understand/support you all deciding to make spaces safe for girls. but i don't know how or why it would be a bad thing to make boy allies welcome every once in awhile. maybe that's just me. i'll shut up now.

Reply from: caseycultist on 11/16/98 at 6:18AM. girl-only spaces are valid and necessary. when men whine about reverse sexism it's just because a lot of men want to have a piece of themselves in everything and can't stand the thought of exclusion.

Reply from: brock on 11/16/98 at 6:35AM. i hope you don't think that my previous message was intended to be like that, caseycultist.

i don't know. i am the treasurer of the queer group at my school. our GLBT group is open to straight allies (and, as a matter of fact, 2 of the 5 executive staff members are straight) because we think that input from non-queers is helpful as well. but we also sponsor a queer-only discussion group. i think that works out well. i'm just saying, input from boy allies might be helpful to riot grrrl and i don't know what is accomplished by excluding boys totally.

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 11/16/98 at 7:34AM. I'm all for separatist space. More as a means than as an end...

It helps to be realistic about girl-only space, though. Much as I prefer being around mostly women spaces: 1) (as Evan mentioned) "safe" is a relative term and abusive females get away with far too much under the guise of 'safe space'; 2) it helps to define what you/your org. means by "girl" up front. A good vague definition is to say that you are open to "girls regardless of their birth gender," for example. This lets members know that if they have a problem w/it, maybe it's not the group for them.

Also, keep in mind that lots of women feel the need to have separatist space away from transexual women. You don't have to provide this yourself, or even agree with it... but if I'm going to enjoy my women-only spaces, I have to at some weird level respect other people's sep. spaces whether I like 'em or not.

What IS offensive to me is when sep. spaces are not up-front about their policies but still have assumptions. For instance, I'd feel a lot better about the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival if they changed their name to the Michigan Born-Female Music Festival, because the little unwritten subtitle of "no transexuals" says to me "we mean REAL women"--transwomen clearly don't make the organizer's definition of women--and that's needlessly insulting. Whereas the new name, well, it says it all and you can take it or leave it.

These are just thoughts on separatism, not nec. helpful on what you're looking for, lisa dahlink.

Reply from: jen h8 on 11/16/98 at 7:36AM. geez, why is it that i fall asleep so early and only lay eyes on this thread now ? when riot grrrl philadelphia first started off, one of the things that we fervently agreed upon was that we would be a woman-only space,, seeing that the group also included members of radical organizations, such as ACT UP, it went without question that mtfs would be allowed into the space as well. often times, the taste of autonomy that a women's-only space provides for women is so intoxicating, that it changes their outlook on life forever. even if it was that one tiny meeting in which you proposed an idea that was validated and acted upon. you were doing it without the aid of men. you're going to carry that with you for a while.

on the downside, i've had many an arguement about this. my former roommate and i actually ceased to speak due to a particuarly vicious arguement about women's only spaces. he refused to see how his views seemingly mirrored those of a little boy stomping his feet for not being allowed into the girl's only clubhouse. first he called me a "reverse sexist" (god, i love how pc men will throw that one at you in the blink of an eye) and, when i suggested he form an all-male feminist group (instead of sitting around whining) which could perhaps meet with an all women group and exchange ideas, he said "why should i ?" *!!!* guh, talk about wanting to have everything handed to you on a silver platter. the final staw came when he militantly proclaimed that women's only groups for RAPE SURVIVORS were reverse-sexist and that he should be allowed it, so that he "could learn". when i attempted to point out that women, after being viciously attacked by a man, might want a SAFE SPACE free of men, he said "well it wasn't my fault. if they hate all men because one man raped them, they're just sexist". AAAUUEEAAAH *!* and this all from a self proclaimed feminist *!*

on a happier note, some of the guys from philadelphia decided to form a group for feminist men, called "riot boy". they weren't being sarcastic, they were truly sincere in their intentions. i thought that that was pretty decent.

Reply from: fontanelle on 11/16/98 at 8:26AM. this is going to sound whiney...but, i'm with brock on this one...i am physically male...i am happy with that...i do not think of myself in male terms...i do not identify with others of my own gender...i have few male freinds...i consider myself a riot grrrl...fear of the implications of girl only meetings is the reason i have not tried to start a riot grrrl chapter in columbia...i agree that girls/queers need a space in which they feel safe, and i question whether a group with a male founder would attract the people who need to be in the safe environment...i also fear that if meetings are gender-open, rude and ignorant people will attend and make the environment unsafe...i have no answers...i just want to be included

Reply from: Z on 11/16/98 at 8:41AM. Yeah, I'm with brock. Sometimes guys are enlightened enough to be able to trancend the societal pressures towards gender. Those people should have some chance to help out. But I completely understand the importance of girl only space. And if the guys who want to be a part are truly enlightened, they'll understand. (and if not you know you've just got a few guys looking to pick someone up. It's an easy way to make selection)

Reply from: um? on 11/16/98 at 9:20AM. okay...so how about FTM trannies? not being sarcastic, just wonderin'...

Reply from: witchbabee on 11/16/98 at 9:22AM. kathleen hanna said it best "EVERY space is a mens space!" whats the big deal with having a womens only space once in a while ?! --liz

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 11/16/98 at 11:11AM. The idea of boys calling themselves riot grrls and wanting to start up meetings cracks me up. Have you ever heard of the idea of standing back and letting girls take the lead?? It is a very, very basic concept. You are peripheral to the concept. Deal with it!

Now other kinds of movements--or starting new ones up that are not sex/gender-specific- is another matter.

Reply from: Maudita on 11/16/98 at 11:18AM. (BTW, if you i.d. and live as a girl 24/7, that's another matter to me altogether). I am still, however, waiting and hope to be a sidelines cheerleader for the femmy riot fag movement SISSYBITCH: The Band, The Gang, The Process.

Reply from: beth on 11/16/98 at 12:09PM. girls only spaces are so incredibly important i think, because like someone above me posted, there are no girls only spaces. and it is so powerful to create one. that "reverse discrimination" is bullshit. being with just a group of girls and concentrating only on girls & girl issues is extremely valid & it is necessary to "exclude"(if you will) boys. on the other hand i agree with brock that some meetings, like once a month or something should be open to boys. i mean, if you want anything to change, as far as sexism goes, you need to include boys because they (no i am not saying all of them, but some) are the ones who rape & harrass & abuse women & if we girls want any of that to change boys need to be included & made aware. otherwise the rape & harrassment & abuse will continue & no amount of girl-only spaces can make up for that.

Reply from: gemma on 11/16/98 at 12:25PM. the mor you include open minded boys, the more stand they take against sexism in all forms. my own boy gets down on people for those types of remarks, and in our group of friends it's building more. and so they will oppose what they hear from other people they meet, and it continues. shitty boys are outcasted. thats how it works. i think that it's a a social form of education, rather like no one plays with the bully.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 12:57PM. thanks for all the feedback, everyone.. i appreciate it.

alright, our group has already talked about the inclusion of transgendered people.. and everyone agreed that this was a good idea. everyone in the group was comfortable with this. we specifically spoke of "mtf" transsexuals, but we decided [i thought?] that anyone who has or does identify as female is more than welcome to come to meetings. this is what i thought we'd decided anyway, but now it seems that the exlusion of boys contradicts this. i don't understand how it does though. *shrug* i'm open to the occasional meeting with boys included, but i don't think that i can deal with it as a regular thing right now. not yet. and i don't really want to. i do believe that there are guys out there who are enlightened enough and i want them as allies.. but i also want my girl-only space. once a week. for a few hours. that's all i ask. fuck.

jen said: when i attempted to point out that women, after being viciously attacked by a man, might want a SAFE SPACE free of men, he said "well it wasn't my fault. if they hate all men because one man raped them, they're just sexist". AAAUUEEAAAH *!* and this all from a self proclaimed feminist *!*

this is one of the reasons i feel uncomfortable with this new move. no one has actually called me sexist for feeling this way yet, but.. i wonder if that's what they're thinking.. ?

Reply from: cherry bomb on 11/16/98 at 1:09PM. okay i'm the bad guy from rg brampton who feels that boys should be included in riot grrrl. i have to speak up for this because it's something that i inherently beleive.

i see riot grrrl as a vehicle for change and we need boy allies. if riot grrrl brampton isn't open to that i may form another group that is open to all feminists. i feel like a big bitch... like i'm not taking people's feelings into consideration but when we started riot grrrl brampton i don't think we ever talked about meetings be girl-only... maybe i'm forgetting something. but this makes me mad... it does because i've fought my whole life to desegrate sports teams even in grade 3...

seperation by gender bugs me.. it feels inherently wrong to me. i don't know... and then the argument that boys can't understand gives FUEL to the argument for not including trannies. and i think trannies should be included... and i think men should included if they choose.

i am no more comfortable discussing my problems with girls than boys... so what do we do with fuckheads like me?

this makes me mad because next thing i won't be allowed into anti-racist action groups because i'm white... or i'm not invited to GLBT meetings because i don't identify as anything... the only thing i've identified is that i like boys. so fuck me... where do i go? my race or sexuality has nothing to do with my ability to fight for equality, and a boys cock should have nothing to do with his ability to help ME fight for MY fucking rights.

b.t.w. for me i guess i don't see girls-only space as a RULE as much of a means to anything worthwhile... women have been fighting for years for equality... and we will never be completely equal until we end gender desegregation.. and even then we not be there yet... but THAT's the means to equality. in my humble opinion.

*waiting for EVERYONE to jump down my throat* xox angela

Reply from: Stew on 11/16/98 at 1:10PM. I totally support female-only spaces, but I also understand the feelings of some guys who want to be included. Especially "revolutionary feminist" guys like myself. I think the idea that came up here which would work the best for everybody would be to have a women/grrrls only space, but with occasional meetings with guys who want to help out...still maintaining female leadership though.

Reply from: cherry bomb on 11/16/98 at 1:13PM. is riot grrrl the right vehicle to provide everyone their girls-only space? shit... i feel like i'm big and mean and bad and i don't feel that way. i don't understand why i SHOULD... i'm tired of apologizing for fighting for this sort of thing...

it's obvious that i have other things in mind when i think about about riot grrrl... i don't think of it as my personal thing. this is for EVERYONE in the group... i'm feeling really horrible about all of this and right now i don't even want to go to the meeting tonight, or ever again right now. i want to give up. maybe i'll start a new group... i dunno. i'll probably end up going though.

angela

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 1:15PM. "mtf" transsexuals are not boys, angela. i don't understand what you're saying. maybe i'm missing your point. and you're not the bad guy. hush.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 1:18PM. aauuugh. this fucking sucks. can't we just have a discussion without feeling hurt and giving up on the group altogether?

i feel like shit.

Reply from: Maudita on 11/16/98 at 1:18PM. Allies are great, so be allies and stay out of the way! Sheesh. I'm a white jew, and while I support and attend and help organize anti-racist actions, I don't sit in on people-of-color support groups! There's a difference between taking part in *events* and wanting to be a core member of something that isn't fucking about YOU, know what I mean? Grrr.

Reply from: cherry bomb on 11/16/98 at 1:20PM. i know they're not boys. and i don't appreciate the way that was worded.. as if i don't know that.

however when i hear everyone's arguments about WHY boys shouldn't be included (for example they don't understand, they're threatening, they didn't grow up with our social conditioning/stigma/WHATEVER, etc.) those are the SAME arguments that people use for discluding trannies. i don't think those arguements hold any water for trannies or men.

i'm outta here.

Reply from: cherry bomb on 11/16/98 at 1:21PM. btw. just in case some people weren't clear: I AM A FUCKING GIRL! gone to lunch.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 1:24PM. i'm sorry you didn't appreciate the way it was worded, angela.. i just didn't understand what you were saying.

i don't want to argue about this anymore. this is really fucking upsetting.

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 11/16/98 at 1:31PM. I'm sorry this is upsetting you, Zeep. When you talk about issues, people are usually just going to not get each other and/or not agree. I think that's okay. (And hey, no one's made personal attacks and called each other names, whattya know?)

Cherry bomb--I didn't mean to say you're not a girl... I was just addressing riot-girl-id'd boys in the general sense.

This issue does frustrate me, because I come from this strong belief that respecting something doesn't nec. mean throwing yourself into it--esp. if that means taking it away from those I think are more entitled to it. Does that make sense? It's a matter of cultural appropriation.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 1:37PM. dev: i don't mind disagreeing or not being understood, because i'm all for talking about this until something is [hopefully] worked out.. what upsets me is that it seems like everyone is giving up. and that i want to do the same.

Reply from: katiekaput on 11/16/98 at 1:39PM. this isn't meant sarcastically, but i'm rilly feeling the need for some tryke-only space. now if only i knew other trykes... this sort of feels like the time when this grrrl e-mailed me and said, "if yr a biological female, i'd love to hear yr opinions on integrating trans*persons into feminist space." or something to that effect. i dunno why it feels like that... it just does. i hate this. i'm all for grrrl-only space, but it always seems like i end up locked on the outside of it. like identifying as a grrrl isn't enuff. excuse me for not being old enuff or rich enuff to get my surgery... and as far as "living as a female 24/7..." i've been doing that since the day i was born. why can't people understand that i didn't just wake up one morning and decide to be female? why can't people understand that i shouldn't have to "dress like" a grrrl to be considered one? they don't require that of themselves, usually. and this turned into my transsexual rant. i guess what i'm trying to say is i'm uncomfortable around nontrykes. which i guess makes me some sort of negative -ist type thing. oh well. lalala.--kat, w/hugs and love... unconditonally female, but somehow never measuring up.

Reply from: leahlocks on 11/16/98 at 1:45PM. i'm just going to stick with the argument i had before. and that is that everybody has the right to feel safe and comfortable. and what i really have a problem with is when people try to tell them they have no right to feel the way they do, and to have their doubts. in any situation. ~leah, the broken record.

Reply from: Maudita on 11/16/98 at 2:04PM. Katiekaput--hell yeah, girl, get some tryke-only space! Or at least a trans support group. A lot easier when you have mobility and are somewhere like sf, I know...

Anyways, kp--by "living as a girl 24/7" I simplified something really complex, I know. I was trying to differentiate between boys/men who i.d. as riot grrls, and, well, grrls who fucking live it round the clock. I know you have always grown up knowing you were female, despite how other people tried to force you to be. Also, though, I would guess that you living as a female 24/7 NOW as a cognizant person who stands up for yourself and DEMANDS others to see you for who you are is a somewhat different existence than it was before, no? Does that make sense (I think I'm getting offtrack)? Also, please don't forget that there are many transwomen who certainly did live a good chunk of their lives living the lie, and who differentiate between their lives being a girl while treated as a boy, and their lives as the women they have become. Sorry if I'm making no sense...

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 2:14PM. kat, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting some tryke-only space.. i don't think that you makes a negative -ist anything. dammit, i need to call you again sometime. soon. *hugs*

Reply from: katiekaput on 11/16/98 at 2:17PM. yes, you must, lisa. lala. i always want things that won't happen though. and i'll write more later, but now i hafta go. poop.- kat

Reply from: jesse on 11/16/98 at 2:20PM. in college i was in this group called the feminist collective. it originated as co-ed. eventually the girls wanted girl only meetings (this was mainly spurred on by the lesbian seps.). they did it once a month. at the time i totally disagreed b/c it looked like a support group to me and i felt it was saying i wasn't strong enough to say what i wanted in front of males. i never went to the girl-only meetings. even our women's sexuality workshop included guys up until a certain point. anyway, my opinions eventually changed. and the point was the once a month all female meeting worked for us. (i was the only girl that stopped going and the guys didn't mind at all.) just an fyi.

Reply from: purrgrrl on 11/16/98 at 2:35PM. i'm sooooo glad this post came up. i am on the eve of setting up a group here in sydney. i was initially gonna start a riot grrl chapter, but spoke to the girls i wanted to involve, and most were saying "girl run, boy inclusive". so thats the way its gonna go. we'll see how it works. we are gonna have lotsa workshops (art, cooking music, herbal) and put on events (i have been doing events for some years, but this city has become more hostile to innovative entertainment. now i need help). but i think grrl spaces rule. i think i would probably have some grrl only meets/workshops...

some info from down under: in the last month, the lesbian space here in sydney recently changed its constitution to include transgendered ladies! hooray! but of course, its kinda controversial in the communtiy. basically, the executive at the time of the vote was in favour of it, so it got thru the vote.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/16/98 at 2:37PM. sounds great, but wouldn't a girl run/boy inclusive group run into hierarchy problems?

Reply from: KF on 11/16/98 at 2:48PM. i think it's easier to say that you want riot grrl to be inclusive of boys when you don't feel like you need grrl only space.. that's what I'm getting from what angela said. that she doesn't feel that it's nessicary for her. but it really is for other grrls.. I mean, just look at all the grrls who've psted here talking abuot how important grrl only space is for them. I don't see how it sets feminism or gender equality debates back by having women only space to feel safe in and talk about issues that directly effect you without having to explain why or how to someone who doesn't understand. and yeah boys dont understand a lot of issues that women have. And I don't think there's anything wrong with having your own space with people who understand you. I think allies are super important, but being an ally doesn't nessicarily being part of the core group, like devra said. I think a lot of people start talking about how allies should be included because they want to help and understand, are people who feel this way themselves and who feel excluded. but when it comes to these allies being boys, white people, straights, ect, they need to think about how these opressed groups that they are supporting are excluded every day of their lives in this white straight hetero rich world we live in. these allies need to understand that what they are feeling is what other people feel all the time and doesn't even scratch the surface... ahh I'm just rambling.

Reply from: purrgrrl on 11/16/98 at 2:56PM. anon 2.37: yep, probably. we are still trying to work this out. we hope to be up and running in the new year, but i hafta nut out all these details. we'll get there...

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 2:57PM. i love you, dorkface.

Reply from: taylor k on 11/16/98 at 6:44PM. okay I've read over this whole post thoroughly and I came up with this happy medium that I hope works. what I was thinking was that a riot grrrl chapter is basically a community of people, and as a community people get to know eachother and eventually they feel comfortable around eachother. I think if the girls in the community, in the beginning, express a wish for girl only space, then they should have it, but I think as people get to know eachother more, some girls might feel okay about letting some of the guys in the group sit in on one of the girl only meetings. and some situations there might be exceptions, for example, if a girl comes to a riot grrrl meeting not knowing anyone and she brought her best friend, who happens to be a guy, and the girl didn't know that this was an all girl meeting, and the girl wanted to share with the group about her rape or abuse and wanted her friend to be there, who might've helped her build up the courage to come to the meeting in the first place or something like that. I don't know if I'm writing this in an incredibly well organized form but, would you turn the guy away from the meeting, even if the girl really wanted him to be there as she told her story, just because it had been predetermined earlier that this was going to be an all girl meeting? I don't know if I'm making any sense, but what I'm trying to say is, there should be exceptions. and the guys shouldnt be completely excluded by the all girl meetings, maybe, if the girls are comfortable, they could inform the guys on a few of the things they went over at the all girl meeting, not revealing anything expressed in confidentiality of course, but just letting the guys know what kind of issues were addressed, if everyone feels comfortable about that. I know that having a girl only space is very very very very very important, but there's no sense in excluding boys from riot grrrl who honestly want to help out. I think a very important part of being a community is working together for the purpose of furthering a cause, and that should be recognized just as much as the need for girl only space.

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 11/16/98 at 7:25PM. Every time I see the title of this thread on the main message board, I keep thinking it's gonna say: there anything wrong with wanting some girl-on-girl action?" Back to our regularly scheduled debate...

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/16/98 at 8:53PM. hey, thanks to everyone who's responded.. i appreciate it.

*LOL* devra! i thought the same thing!!! i'm all for girl-on-girl action.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/16/98 at 10:11PM. top

Reply from: Apathetic Dreamscape on 11/16/98 at 10:35PM. I just wanted to say that as far as grrl-only space is concerned, I think it's a good thing. I attend Mount Holyoke College, there are no guys, it's super and I love it, I think I'll deal just fine in the real world, I did for 18 years before I came here, and its cool to have that happy medium.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/16/98 at 11:44PM. where's Brian Crabtree? i'd like to hear what he thinks.

Reply from: dr t on 11/17/98 at 1:15AM. devra, I thought the exact same thing.. hehehehe. :)

lisa, lots of dorkface love comin your way!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/17/98 at 3:21AM. haha i always think it says "girl-on-girl action" too! strange...

Reply from: jen h8 on 11/17/98 at 7:59AM. heh, at first i thought it was simply Girl-On and i was thinking hm, a strap on thread *!* alright, i'm lame, please continue.

xo jen

Reply from: fontanelle on 11/17/98 at 8:09AM. maudesquad...if the girls are too apathetic to start something, as they are in my area, then why shouldn't a boy try?

Reply from: nikki on 11/17/98 at 8:19AM. haha jen, i was thinking the same thing!

on topic, i think it's important to have some sort of girl-only space to have a forum to discuss issues that don't really apply to guys. so yes, i think it's good.

Reply from: MaudeSquad on 11/17/98 at 8:51AM. Fontanelle -if there aren't a bunch of girls taking the lead and organizing riot grrl where you live, that's probably saying something. You taking the lead isn't the answer, it's more of the same--hardly a revolutionary dynamic. Girls doing for them(our)selves diy-style is SUCH a big tenet of riot grrl! Movements change, but I can't imagine riot grrl anything bypassing this really basic principal.

However, I think it's a great idea if you start up some other in-your-face action group, where one of the things bringing everyone together is the priority of combatting misogyny (and whatever else you have in common you want to target).

Reply from: caseycultist on 11/17/98 at 8:56AM. this issue hasn't really come up at riot grrrl dc yet, even though meetings are at my house and my husband is usually somewhere in the house. but this is how i feel- in riot grrrl there is definitely an aching need for girl only space. we need it, we want it. but if there are boys who want to be allies, we can definitely include them in some things. they can help in our creative projects, etc. my point is that they can be involved, but not necessarily in every aspect. and i feel that any boy who is truly our ally will understand and respect that. i know that if a "riot boy" kind of thing started here, a men's anti-sexist action group, i'd definitely want to be involved. i'd want to help and support. but i would understand why they wanted some male-only meetings. there might be some feelings they would feel uncomfortable or maybe even guilty with that they need to work through, but might feel too awkward discussing around girls. and that is valid. i don't think there is a need to create some arbitrary rule "NO BOYS ALLOWED EVER." we can take cases as they come.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/17/98 at 1:42PM. top

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/17/98 at 1:47PM. well, i was voted down. yippee. shit, i didn't even realize we were voting.. ? i guess when one of the other members is the "minority" and scared out of their fucking mind, they'll understand how it feels to have your unpopular opinion ignored.

to be fair, we did eventually come to a compromise. we're going to have occasional open meetings. [i'm okay with that.] if i can't deal, i don't show.

*shove shove shove*

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 11/17/98 at 2:06PM. i just got a few e-mails from other members of the group. i feel alot better. it seems there's been some miscommunication.

this is going to be worked out. even if it kills me! [well, not really, but.. uh, yeah. :)]

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 11/17/98 at 8:58PM. :(

Reply from: Sara Wednesday on 11/17/98 at 9:24PM. Um... what Casey said. :)

I was going to post about this yesterday or the day before, but I was at a loss for words... Like Casey said, this issue hasn't come up at RGDC meetings. If it did, I'm not sure where I would stand. I think it's important to have boy allies in something like Riot Grrrl - boys who support the ideas and actions. If there are cool, mature guys who want to attend some meetings, I would be okay with it. But, I agree that it's important to have girl-only space. So much in society is male-dominated and caters to men -- having female-dominated things isn't reverse-sexist, it's an attempt to even the score. Plus, it's really revolutionary when women get together and work together to get something accomplished because society tries very hard to pit women against each other... Basically, Casey summed it up nicely. :) ox, Sara

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 11/17/98 at 10:55PM. Someone actually *wants* my opinion? wow.

girl/queer/whatever space is fine with me. Obviously, I can't be a part of it, but I recognize its value.

Sure, it excludes people. But that's okay sometimes. Sometimes there are more important things than making sure the boys are happy.

On a similar note, I'm not opposed to lesbian/feminist separatism. Sure, it could be called escapist... But it's a perfectly legitimate response to male aggression. And if men were being universally treated the way women are being treated, and we hadn't been conditioned to accept it as nature, it would be fucking world war III. Either that, or *we'd* all run away.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 11/17/98 at 10:58PM. Gemma, what you said was beautiful. Thanks.

Reply from: starkid on 11/17/98 at 11:04PM. girl-only space is often good in the sense that for most girls it provides a comfort zone, a safe place to talk about issues they may not feel comfortable talking about in front of boys. but sometimes certain things aren't comfortable to talk about in front of either sex, even tho it may be something that occurs often. it all depends on you. but wouldn't it be great to break the boundaries that divide gender and unite on a common ground that can provide a safe place for all topics, no matter what sex.

Reply from: Q-Tip on 11/17/98 at 11:34PM. Okay. I really have told this to too many people, but quite honestly, I don't feel like I'm a woman, or a man.. Where do I fit?

I've been raised 'girl', and being socialized in that manner has really fucked with me, it's prevented a large part of who I am as a person from developing. Lately, I've come to the conclusion that gender does not exist. It's all socialization. Unfortunatly, society doesn't let you do this. Gender is enforced, a legal and social institution, and they'd fight to the death to keep it in existance. Because of the way I feel, I'm not comfortable being part of a group that is based in the bi polar gender system(even though I go to a woman's college). This does not mean, however, that the socialization that we all under-go suddenly disappears cuz *I* don't agree with it. I understand the need that some women feel for all-girl spaces. I definatly do. What I personally have come to the conclusion of is that I do not have a problem with men. Not at all. What I have a problem with is male priveledge. I have a problem with the way 'men' are socialized, and the power(to misuse) that they are given in this society. Because of this some men do make me very uncomfortable, I don't like some of them, and I wouldn't want a bunch of frat boys at the lesbian trans avengers meeting. Where I feel safe is in all *queer* spaces. Spaces where I know that everyone there is either queer or supportive of queers and I can be myself there, without the threat of being thrown out by the gender police. This makes me a bit confused on the women-only space issue. I don't agree with it in the way that it doesn't match up to my beliefs, but at the same time I understand the need for safety. I cannot, with my concience, be a part of a group that is based on bi-polar gender assignments, but I don't think the problems with gender are gonna go away in any short period of time, and until then there has to be safe spaces. Anyway, I don't know, I was a part of a RG chapter that had no problem with allowing men, and it never bothered me or anyone else. They were not part of the core of the group, but they were allowed to come and support. I think dismanlting the things that cause women to want girl-only spaces is the goal here.. So do what gives you strength, weather that be 'girls only' or 'queers only', but always leave your mind open.. Okay, that's my 2 cents, hope it made sense to someone:) I've just begun to really think about and examine this, so forgive me if my thoughts are a little scattered and disorganized.

billy

Reply from: Q-Tip on 11/18/98 at 0:18AM. Okay, been thinking. The women's colleges thread made me stop fer a second and re-process. When I said earlier that I could not be part of a group that was based on a bi-polar gender system.. well, no, I take that back. I'm now relating my women's college experience to this RG women-only thing. And I do understand. I feel more comfortable in this all-woman space, and I would fight if they tried to make this school co-ed. I guess it ties back to what I said about male-privledge and how that affects 'male's' and how they relate to women and social situtaions (like classrooms or organizations).. I don't agree with dividing along lines of supposed gender, but with the way this society is set up, it is neccisary for some women to have a safe space to feel comfortable enough to talk, bond, and grow, without living in fear, or being belittled. I honestly, more often than not, feel uncomfortable around men (not ftms, or mtfs, or other queer people) because of they way they act and realte.. I was in a play where the cast was all women except for one small male role. It took us forever to find a male actor, and before we did it was a total comfortable cast-bonding space. When the male actor first came to rehersal I noticed an immediate change. We were no longer as close-knit/bonded as we had been ealier. This male actor seemed to take up so much space. The director treated him differently, gave him more attention, didn't scrutinize him ever, no notes on acting or comments on anything like he'd given us on a very regular basis. He would have never scolded this male actor for not memorizing his lines(which he didn't until the day before we opened). Every woman in the cast seemed to get smaller, and quieter, and more uncomfortable feeling when he was there, like the spotlight was on him, and he did stupid things all the time to get attention. It just fully illustrated to me why it was that I feel so comfortable around queers and females(I actually do feel uncomfortable around homophobic women, even though they are 'women', no suprise).. Anyway, we rambling again, this issue is very complex and very thought provoking..

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