Written by: Mischief on 1/15/98 at 7:16PM. The title is pretty much self explantory...Most of my male punker friends can't stand Bikini kill!!!...They are always barkin that if the lyrics were reversed to suit guys,and was song by persons of the male gener than i would be in the same position as them and not care to listen to it 'cause it's sexist...Well, i love BiKINi KiLl,but i can't help,but agree...But most say..as'well as myself, that they've gotta right to sing about such things,and you don't know what they have dealt with personaly when it comes to lack of equality and being treated like second best due to the fact that they are of the female species...what do you gotta say?'cause i'm sorta feelin brain dead and can't produce a good argumentative based intro*hehe*xoxoxoSUMER

Replies:

Reply from: Ben Ravenn on 1/15/98 at 7:22PM. I've luved Bikini Kill to death ever since I heard them yearz ago, but I definitely agree that if a boi said and wrote some of the same things, just switched the genders, they would be given TONS of shiznit and called sexist pigs & chewed out by everyone. One of my friends even told me that when BK played here about 2 years ago, one of his good friends went and left in the middle of the show because there was so much sexist bullshit going on. Now, I wasn't there and can't verify that, so ya know, believe what ya will. I still luv them to death though.

Reply from: gemma on 1/15/98 at 7:29PM. ok, i can have an argument on this one... after years of males saying whatever they please, and having their sexist comments being known as jokes, a girl band comes along, calls their shit, and goes into girl positive mode. since this is not MALE POSITIVE (like the rest of society) it is seen as threatening and bad. ok, switch the vocals and have a boy sing them... would they really be called sexist on the same terms as you would call bikini kill? cuz even if the lyrics were switched to boy terms, it WOULD NOT BE THE OPPOSITE AND ITS INCOMPARIBLE.... would the same percentage of boys experienced rape first hand? incest? bikini kill is a confrontational band, and they are outright in there beleifs, but it comes from a different place than boys sexism... girl positive is not boy friendly all the time, my dears...

Reply from: Leigh on 1/15/98 at 7:37PM. BK isn't reverse sexism at all. they've taught me so much about standing up for myself. its all girl-positive and i think its sorta nice that they want the girls upfront at their shows. i'm only 5' and at most shows i go to i wind up behing some super-tall guy who moshes and elbows me repeatedly.

Reply from: carl on 1/15/98 at 7:37PM. bikini kill to me has been the greatest teacher in my life. it made me aware of womens issues and that i should keep and always treat women with resect. even though i am a guy, they have helped believe in myself, and that just because i am not normal in other peoples eyes i still deserve respect. that individualiy, confidence, and belief in myself is the most important aspect, plus, they punk rock my socks.

Reply from: girlwonder on 1/15/98 at 7:38PM. the fact is that boys aren't saying it...girls are and there is NO such thing as reverse sexism.it doesn't exist.just as there is no such thing as reversed racism...if you don't agree then i am gonna assume that you are a white middle class boy/girl and you need to rethink a lot of things.a person who is oppressed by a group can not turn around and oppress that group as well.the oppressed group actions and opinions are reactionary.ugh.i can't go into this now but if you wanna hear more about why i feel this way just ask...i have been getting annoyed by posting stuff and it beign ignored.if you want to hear my specific opinion ask.thanks...gracie

Reply from: lisa on 1/15/98 at 7:42PM. ugh i'm so sick of hearing about how bikini kill is supposedly reverse sexist. i don't see ANYTHING in their music that is even close to being sexist. being girl positive is not the same thing as being anti-male. and it's not the same thing for a boy band to sing male-pride songs because, duh, our society is already saturated with male pride and we sure as hell don't need any more of it. women, on the other hand, are still discriminated against and told to hate ourselves every fucking day, and we NEED to have some girl power in our lives. this isn't coming out how i wanted it to because i'm really tired, but i hope i got my point across. xo lisa

Reply from: shanna on 1/15/98 at 7:43PM. in my opinion there is no such thing as reverse sexism and i think that this is the arguement that many men who hate bikini kill are getting at. bikini kill has the right to scream/sing about what they want to and the fucked up shit that they have experienced or witnessed growing up in a society which devalues women. and anyone who says that these women are just bitching about things that no longer apply ("Well women are in the workforce") they just need to open their eyes. if you do not agree with the issues that bk addresses or how they chose to address them then do not listen to their music. i know that i am sounding heated for no reason but that is just the kind of mood that i am in:) but basically the concept of reverse sexism reminds me of the kinds of things people say regarding club organizations centered around issues for people of color. many people say well if we had an all white organization people would look down upon it. well the truth is that it is healthly for people of color to have these organizations just as it is healthy for women to rock on women issues. voices are needed. and it is different for men to have their own clubs in which they get to put down women because that kind of bullshit has been occuring since the beginning of time...and plus isn't that what frats are for... love shanna ps--i'm not pissed just dramatic:)

Reply from: Mischief on 1/15/98 at 7:55PM. EEGAD KIddies!!I love BIKINI KILL!!They let were my salvation and rage outlet for whenever i was feeling under the weather and just not in the mood for any SHite!!My x-girly,and i sang every one of their songs on Karaoke as'well.sorry if some of you took this post the wrong way*Lion wip extended back(((spspsp))*I told you my brain was mush at the moment...I was neither defending them 'nor sticking up for 'em...i didn't feel it was necessary to present a opinion swaying argument...SImple question!...no reason to rip my favorite shirt,and chew on my elbows DAMnIt!!;)Thank you for giving me something to print out and hand out to theise guys though!!even if you all just about ate me for dinner;)MORE POWER TO ALL MY FEROCIOUS FRIENDS!!!*hehe*xoxoxoSUMER

Reply from: besson on 1/15/98 at 7:55PM. i agree that if things were reversed that bikini kill would be in some shit...but because they are shouting with the short stick in their hand they have the luxury of having a crowd who can relate and who is desperate to absorb what THEY personally couldnt say....or didnt have the opportunity to say..fortunately the bikini kill l members have taken the torch and is leading the way...now...if you are holding the short end of the stick... is it just to be sexist?...no...but it works both ways...they shout at us...and we shout back....does it solve anything...i dont know...but i feel a hella lot better.....besson

Reply from: besson on 1/15/98 at 7:57PM. i agree that if things were reversed that bikini kill would be in some shit...but because they are shouting with the short stick in their hand they have the luxury of having a crowd who can relate and who is desperate to absorb what THEY personally couldnt say....or didnt have the opportunity to say..fortunately the bikini kill l members have taken the torch and is leading the way...now...if you are holding the short end of the stick... is it just to be sexist?...no...but it works both ways...they shout at us...and we shout back....does it solve anything...i dont know...but i feel a hella lot better.....besson

Reply from: Mischief on 1/15/98 at 8:01PM. Oh gracie!!Just to let ya know...i'm a poor...so poor that my family can't afford to move off of this navy base...and if we got kicked outta our house my brothers and i would be split up and living with differant relatives in such places as Oregon,and L.A.,and i'm 1/2 white&APACHE AND CHAKTA native american...far from ya assumptions...You're one red hot burnin coal sweety!!I totally respect,and admire your passion,but in this case it wasn't really necessary*stroking gracies hair*"sshhh,calm down,calm down...it's okay"*xoxoSUMER

Reply from: shanna on 1/15/98 at 8:20PM. mischief i hope you weren't thinking that i was jumping down your throat cause i knew where you were coming from and stuff...:)what i wrote wasn't to anyone in particular:) --love shanna

Reply from: Andrew on 1/15/98 at 9:27PM. I love Bikini Kill. They write really good songs about individuality, believing in yourself, and sticking up for your beliefs. Most people regardless of gender can relate to that. You're not gonna find those themes on a NOFX record. I've never picked up on ANTI-male themes in the songs. They're obviously pro-female, but doesn't necessarily make them anti-male. They might be, I don't know, I'm only interpreting them. And so what if they are? I think I can deal with it. It's just a song. :)

Reply from: girlwonder on 1/16/98 at 10:05AM. mischeif-i guess i AM one hot burning coal...but when i use the word "you"i am not talkingabout one person.and my comment wasn't directed mainly AT you.it really wasn't directed at anyone you know?oh well,i hope you didn't take personal offense.xoxo gracie

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/16/98 at 11:11AM. isn't this debate over yet? Right on to most of the people who posted before me, especially girlwonder. Read "oppression" by Marilyn Frye if you need clarification, I'm tired of explaining 24-7. We all need to be clear on how this stuff works.

Reply from: carl on 1/16/98 at 11:22AM. i bet tobi and kathleen would help us flip vanilla ice's van. we should ask them! then billy k and kathi could just kick him as he tried to escape!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/16/98 at 12:53PM. to the top

Reply from: Louisa Lucky on 1/16/98 at 1:43PM. Look, I am sick and tired of explaining this, and I agree with what Gracie Girlwonder had to say. If you don't get why there is no such thing as reverse racism and reverse sexism, it would be a good idea to try to get yr hands on the BIKINI KILL zines. It clearly spells this out for you. PREDJUDICE + POWER=OPPRESSION. Need I say who's got tha power... PS-I know its hard to get those zines at this point and I'm not saying"if you don't have it yr not a real BK fan" or something stupid like that.

Reply from: ednie on 1/16/98 at 2:16PM. Heya mischief! I wanted to respond to your friends' comments because...well, this tends to be a way many young men respond to women who protest a little too loudly. It's as common in Women's Studies classes here at WSU as is the response of many of the women that they aren't feminsts because feminists don't like men (what a load of crock! When I hear that I KNOW the person making the claim has no clue what feminism is). Anyway, I guess my response to the accusation of BK as reverse sexist and the example to prove the point (that a boy band would be slaughtered for such behavior) is really moot. Of course in this day and age a boy band that functioned as a verbal, political voice for mysogyny would be slaughtered--we're all too wonderfully liberal humanists to allow such out and out oppressive expression (while cautious of the analogy, you might say it's as taboo as actually SAYING that people of color are inferior and deserve to have all their rights taken away). However, it's not clear nor logical to say that bk is reverse sexist because they aren't about hatred of men (notice that there really isn't even a term for that) and the accusation is meant to obfuscate the issues entirely. As many of the posters here have noted, bk's message is "girl positive" and that does NOT = sexism (it's sexism no matter who pracitices it, there's no reverse to it, unless you mean to NOT BE sexist). What you and many of us witness when (often white and male) people get twitchy about any form of feminist expression is really an expression of fear and anxiety about the loss of control, power and cetrality that person or persons feels he/they are entitled to. What's really sad, more even than the fact that in 1998 people are still so damn backwards, is that we as feminists are not taught how to counter these anxiety-ridden complaints. And I think that often goes back to the way women in this culture are raised to be "nice" and to LISTEN to what sexist men (and women) say. I say we all need to start with the response "you're argument is illogical." and develop a critique of those claims that will support that claim. .... So, Mischief, this is totally not menat to make you feel bad. I'm REALLY glad you brought this up because it's an issue I care about and think about A LOT. As a feminist scholar and teacher I'm always having to deal with people who want to challenge my beliefs and in order to not totally give up and either 1) become a pawn of the capitalist, imperialist, racist patriarchy and/or 2) kill myself I have to find ways of countering those attacks. The best responses I've come up with (seriously) are "that's so stupid!" (boys, in particular can't stand to be called stupid) and "oh give me a break! Your uneducated knee-jerk response is clearly a sign you know nothing about the subject!" (this also works for people who start foaming at the mouth about affirmative action being reverse racism). And for those who are tired of doing this educating work--if you think we're going to get to a point where it's no longer necessary, then you're living in a world of make believe. It never stops; I faced a new group of students on Tuesday and say, immediately, that I have to start all over once again. We live in a culture that doesn't encourage strength or integrity, but complacency. It's disheartening, yeah, but it's dangerous to fool ourselves otherwise. xoxoednie

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/16/98 at 2:22PM. Louisa---hola chicito!!DO you have em?Can ya hook me up if so...Go's Xerox the suckers,and staple 'em email me for my addy...i always try to keep up with all of thiese books,and little tid bit reading materials that our recommeneded all the time...Sheesh!there's so many;)..oh,but you doing this for me would be highly appreciated!!.....CARL****hey silly boy;P...we should get circus circus to hook us up with elephants,and they could pick up Vanilla and smash him all about the place...and then we can record it all and sell the rights to Fox,and they can make a new "realism" based show..."When Wild Animals Attack Has Been Pop Stars";)*mwah*xoxoSUMER...........OH, to everyone who apologized...especially gracie..Just miscommunication on both our parts...*HUGS*'cause there was never anything to argue about;)TOODLES FIESTY ONES*grawl*xoxoSUMER=^..^=

Reply from: girlwonder on 1/16/98 at 2:33PM. you can get the bikini kill zines(an excerpt)out of a recent issue of outpunk...it is an anthology.

Reply from: lisa on 1/16/98 at 2:34PM. ok this is from bikini kill zine #2. "our culture is based on the idea that there are only two ways to be (in any given situation) IN CONTROL or OUT CONTROL, THE FUCKED or THE FUCKER, a person WHO KNOWS WHO THEY ARE or someone in the process of AN IDENTITY CRISIS. our society trains us to be so anti-confrontational cuz we think this means one person (usually the CONFRONTER) is "right" and the other (CONFRONTED) must be "wrong". we are afraid of arguing cuz we see everything in terms of winning/losing instead of terms of understanding each other. this is where the idea of reverse sexism came from. men get threatened by feminists cuz they think we are accusing them of being "wrong" instead of trying to help them understand how WE feel about things and see our points of views on things. we want them to empathize with us so that they can change those behaviors of theirs that are hurting us. we need to move beyond this archaic concentration on blame and move on, towards change. it seems in most conversations about sexism, men immediately wanna take the focus off of how sexism affects women and put it onto how feminism affects THEM. and once again, men are placed in the middle of the action, as the central characters, his needs come first, you know? so, essentially, the cry of "reverse sexism" is just another form of sexism. he's making a judgement, he thinks we do everything to affect, offend, push HIS buttons, never for our own sakes. we are obviously screaming, he thinks, to hurt his ears, and not because we are genuinely in serious pain. if a guy starts saying you are reverse sexist, he is obviously threatened by what you are doing. he's threatened because cuz he thinks there are only two ways to be, powerful or powerless. he assumes you asserting your right to experiment, fuck around, have fun and scream when you gotta, is an attempt to take power away from him. he assumes you wanna "switch places" with him. he knows you get treated like shit, he knows he gets advantages from your imposed feelings of inferiority (it makes him feel like a big man) he's fearing REVENGE, girlffriend. his fear of "reverse sexism" is basically an admitation, on his part, that he knows you get treated like shit and he does not want to switch places with you. power+prejudice=oppression it is not possible for oppressed people to turn around and "oppress" cuz we don't have the power, economic power, weapon power, confidence power, media power. and yes we are mad...we have damn good reasons to be mad. but why do so many people assume that people who have lived thru this shit want to turn around and "do it" to them? i mean, is this guilty conscious stuff, or what? the assumption that because someone is pro-girl means that they are anti-male is stupid, insulting and LAME. why is the emphasis always put on how a feminist feels about men and not on how she feels about herself and other women? we talk about men all the time and the fucking second we start talking about ourselves, it gets turned around on us, and again, we are talking about men. and also, while i'm at it....instead of telling me my anger is a sign of reverse sexism, why not inquire into the larger system which forces us to protect ourselves, and thus, be leery of men??? why not ask WHY DO THEY OPPRESS US instead of always asking WHY DO WE RESIST? of course we will resist, and of course we are pissed off. duh."

Reply from: Mischief on 1/16/98 at 2:35PM. HEY ednie!!Thank you very much!!that was very innovativing to me ,and most likely others;)*applauseapplause*It didn't even come across like a pesonal attack...geewiz,your wonderfuly brilliant...i better stop or your brain may swell*hehe*Oh,but i think it's great that you're a teacher,and i feel very lucky to have had someone like yourself take the time to extemporize on this topic;)(not to make all of theise passionate,and wonderful posts feel insignificant 'cause they are not*)oh,but thanx once again;)*hugs*xoxoxoSUMER

Reply from: Mischief on 1/16/98 at 2:39PM. HAY LISA!!!*Mwah*you're an angel my dear!!thank you!!!!xoxoSUMER

Reply from: lisa on 1/16/98 at 2:55PM. hehe yr welcome, sumer. xo lisa

Reply from: esk on 1/16/98 at 3:30PM. in response to ednie: interesting post! i just have one detail to quibble over: your statement "it's sexism no matter who practices it, there's no reverse to it." strangely enough, we just talked about this in my ethics of diversity class half an hour ago. :) i argue that terms like "sexism," "racism," etc. are ONLY applicable to instances of prejudice against traditionally oppressed groups, because oppression requires a power imbalance, not just an unfair judgment based on skin color, gender, sexual orientation, etc. i like marilyn frye's POV - that using the term "oppression" to describe the (imho justified) rage of minorities against their oppressors takes away the power and preciseness of the word. anyway, all i've eaten today is two pieces of toast and i haven't slept in 48 hours (well, i dozed a bit in lecture today), so forgive me if i'm not coherent.

Reply from: punkrockdyke on 1/16/98 at 4:30PM. HELLO!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!? I'm so sick of men whining reverse sexism. They have been given rights and privaliges since the day they were born whether they realize it or not! I have never heard Bikini kill (or any other feminist band, including my own) say anything like , 'let's refuse to serve men at this restarant' or 'only females should be allowed to go to college' or something like that. If we seem a bit outspoken, it's because we HAVE TO BE! We have to work 6x as hard to get the same treatment as a man these days in many situations! Saying this is reverse sexism is like saying there shouldn't be groups like the NAACP! Reverse racism...wahhhhhh....it's not fair! THAT's WHERE YOU ARE WRONG! None of us are militant and shooting down men in the street! Bikini Kill, reverse sexism? Does it scare you that we don't need you? HARDLY!

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/16/98 at 4:40PM. i'm a girl..xosumer

Reply from: Dave Negation on 1/17/98 at 9:48AM. I don't think that BK are reverse sexist... Maybe they're not always the most tackful group in the way they phrase their arguements, but this is punk rock we're talking about!... If individual men feel that an attack on patriarchy is neccessarily an attack on their person, it's generally because they have opted into & assimilated the values of our society of white, male dominance (not saying I'm free of this myself). Maybe through being "offended" by groups like Bikini Kill they'll learn a thing or two. Crying "reverse sexism" is avoiding the real issues. I don't think I've encountered anything that could be considered "reverse sexist" except perhaps SCUM MANIFESTO if taken literally (which wasn't Solanas's intention)...

Reply from: jefff on 1/17/98 at 11:09AM. okay this thread reminds me alot of the "single sex" / "single race" class discussion, where we talked alot about how ppl felt threatened by the creation on womens studies and african american studies classes in higher education. like everyone said its all about white male society's (which i am a reluctant member) anxiety about a lose of control. how they feel like their position is threatened, which it is, and they suddenly lash out because it *scares them.* okay so ednie yr post was sooo articulate and rad. and thanks lisa for printing that becuz i have never gotten a chance to read that. who is it written by, or doesnt it say. about the whole idea o reverse sexism/racism. is it posible do u think for a single individual to resist opression and thus have the power to opress others, or does a persons race/gender/class limit there ability by birth to be an opressive force? note i am *not* saying that feminism is reverse sexism by nature be cause i would have serious issues with somone who took that position miself. thats all, oh and this thead is rad, so put it back up it the top.

Reply from: GW on 1/17/98 at 12:10PM. dave your point is so right on!you fucking go brother!xoxo gracie

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/17/98 at 12:17PM. jefff, the thing from bikini kill zine was written by kathleen hanna. that was only part of a big article that i think is really good. like someone already mentioned, the whole article was reprinted in outpunk #6, so if anyone's interested you can read it there. xo lisa

Reply from: taylor k on 1/17/98 at 2:54PM. the guys I know who like bikni kill (very few of 'em) tell me this, "Bikini Kill is not singing those words towards every single male in the world, their singing it to the oppressive fucked up males, and I hate those oppressive fucked up males too." And I don't think Bikini Kill is singing against men but against a principle of absolute male dick power, women subordination and overall injustice. How could they be vehemently against men if there's a boy in the band?

Reply from: girlwonder on 1/17/98 at 2:58PM. would anyone like me to print up the article that was in outpunk from kathleen hanna for them?it is straight out of hte BK zines.i owuld be more than willing ot share that info...but keep in mind that it comes out of a rad zine that you can still order through outpunk so...you can get it there with lotsa other rad articles from queer zines past and present.xoxo gracie

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/17/98 at 6:21PM. to the top!

Reply from: jake L. on 1/17/98 at 6:28PM. I remeber reading in the Heartattack that had the Dana rape discussion this one letter telling Kent that the BK song on the Give Me Back was reverse sexism and that BK could suck his dick right along with Kent. I think just by sticking by there guns and never backing out of confrontation it would be hard not to respect them, even if you don't like there music. BK are/were a tremendous band that have taught me and some friends so many things. The amount of people they've touched is a testament of how great they are/were. and at least they got a lot of people (boys like me) thinking

Reply from: girlwonder on 1/17/98 at 6:32PM. jake-are into hardcore stuff?just curious.um,i like hte things you have to say.right on.feel free to email me if you want.ugh. gracie

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/17/98 at 9:38PM. top

Reply from: Ben Ravenn on 1/17/98 at 11:36PM. Reading all these messages are freaking me out. I guess it's just the basic attitude that Bikini Kill invoke is easily (mis?) construed as sexist. (not "reverse sexism" cuz I think all oppression/exploitation is the same, period.) When I said that if one switched the lyrics to be the other way around, I was mostly referring to "Don't Need You." Say some snotty boi punk band wrote a song that was like " Don't Need Your Tits To Suck, Don't Need Sub-miss-ion... Does it is Scare You Grrlz, That We Don't Need You?" (to clarify- first line- opposite of don't need yr dick to fuck, second line- counters the things about protection) ...they oh-so-definitely would be chewed out by grrlz and boiz a like. BUT, I never really said I had a PROBLEM with BK's lyrics. I understand why she screams the things she does (well...usually), and even if I think they're fucked up, or wrong sometimes, I can still sing along with them and see where she's coming from. It's kinda like how I can sing along with Earth Crisis about killing vivisectors or rapists, but that doesn't mean I think its right- I just understand their viewpoint. And oh yeah, I guess I'll just throw in that I don't girl-power at all means anti-male. And, while I'm just throwing things in now, I think I'll tell ya that reading some of these responses just freaks me out... I feel like some of you are so angry yr just waiting for the chance to pounce on anyone or any idea that could have any possible sexist implications, almost like yr seeking out things to attack. Does anyone else sense this or is my telepathic sense off tonight? (prob'ly all that damn tofu I had earlier....)

Reply from: mariah on 1/18/98 at 0:30AM. i think its important for us to remember that the reality of our society and its fucked up dynamics are a seperate thing from what we understand as being the truth and what we identify with and feel. i think the missing link in understanding "sexism/reverse sexism" is that we know that women are not less. we know women are people who can be kind and oppressive and creative and crabby and everything else like any other human. but the fuckin grim reality is that on a macro level, that is not understood. this world is still just as sexist as it was before women were oh so liberated from their own oppression. this little scene we're in is still so fuckin oppressive, even though it is more clear about not being that way, we still are living in this world, and we can not deny that we are shaped, in every aspect of our lives, to some degree, by our environments. i don't think of myself as a girl. i think of myself as mariah. but the rest of the world sees me for all my statistical features: poor dyke girl. this is not my identity, but it is my looking glass. i think that's where the canyon lies between girls and boys on the issue of feminism or equalism or whatever you want to call it. if you are a boy, no matter how fucking ausome you are, how understanding, how concious, how emo, how punk, how educated, you do not understand what it is to be a woman. and there is no word in any fucking language to even begin to describe what it is like. mind you all, i don't feel bad for myself. i don't feel pity for womankind. i think that unless we can all see the fucking light shed upon the intricate structure of who gets power who gets fucked little graph that no one talks about and no one really wants to admit is there, then we will never understand each other. if kathleen hannah wants to bite somebodies dick off, then so be it. i feel that same way about five times every day and i'm not going to say i don't. we cannot define oppressions in the same way. women are not afforded the power to be sexist, people of color are not afforded the power to be racist. this stands true in a seperate structure that we did not create. but we still live under it. we can't forget that the rest of the world is not like the world inside of our zines or our shows or our bedrooms. we are still affected by it. its exactly what we are fighting. everything is still the same and we can't forget that. i don't define every boy i know as a boy, i see him as a person. but i also understand the power that he has and the privelage that is his to not have to understand the *lack* of power that i have. we are not doing this for shits and giggles, this is a survival technique. if any one person does not understand my need to visualize castration or bra burning from time to time, then they are not listening. *m.

Reply from: esk on 1/18/98 at 1:13AM. what mariah said! :)

Reply from: xsarcasmx on 1/18/98 at 3:06AM. well, here's my two cents on this whole thing... (some of it, at least) there is a difference between prejudice and discrimination--namely, discrimination is putting your prejudice into action. discrimination is something that you have to be in a relative position of power to engage in, but prejudice isn't. thoughts are your own. your acting on them is something entirely different. and the terms "reverse racism" and "reverse sexism" are bullshit, in my opinion. if you're ranking one group above another, it's racist. or it's sexist. end of story. i will shut up now.

Reply from: jefff on 1/18/98 at 11:33AM. mm this thread is so good. ive had serious issues in mi head about the idea of opression versus personal impowernment for a long time, and the past few comments have reall helped. mariah- what is the emo/sensitive boy to do? is it like carrie talks about in caluculated. understanding ones own privledge and reall fucking using it to help change social attitudes and ideas? to raise ones own consiousness to include other points of view, *trying* to phathom what it must be like to be in another persons shoes? this is how i aproach mi gender. and it makes being a boy (with all the male bullshit) allitle easier. you all rock. case closed.

Reply from: lisa on 1/18/98 at 12:27PM. ben, yes i am incredibly angry and i will attack anything i see as sexist (or racist, classist, etc.). but i don't seek out sexism, it's just there, everywhere. all i have to do is open my eyes and i'm confronted with more sexist bullshit. how could i not be really pissed off? xo lisa

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/18/98 at 12:54PM. Ben: after changing the lyrics to don't need you, the meaning, message, whatever! changes entirely..can't you see that? why would men revolt against the womyn who have oppressed them? women have not [as a group] oppressed men. i'm really simplifying things, but..

Reply from: prd on 1/18/98 at 4:14PM. EXACTLY!

Reply from: mariah on 1/19/98 at 1:34AM. jeffff*no idea what a sensitive emo boy is to do. i've never been one. in my humble and inexperienced opinion, however: one should never expect a gold star for their efforts to further the liberation of people who are not like them. ie: a white person doesn't get special rewards for being nonracist. a man does not get a pat on the back for having women friends or his willingness to "learn" about mysoginy. that is like thanking someone for *not abusing* us. which is totally fucked up. the real merit lies in the things that you go to selfless lengths to understand because they are truthful and fair. the best thing we can do is remain who we are and learn to treat everyone else like we would treat ourselves, with the same intricacies we know that we possess, with a view of everyone's stories and knowledge and fears and intentions. if we remember to respect and validate the reality of everyones' experiences but love and understand each other outside of those definitions, i think we'll really be getting somewhere *stepping off my soapbox* ~mariah.

Reply from: jeff on 1/19/98 at 10:02AM. mariah- yeah that makes alot of sense. and i guess i have been tring to live by that for a long time. its hard to become consious of the racism and sexism with in your own head, and i guess that is the real test no matter who or what u are. and i tottaly agree that the process is only valid if it is a selfless one. there are no "gold stars" as you so aptly put it. take care, jeff

Reply from: mariah on 1/20/98 at 0:53AM. yes, i didn't want that to seem as though i think i have the last word on ending oppression or even as if i am non biased and well balanced enough to live by my own words. but hey, we can all hope yes? at least we can be concious of our privelages and powers, i so often see boys overlooking the power they have as owners of penises, because they feel that they live within some punk rock dream world completely seperate from the fucked up hierarchy that still exists. sometimes, it is more blaringly obvious to girls, even within a scene such as this, because they are bombarded with it whether they choose to surround themselves with it or not. it doesn't matter where you are or who you are, as long as you're a girl, its a surefire way to attract sexist hoots and mysoginistic hollers. so i think it is a luxury to not think about oppression or self defense or escape mechanisms or whether you're skirt is too short or its too late to be out or you wore too much lipstick. i don't think women need to be pitied, just understood. if anything, this scene need not be a "safe place" where we all live in lala land, we just need to be each other's allies and not question the things which threaten us just because they involve us....does that make any sense? i feel like a preacher and i'm so fucking tired i could start drooling all over the keyboard right now.... anyways, love and sweet dreams, mariah.

Reply from: Adam on 1/20/98 at 6:41AM. Ok, i will make a bold statement here...reverse racism does exist. For example, there are certain members the black community who believe the Jews are out to get them...I consider this racist, and it is an "oppresed minority" who is doing it. maybe that isn't your definition of reverse racism, or maybe the jews have the power and the predjudice, what with their Protocols of the Elders of Zion and all, but i really don't think so...

Reply from: girlwonder on 1/20/98 at 9:07AM. adam-when i saw that reverse sexism exists i am talking about females oppressing men.it doesn't happen.when i say reversed reacism doesn't exiast i am talking about black oppressing whites.i am certainly not saying that people from minority races don't have predjuices.i understand that.that is NOT what i am talking about.that isn't REVERSE racism.that is racism plain and simple.do yu know what i mean?i am talking about an oppressed minority oppressing their oppressor back.black can not oppress white inthis country.asian can not oppress white int the country.women can not oppress men in this country.now women can oppress queer because they blong to the hetero majority that is oppressive of queer culter.now when i talk about racism and sexiam i am NOT taling about prejudice.i beleive that some prejudices are justified.the prejudices that an oppressed group has about their oppressors is justified THAT is why it is NOT racism or sexism or whatever ism you wanna talk about.you know?...gracie

Reply from: fontanelle on 1/20/98 at 9:44AM. you're right...there is no such thing as reverse sexism or reverse racism because any form of oppression based on sex or race is hate, and to believe that only those who are the power structure are capable of hate or that those who are not a part of the power structure are hating as a result of being hated is to excuse the inhumanity of all prejudice...to deny that a minority group that actively expresses hate toward another minority or even a majority is being egocentric or ethnocentric is to buy into the original white lie..."that bitch fucking asked for it"

Reply from: Nicole on 1/20/98 at 11:21AM. I just want to add that racism, sexism, + other forms of oppression work in complex interweaving ways + it's not always about hatred in the typical definition of hatred way. Like I know tons of extremely racist white people who do not HATE blacks, Latinos, Asians, etc etc etc...It's all about POWER. A lot of times people talk about racism with this talk show mentality (I don't mean SPECIFICALLY here, but in general), by which I mean like on talk shows when they drag out the KKK members or the white mother who doesn't want her white daughter dating a black guy cuz she says "black people aren't as good as white people" or something + it's all very simple, 2 sides the extreme racists on stage versus the good non-racist audience + everyone throws their 2 cents in + everyone claps + feels really self righteous + knows who the good guys + bad guys are. Racism is dealt with as being about individual people not liking a certain group, when really it's our whole power structure, our country (well, if yr US American like me) was founded on racism + our national identity is soaking in it. White supremist notions pollute everyone of us, I don't believe anyone is non-racist, everyone has internalized racism. The question is whether you wanna deal with it in yrself + society as a whole or if you wanna stay comfortable. I strayed from my point about hate. A white person can believe that "Latinos are hot tempered" (thank you Brandon Walsh...first thing that popped into my head is a line from 90210...) or WHATEVER + have Latino friends they love very much while still having racist beliefs + acting in oppressive ways. Maybe that was a bad example. Anyway. In fact we all have racist ideologies embedded in our brains, or sometimes WHITE SUPREMACY is a more useful term...this includes people of all races. I hope I am making sense. This all goes for sexism too, + homophobia.... Fontanelle, this isn't addressed at you, it isn't necessarily disagreeing w/ yr post at all , I know a lot of this doesn't directly relate to yr post, I'm not sure exactly what you meant about the HATE thing(first day of 2nd semester classes + little sleep + all that, sorry))but it brought up some points I think are important. PS. There's no "reverse" sexism, racism, etc (what's really cool is when people complain about "reverse homophobia", WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?!") + Women can't be sexist against men + all that stuff everyone else already said...that doesn't mean women can't have internalized sexism or misogyny+ use it against themselves...Hope this wasn't too incoherant

Reply from: um, it's Nicole again on 1/20/98 at 11:24AM. It could totally be argued that the hypothetical white guy who has racist sterortypes about Latinos but still has Latino friends DOES in fact HATE them, if you wanna have an alternative definition of hatred. I'm not about to make that argument, but that could make sense. I'm always open.

Reply from: ednie on 1/20/98 at 3:26PM. Sorry I've been away, but it was the weekend and I refused to come to campus to play with computers!:) Anyway, I wanted to respond to esk's response to my post. I really appreciated your comments, like everyone else's because it's a clear sign that people here really CARE about these issues. That's so absolutely evident here and I'm just elated! I guess the way I view the terms "reverse racism" and "reverse sexism" is as naturalizing concepts--they insist that forms of oppression like sexism and racism ONLY travel one way--from men to women and/or whites to people of color. In other words, the assumption is, when a black person is accused of reverse racism or bk are accused of reverse sexism, that racism and sexism are NATURALLY the predisposition only of men and white people. This then assumes that racism and sexism among whites and men CANNOT be ABOLISHED. That's got to be pure bullshit. I don't believe oppression, prejudice, discrimination, xenophobia, ethnocentrism, etc. are BILOGICALLY DETERMINIED. EEECK. What a scary thought--that means we have nothing to hope for. Also, I'd like to say that expression of anger directed at patriarchy by women (or even individual men by individual women) is NOT sexism. It's sexist when you have the power to oppress. And I really don't believe that is the goal of bk or its individual members. Like many posters have said, the belief that bk promote sexism is a knee-jerk response to insecurity and anxiety about losing power and of losing sense of "how things are." I'd also like to say to Mariah--WAHOO!!! (this is not to say I don't also appreciate what everyone else is saying, but Mariah's first long post just completely jibed with me) I'm totally digging your rant. Finally, I just got news today that I'm going to be teaching my class, "Third Wave Feminism," at Evergreen this summer and I would just die and go to heaven (not that I'm a big advocate of heaven) if everyone here was in it. I just LVOE how you guys get into these discussions. I want you all to come hang out and talk about this stuff this summer. xoxoednie ps I'm probably going to print this stuff off and refer to it in my dissertation. If anyone is opposed to being cited, please let me know. If anyone has anything they want to add and they don't want to post it here, please email. Also, I'm always looking for people to interveiw. If you want to be, just let me know. Oh yeah, my diss. is on Third Wave feminism and feminist consciousness among young women.

Reply from: taylor k on 1/20/98 at 4:04PM. I agree with pretty much what everyone is saying.....discrimination, sexism, racism isn't just white against black or man against woman or straight against gay it works all the way around. The thing that bothers me though is that a lot of "majority" groups lately have been bitching about how they have become the victims of discrimination. I just want to say, "How does thirty years of affirmative action even begin to compare to two hundred years of slavery and one hundred years of Jim Crowe law?" And is discrimination a word being thrown around too much? Sometimes it seems that our answer to so many things is "discrimination" when I think there's something else behind it all...but I don't know...what do you guys think?

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/21/98 at 10:58AM. top

Reply from: ednie on 1/21/98 at 1:17PM. Taylor, your point is well taken. I have a friend who has a theory about Americans and victimization. According to this friend, Americans are, by their own definition, the ultimate victims (if you study the revolutionary war, the Civil war, etc. you'll find the rhetoric of victimization is prevalent--first it was the colonists against the evil British empire, then it was the north against the evil slave-holding south, or the south against the do-gooderm and more wealthy north. Even the constitution includes this rhetoric. And during the Revolution and early formation of the nation our "founding FATHERS" appropriated the image and status of the Indian to construct itself both as independent and ecceptional AND as victim.) Anyway, this friend of mine views the angry white man (and woman) syndrome as yet another claim to ultimate victimhood. I don't know about you, but to me it makes a lot of sense. I'm trying to figure out how this argument could be articulated within the power/victim debates among feminists in the 80s. I'm jsut free-associating here. I hope I'm not sounding like a complete idiot:) xoxoednie

Reply from: taylor k on 1/21/98 at 1:22PM. about giving feminist boys pats on the back and gold stars....I have to admit that I really applaud those few boys who are into things like feminism and aren't sexist and chauvinist. Lots of people say we shouldn't give them applause because I guess we're a little skeptical about it, I'm not too sure, but if a boy proves to me that he does care about girl stuff and isn't a sexist chauvinist asshole, then I do applaud him. Its because I run into so few of them that when I do I'm just won over. So many men are stuck in the dark ages when it comes to sexism, even a lot of those who consider themselves to be open minded about it often display chauvinistic frat boy behavior. I mean it must be really hard to grow up to become a feminist boy in such a sexist world.....I don't know, that's just how I feel.....

Reply from: ednie on 1/21/98 at 7:09PM. Jeez! I just took a look at what I wrote earlier and I just ahve to say, you gotta excuse me! I'm an american studies major and so everything I say seems to go right back to my idoctrination in the study of this ass-backwards country. I must seem like some kind of freak to ya'all. I gottas get my head out of books and ideas. what a loser (laughing hysterically to myself) ednie

Reply from: mariah on 1/22/98 at 1:01AM. taylor...er whoever just posted up there before ednie....i am not opposed to appreciating a man's efforts when he is pro feminist and actively nonsexist and has a willingness to understand oppression that does not directly effect him. but i am acutely aware of the dynamic of women's efforts and struggles and triumphs being dismissed when men are applauded at any sign of sensitivity, understanding, or emotion. here's an example: if a woman is upset, crying, etc., her friend husband girlfriend mother coworker boss daughter will ask her if she is premenstural. if a man is crying, he is taken very seriously, for this is so out of the nature of men!! egads, something must be terribly wrong, how endearing to see a man cry. please excuse my sarcasm, although that doesn't really matter to me :) the only reason i am strongly effected when i see a guy crying is because every male who has ever been in my life has been a hardened ball of pent-up sadness and unexpressed emotion that felt like a time bomb. one never knew what they would do or to whom they would do it. one never never knew what exactly would cause them to do it. this all clearly demonstrates how gender oppression involves men too. i don't feel overjoyed about the way little boys are reared in our culture: to be arrogant insensitive macho footbal stars. but, becuase i have eighteen years of female experience under my belt, i am fully aware that it sucks for all of us, but in very different ways. the main one being that my oppression is actually a daily threat to my life and a constant strain on my sanity and wholeness as a person. and within that difference lies the very definition of power differences. the power to be sexist the power to be racist the power to be classist agist sizeist ableist what have you. the power to rape the power to question the power to kill the power to abuse the abuse of power. the difference between my oppression and the oppression experienced by my male counterparts is manifested in every possible form. the jail sentence for killing your husband is ten years longer than the sentence for killing your wife. women are diagnosed with depression, suicidal tendencies, and insanity more than men are. my bodily functions are depised by this culture and every month i convince myself to hide stuff cork plug deoderize hide hide hide so i can look and smell fresh as a frickin daisy. man on woman violence accounts for ninety eight percent of spousal abuse. the average american six year old girl has the early signs of an eating disorder. the average american female will be raped by the time she is eighteen will experience physical abuse within a relationship at least three times in her lifetime. i don't really need the numbers to understand this for myself, it seems like the only way of portraying even a microfraction of what it is like to be a girl. with all this in mind, i don't really feel any acute desire to congradulate a man for getting it. it doesn't really mean anything if somebody sure does feel real bad about all that pesky power and privelage they have. i appreciate it very much indeed when i encounter a rad boy with his shit together. but i figure it won't do much good to stop at every advance to count and cuddle the men in our ranks. its their responsibility to be there. its their responsiblity to understand. actions speak much much louder than words. <3 mariah.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/22/98 at 6:51PM. MORE! MORE! MORE!

Reply from: carl on 1/22/98 at 7:17PM. i cosider myself a "feminist boy".

Reply from: killerpoptart on 1/26/98 at 10:06PM. I haven't read all the messages on this board, but to the question of whether or not bikini kill is reversed sexist I would ask who ever believes this to read a poem by Chrystos called "those tears". rilly. Meghan

Reply from: Mischief on 1/26/98 at 10:22PM. Meghan!!Post it sweety!!...that's why i made this sucker...it's the land of milk&honey of enlightenment...and rice milk,and pure grain salt for all my fellow vegans...OH,but post it kiddo!!xOOxSUMER

Reply from: curious on 1/26/98 at 11:20PM. ok, if the aim of various communities/movements/opressed groups is to come together, enlighten each other, and gain power, then how can you so dogmatically insist that so-called "reverse discrimination" can't ever exist? using the above quoted formula of Power being mixed into Oppression, there are many kinds of power that various minority groups can gain for themselves, and therefore are open to using to oppress others. Just because a group lacks national political or economic power over their opressors doesn't make them incapable of having other powers. Power is found in many forms: violence, crime, publishing, serving on a jury, having a microphone in front of a crowd, running a small business........When African Americans beat Orthodox Jews in the Crown Heights section of New York a few summers ago, that was an oppressive action: using power in the form of violence and the fear of violence to oppress another community because of who they were. Same thing for the burning and looting of Korean grocers, or for that matter the glorification of such actions by Ice-Cube on his song "Black Korea." When Kathleen is on stage, or in print, or on record, she is in power. In my opinion she uses that power responsibley and to great effect, challenging the horrors of the dominant traditional structure, but her status as a woman doesn't automatically make her incapable of sexism/racism/classism, or hatred. Her power can turn into oppression of any male in the room at a Bikini Kill show the momment she insists on only females at the front of the crowd, and the four foot two boy who waited all afternoon to get into epicenter for the show suddenly gets shoved to the back of a mob of empowered and adrenalized taller women shoving him. Is there a hugely unpleasant history of obnoxious guys ruining shows for women in the audience? yes. Is that a great target for Kathleen to confront and try to resolve? yes. Is it possible for her to overcompensate and create a situation of "reverse discrimination? yes. To assume or insist that there is "NO SUCH THING" as reveres racism, discrimiation, or sexism is naive and offensive. it assumes that the oppressed group is somehow noble and inherintly saintly simpley because they are historically oppressed, rather than taking them at face value as human beings capable of momments of hatred, abuse of power, and mistakes when swept up in the sensation of being in control. It can happen when wealthy gay men on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Los Angeles shun "breeders", when Lon Cryer raises his fist in the courtroom in a Black Panther salute having just been a member of the jury that found O.J. Simpson not guilty of killing two people and gives interviews about "sending a message" by letting O.J. walk free, when Kathleen breaks the heart of a small teenage kid at Epicenter in the summer of 94 by taking away his fairly earned spot in the front being able to see her band play..... Think it over before making a blanket generalization that someone can "NEVER" do something simply because of their gender or race: that is what sounds sexist and racist to me.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/26/98 at 11:46PM. can i please like tattoo that onto my forehead? wow. fucking wow. thank you for all that truth. that was incredible. xoxo ~*mariah.

Reply from: mariah on 1/27/98 at 0:22AM. okay and now i have something a little more coherent to say. i think that "curious" is very right. i agree wholeheartedly. but, the reality of what you are saying is not applicable to the reality of what exists in a larger picture, on a macro level. the reality which has been shaped by history. i think that, yes, racial minorities can be racist, women can be sexist, queers can be heterophobic, poor people can be classist, fat people can be sizeist, young and old people can be agist (fuckin a who's left...hmmm, i won't answer that). but these prejudices effect us all differently because we fit differently into the corners and shelves of this whole structure. it is true that a woman could beat her husband out of hatred for the fact that he was a man. that is sexist. but the stigma, legalities, and motivations for her beating him would be completley different than that of a man who beats his wife. for one, this wife beater is no lonely guy, him and his fellow wife beaters account for ninety eight percent of domestic violence. secondly, this man probably grew up in a household where he saw his mother get beat up by his dad, not his mom wailing on his pop. thirdly, if the neighbors call the police on him for beating his wife, there is a seventy percent chance that he'll simply get a verbal warning. if he eventually kills his wife, he would get about ten years less time in prison and a better chance at parole than his wife would have gotten had she killed him first. there is a reason that there are more battered women shelters than battered men shelters in the world. there is a reason that a women's liberation movement has officially been in the works for almost a thousand years. there is a reason for all this. its called sexism. and the first definition for sexism that comes to my mind is the hatred and violence, in varying degrees, that men have brought upon the lives of women since the beginning of time (to the best of my knowledge). so the reason i do not acknowledge "reverse sexism" as actually existing, is because my anger, my hatred, my presence, my upbringing, my idea of a good time, my disfunctional qualities, my violent urges, my words, my thoughts, my actions, have never risked the life, reputation, safety, sanity, well being, happiness, wholeness, self esteem, life expectancy, have never controlled the clothing, curfew, noise, freedom, or expression of any man or boy on this fucking planet because i myself have been too malnurished, distressed, unhappy, crazy, silenced, tired, muffled, dazed, fake, worried, little, cold, busy, fractional, unimportant, stupid, confused, sensitive, or scared to have the power, yes the power, to oppress any male in such a nature. i have been a fraction of the human being i might have been for the majority of my life all on account of me being a girl. the ideas of reverse sexism, racism, classism, whatever, are used, in this society, to backlash against the progress of subversive movements like feminism, against unlearning racism, against ending hate crimes against queers, against the oppression of young people. it is obvious that anyone can hate and be violent and judgemental. that is part of human nature, and is a choice we all have. but it is also obvious that it just doesn't mean the same thing coming from different people. to quote someone from the beginning of this post: oppressions cannot be compared. being unable to see kathleen hannah onstage because you are a boy for one night in your life, after the basic elements of your psyche have developed, because you choose to listen to feminist music can not be juxtaposed against a lifetime of being marginalized. ~m.

Reply from: on 1/27/98 at 0:47AM. wow mariah, that was well said!

Reply from: esk on 1/27/98 at 3:16AM. okee, a few more thoughts: i still hesitate to use the term "oppression" to describe, say, asian-american hatred of latinos, or latino hatred of african-americans. certainly there is a racial hierarchy in this country (U.S.) and asian-american hatred of latinos is an example of a relatively empowered group acting on prejudice towards a relatively oppressed group. but if you take a wider view, this hatred is a direct result of the racial hierarchy itself, not the other way around; and what group is responsible for the design, construction, and maintenance of that lovely lil' hierarchy? whites. inter-minority conflict, in my own view, is instigated and encouraged by those at the top of the heap, for their benefit. so - how do i acknowledge this without completely denying the responsibility of individual minority groups? i choose to be ultra-selective when it comes to the term "oppression." lotsa people will disagree with me, i'm sure, and i am constantly defining and re-evaluating my ideas on this topic, so talk to me in a few weeks and i may sound a little different. :) but that's where i stand now. it becomes fuzzy when different categories of oppression collide - as someone suggested, wealthy gay men scoffing at poor heterosexuals. *shrug* i don't have all the answers, i'm only a pathetic engineering major, after all. mariah & ednie - thanks for your awesome input on this topic, you guys rock. i wish i could take your class at evergreen, ednie! maybe i'll drive up there someday this summer and sit in on a lecture or two. :)

Reply from: curious on 1/27/98 at 9:49AM. mariah makes some great points that I wish I had clarified in my piece: In no way would I compare the kid getting shut out of seeing BK at epicenter to the massive scale of oppression that women have faced globally for human history, nor the legacy of treatment African Americans have faced in the United States. I just wanted to show that it is possible for people of any marginalized group to turn whatever power they may have into oppression when they reject tolerance. A later post, not yours, mentions Asian American bias against Latino's (if I recall properly) but then lays that blame upon the "white" power structure here in America (where I am writing from). That is a bit neglectfull of the rich history of racism Asians have invented on their own: various Chinese and Japanese cultures have a vast history of racial violence against each other, spanning centuries before Caucasians got involved. wars have been fought, tribes have been targeted for genocidal slaughter, cultures have been erased. Similarly, explain to me what the Hutu slaughters in Somolia and neighboring African countries upon fellow Africans learned from U.S. history, when their factional racism has gone on longer than we've existed? The class structure in India? In-fighting among Native American cultures? With a historical perspective, few cultures come away innocent of the ability to hate. Does the white male power structure of the U.S. and Western Europe benefit from minority groups hurting each other rather than getting along? Sadly, yes. Does that mean that white male U.S. and Western European power structure taught the Mongolians to rampage across the terrain of China using rape as a weopan to erase the racial composition of their victims? Sadly, they are responsible for that all on their own.

Reply from: esk on 1/27/98 at 10:50AM. i was speaking of racial relations specifically in the united states. sorry, i thought i made that clear somewhere.

Reply from: esk on 1/27/98 at 11:03AM. ...and just to be a little more clear, i am not denying that all people have the ability to hate regardless of race. i'm just saying that the term "oppression" is perhaps not appropriate in the specific examples i cited. class structure in india, fighting between native american tribes (before white man's arrival), etc. certainly fall outside the bounds of contemporary u.s. race relations, and that's really the only social structure that i feel vaguely familiar enough with to discuss.

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 1/27/98 at 12:04PM. Let's not stretch the definition of "oppression" beyond utility. I don't have the book here, but waaaaaaaaaay back when an anonymos viewer suggested the essay "oppression" by Marilyn Frye, in this book, what's it called...oh, the politics of reality, I think? It's very useful in clarifying these issues. I don't think it's useful to say a boy who can't be rightupfront at a BK show is as a boy being oppressed, in a very narrow sense his gender is giving him a disadvantage, yes, but does that = oppression? I'm not even saying "it's not as bad as it is for girls the rest of the time, I'm not comparing it to rape, but it is oppression", or whatever, I'm saying it's not "oppression". I gotta go, my eyes are glazing...

Reply from: Nicole on 1/27/98 at 12:19PM. oh geez...that's me right above this, I forgot to put my name

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