title: male feminists?

Replies:

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/12/98 at 5:39PM. A guy who thinks he can pick up chicks by playing the part of the riot boy.

Reply from: pixigrrrl on 8/12/98 at 6:04PM. Oh for fek's sake...........my best friend Mike is a "Male Feminist" he is VERY involved in the Womans movement, NOT to meet girls, or get laid, he truly is concerned with Women's rights and Womens health issues. He protests, he werks for non-profit Women's organizations, and does a lot more in the Women's movement that a lot of women I know. I wish people would stop being so judgemental here.

Reply from: PunkGirlie on 8/12/98 at 6:11PM. I love male feminists

Reply from: kate cooties on 8/12/98 at 6:16PM. pixi, while there are exceptions to the rule -- as you believe your friend mike to be -- The Rule, in this case, is that most boys who claim feminism to be in their blood don't have much more of a clue than our favorite chauvinists. most of the people who post to chainsaw come from the punk & hardcore & riot grrrl scenes. we've all seen plenty of 'feminist' boys who rape, belittle women, verbally abuse us, play victim-blaming games, notch their bedposts to count their seductions of girl scenesters & zinesters, or at best, think that being a 'feminist' means protecting us from the big-bad-world, and thusly, their attempts to keep us living like we're their little daughters is in our best interest. forgive me if i'm a *little* jaded. incidentally, to the first poster, the word "feminist" has no gender connotations as to who the feminist is. it does not automatically imply that the person referred to is a woman: only a person who believes in the equal rights of all genders. "male feminist" isn't an oxymoron. < bitter jab> (in theory.)< /bitter jab>

Reply from: 5:17 on 8/12/98 at 7:14PM. perhaps i'm setting myself up... but i consider myself a "male feminist." Mainly it has to do (with me, anyway) with recognizing oppressive structures. I've had to deal with the feminazi's as well as the pseudo-feminist, and i'm positive i don't agree with all forms of feminism. but, i'm a little jaded myself with the whole issue of activism and have been out of that form of protest for a few years. (i don't have a bedpost either, just a futon, which i've shared with a very lovely feminist girl for a few years now.)

Reply from: caseycultist on 8/12/98 at 7:30PM. my ex-husband tried to come off as a feminist. mm-hm. whatever. "i'm a feminist, now give me your entire fucking paycheck."

Reply from: nikki monster on 8/12/98 at 8:59PM. it seems like some of the responses to the anon. are kind of alienating to boys. there's no reason why males should be excluded from feminism. an ex of my considered himself ot be a feminist. he also raped me. no, i don't believe that he is/was a feminist. this does not go for all males.

Reply from: om3ga on 8/12/98 at 9:00PM. i consider myself a feminist. i get tons of shit about it - either people i know or don't know, whether me personally or generalized statements. i was raised a feminist based on my mother's experiences (an abusive ex-husband and an oppressive, sexist workplace). yes, i understand there are men who claim themselves to be feminist and who rape, abuse, belittle, etc. women. but part of feminism, as i was led to believe, was to take action. i don't mean standing up for and in place of (or protecting, or any of that other "you will always need my help" bullshit) women. if one reacts to something, be it positively or negatively, one should do something about it. i also realize that there are some people who either feel uucomfortable or for some other seemingly legitimate reason cannot do this. i guess what comes to mind the most is an article i read in profane existence ("a message to 'anarchist' men, and then some" by molly tov"). she describes some men who claim themselves to be "anti-sexist" but still rape or "let someone else's sexist remark...slide when around his not so 'p.c.' friends." she also suggests "men start working on their shit". so what are we supposed to do, exactly? that's what i want to know. i don't use sexist language. i confront sexism when i feel *i am (not necessarily physically) strong enough* to. i work with the women's center on campus but to the extent they want me to. someone tell me. please. i could get into bob black's response to this article, but seeing as this board isn't explicitly anarchist, i'll hold off for the moment. oh, and both of these articles are available on spunk press's website (http://www.spunk.org).

Reply from: jeff on 8/12/98 at 9:58PM. i consider my self a feminist boy. to me, it means being consious of a)my own privige as a male b)respecting other regardless of gender c)combating expectied roles and mind sets which are based soly on my gender. that is not to say i am always sucessfull. i do let comments "slip by," and i hate myself because of it. because i dont have the strength to stand up to ppl who say things that hurt. because my fear of conflict restrains my outrage. i prolly have more to say, but im not in the mood to write right now. maybe ill post more later.

Reply from: fern- on 8/13/98 at 0:12AM. ive met a few male feminists. and no one is perfect at what they do or believe. even girls. ive met a few males who concider themselves feminist who have commited sexist faux pauxs. nothing like rape and the like, that is a different subject. and im sure theres plenty of women claiming feminism who have not a clue. and i have read those articles omega! i have them up on my page. and all i can say, in answer to your guestion is, dont feel guilty, dont give up, dont act up, and stick to what you believe is right. guilt is the last thing you will need, not to say you feel guilty. but you probably know how that is. shrug. i think male feminists set a good example. if your shooting for equality, you have to include everyone. but i was just thinking, arent there signs that a boy who says hes feminist really isnt? just faking, pretending, or really has no clue. clues like how they include or exclude girls from important conversations, or something like that. i know it to be somewhat true. just wondering what others had to say?

Reply from: om3ga on 8/13/98 at 0:34AM. i think lots of times when guys exclude girls from conversations (at least guys who claim to be and are feminist) it's not intentional... at least in some of the cases i've seen... oh, and i don't really feel guilty, basically my "what am i supposed to do?" question was in response to molly tov's statement that "men are should work on their shit" comment.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 0:40AM. yeah. i really dont know. you probably know all the expected modes of behavior and thought. some people dont.

Reply from: gemma on 8/13/98 at 2:56AM. well, to me, a feminist is someone who works for equality and whom (actively) cares for women's rights. i've met boys who would all themselves "feminists" but it's of the bubblegum and cigarrette butt mtv kind. that's the only way i can describe. but there are also boys who have huge solidarity in the movement, more so than some women. i will never exlcude boys/men from my life becuase i dont want to, but i do exclude dumb asses on contact. and there are still boys in my life soo.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 7:15AM. i gave the first

Reply... i'm sure that there are men who are truly interested in "feminism" (whatever that means - the word is so misused and abstracted that it's hard to label yourself as a feminist without setting yourself up to all sorts of positive and negative backlash). i guess in my experience in the punk/hardcore/emo/riot grrl scene, there have just been a lot of pretentious assholes who think that as soon as they mention women's rights they're admitted into some sort of club or something (one that undoubtedly involves sex - after all, us new skool feminists are all about "giving it up"). too bad a few bad seeds had to ruin it (in my jaded eyes) for the good guys.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 10:45AM. This whole thing is stupid and sexist. It was sexist in the first place to even say "male" feminist. Activism is gender blind so there is no such thing as what a "male feminist" can be. And so what if there were some bad seeds, there are good and bad people in every group. There are some males who consier themselves feminists and just that, without the prefix. Feminism is about (but not limited to) breaking down gender barriers and roles, it is not some kind of women only exclussive club.

Reply from: sexkitten66 on 8/13/98 at 12:52PM. Because feminism and queer rights are so closely linked sometimes, i feel it is crucial for feminists/queers to stick together. I believe in equality for women and do all sorts of things to help them out like take them to get an abortion if they have nobody they can trust (even girls i don't know) but i don't want brownie points or anything and i don't claim to know what it is like to be a woman either, i just believe it is the right thing to do cuz they are still treated like shit no matter how much things have gotten better. the point is, being a gay male, i am not in it "ta get chicks" i feel compelled to do the right thing. (sorry how retarded i sound, it is still too early for me to try to organize thoughts).

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 3:43PM. Ted Bundy worked at a crisis clinic for years, I am just throwing this in for fire.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 5:54PM. And he only molested boys if I am not mistaken, and as far as I know the only people he killed where boys so I doubt he was doing anything at a crisis center to attrack women.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 6:00PM. "The Rule, in this case, is that most boys who claim feminism to be in their blood don't have much more of a clue than our favorite chauvinists." (<-- That was sexist) "most of the people who post to chainsaw come from the punk & hardcore & riot grrrl scenes. we've all seen plenty of 'feminist' boys who rape, belittle women, verbally abuse us, play victim-blaming games, notch their bedposts to count their seductions of girl scenesters & zinesters, or at best, think that being a 'feminist' means protecting us from the big-bad world, and thusly, their attempts to keep us living like we're their little daughters is in our best interest." (<-- that is first of all assuming. And we all know what happens when we assume. And it is also sexist because it makes so many assumsions.)

Reply from: kate cooties on 8/13/98 at 6:41PM. #1) Ted Bundy killed dozens of women. he claimed to have killed hundreds, and it's entirely plausible. he preyed upon young, attractive women because it gave him a sense of power & prowess. never, have i heard a thing about Bundy attacking or molesting boys. he most certainly a het, who got off sexually by hurting & killing women. #2) that most chainsawer's come from backgrounds in the punk/riotgrrrl/hardcore scenes is a pretty safe assumption to make considering that chainsaw itself is a queercore label. this place would definitely fit my definitions of punk and riot grrrl. also, read some threads: just about everyone in here has knowledge of & either enthusiasm for or bitterness about the punkrock, emo, hardcore or riot grrrl & queercore scenes -- all of which means they've been part of it or been close enough to it to form those opinions. i rest my case. as for my oh-so-sexist remarks... live my life. live the lives of damn near any woman who participates/participated in the scene. they're warranted.

Reply from: 5:17 on 8/13/98 at 7:44PM. "most of the people who post to chainsaw come from the punk & hardcore & riot grrrl scenes. we've all seen plenty of 'feminist' boys who rape, belittle women, verbally abuse us, play victim-blaming games, notch their bedposts to count their seductions of girl scenesters & zinesters, or at best, think that being a 'feminist' means protecting us from the big-bad-world, and thusly, their attempts to keep us living like we're their little daughters is in our best interest." (<-- that is first of all assuming. And we all know what happens when we assume. And it is also sexist because it makes so many assumsions.) to anon, i don't think it's sexist at all. in fact, it's sadly true. And, about the 'feminism'=protecting women from the big-bad-world, that is totally true!! The people I work with think that it's about giving women the same jobs as men, and it ends there. feminism can surely be helped by men, but it's not something men can "give" to women.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/13/98 at 7:50PM. *watching 5:17 jump through kates hoops like a good doggy*

Reply from: 5:17 on 8/16/98 at 7:59PM. well anon, an amusing post. but, just for the record. I certainly don't share alot of Kate's views, but I've at least seen well thought out responses. In fact, I've argued against Kate on certain subjects (her pro-porn stance being one of them), however, I hate it when people shit-talk. If you want to attack someone, at least attack their ideas... *yawn*

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/16/98 at 8:20PM. "they're warranted." (<------ spoken like a true sexist Kate. Trying to make excuses and some how justify your own sexism.) No sexism is "warranted". Thats like saying rasism is warranted for whatever reason. Making assumtion upon an entire sex based upon the actions on selected individuals is sexist. And that is wrong. Tht would be like me thinking all girls are sexist because you are.

Reply from: Gepetto on 8/16/98 at 8:39PM. Someone once said to me "not all feminists are humanitarians, but all humanitarians are feminists". So yes I am a Male Feminist then. I think feminism means "equal rights for women". And I think women should have equal rights so I guess that is what a "male feminist" is. I don't think you have to be female to be a feminist though because thats kind of the impression that I got from the original message.

Reply from: kate cooties on 8/17/98 at 4:59AM. anon, yes, making assumptions about an entire gender is wrong. BUT in my experiences, and the experiences of the vast majority of the women i know, those assumptions are warranted. another problem that you fail to address is the fact that, in this case, my "sexism" is a matter of self-preservation. you see, when men are sexist, they actively hurt women. as women are being "sexist" it's a matter of protecting ourselves from predators: this may hurt a male's feelings, but if he is truly a feminist and therefore concerned with what is best for us, then he will understand and make an effort to prove that he is not like that. Myth: Men's Reality = Women's Reality Fact: "Why are you afraid of women?" I asked a group of men. "We're afraid they'll laugh at us,"

Replied the men. "Why are you afraid of men?" I asked a group of women. "We're afraid they'll kill us,"

Replied the women. -- Margaret Atwood. --

Reply from: Tim on 8/17/98 at 5:18AM. While I agree with some of what you say, Kate (the notion of different levels of reality is so true - it's like people I know who insist that attacking heterosexuality (as opposed to heterosexuals) is just as bad as attacking homosexuality - well, if someone yells 'breeder' at someone, no-one materializes from alleys and beats the hell out of them, do they? Whereas calling someone a 'faggot' or 'dyke' can lead to violence...the Atwood quote is good, though I might add that my sister fairly regularly beat me up as a child, so it's not as though I have no reason to fear women...and men (not entirely unaware of their tendencies to rape and brutalize, though I don't think it has as much to do with the fact of their maleness as their position of power)...but I don't allow that fear to paralyze me...), I must say that I do not know any men like you have described in my personal life (admittedly, most of the men I know are queer, and thus, no matter what Andrea Dworkin says, have very little stake in oppressing or controlling women, but it's not true of the straights I know...perhaps it's unconscious selection on my part...).

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/17/98 at 6:25AM. Tim: "though I don't think it has as much to do with the fact of their maleness as their position of power" That's an interesting distinction that I don't quite catch. Could you explain that? Kate -- I like your last post.

Reply from: walker on 8/17/98 at 10:05AM. some books have been written on this issue which you may find interesting or informative: "Refusing to be a Man" and another more recent book(the name escapes me) - John Stoltenberg and Stopping Rape (A Challenge for Men) - Rus Ervin Funk

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/17/98 at 1:50PM. This thread seems to be thinking that all men have the potential to rape or have raped or will rape or will brutilize or degrade. Well not all of them do, not even the majority, only the sick ones do, such as not all women kill their baby's after they are born, just the ones that have the disorder (whatever it is...I just saw this really interesting thing on channel 12 about it cause some local woman killed 8 of her ten children or something like that and the other 2 died at the hospital). And Kate my dear, you have some real issues I think. When women are sexist they arn't protecting themselves. Being a sexist is wrong, you said it yourself. When they protect themselves, via means of self defense or when they know someone will do them harm is protecting themselves but sexism only works againt you. How can you say it is ok for women to be sexist? What kind of feminist can you be if you can say "women are exempt from being bad sexist" or "I am allowed to be a sexist, because I am a woman"? That is creating a double standard, the kind of double standard feminism was in part, designed to fight against. Women are not exempt from being sexist. No excuse in the world can make sexism right.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/17/98 at 6:07PM. "Well not all of them do, not even the majority, only the sick ones do," That's a dangerous perspective. And misguided. Rapists aren't "only the sick ones." They're your friend, your fraternity brother, your uncle, your son. One in twelve college men admit to behavior which meets legal definitions of rape. And studies show that psychologically, they're no different from you, or I, or any other "normal" man. It's the entire culture that's sick. "only the sick ones" degrade women? Come visit my dorm. Hell, just try to get out a little more.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/17/98 at 9:35PM. So you have the potential to rape Brian? You have thought about doing it? You can see yourself soing it? I don't think you can Brian. Anyone who would rape someone is sick, and if One in 12 are sick that isn't the majority is it?

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/17/98 at 10:35PM. I'm subject to the same social conditioning all men in this culture are subject too. And I won't pretend that it has no effect on me. It's something I have to deal with every day. It's not really an issue of "can you" or "would you". *No*, I wouldn't. I really terribly hope I couldn't. Most rapists don't believe they've committed rape; they think it was consensual sex. Men have been trained to ignore women's consent. We're also raised in a culture of eroticized pain and humiliation, and we assimilate that into our sexual tastes. This has an effect on me, as well as every man in our culture. Pretending otherwise does nothing to help you fight these tendencies, it simply satiates your conscience. If you're saying that rapists are "sick" meaning that they're disgusting, contemptible vermin who deserve to be castrated, I'm right there with you. But if you're saying that they're "sick," meaning that they're mentally ill, psychopathic, or maladjusted... You're buying into a lot of very detrimental myths. They're not freaks or lunatics; they're in lock step with the rest of the culture. It's the culture that has to change, and that means *men* have to change. You and I. Not just the "bad" men, or what you call the "sick" men. The enemies aren't all dark strangers lurking in alleys, or religious terrorists, or any other external forces you can fight with signs and marches. A lot of them are in your head. Being a male feminist is about realizing that. And dealing with it.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/17/98 at 10:41PM. I don't have to deal with anything. I do consider conscent when it comes to having sex. I don't assimilate pain or embarrisment in my sexual tastes. Men arn't evil. Rapists are evil...and women have raped, it is rare but it has happened so it isn't even a male only disorder. Men who would rape are mentally different. They do have mental problems...they are the one's with the problem not all men. Not all men are the same. That was sexist of you to say. Rapist are evil men are not. Not all men are rapists.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/17/98 at 10:47PM. "Men have been trained to ignore women's consent. We're also raised in a culture of eroticized pain and humiliation, and we assimilate that into our sexual tastes. This has an effect on me, as well as every man in our culture. Pretending otherwise does nothing to help you fight these tendencies, it simply satiates your conscience." - So that means you think sinse society is forces these images down men's throats (which i don't really see but thats sort of off topic) that all men have these tendencies right? Does that mean all women have tendencies to be super thin, or be house wives, or be subservient, or that they have to have a man to make their lives complete? Or that homosexuals feel they have to be straight? I don't think so.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/17/98 at 10:58PM. Like... all the stuff I said, again. Apparently you still don't understand.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/17/98 at 11:03PM. "So that means you think sinse society is forces these images down men's throats (which i don't really see but thats sort of off topic)" It's not "off topic". It's precisely your problem.

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