Written by: katia on 7/28/98 at 8:50PM.

let's start talking, kids....

Replies:

Reply from: katia on 7/28/98 at 8:55PM. i guess i could give my opinion.

at the very least, i can't see how you can be pro-life and a feminist, but i'm not sure if i'd stretch that out into saying pro-life automatically equals sexism. (though it sure as hell can...)

i have to think about this more.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/28/98 at 8:58PM. I dont think so. I know people look at it as sexist because it abdicates to take the right from women with what they can do with there bodys...but I look at that fetus or zygote as a human being. I personally believe that when it is concieved it becomes a human being. So I think that when a woman has an abortion she is killing a person. It is that simple for me. I don't have any Christian fundemental beliefs or any kind of Christian beliefs so it isn't a religious matter, so dont start slinging Christian mud at me please. I think that when 2 people deciede to have sex than they should except the possibilty of conveiving a child whether they use protection or not, and I dont think that the child should be the one to suffer for the parents having having an unwanted pregnacy..and I dont mean children are a punishment because they arn't...i got a lot of crap for that before...I just think that it has a much right to live as anyone else.

Reply from: hmm on 7/28/98 at 9:01PM. but do the children suffer? i'm not attacking you, gepetto, i'm just wondering how much awareness that foetus has .. when does it gain a consciousness?

Reply from: hmm on 7/28/98 at 9:02PM. oops. entered it too soon .. i was going to add "do they know for sure when that happens?" bleh

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/28/98 at 9:03PM. bad parents are certainly a punishment for a child.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/28/98 at 9:07PM. Well I don't know when it gains consitousness but I still think that it will so it should be able to live...and I know bad parents are a punishment for a child but I still dont think that the child should just die. It is also the parents responsibility, thats why only responsible people should have sex. I dont think if you are responsible enough to except that responsiblity you should have sex, and I know people still do and I know that children dont deserve to grow up with bad parents but I guess I just feel the way I feel and nothing is going to change my mind. I guess I just feel that way for whatever reason. :\ Well thats all

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/28/98 at 9:12PM. Yes, anti-choice is sexist. That's not to say that "pro-lifers" acknowledge that they're sexists, or even that their belief is consciously driven by sexism. But look at the reasons abortion became an issue in the first place, and look at the people who make up the majority of pro-lifers. Examine the movement against abortion in relation to the backlash against women's sexuality in general, and against women's freedom.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/28/98 at 9:15PM. "I guess I just feel the way I feel and nothing is going to change my mind. I guess I just feel that way for whatever reason."

Allow me to congratulate you, Gepetto, on being honest enough to admit up front that you're closed minded, and more concerned with your own psychological comfort than you are with truth, or freedom, or anyone's life but your own.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/28/98 at 9:19PM. But I dont look at womens sexuallity when I think of it. I have felt this way ever sinse I knew what abortion was. And that was before i cared about sex or sexuality. And if it is considered sexist than I guess my opinions on abortion are sexist. Thoreau once said some thing like "If my soul comes from an evil hell it is better that I except that than lie to my self for it would be letting all of you down" so if it is considered sexist than I guess I have sexist beliefs regarding that issue....even though I dont feel it is sexist, at least how I look at it, but I guess I can't argue with the majority...haha.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/28/98 at 9:23PM. "But I dont look at womens sexuallity when I think of it."

Start.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/28/98 at 9:24PM. (above is mine)

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/28/98 at 9:26PM. I resent that you say i am close minded. I have gone over this issue many times with myself and other people and I havn't changed my mind. I looked at all sides of the story and I am not conserned with just my own life...I just think that anymore people are to conserned with there own lives and they dont think about the child...when I think about abortion I think about how it affects 3 people..the mother the father and the child....what the mother decides to do will change all of there lives and I dont think it should be up to us to get to decide who lives and who doesn't when conseption has already taken place anyway. I just dont agree with it and I dont think that because I disagree I am close minded. If anything I think you are close minded for assuming that I have just looked at it from one side and didn't even think to assume why I have made up my mind on the subject.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/28/98 at 9:28PM. by "us" I meant the human race.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/28/98 at 9:42PM. top

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/28/98 at 9:44PM. top

Reply from: Tracey on 7/28/98 at 9:58PM. kevin... okay here's my two cents... whether or not i believe abortion to be right or wrong... i can not, will not, take that choice away from someone else... being pro-choice does not automatically mean you are pro abortion... period. if you support the pro-life movement... if you believe that abortion is not only wrong for you but for everyone else in this country than you are taking that right away... you are making that choice for me and every other woman who lives in this country... and that to me is wrong. plain and simple. "I have felt this way ever sinse I knew what abortion was." well... i'm assuming that you mean that you've felt that abortion was wrong and the right to an abortion is wrong ever since you knew what abortion is... not because i'm pulling anything outta my behind... but because of what you had previously stated... "So I think that when a woman has an abortion she is killing a person. It is that simple for me. I don't have any Christian fundemental beliefs or any kind of Christian beliefs so it isn't a religious matter, so dont start slinging Christian mud at me please. I think that when 2 people deciede to have sex than they should except the possibilty of conveiving a child whether they use protection or not, and I dont think that the child should be the one to suffer for the parents having having an unwanted pregnacy..and I dont mean children are a punishment because they arn't...i got a lot of crap for that before...I just think that it has a much right to live as anyone else." it's fine if you believe that abortion is wrong... i'm not going to argue that belief system with you... but it is not okay to believe that people should not have access to having abortions... whether or not you agree with it abortions are always going to happen... history has proved this point many times... i.e. in countries where abortion is illegal the abortion rate and rate of those who die from unsafe abortions greatly out weigh those here... you see when you take the right to a safe abortion away from a woman you increase the likely hood that she, being a general blanket for any woman with an unwanted pregnancy, will seek out an unsafe means of ending the pregnancy which, unfortunetly, greatly increases her chances of dying from complications during or after the process... that to me... is wrong... i'm glad that you aren't lying to anyone about your belief system... but if you could vote right now... would you vote for or against abortion rights? because if you believe that abortion is wrong then i can deal with that... but if you believe that and then vote against abortion rights than i can not respect that... you are making the choice for someone else... which you disagree with when talking about why you are against abortion... "I looked at all sides of the story and I am not conserned with just my own life...I just think that anymore people are to conserned with there own lives and they dont think about the child...when I think about abortion I think about how it affects 3 people..the mother the father and the child....what the mother decides to do will change all of there lives and I dont think it should be up to us to get to decide who lives and who doesn't when conseption has already taken place anyway." if you truly looked at all sides of the issue then you would see that your decision against abortion rights affects a lot more people than just three... it affects every woman in this country... and other women living in countries that are highly influenced by the american government and how they view their social issues... you are taking that choice out of people's hands... and making it for them... you believe that we, humanity as a whole, don't have the right to decide who lives or who dies, right... but then why do you believe that you, specifically you kevin 'cause your vote does have an effect, have the right to make that choice for them either?

tracey

Reply from: 5:17 on 7/28/98 at 10:02PM. Okay, here's the way I see it...

THE MANS ROLE IN ABORTION Any man who has sex with a woman, should definitly take in to consideration the possibility of a conception occuring. If abortion is a problem then find out how your partner feels about it. Then if you still want to sleep with them (and they with you) have fun. Let's say, the woman gets pregnant. And when you were sleeping with her, she says abortion is "unthinkable." But now the story has changed, she wants to have one. The man's role is to support her decision. (it is after all hers to make.)

I used to be part of the pro-life way of thinking, but for me it all came down to oppression. I had given up eating eggs as a vegetarian, because of their "life potential" (which is a stupid reason, considering the eggs aren't fertilized). Anyway, later on my reason changed; it wasn't the egg at all but rather the fact that chickens had no choice in the matter. now, getting on to my point...

Women aren't breeders, and as far as I'm concerned any woman who thinks life starts at conception, should treat her fetus that way. Any woman who thinks life exists only outside the womb, should have the same freedom. It's not a question of God, or Science, because really, you can bring up points forever and ever, countlessly countering facts and points, but what does that matter if you sacrifice the freedom of someone.

If you're really interested in Pro-Life, go volunteer at a shelter, or adopt... in other words, improve the state of the world in such a way, that it won't be a financial strain, or mental strain to have a baby. Work to get daycare set up in local high schools. Do something, but don't take away a persons choices.

(aside: it's great to have a contrasting opinion, but if you're not willing to do anything about it, what good is it? I know tonnes of people who have extremely high moral, and ethical opinions and yet can't or won't back them up. The same people who think to "kill the unborn is wrong" are often the same people who support cuts to education, daycare, etc. The logic is beyond me.)

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/28/98 at 10:28PM. hippty hop to the top

Reply from: Justin on 7/28/98 at 10:42PM. Now, between the pro-choice and the pro-life side, there is a disagreement when a fetus becomes a living human being, so I shall put that issue aside, and bring up the issue of a woman's life, yet again. Despite the conflict in regarding the fetus, whether or not it is actually alive, I think both sides would agree that a woman is indeed alive. There isn't a substantial arguement to say otherwise (thought the ideology of the right may not value all or some rights of women). Now, with this in mind, let's think about the effects that would be induced if abortion was illegal. Hmm...well....women would continue to get abortions by other methods, illegal and unhealthy methods...and what happens then? Well, they are at great risk and they can die! Pro life is a stupid idea. It denies a woman rights over her body, and as I said, the "life" of a fetus is up for conjecture while most would agree that a woman is alive. So it comes down to the unsabstatiated "life" of a fetus and the absolute life of a woman. Which do you choose?

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/28/98 at 10:49PM. Well if I had the choice to vote on this issue I wouldn't. I am aware of the fact that women will always have abortions no matter how illegal it is (the same thing with drugs and people doing them). And i coould not vote with a good conscience either way, because I know women could lose there lives by unsafe abortions and unborn childre will die during abortions. So it is a no win situation for me. I wouldn't vote. I can't say I totally disagree with you in saying that it is making a descion for them because it is. But I personally disagree with abortion. I only know what I believe and what i would want my gf/wife however to do in the situation. But as I just said I cant make that descion for every one else. I do however think that it should be a dule descion for both the parents if abortion is an option. I just think it takes 2 to tango and fathers had just as much to do with making the child as the mother, and I know that a woman has to carry it but I look at that as biology and there is nothing we can do about it. But I dont think that I should make a descion for anyone else on this subject, but on other subjects I do (or else what would laws be for?) like drugs I would vote against legalising drugs because that puts a threat on my personal saftey by making drugs more excessible. So I am not an anarchist or anything but I dont think it is my decision for anyone else in an abortion case...but do I think that belief is sexist? no.

Reply from: raya on 7/28/98 at 11:13PM. I only know what I believe and what i would want my gf/wife however to do in the situation.

What your gf or wife does in regaurds to abortion is not your choice. It is HER body, she is the one who must carry and take care of the child, so eventhough the fetus may be genetically linked to you, it is not your desicion, and you have no right to tell your gf/wife what she should do in this situatuion..

like drugs I would vote against legalising drugs because that puts a threat on my personal saftey by making drugs more excessible.

More excessable!?!? How the hell do you do that?? Hand it out FREE??? If anyone wants drugs, any drugs, they can get them. And how are you in danger?? Yr in more danger from drunk drivers, and that's legal..

Reply from: raya on 7/28/98 at 11:15PM. pardon me, what I meant by that is the alcohol is legal, not the drunk driving:)

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/29/98 at 5:09AM. any woman who thinks life starts at conception, should treat her fetus that way. Any woman who thinks life exists only outside the womb, should have the same freedom.

A couple of people have made this argument here... It really doesn't make any sense, considering that most pro-lifers believe abortion to be murder. You couldn't just say, "Well, any person who believes life begins at three should have the right to abuse, torture and murder their two-year-old." That's ridiculous, right? Obviously everyone can't have the legal right to treat people however they want.

Fortunately, it's equally ridiculous to believe that a clump of cells has a right to its potential life any more than a seed has a right to be planted.

I know that a woman has to carry it but I look at that as biology and there is nothing we can do about it.

Shit, right kev, like you really wish you could carry a pregnancy, don't you?

I resent that you say i am close minded. I have gone over this issue many times with myself and other people and I havn't changed my mind.

So... you haven't changed your mind at all, *not even a little*, since you were first told what abortion is? Geez. Are mommy and daddy republicans?

Reply from: 5:17 on 7/29/98 at 6:01AM. Brian:A couple of people have made this argument here... It really doesn't make any sense, considering that most pro-lifers believe abortion to be murder. You couldn't just say, "Well, any person who believes life begins at three should have the right to abuse, torture and murder their two-year old." That's ridiculous, right? Obviously everyone can't have the legal right to treat people however they want. I definitly am not comparing the life of an indepenently existing life to that of one unborn. And I'm not saying woman should be able to abort their baby as they're going into labour either. Sheesh. But, beyond that I won't talk about "when a fetus is really alive," because that is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not the choice to have an abortion should be available. Everytime an issue is here gets dissected, the meaning gets shifted and inevitably lost. Okay, Pro-lifers believe abortion is murder Pro-choicers make no such distinction (are you noticing the dfference here?)

Pro-choice is not about when a fetus is alive, it's about whether or not a woman has the right to rule over the insides of her body.

I certainly do not want to trivialize this, nor will i ever state my personal opinion on abortion, because it's not relevant.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/29/98 at 6:35AM. i wonder what gaping hole is in your life brian, to make you such a toeing-the-line feminist. does it get you laid?

Reply from: caseycultist on 7/29/98 at 6:56AM. Fortunately, it's equally ridiculous to believe that a clump of cells has a right to its potential life any more than a seed has a right to be planted.

there is a huge difference between a seed and a fetus.

i really don't understand why people can't seem to acknowledge that sex has a natural consequence: pregnancy. (rape and incest issues aside) why can't people just take responsibility? is sex so goddamn all important that people can't slow down a minute and think? it's all about learning tha tevery action has a reaction.

i'm definitely a feminist, and i'm definitely against abortion. i think it's absolutely wrong. as far as the legality goes, i don't campaign one way or another.

i keep bringing this up, and i've gotten very little response from pro-choice people: in india, feminists fought long and hard for the "right" to choose. and what did the general population do with this "right?" they had gender tests on their fetuses and then 80% of fetuses that tested female were aborted. 0% of male fetuses were aborted. what a feminist victory.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/29/98 at 8:26AM. i think maybe some lesbian couples would abort a male fetus. tell me im wrong

Reply from: kali on 7/29/98 at 8:38AM. i agree with casey. i support the right of everyone to have choices, but, like casey said! you have sex can get preggie. we have vaginas penises and ovaries to procreate.

Reply from: katia on 7/29/98 at 8:39AM. i think maybe some lesbian couples would abort a male fetus. tell me im wrong

you're wrong.

there, that was easy.

Reply from: kali on 7/29/98 at 8:39AM. i'd also like to say i'm pro-choice but that doesnt mean i think abortion is right.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/29/98 at 9:08AM. No shit raya...thats why i said "I know what I would want her to do" I never said I know what I would do. However, I do think it should be a descion for both parents considering it is both his and hers. I think if I woman wants to abort the baby regardless if the father wants it, it is a little unfair to say the least, and yes drugs would become more exsessible if they were legally sold. You wouldn't have to worry about getting caught with drugs so it would become a much more public thing, and your right that alcohol is more dangerous and that is because it is more exsessible. If drugs were as easily obtainable as alcohol we would have a lot more drug relate deaths (But that a differnt subjset) Brian: As a matter of fact NO my parents are not republicans and I made my mind up for my self thank you very much. My mother is pro-life my father is pro-choice, so i came up with my veiws on my own. My parents never forced there veiws on me and I only know there veiws by asking them to tell me in the first place. SO my parents had nothing to do with how I feel. And when did this become an arguement about how my parents raised me? I don't feel that I have to give you my parents political veiws in order for us to have a conversation about abortion.

Reply from: Tracey on 7/29/98 at 11:15AM. okay not to get off subject... but... " I would vote against legalising drugs because that puts a threat on my personal saftey by making drugs more excessible." now first let me state that i do not use drugs... but, kevin, how does it put you at risk? "You wouldn't have to worry about getting caught with drugs so it would become a much more public thing, and your right that alcohol is more dangerous and that is because it is more exsessible. If drugs were as easily obtainable as alcohol we would have a lot more drug relate deaths" kevin... i think you have it a little backwards... right now, considering that there is no government regulated safety standard for the making of narcotics, you get a lot of "bad stuff" floating around out there... and unfortunetly that means a lot more deaths because of over doses of drugs laced with substances... plus most of the "drug related violence" you speak of comes from illegal drug sales in back alley ways or drug deals gone bad... but how exactly does that put you directly in danger? i don't understand... do you use drugs? are you around people who do?

but back to the real topic...

"I can't say I totally disagree with you in saying that it is making a descion for them because it is. But I personally disagree with abortion." so what do you mean then? so you agree that to take that right away then you are making up someone else's mind for them... but that you disagree with abortion... okay we already knew that you disagree with abortion... but do you disagree with it so much that you would take that right away from someone else to choose? "But I dont think that I should make a descion for anyone else on this subject, but on other subjects I do " that's fine and well kevin... so you wouldn't vote either way... that's fine too... actually i don't really think that... i think to give up one's right to vote is a very silly thing... if you're not going to vote on the subject then i think that it's a waste... really... i think that not voting is doing almost as much harm as well voting against the right to choose... but that is my opinion... "but do I think that belief is sexist? no." you're right... i do think that that view is sexist... period.

"i really don't understand why people can't seem to acknowledge that sex has a natural consequence: pregnancy." well if you want to get technical not all sex involves any chance of getting pregnant... but that is a different story... but the arguement is not whether or not people can or can not admit to the fact that during hetersexual sex there is a chance that the woman could get pregnant... i mean i'm not going to say that she is because there's a chance... not every woman who has "unprotected" sex gets pregnant... but i really don't understand what provoked that statement... i think we all took sex ed and know about the birds and the bees... but maybe i'm wrong... "'m definitely a feminist, and i'm definitely against abortion. i think it's absolutely wrong. as far as the legality goes, i don't campaign one way or another." it's fine that you think it's wrong... it's fine that you're against abortion... but if you consider yourself a feminist then why aren't you voting to give other women that choice? i'm just wondering... because i thought that one of the big things surrounding feminism was supporting women's rights... and one of those rights is the right to choose for herself and her body... "i keep bringing this up, and i've gotten very little response from pro-choice people: in india, feminists fought long and hard for the "right" to choose. and what did the general population do with this "right?" they had gender tests on their fetuses and then 80% of fetuses that tested female were aborted. 0% of male fetuses were aborted. what a feminist victory. " you're right that isn't a feminist victory... but i wonder if you know who pushed for the abortions in those cases... and i also wonder if the couples that had these tests were married or not? why? for a few reasons... in india, being considered a very conservative culture concerning women's rights, men usually make the decisions in married couple's relationships... but besides the point of culture alone, i think it's funny that i haven't heard of "gender tests" beyond sonograms... but again, i could be wrong about the use and technology of such a thing... but at this point i'd have to read up on it to give you a solid answer beyond "i didn't know that they were using gender tests yet besides sonograms who's main purpose is to see whether or not the fetus/baby/whatever is okay..." so i'll get back to you on that one...

"i agree with casey. i support the right of everyone to have choices, but, like casey said! you have sex can get preggie. we have vaginas penises and ovaries to procreate." so? your point is what? that you could get pregnant from sex? okay... we already know that... so why then do you feel the need to bring that up? could you explain a bit more please... i don't think i quite get your drift... is it that you feel that women, and men, should be taking more responsibilty if they get pregnant? i think you and caseycultist are misguided in thinking that abortion is an easy thing... or comes without other responsibities of it's own that will effect the women for the rest of her life... or are you saying that women and men know what might happen so that they should be prepared to be parents if they have sex? do you participate in pre-marital sex? either of you? are you prepared to be parents if you have sex right now? or did you just mean to regurgitate facts that we already know?

"No shit raya...thats why i said "I know what I would want her to do" I never said I know what I would do." what? actually kevin you did say you knew what you would do... "I only know what I believe and what i would want my gf/wife however to do in the situation." just thought i'd point that little fact out to you kevin... because apparently you do know what you would "believe and what i would want my gf/wife however to do in the situation." i think, as is usually the case, you are trying to back pedal out of the arguement... period.

kevin, my opinion still stands, i think you are a hypocrite... plain and simple...

tracey

Reply from: katia on 7/29/98 at 11:33AM. I dont think it should be up to us to get to decide who lives and who doesn't.

funny, i've usually heard that statement used as an argument for pro-choice, not anti-choice.

kevin, it concerns me that you apparently aren't seeing your own inherent contradictions here. tracey's right; you are a hypocrite. i would recommend that you not spit out dogma on command until you totally understand what you're talking about.

to the anonymous viewer who implied that brian's a big old feminist so he can get laid: oh, please. you obviously aren't giving brian--or males in general, for that matter--much credit. god fucking forbid that he should be a feminist activist because he's actually concerned or something; everybody knows that men only care about wimmin for one thing and nothing else. grow up.

i'm in a less forgiving mood than i was last night when i started this thread. i've made up my mind; being opposed to abortion is sexist, closed-minded, anti-womon, and just plain old stupid.

so there you go.

Reply from: raya on 7/29/98 at 1:53PM. *clapping for katia*

Okay, I'm gonna make it really nice and simple. We can argue about the moral issue of abortion right into the ground.. but in the end what really matters in this situation is how abortion is legislated, in essesnce, how it effects the female population.

No matter how much you apose abortion, it will not stop.

The difference between legalizing abortion and making it illegal is a matter of the safety of the women involved. They will have abortions either way. It is just a matter if they get a safe, clean, legal abortion.. or an unsafe, possibly deadly, illegal abortion.

So no matter what you personally would do when faced with an unwanted pregnancy (men, this has nothing to do with you, yr not the one carring it), it is not up to you to decide for another person. All of you anti aborionists(I call you this beacuse I am pro-LIFE) who keep saying you would be nutral if faced with voting on abortion rights, your non action IS an action, an action against women's rights.

If I was raped and became pregnant, I would get an abortion, and you could not stop me. (and don't give me that bullshit of "we could make it legal for women who were raped.. because that would require PROVING that you were raped in a court of law, and we know how hard that is.)

Pro-choice= recognizing abortion as the decision of the individual.

Anti-abortion= taking that right away from women. and as a women I take this very personally.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/29/98 at 4:36PM. I am not trying to back peddle out of anything Tracey, I said "I know what I would want HER to do" I didn't say i know what I would TELL her to do. I KNow that it is a womans choice. Thats law. What tyou people don't seem to understand is that I dont' consider that fetus to be only a "blob of cells", I consider it a human being there for I think it is wrong to abort, and if I chosse to remain neutral on the subject sinse I know that women will die in unsafe abortions and I dont want to take a part in voting for that and I know that unborn children will die if they are aborted. So either way I would look at it as to wether I was chooseing (or at least taking a part in chooseing ) what person gets to live and what person gets to die. I don't want to be part of that and I don't think not voting on that is anti-woman, or anti-feminist, because I dont think it is a sexist veiw to be pro-life...and further more I dont think I ever said i was anti-choice I only said I was pro-life. I am not anti-choice. i sated what I felt on the subject of the right to choose in my last post so if you want to know what I think scoll up, unless you already read it.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/29/98 at 4:50PM. up there belongs to me

Reply from: katiekaput on 7/29/98 at 4:58PM. but the fetuses would "die" anyway in the unsafe abortions. so it's more a question of fetuses + mothers, or just fetuses? hugs and love forever, kat

Reply from: kali on 7/29/98 at 6:23PM. bah. all this pointing out that you think others is wrong (this isnt directed to one person but every person that posted on this thread) really isnt going anywhere. shrug, i believe everyone has the right to make up their mind what is right and wrong. i could rant for hours about my beliefs and that would get nowhere because none of you are gunna change your minds....i also believe in a little thing called KARMA. nuff said.

Reply from: katia on 7/29/98 at 6:28PM. i'm feeling argumentative today. deal with it.

i also believe in a little thing called KARMA. nuff said.

oh, christ. are you implying that anyone who has an abortion is going to be tortured in their next life? what-fucking-ever.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/29/98 at 8:37PM. Well I don't believe that sinse I don't believe in Karma and I dont believe in reincarnation.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/29/98 at 8:47PM. "Shit, right kev, like you really wish you could carry a pregnancy, don't you?" Well it doesn't matter if I do or I dont...Because I cant and there is nothing I can do to change that. If a man wants to have a child there must be a woman to carry it, if I woman wants a child there has to be some type of male role, one can't make a baby without the other. So that why I think it should be a dule descion for both parents. It is unfortunate I guess that the burden of child bearing was given to women but as I said thats biology.

Reply from: raya on 7/29/98 at 9:25PM. and further more I dont think I ever said i was anti-choice I only said I was pro life.

The group known as "pro-life" is against abortions, and more commenly for the illegalization of abortion. So pro-life does=anti-choice. If you are for the individual woman's choice to have an abortion, then you are pro-CHOICE.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/29/98 at 9:39PM. I am pro-choice because I dont think it should be my descion whether or not what other people do in that situation. I personally dont agree with abortion, but I dont think it should be outlawed.

Reply from: raya on 7/29/98 at 9:49PM. Yeah. Exactly, everybody always thinks pro-choice=pro-abortion, but it doesn't. Calling yrself pro-life connects you to those who would take that right away from women, but all pro-choice means is that you support a woman's right to CHOOSE.

My sister has had an abortion, when she was 15. Sure, she should have been more responsible, but considering the situation she was in it was not the best thing for her to have that child. She is pregnant now and getting married to the father on Sunday, and this time she is in a situatuion where she is secure and the baby will have a good suportive home:) I don't think abortion is a wonderful thing, if I were a straight woman I don't know if I could do it myself.. but I understand it.. and women has the right to control what happens with her body.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/29/98 at 9:55PM. caseycultist: "i really don't understand why people can't seem to acknowledge that sex has a natural consequence: pregnancy."

I don't understand why people want people to suffer for sex, or pay some "consequences." This is the same load of crap Gepetto was saying. It doesn't make sense. I'll (kindof) respect an opinion that abortion is wrong because the fetus deserves moral consideration. I will never respect the opinion that abortion is wrong because women somehow deserve a pregnancy because they had sex.

"they had gender tests on their fetuses and then 80% of fetuses that tested female were aborted. 0% of male fetuses were aborted."

Um... *Who* did this, and where did you get this statistic?

kali: "you have sex can get preggie. we have vaginas penises and ovaries to procreate."

Well, if you drive a car you can have a wreck. Does that mean you shouldn't go to the hospital because you "deserved" the accident for choosing the risk? That's ridiculous.

We *don't* have sex to procreate. We have sex for fun. We are one of only two or three species capable of pleasurable sex throughout the female's cycle, as well as female orgasm. Sex has evolved as a social interaction in our species -- it is *not* only for procreation.

Gepetto: "If drugs were as easily obtainable as alcohol we would have a lot more drug relate deaths"

Which would be more than offset by the end of prohibition-related deaths.

"And when did this become an arguement about how my parents raised me?"

When you say that you have had exactly the same opinion on abortion ever since you were told what abortion was, it calls into question the validity of the definition you were given, and whether or not you've ever actually considered opposing viewpoints since forming this opinion. I'm sure I knew about abortion by the time I was ten. I don't have many opinions which haven't changed since then. Has you opinion matured since you formed it?

Kali: "i believe everyone has the right to make up their mind what is right and wrong."

Well, yes, everyone has a right to believe what they want, but that doesn't make what they believe right. I, for one, still believe in right and wrong.

Gepetto: "It is unfortunate I guess that the burden of child bearing was given to women but as I said thats biology."

Soooooooooooooooo unfortunate. I'm sure you can't sleep at night because you're so torn up over this.

Reply from: enik on 7/29/98 at 11:24PM.

This is a really lame way to give my opinion on the subject , but I agree 100% w/ what 5:17 said. I wish I could be as articulate as he.

On a related note: In my small, southern hometown of Kannapolis, NC, at least once a year the pro-lifers line the highway with signs stating, "Abortion Is Murder". As you drive by, they just look at you. When you stop at a stop light, they just stand there looking at you w/ thier signs. You can see hatred in thier eyes. There is a contridiction there somewhere. Its very scary. Very scary. I'm ashamed to say I haven't documented it by now. I hope to have pictures next time this "event" takes place.

Reply from: 5:17 on 7/30/98 at 0:06AM. "they [women in india] had gender tests on their fetuses and then 80% of fetuses that tested female were aborted. 0% of male fetuses were aborted."

Um... *Who* did this, and where did you get this statistic?

i don't know where she got the statistic, but i belive it may have been Femicide which, I think was edited by Diane Russell and someone else. But again, there are lots of other cultural aspects of that arguement, which I am far from capaple of disscussing , due to limited knowledge of India's social and political structures. However I suggest starting a new post on this, as it would be pretty informative to learn about women's rights in other countries.

Reply from: 5:17 on 7/30/98 at 0:09AM. the last paragraph above was my comment. above that was a quote

Reply from: Tracey on 7/30/98 at 1:35AM. "I am not trying to back peddle out of anything Tracey, I said "I know what I would want HER to do" I didn't say i know what I would TELL her to do" so in other words kevin... if you and your girlfriend/potential girlfriend/wife/whatever had unprotected sex... and she got pregnant... you'd know what you would want her to do... but wouldn't say anything? you'd just sit there and not open your mouth to give her your opinion? i'm sorry kevin... i don't believe this... you seem to have very little trouble "opening" your mouth and giving your opinions to people over the internet... i doubt that there would be much difference with people you actually see on a regular basis... "I KNow that it is a womans choice. Thats law. What tyou people don't seem to understand is that I dont' consider that fetus to be only a "blob of cells"" what you don't seem to understand kevin is this... i wasn't arguing what the fetus/zygote/baby/whatever is, was, will be... i was discussing, debating, "arguing"(if you'd like) over women's rights... specifically a woman's right to choose... so i think you can drop the whole when life starts arguement... i would believe i had already stated that i'm not going to try to argue when it does or does not... because you know what? i don't know... and niether do you for that matter... you may have an idea... a thought... a possiblity... but you are not in there... you don't know... i'm not in there... i don't know either... so you can drop the whole "blob of cells" thing... 'cause i wasn't discussing it... "I know that women will die in unsafe abortions and I dont want to take a part in voting for that and I know that unborn children will die if they are aborted" well... here's a news flash for you, kevin, women will have abortions anyway you look at it... why not save at least one life here... but i guess that may be too much to ask of you... but to restate what andrea had to say and something i too have said before... BEING PRO-CHOICE DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN YOU ARE PRO-ABORTION... what it does mean is that you won't take that right to choose away from someone... that you are willing to make sure that if someone chooses abortion that she's not going to die because of any complications... simple really... "I don't want to be part of that and I don't think not voting on that is anti-woman, or anti-feminist, because I dont think it is a sexist veiw to be pro-life..." you don't? let's see... if you are pro-life... you are against abortion as a choice for women... you think it's wrong... and you are therefore... against it... you don't think that it should be a choice... because if you did, kevin, then your entire argument would be blown... because it you thought that women had the right to choose you wouldn't be against them making that choice... you don't have to like... but at the same time... you shouldn't take that option away... "and further more I dont think I ever said i was anti-choice I only said I was pro-life. I am not anti-choice. i sated what I felt on the subject of the right to choose in my last post so if you want to know what I think scoll up, unless you already read it. " i did... and basically i saw this... you talking about how the legalization of drugs was comparable to abortion, somehow?... but you did say that you didn't think that you should make that decision for someone else... what do you think you might be doing by not voting on it? if you stay silent you might as well be against the right to choose... how productive is silence? how productive has it been proven to be in social issues throughout history? not very... in fact... if anything... it's proven to hinder progress... kevin... you are back pedaling... you say that if being pro-life is sexist then you are one... then you say you aren't one... examples: "And if it is considered sexist than I guess my opinions on abortion are sexist" "so if it is considered sexist than I guess I have sexist beliefs regarding that issue" "I don't want to be part of that and I don't think not voting on that is anti-woman, or anti-feminist, because I dont think it is a sexist veiw to be pro-life" so what is it then? are you? or aren't you? do you believe what you stated first... or what you stated later? are you back pedaling? are you a hypocrite? or are you keeping a consitant point of view? i'd say the only consitant point of view that you have kevin, in this arguement, is that you are pro-life... no buts about it... "If a man wants to have a child there must be a woman to carry it, if I woman wants a child there has to be some type of male role, one can't make a baby without the other. So that why I think it should be a dule descion for both parents" you are right to a certain extent... but to be a parent you have to have a little more than just sperm and an ovary... so if you actually have two PARENTS then yes... it is a dual process... but if there is just one or none, for that matter, then nope... sorry... it's ultimatley the woman's choice... kevin... have you seen how i can think that you are a hypocrite now? or do i need to point everything out for you? and it's not just concerning the issue of whether or not i think you are a sexist, for the record now i do, but that wasn't originally why i said that you were... but it is part of the reason why i still believe that you are...

tracey

Reply from: kali on 7/30/98 at 5:49AM. <> no KATIA. lets not ASSume here. perhaps what i should have said is that, people who have abortions arent mostly going to forget about it and not let them hurt them anymore. its most likely a big deal to most people...not just something they shrug off. they are going to have to live with it for the rest of their life. its going to affect some other things in their life, perhaps marriage, or childbirth (planned pregnancy), fertiliztation...etc...*sigh*

Reply from: caseycultist on 7/30/98 at 5:56AM. I don't understand why people want people to suffer for sex, or pay some "consequences." This is the same load of crap Gepetto was saying. It doesn't make sense. I'll (kindof) respect an opinion that abortion is wrong because the fetus deserves moral consideration. I will never respect the opinion that abortion is wrong because women somehow deserve a pregnancy because they had sex.

i don't mean that people should have to suffer because of sex. but every action has different possible reactions. and when a fertile male and female engage in penis-vagina intercourse, there is a possibility of conception. everyone knows that. and by knowing that, i think the couple should be prepared to take responsibility. i think it's awful that a conception would be anything other than a blessing. fuck our society for make pregnancy seem like a burden.

"they had gender tests on their fetuses and then 80% of fetuses that tested female were aborted. 0% of male fetuses were aborted."

Um... *Who* did this, and where did you get this statistic?

i read this in a book by an american woman, a feminist, who lived in various parts of india doing journalism for several years. i can't remember the title, it was about a year ago. she spent time in small, agricultural villages and in huge cities like delhi and mumbai. she talked a lot about the female feticide issue. in india there is a dowry system. the way this worked in antiquity was that it ensured that a woman always had property. that even if her husband turned out to be a complete loser, she would be secure and have valuables to make sure she and her children were fed and clothed. this property was given to her by her parents at the time of marriage. now, it's been twisted. it's basically a price the parents of the bride pay to the groom and his parents to get the girl married off. parents are in all kinds of anxiety because if they can't raise a huge dowry, no one will marry their daughter, which amounts to social death for them. and if they have several daughters... there are two main economic classes in india. outlandishly wealthy and then subsistence workers. but there is a small "middle class" (who in america would be very wealthy by our standards), who are positively drowning over the dowry issue. which leads to the abortion thing... no one wants a daughter. no one wants to have to worry about a dowry. so some of the population (those who can afford it) have some sort of chemical gender test performed as early as possible in pregnancy (i think it's related to the amniocentesis). and out of the couples who have this test, 80% of the female results led to abortion. 0% of the male results did. that's the statistic cited in the book (not the author's statistic, but from a study done). but it gets worse. in the villages, they can't afford these tests, so the author observed on several occasions female infanticide. they would poison their female newborns, or drown them. and no one ever went to jail for such a thing. i also want to say, the author was very pro-choice, but understandably appalled with the situation.

Reply from: holiday golightly on 7/30/98 at 11:31AM. but aborting the female is not an abortion problem, it is the patriarchal attitude of the culture that sees women as inferior beings that is the problem... that is the reason they abort the girls... many cultures also practice female infanticide too... it shows that it has nothing to do with the fact that abortion is legal, but with the people in charge (men, husbands)...

i applaud katia and tracey for making intelligent and right-on arguments! i completely agree with ya guys! *mwah* *hugs* xxoxoxo heather

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/30/98 at 5:52PM. top.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/30/98 at 7:00PM. Tracey...let me rephrase myself...if you consider me to be a sexist then to you I am a sexist...I dont agree with you on that but if you considered me a sexist and everyone else in the world does I still dont consider it a sexist beleif to be pro-life. I never said I was anti-abortion either really, as you are are prochoice but not pro-abortion do you understand that now...And yeah I would open my mouth in that situation...I would express what I would want her to do...and I would at least think she would be considerate enough to ask me considering I would be the father. I would express to her I did not want her to abort but legally there is nothing I could do to stop her.

Reply from: Tracey on 7/30/98 at 7:47PM. kevin... "if you consider me to be a sexist then to you I am a sexist...I dont agree with you on that but if you considered me a sexist and everyone else in the world does I still dont consider it a sexist beleif to be pro-life okay... so lets say that most people believed that certain things that you say were, well, racist, this is just an example kevin no one is accusing you of being a racist... let's say that everyone in the entire world thought this... i hate to tell you kevin... but most likely that would point to the fact that you are a racist... i mean... do you honestly think that the general population in america considers themselves to be racist? prejudiced? here's an example... me... i'm prejudiced... i can at least admit this... i never thought i was, up until i took a real good look at myself and the word prejudice... it means to pre judge someone... which, unfortunetly i am guilty of from time to time... what i'm getting at kevin... is this... you don't have to think of yourself as say a sexist to hold sexist views... you don't have to believe that your views are sexist for them to be... many racist don't view their racial attitudes as hate but as love of their race... where as i think it's pretty painfully obvious that it is based on hate... do you understand what i'm saying kevin? just because you don't think your views on abortion rights are sexist does not mean that they are not... "I never said I was anti-abortion either really" oh really kevin? shall we refresh your memory? "But I personally disagree with abortion." but of course you aren't anti-abortion right? but here's some more of your greatest hits thus far in this conversation... "I personally believe that when it is concieved it becomes a human being. So I think that when a woman has an abortion she is killing a person. It is that simple for me. " "I just dont agree with it..." kevin see the problem here is that you've already admitted to that you are not for abortion... in fact that you don't believe in abortion as an option for women... you then turned around and tried to back pedal your way out of it... because you see kevin... if you were really pro-choice... i highly doubt that you would have argued so against abortion rights... am i making myself really clear kevin? 'cause i'm getting really tired of having to go over and over this stuff with you... because as soon, and i'm not just talking about myself, as someone makes a point to you, you are off with another point, sometimes points that are not being argued, this continues for a bit until you reach the original point again... which you then start arguing again... but lets move on alright... "And yeah I would open my mouth in that situation...I would express what I would want her to do...and I would at least think she would be considerate enough to ask me considering I would be the father. I would express to her I did not want her to abort but legally there is nothing I could do to stop her." okay kevin... you're doing it again... you are contradicting yourself... "I said "I know what I would want HER to do" I didn't say i know what I would TELL her to do." so which is it kevin? or do you not see the contradiction? "And yeah I would open my mouth in that situation..." " I didn't say i know what I would TELL her to do." this would be contradiction number one... but there is more... " I didn't say i know what I would TELL her to do." " I would express to her I did not want her to abort..." does that make it any clearer for you? the truth of the matter is this... i could sit here and pick at every single contradiction you've made with yourself... i could call you a hypocrite all day and prove it time and time again... given the amount of stuff you give me to work with... but in the end... you can't even admit to yourself that you are... that you have been a hypocrite at all... which says a lot to me about your personality... regardless of your age... you should be mature enough right now to admit when you are wrong... i know a 9 year old girl, when shown and given proof of her actions, can admit to being wrong, apologize, and then learn a lesson from her actions... a fuckin' 9 year old... grow up kevin... learn from your actions... admit that you are wrong... or at least admit to the fact that you have sexist views... you care more about what you think is right for everyone else then what anyone else might think is right for themselves...

tracey

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/30/98 at 9:25PM. "when a fertile male and female engage in penis vagina intercourse, there is a possibility of conception."

So fucking what?

Because there is a possibility of something happening doesn't mean that is it *supposed* to happen, or that if you don't want it but make it possible anyway, that you *deserve* for it to happen. Convince me otherwise.

"i think it's awful that a conception would be anything other than a blessing. fuck our society for make pregnancy seem like a burden."

Golly, some people just don't *want* to carry around all that extra weight for so long. Some people don't want to bring a child into this hellhole. Some people CARE about overpopulation. Pregnancy *is* a burden if it's unwanted. Just because you think that everyone should be happy to be pregnant doesn't mean it's wrong for someone who isn't happy about it to do something about it.

If you really didn't want people to think of conception as a burden... You wouldn't be against abortion.

Reply from: 5:17 on 7/30/98 at 9:28PM. damn i accidentally pushed the start over button. so i'm paraphrasing what i basically said was... I'm glad Gepetto is making contradictory statements, it means he's open to suggestions and opinions, and listening to what's being said. he ultimatly believes that the final decision is the womans (even though abortion is unthinkable to him--which is fine!), and that's what's most important here.

I do think that you may want to reconsider not voting to keep abortion legal, because people should have the right to make their own choices, about religion, politics, etc. and every right taken away can only work against us in the end.

Reply from: Gepetto on 7/30/98 at 9:44PM. I said I dont agree with it. I never said I thought it should be outlawed....and i cant tell her what to do in the situation I would express how I felt but thats all i could do. So I would tell how I felt but I would not tell her what to do.

Reply from: Tracey on 7/31/98 at 0:01AM. 5:17... "I'm glad Gepetto is making contradictory statements, it means he's open to suggestions and opinions, and listening to what's being said." i'm sorry to disagree with you... but i don't think it's a good thing that he's contradicting himself... not to say that noone ever contradicts themselves BUT when his opinion shifts so much to cover his butt, i.e. i'm not a sexist/i guess i am one/i don't think i am one, then it becomes a problem... "he ultimatly believes that the final decision is the womans (even though abortion is unthinkable to him--which is fine!), and that's what's most important here." does he really? take into account that he can't make up his own mind about whether or not his opinions are sexist, which was the original point of this thread but not the original reason that i called him a hypocrite in the first place, he seems to shift his opinions when people debate him and question his motives/opinions/morals... so what's to say that if another thread like this pops up then we'll have to go through this whole thing again? which btw has been done before, i.e. other threads over abortion rights where he has made it pretty clear that he doesn't think that it's ultimately the women's decision... in fact he started out saying he didn't think anyone had that right to choose... and that is why he would choose not to vote on the issue... "I know people look at it as sexist because it abdicates to take the right from women with what they can do with there bodys...but I look at that fetus or zygote as a human being. I personally believe that when it is concieved it becomes a human being. So I think that when a woman has an abortion she is killing a person. It is that simple for me." "I think that when 2 people deciede to have sex than they should except the possibilty of conveiving a child whether they use protection or not, and I dont think that the child should be the one to suffer for the parents having having an unwanted pregnacy.." "Well I don't know when it gains consitousness but I still think that it will so it should be able to live...and I know bad parents are a punishment for a child but I still dont think that the child should just die. It is also the parents responsibility, thats why only responsible people should have sex. I dont think if you are responsible enough to except that responsiblity you should have sex, and I know people still do and I know that children dont deserve to grow up with bad parents but I guess I just feel the way I feel and nothing is going to change my mind." "I dont think it should be up to us to get to decide who lives and who doesn't when conseption has already taken place anyway. I just dont agree with it and I dont think that because I disagree I am close minded." it was only until later that he started changing his views on things... but he's done this before, this is the big problem i have with this, he'll start on a thread, with a certain topic, he'll argue/debate/have the discussion and in the end it sometimes appears that he's made progress and changed his, at times, narrow point of view... but then another thread will pop up with the same topic and he'll go back to his original train of thought... so you see... he doesn't listen... i mean please... he's already started that... he states that he's pro-life in the begining... and then he changes that and says that he's pro-choice... he goes from saying that he doesn't think that anyone has that right to choose... to saying that it's ulitimately the woman's choice... the thing is... is that he continuely does this... it seems almost like some cycle... i mean... does he forget what his opinions are at the end of debates? or does he really truly mean the change of his opinions? and if he meant them... then why is it that when the topic is reintroduced that he goes back to his first train of thought? there have only been a few times that kevin has kept a consitent opinion about things that haven't changed over from one thread to another... that is when it seems that other people out rightly share his opinion... it would seem to me that he feels strength in numbers and holds tight then... but when he's basically the only one, for a period of time, that's arguing/debating/discussing is when he changes his position on the matter... BUT it always goes back to the first initial thought/opinion that he held when the same topic is posted... so no... i don't think it's a good thing that he's so contradictory... i personally think he needs to think through his opinions more carefully and find one that he can hold onto and can really believe in... and maybe that will take more than a few years... who knows... if you don't agree then you don't agree... but that's what i think

tracey

Reply from: w on 7/31/98 at 0:13AM. i think that this is not a gender issue in any way it all comes down to personal choice. also how can pro life people say dont kill an unborn baby when they say oh sweet are we having steak for tea. im not saying everyone dose but just those who do, it just proves how assholish humanes are. i am not in anyway against aboration hell i would abort if it was the best option for the child, also i figure that the soul is the driving force behind us so hay the soul can just jump to another carcass.

Reply from: Justin on 7/31/98 at 0:23AM. The irrational hyprocritical fantacism of the militant anti-abortion movement fucking disgusts me. They destroy the lives of women and doctors who perform abortions through terrorist acts in order to save a fetus, something of which there is no proof of it's actually "living". They murder and maim people. I'm apt to think that it isn't even the supposed "life" of the fetus that they care about, rather, they are expressing a culturally influenced anger and hatred for women and this is a manifestation of it. I suppose this is a little off topic, but I had to rant, damn it!

Reply from: Miss Violet on 7/31/98 at 12:12PM. When we think of pro-lifers we usualy tend to think religious, white concervative males. It is easy to say that pro-life equals sexism but it is more complicated than that. I know plenty of liberal, atheist pro-lifers. To be pro-life is as valid as being against animal testing or capital punishment. I my self am pro-choice but I would never judge another human as being as close minded or ignorant because they are pro-life. Remember that pro-choice does not mean that we celebrate abortion but rather celebrate human individualism.

Reply from: Justin on 7/31/98 at 2:01PM. Anti-abortion does equal sexism when the movement for such attacks and moves to put restraints over the body and deprives the right to choose over the group effected, which is women. I have not yet been convinced otherwise. As for pro-life being valid, I'll just say that all opinions are valid, what is questionable is the validity of what they are based on. I think the issues of animal rights and capital punishment differ too greatly to even compare them to the abortion/women's rights issue, though there may be some similarities. (By the way, I'm for animal rights and I'm against capital punishment, just for the record).

Reply from: ashley on 7/31/98 at 3:40PM. " I will never respect the opinion that abortion is wrong because women somehow deserve a pregnancy because they had sex." *claps*

Reply from: miz_jenn on 7/31/98 at 4:56PM. pro-life=sexist?

I must say that I had never thought about it in that light. I think that forced pregnancies (in the sense that *remaining* pregnant is forced, not that conception was forced) would take away a woman's future options. Forcing a woman to have a child can force a societal stigma on her, depending on her situation. It seems to me that those who want women to have no option to pregnancy, and those that think being a single mother is wrong, tend to be grouped together on the political spectrum. Leaving what? The only acceptable option is being pregnant as part of a "traditional" family

And what if you become pregnant as the result of a rape? Preventing someone from having an abortion forces them to undergo two unwelcome experiences- both depriving her of private decisions about what should be done with her body.

Unfortunately, equating being pro-life and sexism means that my parents are sexist. And I have a hard time believing that my father is sexist. If I had to choose, I would agree that pro life=sexism, but this is with a few private reservations.

(my apologies if this message is somewhat incoherent)

Reply from: taylor k on 7/31/98 at 6:05PM. *applauds what holiday said about india* exactly! and also, I have the feeling that if men were able to get pregnant abortion would be federally funded...

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/31/98 at 6:25PM. Justin: "As for pro-life being valid, I'll just say that all opinions are valid, what is questionable is the validity of what they are based on."

I don't understand the distinction, Justin. I don't believe that all opinions are valid.

ashley: "*claps*"

Thanks! glad you liked it.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 7/31/98 at 6:43PM. Taylor, if men could get pregnant... abortion would be a sacrament.

(who said that?)

Reply from: Tracey on 7/31/98 at 7:04PM. miz jenn"It seems to me that those who want women to have no option to pregnancy, and those that think being a single mother is wrong, tend to be grouped together on the political spectrum." how is that? huh? i think that having the option of pregnancy is great... in fact that's part of the choice issue we're talking about... there should be one... "Unfortunately, equating being pro-life and sexism means that my parents are sexist. And I have a hard time believing that my father is sexist. If I had to choose, I would agree that pro-life=sexism, but this is with a few private reservations." how is that? if your father took away the right of choice from your mother then yes he is sexist... if the pregnancy was, obviuosly, wanted, and both agreed to have it then no he isn't... i'm not sure where you got the if your pro-choice here and arguing that anti-choice folks are sexist=anyone who has a child is automatically so... no... that's not at all what people are saying... a fundemental part of being pro-choice is just that... to have the option of having a child or not having a child... i'm not sure where you got that people are saying that parents with children are sexist... taking away the option of abortion away from women is sexist... not taking the option of having a child... what i think,other people were trying to say and i know that i was, is that if a women finds herself pregnant and does not want to have the child that is fully within her rights... if she wants to have the child, i think this is just as obvious, that is definetly within her rights... noone was calling PARENTS OR WOMEN who want children sexist or suffering from sexist stigmas... i'm still baffled about where you got that idea from... but just to rephrase it... people who choose to take abortion as an option away from women are sexist... people who WANT to have children are not...

miss violet... "To be pro-life is as valid as being against animal testing or capital punishment." how is that? if they don't agree with it fine... but if they choose take that right away from other people how is that valid? how is that right? there is no reason to test on animals... animals have proven to react differently to certain drugs than humans and to certain diseseas (i don't think i spelled that right) than humans... and testing whether or not shampoo will burn animals eyes over and over again is just a silly thing... but having the right to choose abortion as an option is valid... taking that right away is being somewhat opressive... being against animal rights is not the same as being against the right to choose... and i personally agree with what taylor has to say about it... "I have the feeling that if men were able to get pregnant abortion would be federally funded..." i think it's really that simple... i highly doubt that if both men and women could somehow become pregnant that there would not be so much hoopla over the whole subject...

tracey

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 7/31/98 at 10:01PM. I dont see how someone can be a vegitarian and then be pro-choice.

Reply from: Justin on 7/31/98 at 10:13PM. Anon: There is a fundamental difference in a fetus and the effects of anti-abortion against women and a living animal. From your statement above, I'll assume you have never really thought about or pursued the idea of animal rights and vegetarianism/veganism. I don't want to turn this into an animal right/veganism thread, but I'll tell you the reasons I'm vegan are personal ethics, environmental and altruistic reasons, while the reason I'm pro-choice, and steadfastly so, is because I believe a woman's body is hers and should be respected as such. We need not go into the negative details about legal restraints against abortion, they've been covered in this post a thousand times, and covered in other similar posts a millions times. I've been keeping count.

Reply from: raya on 7/31/98 at 10:26PM. Because they're 2 completely different issues.. *hello*

Pro-choice= giving women the right to have safe abortions..(saving lives) vegitarian= a lot of different things for people, either they don't think it's ehtical to kill an amimal for food when we don't need to, or it's an issues of diet and health.. and on.. anti-capitol punishment= Revenge is not justice. Murder is pointless and it's more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in jail for 40 years... and on.. Eventhough they are all completely different issues altogether, they DO all have one thing in common... The rights of living creatures.

Reply from: 5:17 on 8/1/98 at 8:16AM. i'm vegan and pro-choice. I agree totally w/ Justin and raya on their reasons. In fact i think I became Pro-Choice and Vegan at about the same time. (i gave up my pro-life / vegetarian lifestyle.)

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/1/98 at 2:42PM. tracey, i think that there was a little micommunication of my ideas perhaps. i NEVER meant to say that people who want children are sexist.

miz jenn="It seems to me that those who want women to have no option to pregnancy, and those that think being a single mother is wrong, tend to be grouped together on the political spectrum." tracey= "how is that? huh? i think that having the option of pregnancy is great... in fact that's part of the choice issue we're talking about... there should be one..."

of course there should. if i implied otherwise, i didn't mean to. i was just saying that those espousing traditional family and those espousing pro-life beliefs are often the same people.

tracey="i'm not sure where you got the if your pro-choice here and arguing that anti choice folks are sexist=anyone who has a child is automatically so... no...that's not at all what people are saying..."

that's not at all what i am saying either. what i was trying to get at was this: if pro-life=sexist, and my parents are pro-life, then that means they are sexist. and i have a really hard time believing that my father is sexist (my mother is but that's another issue). i did NOT mean to say that BECAUSE they had a child, it means they are sexist.

tracey="what i think,other people were trying to say and i know that i was, is that if a women finds herself pregnant and does not want to have the child that is fully within her rights... if she wants to have the child, i think this is just as obvious, that is definetly within her rights..."

i agree. completely and totally.

tracey="noone was calling PARENTS OR WOMEN who want children sexist or suffering from sexist stigmas... i'm still baffled about where you got that idea from..."

actually, i'm rather baffled as to where you got that idea from. i think it's because i didn't specifically point out that my parents were pro-life. i thought people would pick that up. obviously i was wrong, and i should have specifically noted that. i'm not very articulate. i did apologize about my incoherent message, and now i'm doing it again.

Reply from: Tracey on 8/2/98 at 10:44AM. mizz jenn... okay... i get it... sorry... but... i do believe that the idea of being pro-life is sexist still though... maybe your father is not a sexist in everything he thinks or says but being pro-life is taking that right away from women... taking that choice... and that is a sexist view point... i see, now that you've pointed it out, where the miscommunication is... it was a bit foggy and i'm sorry that i misunderstood you...

tracey

Reply from: Mikal on 8/2/98 at 11:47AM. Wow. This has become quite fragmented.

I have a few comments i'd like to make:

1) Regardless of knowing the consequences of possible pregnancy or not, people (not all, mind you) will have heterosexual sex. This is not an issue of whether people should or shouldn't have sex (heterosexual or otherwise). It's an issue that arrises after people have had heterosexual sex, and after a pregnancy has been confirmed. Denying people the right to express their healthy sexuality will just make this world even more sexually repressed and lead to more problems like molestation and rape and abuse. After all, we were designed to have sex, mentally and physically. It's the most important thing we are designed to do after eating, drinking and breathing are taken care of.

2) I'm pro choice because i don't beleive i (or anyone else) has the right to take away someone else's right to choose for themself what is best in his or her own life. That's the most important point I can think of in regards to almost _any_ debate. "Who is anyone to take away anyone else's rights?"

3) I'm very liberal politically... i beleive that people should ultimately choose for themselves what they want to do, provided that it doesn't harm other people. (ie: i don't beleive that murder or rape or abuse or the like should be legal!)

4) I'm not thrilled with the idea of abortion. It just doesn't go easy on my conscience that we end potential lives... but still this gut-feeling is not nearly enough to overthrow my rational understanding that pro choice is the only logical way to go. I would never vote to make something like abortion illegal.

5) With a little resentment, i don't agree with people saying "it's only the woman's decision, and the man has nothing to do with it." If my girlfriend and i were ever to become pregnant (from each other), i would consider it just as much my own doing as hers, since we're both 50% responsible. I would want a say in what we'd do about it (i would suggest that she carry him or her to term, and that we keep the child), but i would understand that the ultimate decision rests with her, i would support her 100% of the way in whatever she wants to do. She's in college and i'm a recent graduate. I would be able to look after the baby while she's in school, and still not be in financial difficulty either way. If this were not the case, and say we were both in highschool and/or flat broke, i would probably not think the same way. Buuuut; situation as it is, i would personally prefer to keep the child and accept what has happened and move on with life, and not feel any less love for my child in any way.

5) A better theoretical alternative to abortion, in my mind, is to promote options... fund better (free) birth control programs, adoption programs and let expectant mothers with unwanted pregnancies know that there is a good range of options. Fund and support good day care programs, so that mothers don't have to give up their babies if they *need* to work, or can't take care of the baby all day themselves. Support day care and parent-training courses for young mothers and fathers who don't have the maturity or skills to take care of a child but for whom abortion and adoption are not acceptable options. Providing a wide range of options is the best way to make things better for everyone.

6) I'm a very stong athiest, and none of my views or values are force fed to me or come from any religious basis incase that's what you are thinking.

7) Abortion will continue whether it's legal or illegal. Just like illegal drug use... just like underage smoking... anything where there is a substantial market demand but no legal market recourse, a black market will develop. A black market which is unregulated, unsafe, often abusive (people can't exactly tell the cops), often deadly (just look at the black market narcotics trade and it's annual death toll in police, dealers, users, others involved, and innocent bystanders), and just a bad thing in general. Keeping abortion legal and regulated, AS AN AVAILABLE OPTION, is the way to save the most lives. Promoting and supporting non-abortive options is how we can best change the world for everyone. That should be the Pro-Life creedo.

8) Removing options (like those who fight for removal of condom dispensers in highschool bathrooms, and the removal of available contraception at school nurses' offices claiming "it will lead to promiscuous sex", meanwhile promoting the anti-abortion agenda...) is NOT THE WAY TO MAKE ANYTHING BETTER!!! If you think about it for a moment, you'll understand that offering MORE options is the ONLY way to a) help prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby skirting this whole issue in up to 99% of cases, and b) help avert pregnancy termination when an unwanted pregnancy does occur. You can't eliminate an issue by eliminating possible solutions. You're only, making it much worse in the end, just to satisfy your own selfish instant-gratification desires. The religious right is particularly bad for this shortsightedness and closedmindedness.

9) The issue of abortion is not so much an issue of femisism and the right a woman has to her body, as it is an issue of humanity and what people consider acceptable. I consider myself to be a feminist. I'm not anti-male (i would be hypocritical, since i am, well, kinda male!) but i am pro-female to a point. I'm feminist in that i consider any woman equal to any male, and i'm pro-female up to that point. I'm pro-female because i feel that equality has not been reached and there is much that must still be done to get us there. I draw the line at the point of considering women any better than men... otherwise we're in a situation of inequality again. But hey, maybe women deserve to run things for a while, since males have held the reigns of almost everything this far.

10) Everyone's opinion is valid. To say that someone's opintion is not valid is again, you voting to take away someone's rights. Nobody is anybody to say that someone else is not entitled to an opinion. The trouble begins when people confuse opinion with fact. Nobody is entitled to certain facts, simply because the 'fact(s)' is(are) not true, however everyone is entitled by default to a fact which is true, simply because it's true, and universal truth can't be revoked for certain people and not others. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which is their own personal beleif or thought regarding an issue. True, opinions can be based on false "facts" in which case you can only point that out to the opinionee, and hope that he or she sees what you mean, and changes their opinion. You can't deny anyone an opinion however. If it really bothers you that they won't accept that the fact(s) they're basing their opinions on is(are) wrong, ignore them.

11) This discussion will go on almost endlessly until everyone just gets tired of it several months down the road. I don't think in the course of it, anyone will change their mind of anything, but several people WILL leave, upset at other people and with battle scars, so it's going to fragment the Chainsaw community i think. I hope nobody lets something like differences in opinion on touchy issues destroy the Chainsaw community spirit like has happened in religions, and politics and countries many times over. Chainsaw is great, so let's not become enemies here, and lets stay true to the original spirit of this place no matter what goes on in the posts, k?

Thanks for hearing me out. Peace and love everyone, Mikal

Reply from: Mikal on 8/2/98 at 12:07PM. Oh shit! hahahaha

Sorry my HTML tags seemed to have some errors in them. I didn't mean to bold or underline everything, just a few things!!!! VERY VERY SORRY!!!! ACK! Please don't think that i feel i'm so important everything i say has to be underlined and bold!!! I'll try to limit this post to just the P tag. ;o)

I also re read my post and noticed that i wasn't finished with #9 and could end up getting myself into an unwanted arguement.

9.1) It's not so much an issue of feminism as it is about what's acceptable to certain people. I know feminists who are personally opposed to abortion, and i know feminists who are pro-choice. The difference between "feminist" and "opposed to abortion" is that it's their personal choice that they wouldn't have an abortion. They would still let other people have one, but they wouldn't be happy about it. They might talk with them to try to get them to consider other options that maybe they didn't think too much about or didn't know existed, but they would never say "you can't have an abortion." Ok, so i guess that's a 1/2 pro-choice attitude, but still, they're very pro feminist and support the advancement of the status of women in society. What i mean to say is that feminism and 'pro-life-ism' (in it's purest form, not the terrorists bombing abortion clinics and shit like that) are not really at odds with each other. People sometimes get confused when they think that true pro-lifers want to force women to have babies, and that women don't have a choice in the matter... like "You had sex you slut, now you have to face the consequences!". That's like the lunatic fringe of the pro life movement... the part that gets all the attention. True pro-lifers (from what i know of them, since i don't count myself among them) are not forcing anyone to do anything. They just don't want people to have abortions when there are other options which don't involve terminating anything or anyone. I get the impression that pro-lifers would rather skirt the issue as well, and provide other life-allowing options, not reduce options which they are usually smart enough to realise will to lead some people to potentially fatal abortion practices.

Thanks for bearing with me yet again! Peace and love all, Mikal

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/2/98 at 12:34PM. "It's the most important thing we are designed to do after eating, drinking and breathing are taken care of."

This is true when scarcity exists... Extreme hunger certainly kills the sex drive. And a starving person will seek food before sex. But in non-scarcity situations, sex is almost always the stronger drive.

"If my girlfriend and i were ever to become pregnant (from each other),"

What kind of crack are you smoking? What the hell does that mean?

"A better theoretical alternative to abortion, in my mind, is to promote options..."

You know, I'd really like to see pro-choice people stop apologizing for abortion. If that's the way you feel, I probably can't change that... But as long as we keep saying "Yes, abortion is terrible, but it's a woman's right", we're helping the anti-choice lobby. If abortion is so terrible, why not make it illegal? There's nothing ethically wrong with abortion. No one should be made to feel guilty for having an abortion or supporting abortion rights.

"The issue of abortion is not so much an issue of femisism and the right a woman has to her body, as it is an issue of humanity and what people consider acceptable."

It's about how much the people who run the country -- *men*, esp. the anti-female religious right -- consider it acceptable to destroy women's lives. How is this not a feminist issue?

"Everyone's opinion is valid. To say that someone's opintion is not valid is again, you voting to take away someone's rights."

What does disagreeing with someone have to do with voting someone's rights away? I don't think what you just said is valid. In fact, I think it's downright stupid. Do you know what "valid" means? It means "well grounded or justifiable, logically correct." How can you say that everyone's opinion is valid? The only reason for argument is the idea that everyone's opinions are *not* well grounded. If everyone's opinions are equally good and right, why are you even bothering to suggest yours? What's wrong with the opinions people already have?

"True, opinions can be based on false "facts" in which case you can only point that out to the opinionee"

OR they can be based on other false opinions. Or on false values.

"I don't think in the course of it, anyone will change their mind of anything, but several people WILL leave, upset at other people and with battle scars, so it's going to fragment the Chainsaw community i think."

Since you said that it's bad to tell someone they're opinion isn't valid. It sounds like you're suggesting we just avoid arguments altogether. When a community depends for its existence on universal *silence* on an issue... It's not a community worth saving. If people are unable to discuss their ideas with each other, what's the point? Should we all just sit around writing nonspecific truisms which won't lead to argument? "Sexism sucks!" "Yeah, sexism sucks!" "Oh you're so right" "No, no, *you're* so right!" How inane.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/2/98 at 12:40PM. "People sometimes get confused when they think that true pro-lifers want to force women to have babies, and that women don't have a choice in the matter..."

Which pro-lifers have *you* been talking to?

I find it funny that you're trying to define what "true pro-lifers" are... Especially when you're so very wrong. I mean, are you really saying that most pro-lifers *don't* want pregnant women forced to give birth? Or is that just what you think "true pro-lifers" should believe?

Reply from: Mikal on 8/2/98 at 2:00PM. Forget it brian. I'm not going to argue with you. You know exactly what i mean, so stop trying to pick a fight about the smallest details. That's exactly what i mean by "Let's not let this destroy the Chainsaw community. Talking trash about people and picking fights won't do any good.

I said what i have to say and i no longer want to be involved with this thread. I don't feel i have to defend my "downright stupidity" to you.

Peace and love to everyone, Mikal

Reply from: taylor k on 8/2/98 at 2:09PM. I think when you are pro-choice you are promoting options. How can you be promoting options when yr insisting that every unwanted baby in this country be born no matter what? Too many pro-lifers have this theory that pro-choice advocates want every zygote in the country dead. Like this one Jack Chick comic I read where this girl goes to get an abortion with her aunt and their car gets a flat tire and the aunt says, "No flat tire is gonna keep us from getting an abortion today!" Abortion is not a hobby! And if you are pro life you should really consider not attacking abortion itself, but what causes unplanned pregnancies in the first place, if sex education was more widespread and frank in this country I'm sure the rate of abortions would go down, as people would learn to practice safer sex and also become more responsible. If more parents took the time of day to talk to their kids and be active in their lives I think the same would happen. I'm not saying that unplanned pregnancies only happen to irresponsible people (there are plenty of responsible people who practice safer sex that end up becoming pregnant), what I'm trying to say is look at the big picture first.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/2/98 at 2:22PM. "Forget it brian. I'm not going to argue with you. You know exactly what i mean, so stop trying to pick a fight about the smallest details."

It's not details, it's most of what you said. Stop trying to play down your opinions.

"I said what i have to say and i no longer want to be involved with this thread."

Gosh, if only we could all just make speeches and then turn and leave at the first sign of criticism, rather than participating in real discussion... Maybe then we could avoid all the arguments which are so damaging to the community.

Reply from: miz_jenn on 8/2/98 at 4:02PM. it's okay tracey...i understand how my post could have been confusing. :)

Reply from: tom on 8/2/98 at 8:33PM. hello, just to throw in my two cents here..... i totally agree with casey. and to approach the issues of rape/incest--the woman definitely has a right to prevent the pregnancy. birth control can be taken 24 hours or less after the action to help prevent the pregnancy. and on the same note, no real measure besides perhaps neutering or spaying is 100% failproof. the pill fails, condoms fail, have tubes tied fails, it all fails. it shows that we can't get around one of the two basic functions of intercourse--to procreate.

Reply from: Brian Crabtree on 8/2/98 at 9:32PM. Of course we can get around it. Lots of women "get around" pregnancy by having abortions. The only way we "can't get around" it is when people like you make laws forcing women to carry pregnancies to term.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 8/2/98 at 9:57PM. How can you say that abortion is ethical, that it is ok to remove a fetus from a womans body, and kill it, but it is unethical to kill a cow? The woman has a choice to abort but the fetus doesn't so why should it be killed? Just as a cow doen't have a choice. That doesn't make sense. And I can see where someone would think that abortion isnt a feminist issue as much as it is a ethics issue. Like being a vegitarian. When someone is either anti-abortion, or pro-life, they may just think it is unethical to abort a fetus. That maybe more important than the woman's rights asspect of abortion to them.

Reply from: raya on 8/2/98 at 10:59PM. I also find it amazing that these people who claim to want to save lives my illegalizing abortions would cause the deaths of many women who would have unsafe abortions. Those women are already living lives, exsiting independently.. I do value their lives more than a fertalized egg. I value my sister's life. I value the life of any women who was raped and became pregnant. I value the life of all women who want to exercise her right to choose.

back