Written by: poll on 10/21/98 at 4:55PM.

can you have both? or are they mutually exclusive? i am interested in hearing everybody's views on this.

Replies:

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 5:10PM. how can u hope to free yourself while refusing to recognise the oppression of others???

Reply from: miz_jenn on 10/21/98 at 5:27PM. i'm a feminist. i eat meat. i don't think these are mutually exclusive.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 10/21/98 at 5:54PM. Me too.

Reply from: esk on 10/21/98 at 5:55PM. *blink* for some reason i thought you were vegan, brian. anyways, i'm a feminist, and i occasionally eat meat.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 5:55PM. so then, is feminism an exclusive privilege that only applies to humans? is one form of opression okay while another isn't?

Reply from: gemma on 10/21/98 at 6:06PM. i'm veggie. i'm a "feminist". i think that they are related. it's about hurting/taking advantage of something because it's possible.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 6:19PM. I think you all need to be more sensitive to the feelings of vegetables. I wouldnt *think* of eating my trees, any more than a dog.

Reply from: kali on 10/21/98 at 6:21PM. i am a feminist and i eat meat. i dont think meat eating has anything to do with feminism; but i do wish i could become i vegetarian. i dont have enough will power. (yet)

Reply from: sassylassy on 10/21/98 at 6:24PM. last anon: if you're not eating meat, and you're not eating vegetables.. what in the hell are you eating???

Reply from: shilo on 10/21/98 at 6:30PM. i feel that it is not ok to eat meat and that meat eating does clash with feminism.. how you ask? because for the last million or so years, women have been treated with less respect than a *real* person (a man) for a long time women were thought to be incapable of rational thought, complex emotion or any sort of intelligence. we all know that is false and feminism has destroyed many of those myths. it is now uncommon for a woman to be thought of as a commodity. a women is no longer just a cook. no longer just a housecleaner, no longer just a wife, we are now people. anyways, i feel that to commodify any living being to to oppress them and being meat-free is an easy way to stop a bit of opression. animals are not born to die for me to eat they are born for them to live, just the same as i am not born to be some person's wife, i am born to be me. xx shilo

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 6:33PM. if you eat meat you are supporting the rape of female animals.

Reply from: kate cooties on 10/21/98 at 7:01PM. to the anon above me, it goes farther than that. if you eat dairy, or any animal product, you are supporting the rape of animals.

i think that people *can* be feminists without being vegetarians... but i think that those who recognize the interrelatedness of the systematic oppression of animal & human lives, and act upon it to stop that, have taken their feminism & their commitment to the rights of all a very important step forward.

people have different degrees of commitment to the cause (in this case, feminism), and i think that anyone who works towards feminism in any manner deserves some commendation -- but ultimately, no amount of lip service & feminist-oriented rhetoric is going to make as profound a change as the way one lives their life. veganism is extremely important.

Reply from: dark lady on 10/21/98 at 7:23PM. an interesting book on this topic is "the sexual politics of meat" by carol adams.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 10/21/98 at 7:23PM. wow. i was talking to some friends about this at the last rg brampton meeting. okay, i'm vegan and a feminist.. i recognize that all oppression is connected.. and with this awareness, could never feel right about eating meat/dairy/etc.. how could i ever feel right about myself supporting the oppression of animals, but fighting against the oppression of women? it just doesn't make sense to me. *shrug*

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 10/21/98 at 7:24PM. yeesh, that really wasn't well thought out, but.. you get the point, right? ugh.

Reply from: esk on 10/21/98 at 7:25PM. i don't think that eating meat is inherently wrong. circle of life and all that...but you've heard the argument and i don't feel like repeating it here. those who disagree will not be swayed by my clumsy words. i do try to avoid meat because i think that, for the most part, animals are treated cruelly in the production of meat for mass consumption. and it strikes me as being kind of creepy to eat meat from an animal that was killed anonymously, without me having to be at all personally involved in the taking of a sentient life.

Reply from: peesha on 10/21/98 at 7:27PM. I have one thing to say.Please read The Sexual Politics Of Eating Meat. Alas I have forgotten the author so I feel like a big weenie. The Author is female and from Garland Texas. The cover has a female sectioned off like a side of beef. It is an awesome book and I lent it out to someone and never got it back :(. --love alysia

Reply from: kate cooties on 10/21/98 at 7:29PM. in this culture, the "circle of life" argument is nul and void. that may hold true if you hunt/scavenge animals in the wilderness & utilize all parts of their bodies, give thanks to that animal, and whatnot, as some tribal people do... but there is *none* of that necessity and *none* of that reverence to use as an excuse for buying a packet of ground chuck at the corner market, or driving through a fast food window, or thawing out some frozen crab-cakes.

Reply from: esk on 10/21/98 at 7:29PM. uh, kate, did you read the rest of my message? that's exactly what i was trying to get across.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 7:31PM. this is so stupid...yeah sure female bovine are so oppressed. They are cows...cows and chickens and ANIMALS. You can be a feminist and eat meant. What a stupid thing to say. They are like interlocked or something. I can even believe you people think this way.

Reply from: missy on 10/21/98 at 7:43PM. what does meant taste like? sounds so dry. *wink* (^_-)

Reply from: esk on 10/21/98 at 8:25PM. top. KATE! :P (i so rarely get involved in discussions about vegetarianism/veganism and i hate to be misunderstood.)

Reply from: katia on 10/21/98 at 8:33PM. one problem i have with veganism is that people who say stuff like "go vegan or go fuck yourself", well-meaning as they may be, don't seem to realize that it's a privilege to be vegan in the first place. it's pretty hard to be vegan if you're on food stamps. it's pretty hard to be vegan if you're in prison.

in some ways, it's analogous to feminism. like it or not, it's a predominantly white, middle-class phenomenon. and so is the animal rights movement. not exclusively, but...

just playing devil's advocate. don't mind me.

oh, and i don't think i could ever say someone wasn't a feminist because they ate meat. that would be discrediting a lot of people who've accomplished more than i could ever dream of. hmm. i'm babbling.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 10/21/98 at 8:44PM. totally excellent points, katia.

Reply from: Kerkyra on 10/21/98 at 8:44PM. Well, obviously, you CAN be a feminist and eat meat. The definition of feminist doesn't include anything about vegitarianism, and vice-versa. But all forms of oppression are linked, so I feel that you should realize these links, and be vegitarian, feminist, anti-racist, anti-homophobia, and against any form of oppression...but they aren't exclusive, you can be one and not another, as millions of people prove each day, by being racist and gay, or by being black and oppressing women, or by being a feminist and eating meat...

Reply from: katia on 10/21/98 at 8:55PM. kerkyra: while i see your points, i still have problems with what you're saying. maybe i'm just oozing knee-jerk reactions here (wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last), but i still get this "well, you can't be a feminist if you eat meat" vibe from your last statement. that bothers me because it's setting up this hierarchy in feminism, this (oh god! anything but that!) elitism. that's divisive, and it makes accomplishing our goals (whatever the hell they are) more difficult.

i'm probably just overreacting, though.

and for what it's worth, i am a vegetarian. i eat dairy, though. feel free to shoot me in the head now.

Reply from: lisa zeepp on 10/21/98 at 8:59PM. i was only speaking for myself, by the way. i don't think i'm a better feminist because i decided to be vegan. i really don't want to sound like i'm looking down on anyone. it just made sense to me and i was able to do it, so i did.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 9:10PM. selective activism

Reply from: lindy's girl on 10/21/98 at 9:21PM. hi! i'm one of those nasty carnivorous feminists ;). ericka oh yeah, and katia? i think i love you ;)

Reply from: katia on 10/21/98 at 9:47PM. selective activism

why, golly gee, that is the name of the newest rant on my homepage. any opportunity for a shameless plug, don't you know.

why thank you, ericka.

Reply from: Kerkyra on 10/21/98 at 10:02PM. Okay, I didn't mean to imply that vegitarian feminists are better than any other ones...although I totally see how you could get that from my post. I just was trying to get the point across that I think everything is linked, and it's important to consider all forms of oppression as being combined in some way. People that are gay and racist make me really really mad, because people that are oppressed and victims of hate crimes should work together for some sort of hate-free world (i know i'm idealistic) instead of keeping these sort of things as seperate issues that are dealt with seperately, we need to realize that all forms of oppression are linked, that's all I was getting at.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 10:06PM. ok, not eating cows chickens pigs fish etc., that I can agree with. But should I feel guilty about eating, say, shrimps? clams?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/21/98 at 10:26PM. to the person who asked about eating clams and shrimp: you're being selective, now. "oh, we humans haven't comodified sea life enough for me to stop eating it..." yea whatever. i say if yr gonna be a vegetarian, you should stop eating meat.

Reply from: caseycultist on 10/22/98 at 6:58AM. katia, i was on food stamps for two years. it is MUCH easier to be vegan on food stamps. in west virginia, food is cheap, and you get MAD FOOD STAMPS. i got $120/month as a single person. my housemate got $250/month because she had a baby. i have never eaten so well. but then they cut my benefits and i starved. hm.

Reply from: janeeta on 10/22/98 at 9:03AM. *raising my hand with the meat-eating crowd*

Reply from: jen h8 on 10/22/98 at 9:26AM. i'm a feminist. i eat meat once every one or two months, usually if i'm at a resturaunt and want a sandwich. i don't apologize for this, but usually go out of my way not to eat meat around vegetarians/vegans. it's just my definition of common courtesy, i guess. i do, however, have a problem with vegans making me feel like shit for not being "feminist" enough, seeing that i eat meat. i think it's uncalled for.

xo jen

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 10:30AM. top

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 12:04PM. whats the difference between veganism and vegetarianism?? i dont mean to sound like a dumb ass but i'd like to be enlightened:)

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 12:06PM. PEOLPLE ARE ANIMALS TOO!! LOOK IN A FUCKING PHYLOGENY TEXT BOOK!!! How can you eat something in the same kingdom as yourself. Especially if you eat other mammals! you can't argue that other mammals don't feel pain, and do not make connections and learn, when even invertabrates like squids have been shown to be capable of learning from watching others. It would also be cheaper and more efficient to have a plant based diet (in the US at least, and they are one of the countries that consume the largest amounts of meat)As for the whole ''circle of life'' bullshit, animals only kill other animals because they need energy and they have evolved to eat meat because that is the only way for them to get energy. There would not be enough plant matter for every species on earth to eat plants, but as humans, we have learned to use tools and are so technologically advanced that all our food depends on us growing it ourselves. We don't need to eat meat to survive. People pig out on meat and get fat and get cancer and high blood pressure and wonder what went wrong. Its because people aren't meant to eat large amounts of meat. only people who don't have any means of getting enough plant matter to survive have any right to eat meat.

Reply from: lindy's girl on 10/22/98 at 12:10PM. vegetarians don't eat meat, vegans don't eat any animal by/products at all (i.e. dairy). ericka

Reply from: esk on 10/22/98 at 12:27PM. what's so special about being in the same kingdom? and just because we're mammals, other mammals automatically get higher billing than, say, reptiles? that's pretty human-centric if you ask me. and thanks, by the way, anon and kate, for ignoring the disclaimer/clarification that i put on my "circle of life" argument. i usually charge a fee to be used as a straw man, but you guys make it a pleasure.

...oh, i give up. i hereby compare everyone who has posted on this thread, including myself, to hitler.

Reply from: leesuh on 10/22/98 at 2:13PM. i am a feminist and i am vegan. it deeply disturbs me that so many people here are meat and dairy eaters.there are so many reasons that feminist especially shouldn't be eating meat(murder)or dairy(rape).i'd be so angry at the end of telling you i think i would have to cry and/or break something.there is nothing cute or funny about eating meat or dairy unless you think somethings pain and suffering is funny.just use your head if you want to know if it's bad or related to feminism because it's pretty fucking obvious.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 2:28PM. You fucking moron, you don't have a clue what you're talking about! Evolution designed animals to *eat other animals*, it's not murder any more than eating a fucking lettuce is murder. Just cause the animal you're eating feels pain doesn't mean that it's more valuable than one that doesn't. And eating dairy products is *RAPE*? Have you ever even been to a dairy farm? Well, let me tell you something. Cows *need* to be milked, they have been bred for milk. If we all stopped milking all the cows on a farm, they get irritable, then sick, then they start lactating all over the ground, then they can even DIE from it. It's not rape to take milk from a cow, because the cow doesn't mind! You are so clueless, perhaps you should learn what the hell you are talking about before posting!

Reply from: amber on 10/22/98 at 2:40PM. evolution did not design humans to eat meat at the amounts the average american does.that point is no longer valid, fucking moron anon, because we no longer kill our own food and tear at it with our carnivious teeth.. things have changed. people need to give up meat or eat less because evolution did not intend that cows fucking destroy the fertile earth all over the world. evolution did not intend to have so many fucking cows. evolution did not intend cows to be pumped with hormones to make them produce more milk, that would cause them to swell and cause infection in there bodies, inturn evolution did not intend the cows to then be pumped full of antibiotics which inturn would make us (the meat eaters) more immune to antibiotics... so you could enjoy your fucking processed meat amnd dairy with the excuse of evolution.

Reply from: smooch on 10/22/98 at 3:00PM. "You are so clueless, perhaps you should learn what the hell you are talking about before posting." Maybe you should take your own advice anon.

Reply from: ericka on 10/22/98 at 3:13PM. my god but this place just reeks of self righteous indignation.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 3:31PM. oh my god, shut up ericka

Reply from: carola on 10/22/98 at 3:39PM. I love defenceless animals, especially in a good gravy.

Reply from: kate cooties on 10/22/98 at 3:45PM. my commendations go out to everyone who's been on this thread who has been able to conduct themselves in a mature manner.

esk, i don't feel that i have used you as "a straw man." i brought up the same topic... i thought the fact that we felt similarly was obvious enough that i didn't have to mention that we felt similarly. sorry you took offense.

katia, i agree that veganism *can* be a class issue, but like casey said, i know plenty of people who are lower income, on public assistance, and even a few homeless people who still manage to be *strict* vegans. more still who manage to be more lax vegans, and even more who are freegan (in the dumpster-diving sense, not the "if someone *else* pays for it, i'll eat it" sense.) so i know it's very possible. and while that applies to veganism, vegetarianism -- which is what this post made mention of originally -- is much less of a class issue. pretty much anyone can be vegetarian.

kate cooties... whose "go vegan or go fuck yourself!" page was titled after a rather facetious quote.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 3:51PM. I didnt fight my way to the top of the foodchain to be a vegetarian!!

Reply from: lindy's girl on 10/22/98 at 4:16PM. << oh my god, shut up ericka >>

ooh, i'm so crushed, an anon viewer doesn't like me! ericka crying in her meatless chili -- you think i'm wrong? prove it then & stop telling people they can't be one thing without also being another. i respect everyone's position here, that doesn't mean i have to agree or condemn them for our differences in opinion. try it, you'll like it.

Reply from: caseycultist on 10/22/98 at 5:24PM. an anon viewer said: And eating dairy products is *RAPE*? Have you ever even been to a dairy farm? Well, let me tell you something. Cows *need* to be milked, they have been bred for milk. If we all stopped milking all the cows on a farm, they get irritable, then sick, then they start lactating all over the ground, then they can even DIE from it. It's not rape to take milk from a cow, because the cow doesn't mind! You are so clueless, perhaps you should learn what the hell you are talking about before posting!

okay, wait a minute here. i have experience with dairy cows. i lived on a self-sufficiency project farm with about 300 head of cattle for three years. this was a cruelty-free project, but neighboring our farm (3500 acres) were several other farms, dairy and beef, so i know a lot about their practices. so, YES, i have been to a dairy farm.

a factory dairy farm IS RAPE. the cows are not allowed to mate naturally because there is too much room for error and it is "inefficient." the bulls are pumped for semen wich is rammed in the cows' vaginas after the cows are strapped to what the farmers so eloquently refer to as "the RAPE RACK." i'm not making this up. it's commonly referred to as a rape rack all over the farming industry. i have heard it first hand. so the cows are forcibly impregnated. as soon as the calves are born, they are removed from their mothers. they never get to nurse natually. instead they are fed a nasty skim milk chemical-ized supplement. and the boy calves are shipped straight to the veal farm. so, you buy milk, you pay for veal, too. [actually, as a side note, someone donated money to our farm for us to buy a calf that would have been slaughtered otherwise. we went to the stockyard and they were dragging a 3 day old boy calf by his tail across the gravel. he was deathly ill. we bought him right away. he had life-threatening diarrhea and there were maggots living in his eyes. he survived, though, after being bottle fed by hand. he didn't KNOW HOW to nurse, having never been allowed to. i ask you, is that what you want to support? is it natural?] the female calves are impregnated as soon as their bodies are capable. over and over. pregnant until they drop and then they are slaughtered. is this right? is this how things should be?

cows have been bred to be milkers. yes, this is true. BUT they are also given tons of hormones to keep that milk flowing. hormones that definitely affect humans. is this natural? is this right? at our farm, we milked cows. we had relationships with the cows. they each had a name. they were treated as unique individuals. we cared for them lovingly. their milk was seen as a gift because they were not raped, not given hormones, and they got to keep their calves and be the loving mothers they were.

so i know what the hell i'm talking about. do you?

Reply from: esk on 10/22/98 at 6:44PM. kate, my sincere apologies for misunderstanding. *bowing and offering a cherry lollipop for peace*

Reply from: people eater on 10/22/98 at 7:11PM. i'm a feminist and i eat meat. every night we cut up a nice big slab of my sister's leg and cook it the way of our choice. it tastes much better than any cow or pig or chicken or horse or donkey or buffallo i have ever eaten! i suggest everyone cut a nice thick peice of their sibling's leg one day and make a meal the whole family can enjoy!

Reply from: smooch on 10/22/98 at 8:03PM. Thank you for posting that caseycultist.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/22/98 at 8:36PM. carol adams edited a MUCH better book called Animals and Woman. her page is at http://www.triroc.com/caroladams/index.htm

Reply from: amber on 10/23/98 at 1:41AM. caseycultist... you rule!! you said all my points a milion times better, and tons more then i would have been able to say. that was a wonderful post...*huga and kisses* amber

Reply from: carrie fairy on 10/23/98 at 1:52AM. that book peesha refered to, the sexual politics of meat is by alice miller i believe. correct me if im wrong. its a very very good book. it talks about everything.

Reply from: josie*jinx on 10/23/98 at 4:18AM. okay, so I've read all the posts on this thread and deary me, things are just flying way out of proportion. yes I am both a vegetarian and a feminist. however, yes, both women are animals, yes we shouldn't eat each other etc etc, but why on earth alienate a whole group of girls who believe in equal rights and happen to eat meat? not everyone has the same views and I don't honestly believe feminism can be "defined" aren't we trying to rid ourselves of point blank definitions? I know lotsa girls who eat meat and believe in womens' rights and it is certainly not for me or anyone else to deny them the right to call themselves feminists just cus they view vegetarianism in a different light, or veganism for that matter. why do we have to push people back, huh?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/23/98 at 5:01AM. sexual politics of meat was written by carol adams

Reply from: peesha on 10/23/98 at 8:36AM. thanks anon! I do think that it WAS carol adams! --love alysia

Reply from: peesha on 10/23/98 at 8:40AM. Carol Adams! Read here for more info on some of her books and a brief interview. --love alysia

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/23/98 at 1:48PM. top

Reply from: julia on 10/23/98 at 2:47PM. thanks for that josie jinx. i really dislike the idea of having limits on what a feminist is. (what about girls who come from cultures where it is customary for them to eat meat? does that mean they can't be feminists?) i have stopped eating meat now that i don't live with my parents anymore, but that would have been a lot harder if i was still living with them since they eat meat and they like to eat as a family. i am concerned about animal rights, but i would like to know how some people here feel about the united farm workers. i'm sorry if this offends some people, but for me, it's human rights over non-human animal rights. farm workers work for ridiculously small amounts of money to support their families. they do back-breaking work and get sprayed by chemicals which give them (and their children) cancer. sorry, but i have a really hard time getting 100% behind vegan politics when this is an issue which gets so much less attention.

Reply from: Chloe the Chloist on 10/23/98 at 3:07PM. For anyone who knows much about farming I have a few questions I've been wondering for a while, since I started buying organic milk and dairy products... Say if you buy dairy products from an organic farm, where they don't use the hormones and the cows are allowed to roam on a field instead of being stuck in stalls or whatnot, is it still cruel? (As long as the cows are being treated well, is it wrong to eat dairy products?) Also, do they use rape racks at organic farms? It wouldn't seem like keeping in the "spirit" of the whole thing. - a curious Chloe

Reply from: caseycultist on 10/23/98 at 3:16PM. it REALLY depends on the farm, chloe. i personally would call them up and ask them about their farming practices. i think if they milk by machine, that's a bad thing.

Reply from: cherry bomb on 10/23/98 at 3:59PM. i am a feminist. i also eat meat (albeit not too regularily. cheese and other dairy products are very regular). i think that there is something the matter with the way cows and pigs and chicken and all other animals are tortured their whole life so that as humans we can eat meat. while i plan on making steps to not eat as much meat, slowly cut it out completely, and slowly cut out dairy, and other by-products as soon as i get healthy again (probably a month or two) i have not yet. i think to be a HEALTHY vegan you do need money. to get the same amount of EVERYTHING it is quite apparent (from the material that i've read) that you need to purchase more expensive vegan foods. however i am not authority on the subject so if someone knows that i'm wrong please tell me. being vegan/vegetarian also depends on one's situation. those who are unable to cook for themselves due to physical and other disabilities, one must be physically healthy (right now i have a complicated case of mono, and one of the things that the nurses told me to get A LOT of was skimmed milk, and beef, as well as orange juice, leafy greens, etc. so thta i will get healthy), and there are other variables as well... my head is getting cloudy. (damn this sickness).

anyways, to finish off (on a hopefully somewhat coherent point) while i feel that feminism and animal rights are connected, i don't think it's mandatory in order to be a good feminist. (however, if you can't at least see SOME merit to animal rights, and you consider yourself a feminist i question your sanity). xox angela

Reply from: radioactive on 10/23/98 at 10:31PM. ok, now ive read everyone's post on this subject, and i REALLY finding it interesting how alot of people get so angry about it. the whole thing. im vegan and a feminist, but at the same time i realize that everyone has DIFFERENT ways of resisting. i think that the 2 go hand in hand and that eating meat does tie in with feminism, but it is not a rule that everyone has to go by. as for what, oh, i forget who said it, and im to lazy to go back and look, they said something to the effect of what about the girls where it is customary for them to eat meat? (i hope i got it right!). i come from a mexican family, and as many of you may know, meat was on the table alomst every single meal. i constantly get slack from my family for my beliefs and blah blah blah...im not saying that everyone has to be vegan/vegetarian ( although i would LOVE it!) but its not as hard as you would think. this is a legitimate question that i think everyone needs to think about and stop to take a look at what you believe in and how that ties in with other things. alot of things are connected that you may not realize are. and even if the 2 didn't concern eachother, i suggest you seriously take a look at becoming vegetarian. my dad who has been a lover of red meat all his life has stopped because of me. my family doesn't even buy it anymore. and people say that one person doesn't make a difference. i hope im not coming across as preachy ( tell me if i am please) but if you want some good links to pages concerning animal rights, vegetarian and veganism, e-mail me and i will be absolutely delighted to give them to you. XOXO radioactive

Reply from: kate on 10/23/98 at 11:41PM. damn, i wish i'd seen this post earlier (ie. before it dissolved into a shit flinging, name calling, rage channelling mud fight) i think the interconnection (and recognition of) various struggles are very interesting and important. Im vegan (tho quite recently i had a lapse back into dairy cuz i got sick and was too lazy and depressed to care about my morals next to my plummeting weight and lack of energy - this time im back on the right track and am being careful to eat properly.. not just bread.) oh, yeah, and im a feminist. While i don't see the too as reliant on each other, and i think you can so completely be a feminist without being vegan (its pretty much like, oh, can you be a feminist if your a man? and brian answers that one nicely i think) BUT the justification of meat eating in our culture, which is somewhat along the lines of: "They are cows...cows and chickens and ANIMALS." is fairly similar to that which has been used to justify the oppression of women for thousands of years. Im gonna cite a biblical ref. here, but id be very interested to know how many other religious groups have similar ones (i know islam myth has quite a focus on women *sleeping* with animals), anyway, back to the bible: god created women and animals to help out adam. and so, women and animals have been sacrificed for adam for centuries, cuz they're further from god. We seem to have (or at least some of us) recognized that women are a little more that adam's slaves, but the fate of animals has not been so peachy. So yeah, i think what you eat is political, just like what you say, who you fuck and what you believe. The extent to which you take these things is up to you - and i fear that our stupid fucking capitalist society won't allow the existence of animals without a set 'use', but thats another drama. right now i just want to try my hardest not to sit on anything just cuz i didn't have to do the killing myself.

Reply from: carrie fairy on 10/24/98 at 1:32AM. carol adams!@#$ GOD i cannot believe i mixed those two up. alice miller is a psychanalyst lady who wrote the drama of the gifted child. my mistake. hehe sorry.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/24/98 at 8:48AM. so what about that scene in "Pink Flamingos" when Divine gets off by putting a raw steak between his/her legs? isnt he a transvestite? wasnt he gay? wasnt he getting all yummy with that chunka meat? huh? huh?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/24/98 at 11:01AM. I'm a feminist and i'm not vegetarian. I don't see how it makes you a 'better' feminist just because you don't eat meat. sounds all very elitist and stuck-up to me. and i find it offensive that someone should think i'm (as a human being) on the same revolutionary scale as a cow - women have long been called animals (cows,dogs,bitches,etc..) as OFFENSIVE and DEGRADING terms of abuse and who wouldn't be offended to be called an 'animal'? Either you're a feminist or you're not - simple as that.

Reply from: kate cooties on 10/24/98 at 11:07AM. women have long been called animals (cows,dogs,bitches,etc..) as OFFENSIVE and DEGRADING terms of abuse and who wouldn't be offended to be called an 'animal'? Either you're a feminist or you're not - simple as that.

all the more reason to stand up for the rights of animals.

Reply from: esk on 10/24/98 at 11:11AM. heehee! i didn't know cows were on a revolutionary scale. REVOLUTION BOVINE-STYLE NOW!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 10/24/98 at 11:33AM. it is stupid to judge someone for what they eat. but if we did, what about all the jell-o kool-aid pizza huy kentucky fried chicken milky bar peanut butter burger king macdonalds shit? where does it come from?

Reply from: kate cooties on 10/24/98 at 11:46AM. yeah, esk! the cows will rise up and overthrow their oppressors! four-stomached mammals up front!!

Reply from: arcticfox on 10/24/98 at 1:56PM. i am a vegetarian because of the animal rights issues involved (i DON'T have a problem with responsible, sustainable subsistence hunting/ fishing) this is obviously related to feminism, but,well, i never thought about it that way... i am happy to have ANYONE support either, and if they are involved in both, all the better. caseycultist-- i would love some info on cruelty-free farms! is there a directory anywhere???

Reply from: caseycultist on 10/24/98 at 3:45PM. being a hare krishna, i am really only in the know about krsna farms. i lived on the one in west virginia and there is also one in central pennsylvania. they both have cow protection programs in which the cows are not only never killed, but never sold to anyone who would ever kill them or sell male calves to someone who would in turn sell them to veal producers.

Reply from: hannah on 10/24/98 at 6:11PM. okay, i think this stinks. its too much rant to read right now.

as for the original question, i think 'vegetarianism' and 'feminism' have everything to do with each other. its all about what type of consciousness you are living in.

personally, i would never have the gall to consciously hurt another anything. so i avoid it. at any cost. if you want to call that being 'vegetarian' or 'feminist', fine. i call it an attempt at sanity.

like leesuh said. it is disturbing how many people eat meat. another reason why it would probably be a better idea to not come here as often. that was not meant to stir...anything, please dont start a chainsaw parade. because im not leading it. hell, im not even following it.

i hope everyone is having a nice enough day. the weather is fine.

Reply from: radioactive on 10/24/98 at 10:52PM. ok, every one keeps on saying that the is a very elitist idea to have that you have to be vegetarian/vegan to be a feminist, and i agree it is. but, i must say that hanna had a very good point about it being an attempt at sanity. there is nothing wrong with connecting the 2, if thats the way that some people see it. get off my ass please. and if you dont see it that way, then i can't force you to. like, why can't you just accept what i believe in? it's for sure NOT negative in anyway, and im not hurting anyone.

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