title: sitcom hell?

Replies:

Reply from: bina on 12/27/96 at 6:41PM. dood kate i totaly agree with u! or like when ppl *pretend* 2 b gai...and i think when someone does that tis rilly icky b/c it's just dum love, bina

Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 12/28/96 at 11:29PM. good point kate...i agree with you totally.....all that i have left to say about the issue is: GO RICKI, GO RICKI, GO RICKI, GO RICKI...!!! :) She is the only kewl tv person i can think of at

Reply from: Evan on 1/2/97 at 7:40AM. I tend to agree with you. However, I feel no anger towards that. I feel anger towards the people who hate me because I'm gay. I feel anger towards the guys who fucking beat me up because I'm a dyke. I feel anger towards the people who think its not right for me to walk down the street holding hands with a girl so they beat the living shit out of me. I am angry that I can't walk into my old highschool without hearing comments about my sexuality. I walk by them and they know I fuck girls....my sexuality is not in my walk, so why the fuck do you see it there???? television people focus on the "lifestyle", not the oppression. This sucks. Queers are not represented fully on tv, but how can we expect them to? The programs that you're talking about are blatantly mainstream "I am made by assholes for the sake of money" shows. Things have to change. But in order to change anything, we must find our voice. Find our voice so we can speak out and fuck shit up. These thoughts are really fucking unorganized, but I dont care. It is early in the morning and I havent gotten any sleep and my fucking cd player is broken and it keeps playing the same fucking line of madame over and over and i am going to scream....its amazing how i alway manage to turn my posts into basic nonsensical rambling....

Reply from: hiber on 1/2/97 at 9:01AM. don't watch tv! I'm with you there but it's more than the walk. what is it? I get the same shit (turned heads, mean eyes, whispers, etc.) what the fuck?!?!

Reply from: Alien She on 1/2/97 at 10:31AM. See, I think every human baing ever born has a shitty self-esteem to some extent. And we all deal with it in a different way. Some of us talk about our feelings, some of us engage in a physical activity of some sort like sports and some of us play Nintendo. :) But really ass-backwards, fucked up people deal with it by hating. Hating makes them feel good, makes them feel like they're better than somebody. And with gay people, it's like the ONLY difference is who we love. So they HAVE to focus on that.

Reply from: Evan on 1/3/97 at 5:42AM. sex is in your walk, teach.

Reply from: Ribs on 1/3/97 at 12:46PM. TO be honest with you, if people in general didn't say things racist or demeaning to anyone, (not that I like it or agree with it) their would never be anyone to talk back and think "hey what your doing is fucking stupid." So we would all be in the same goddamn predicament we began with and there would never be change. Yeah there are people at heart who are big assholes, just thank God (if you believe at all) that their are idiots. Everyone in this world should be entitled to their opinions, ridiculos as they are. I don't know if I'm explaining this in a real good way. Please don't send me hate messages. I'm not really siding with the assholes I hsve just come to the realization that their are millions of them on earth, and that it is really hard to change opinions. Sorry if being realistic is a pain in the ass but it ususally works that way. I think that if you hate back the people that are hating you, you are just as bad as them, like the next time someone calls you a dyke, smile and say thanks, I try. Gotta go. xoxo Ribs.. aka Stephanie

Reply from: Evan on 1/3/97 at 1:54PM. I dont feel anger because I am called a dyke, I feel anger because I was put in a hospital for no other reason then because somebody didnt like what they suspected I identified as. That is fucked up. And you're right, there are tons of assholes around. But that fact doesnt justify anyone's actions. I don't care to think about what it would be like if we didnt have assholes around, cuz the fact is, we do. You can create scenarios in your mind about what it would be like if we didnt, but it wouldnt and doesnt erase this reality.

Reply from: Ribs.. on 1/4/97 at 5:13PM. I totally realize what your saying and I guess I was trying to put this point across ..Uhm as far as being in the hospital .. that really does suck , and Im sorry .. you had to go through that... But If you want to dwell in the past and hate the things that idiots do, then your only hurting yourself, because if these idiots loved u, they would except you for what you are.. and not try and change you. Love unconditional.. Right? So like I'm sure these people don't dwell in your pain so why should you dwell in their stupidity? YOu have to get over things like this or you will become weak. Sorry.

Reply from: Evan on 1/4/97 at 10:01PM. I am NOT dwelling in the past...homophobia is a reality for me everyday of my life. Everyday that I walk down the street, I am looked at as a target. Even if I am not physically assaulted or verbally harassed that day, you damn well better believe that i get the looks. I accept that as a part of my reality, but I refuse to let it go on unnoticed and unchanged. I dont know if anyone understands what I am saying, but I dont care. Cuz this is my life. You can say I am weak, you can say whatever the fuck you want. But I will still be here. I will still be living my reality. I will still be struggling to NOT be a target in the eyes of others, and especially in the eyes of myself.

Reply from: Kaia's PEt Freak on 1/4/97 at 10:20PM. Ribs I think it's unfair of you to go after Evan like this. She is not weak for being angry...this anger is justified. Not that this totally matters but you told me that you weren't gay, so how can you judge her for her feelings about experiences that arent a part of your life? You deserve to express you opinoins but now you have so just back off.

Reply from: Evan on 1/5/97 at 3:54AM. by the way, when i said I was put in a hospital, i didnt mean a mental hospital. I meant i was put in a hospital cuz i was beaten so badly by bashers. Those people do not love me unconditionally; they dont love me at all. And their hate isnt unconditional either. Cuz if I wasnt a dyke, or if I didnt walk like one or whatever, they wouldnt give a damn about me.

Reply from: wren on 1/5/97 at 8:56AM. Not dwell upon the irrational anger and hate of homophobes? Ignoring a problem DOES NOT make it go away. Every single day is a struggle against those who would seek to opress us - our families, our employers, our coworkers, the random people on the street, our clergy - friggn' anyone can be a homophobe. Unfortunately, there isn't a homophobe-dar like their is gaydar. I'm always caught by complete surprise when homophobic slurs are thrown my way. I'm always suprised when I hear of gay bashings. No part of my mind can rationalize why it happens, so I am angry. Angry as hell. And yes, it is also good to try to see the good of my life. I do have a good job where my sexuality, by written policy, cannot be a factor to cause loss of employ or discrimination. I do live in a college town with a sizable lesbian community. I do have an organic/natural foods grocery two blocks from my apartment. All these things are good. But I've seen my roommates walk in, bruised and battered, from being gaybashed. I can't ignore it. It's a constant struggle. And it won't change without the conscious continual effort of all concerned to make it better.

Reply from: wren on 1/5/97 at 9:01AM. my, that was off topic - on the topic of TV - i rarely, if ever, watch tv. but recently i saw Ellen for the second time. i was amused by her closeted remarks, and yet it struck me as being a prime example of tokenism. lesbians are chic, en vogue, haute coture, etc. eventually "ellen morgan" will prolly come out. str8s say "wow" and the gay community is all like "it's about time". i feel that the positive portrayal of queers on television and in movies is a wonderful thing, and yet, i also know it's all for money, they show what sells, and right know, it's both chique and riske to have queer characters on television. i challenege ANY tv executive or ANY move producer to try to show a fuller prespective of ONE GAY LIFE - it ain't happenin. there's a WHOLE lot more to a lesbian life than jokes about carpet munching. but then, what can one expect from TELEVISION?

Reply from: Ribs on 1/5/97 at 2:40PM. YOur are all missing my point. First of all I never said I wasn't gay, and I never said I wasn't strait.. So I really don't know where you got that from.. whoever.... I don't know what I am. So fine your gay and your living your reality.. that is really great and Im happy you have the strength to come out. But your weakness lies in the fact that you can't let go of the things that hurt you. Eventually you are going to have to leave them behind. Don't forget them, but don't dwell in them.. do you know what I'm saying. I don't mean to offend anyone, and I am certainly not homophobic. Being gay shouldn't mean that you have to deal with people who hate you for the dumbest reasons... fighting back is your option, and you must think of constructive ways in which to do this.. to get over these everyday realities of being gay. All i really meant to say was that if you dwell in hate.. that is what you will become... whatever.. this is like a double edge knife.

Reply from: Kaia's Pet Freak on 1/5/97 at 4:30PM. Evan does deal with her anger in contructive ways...you don't know her so how do you know what she does to fight oppression?

Reply from: Kaia's Pet Freak on 1/5/97 at 4:32PM. ....and besides,.there's a difference between dwelling and dealing...

Reply from: kate on 1/5/97 at 4:44PM. How can you say we don't get over it? We still get up and leave the house every day fer god's sake. Moving on does not mean forgetting homophobia cuz no matter where you move on to there is more homophobia! At this time i may not be constantly thinking of what some guy said to me or how some girl looked at me or what i heard them saying about me on the bus or how threatened i feel out at night with a girl but it is there and tomorrow it may knock me down again. Homophobia is not a one off fer us. How we choose to deal with it is in NO WAY being weak. If i wanted to stay in my bedroom crying all day until the ground stopped rising up to meet my face every time i went out, staying in bed would NOT be weak. It would be the strongest thing i could do AT THAT TIME to deal with all the fucking bullshit i have to face every single day of my life. You say get over it? How do you get over living yr life as a blind target? You deal with it at the time. But you don't ever forget it when peaople hate you for no reason at all. -kate

Reply from: Evan on 1/6/97 at 5:49AM. Once again, I am not dwelling on the things I have been through. But the point is, new things come up everyday. New incidents of hate show up, just when I feel like they have all disappeared into the past. I deal with those things as they come. And part of the reason I am able to do this is because I have learned from the things that have happened in the past. I have NOT let them go. And they give me strength now. I cant forget the anger I felt, and the shame...the first time i was bashed. I cant let those feelings go. Doing that would be pretending those things never happened to me. AND THEY DID. The reality of our oppression surrounds us. Not just on tv, everywhere. Even on this board. Ignoring any of it would be the denial of all of it. We simply cant afford to be ignorant. For myself, that means reminding myself that it isnt just an isolated incident. Reminding myself that it happens to alot of people in different ways of varying degree (although equally unjust). Reminding myself that I don't have to watch it continue before me (and to me) without doing anything. And doing something about it. Doing something. Action. This is not all just about thought (although thought is a big part of it). I write zines and make movies and organize youth groups. And I talk to people. I talk to them about this. And about my life; and I listen to them. And I sing songs with them. And I love them. This may be just a random post on a stupid fucking message board to alot of you. But I live it. This is my reality. Don't you dare try to tell me to discard it. Don't you dare try to tell me I am living it wrong. The fact that I am still alive and still wanting to be, still struggling for something; that fact means alot to me. And I cling to it. I dont want to lose sight of that by letting go.

Reply from: ribs on 1/9/97 at 12:56PM. The sad part of this is, that I agree with you. You have become so defensive that you can't even see that. YOu manipulated my words into something I never meant them to be. I don't care if I don't know you or anything about that because it was general advice that I gave you.YOu have made this so irritating to the point that it is stupid. I'm sure you'll twist that up to. All i have to say is that you are a human being... and you labeled your self. Take that however you want but I don't dislike you because your gay.. I dislike you because you because your annoying.

Reply from: A quite thoroughly pissed Alien She on 1/9/97 at 1:47PM. Hmmm... *trying to come up with a somewhat less offensive synonym to FUCK YOU* Sorry. Can't do it.

Reply from: kate on 1/9/97 at 4:03PM. Ribs, i don't think you agree with us. Maybe you do, i guess, but if that is the case you said a very stupid thing when you wrote yr first post. You said if no one was racist of homophobic people wouldn't have anyone to think was an asshole. Oh yeah? people don't need to be hospitalized in order to think someone is an asshole, and thus act out against. There are always ways to improve the world, its not like eradicating racism and homophobia would make the world perfect. There are, after all, people like you who call people we love irritating because they express their position. I don't think Evan is irritating. I do think you are an asshole. -kate

Reply from: burntgrrrl on 1/9/97 at 4:10PM. evan is the queen of teh neighborhood seriously, you shouldn't say she's irritating, cuz she's NO, even is really smart, and nice, and i think shels really s'wheat adn caring. evan rules over chainsaw, too. i mean, she roxx, and i think she has alot of great stuff to say an i totally agree with all her points, and i agree with kate, too, cuz i would be so happy if there was no one fer me to call asshole, i would LOVE a happy world.

Reply from: Evan on 1/9/97 at 4:42PM. first of all, if you dont like me because of something i have written on this board, you must be pretty fucking small, cuz you dont know me. Secondly, I never EVER said you didnt like me because I am gay. I have never before made any assumption about you or who you are. I have only read what you posted and responded about what i perceived it to be; which is what i thought was the point here. And you had your chance to clarify what it was you meant, if you felt I wasnt seeing your point. But instead you decided to attack me. That was your choice. I have labelled myself??? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Walking down the street and being beaten up by assholes has nothing to do with whatever I choose to LABEL myself as. I don't write DYKE across my forehead when I go out. And even if I did, NO ONE has the right to do anything to me because of it. And that's the point I think you're missing...

Reply from: Delirium on 1/9/97 at 7:08PM. Sorry for butting in on this discussion, but I just have to say that I really admire you, Evan. I've only told two of my friends that I'm gay 'cause I'm too scared of homophobic people. I've gone through the whole depressing something-is-wrong-with-me phase and ended up accepting myself, but I still can't deal with it publicly. I've seen too many girls tortured for it. One of my friends won't even look at me anymore. This probably seems awkward 'cause I'm new here, but I can't explain how it feels to be able to write this and know that there are people who understand. I just wish I had your courage 'cause people like you are gonna help us overcome prejudice.

Reply from: Ribs on 1/10/97 at 11:00AM. Why do you think that I am not agreeing with you? My first post was meant to imply that the world will never be the way that any of us wants to be... I guess I didn't make myself clear. I agree with you and the way that you feel. I really don't think that I ever attacked you. In fact I have done nothing but offer advice to you. So don't take it, it doesn't hurt me. If you know who bashed you then I hope you did something as far as legal terms go. I really don't know you. I never said I hated you either. I said I dislike you and I know from talking to you on here that your really defensive, and you make these words up that I never even said. YOu made the hugest deal out of nothing when I was agreeing with you the whole time. Zines, music and all of that stuff are wonderful, but your making it seem like your whole life is this problem,and that is really sad. I mean this in the way that you are limiting yourself. If you can't see that then this is pointless. This subject is so beat now. I don't even care.

Reply from: Evan on 1/10/97 at 12:28PM. This has become close to amusing for me. Although, it is also frustrating. This is in no way the only thing I base my life on. It is however, a part of my life. The point of all of this, I thought, was to discuss this...whatever it is we're talking about. I dont know anymore. I had no intention of trying to hurt you by not following your "advice" or whatever. I was simply discussing and giving my responses, not only to you...but to everyone who reads this board. I never said you hated me either. And as for me being defensive...I think I am. However, this is not just about you. I am defensive because, in a way, I feel I have to be. But that's really not the point here. As far as me making up words, I dont think I ever did that; seriously. I am not going to make it my place to say whether you were agreeing with me or not. Cuz again, that's not the point. I am not arguing with you, I am trying (trying being the key word here) to have somewhat of a debate about it. I realize that we have somewhat strayed from that, but oh well. You said I am making my whole life about this problem. I dont know any other way to say this, that is simply not true. My life is about doing the things that I want to do, that I feel are right. And alot of people have made this difficult; oppression of my life, deemed as my "lifestyle". I struggle to maintain myself, and forward myself. This struggle is constant. However, my life does not revolve around it. It revolves around my life. I honestly dont see what you mean when you say I am limiting myself. I think it is other people who try to limit me. The result of that is me trying to fight that, trying to be myself in a society that doesnt approve of who it is they think I am. Hmmm, I dont think any of this is pointless, to tell you the truth. I find it sad that you think it is. I think its important to talk about this, to talk about everything actually. :) I mean, to me, I find this whole fucking board worthwhile in the fact that Delirium responded. In the fact that there are people out there who read this, and thought about it. Even if they disagreed with me or you or anyone else. That was the driving factor here with me. Learning, not arguing. I guess that sounds really cheesy, but oh well. The fact still remains that I find all of this valid (in terms of existance, not content). So that's cool if you dont care anymore, but I still do.

Reply from: Alien She on 1/14/97 at 12:56PM. 29...

Reply from: Alien She on 1/14/97 at 12:58PM. ...30. There. Don't ever say I didn't do anything for you, buddy... *smirk*

Reply from: Tim on 1/14/97 at 3:15PM. I was on the bus coming in to town tonight to attend a coming-out group (not so much for me, though I do have issues, but to help at it). There were these obnoxious shaved-headed boi-jerks (the worst kind) on the bus going on and on about something. I turned up my mixed tape in my Walkperson (TM) (I think I had reached the Team Dresch song 'I'm Illegal'), but then something struck me. One of these jerks was talking about this assault that happened in front of a McDonald's downtown - and HE had done it. Seems the victim brushed against his balls (the source of his power, I'm sure) with a hand and he took it upon himself to beat the guy. Fortunately, a relatively sympathetic cop was nearby and stopped it. This boi-jerk was going on and on about how he wanted to really lay into this guy hard, and all his little friends were magnifying his comments, while I was stuck in their midst. One of them (a boy who should be prevented from breeding, or even queer fucking, just on principle) said: 'If it had been me he did it to...'. I could not stay silent any longer. I took off my 'phones and said: 'Check the ego on you.' Then I put 'em back on and avoided their gaze. Usually, I'm not scared by this talk - but these were big bois, who could probably have done some damage even to a butch guy like me. And THIS, Ribs, is what even large lads like me face - malice and threats of violence. For Christ's sake - they're your balls, boi - not your life! Just ignore him... Anyway - the guy said how he was going to plead guilty and ask for a suspended sentence 'cause he was a big athlete and a student and all. Sad thing is, he'll probably get it - but I, even though I'm morally opposed to it, would not mind giving him DEATH. The twelve guys killed by Nazis in Montreal, and a friend of mine killed in Toronto last spring, call out for it with THEIR blood...and you ask me to calm down and accept that this world won't love me...fine...but don't HATE me to death, folks - 'cause I'll take a few of you with me, I assure you...and I'll calm down when the world doesn't scare the shit out of me with stuff like this. Thank you very much, Ribs...and the bus-bois...

Reply from: Kaia's Freak on 1/14/97 at 4:07PM. Tim that;s a great messege.

Reply from: Tim on 1/14/97 at 6:51PM. Thanks, Kaia, o goddess of wisdom. That is much appreciated. Get Tim pissed off and he turns into an essayist - who'da thunk it? *grin*

Reply from: wren on 1/16/97 at 7:37AM. Will this thread ever die? :)

Reply from: Alien She on 1/16/97 at 9:17AM. MWAHAHAHAAAA!!! *an inherently evil and sadistic grin* NEVER!!! :)

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