May 17, 1999 Guests on this program were: Ruby Wax Richard Littlejohn Gavin Rossdale Simon Lebon Bill's Opening Bill: Thank you very much. How are you, Americans? British, how are you? Thank you very much. Wow! This is very exciting. We're in London. [ Laughter ] I guess you know that, you're here, too. Yes, we're spending a whole week here in London. We were supposed to do the show this week in Australia, but we're using a NATO map, so -- [ Laughter ] We wound up -- I -- I've seen a lot of the sites already, and the Americans, on this side -- we have the room divided here. The British are over here, right? [ Cheers ] And the Americans are over here. [ Cheers ] Naturally, more loud and obnoxious. But -- [ Laughter ] Have you seen all the sites? I wanted to see so many things. I've seen Westminster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben -- I wanted to see Fergie's legs. [ Light Laughter ] But, wouldn't you know, this is the one day they're closed. I -- [ Laughter ] Are they laughing over there on the British side? I kid Fergie. No, I've seen a lot of the things around town. I notice there are small cultural differences, like the movies. Did you notice? The movies that we know in America, there are different names over here for the movies. "Mighty Joe young" is just "Mighty Joe." I don't know why. "Waking Ned Divine" is just "Waking Ned." "Shakespeare In Love," over here, is called "Come Laugh At Gwyneth Paltrow's Accent." [ Laughter ] Now, the big story in the paper -- and we're gonna talk about this -- I don't understand this. You're gonna have to explain this to me. Camilla Parker Bowles, who is the Prince's girlfriend, right? I don't think I'm talking out of school there -- [ Laughter ] Her son was found with cocaine, or he does cocaine or something. I don't know. And they're all upset because, apparently, her son, Tom, is a friend of the little Princes, of Charles' kids. And they're afraid that, you know, he might be a bad influence. So Charles had a lecture today with the two Princes, and he told them, "you should not do drugs because you could end up jobless, divorced and living with your mother." [ Laughter ] [ Applause ] I kid. I kid the Prince! I love the Prince! Now, our Prince William, Bill Clinton, he a -- [ Laughter ] He had a scare today. Did you see this? He was in Los Angeles leaving on Air Force One, that is our plane that carries him -- I don't know what they know -- [ Laughter ] And it almost hit another plane. They had to take evasive action on board. All the safety procedures were advised. Luckily, the flight attendant on board already had her head between a pair of knees so -- [ Laughter ] Thank you very much. You're a wonderful cross-Atlantic audience. Panel Discussion Bill: And let me introduce our panel for tonight's show. The band is Bush, and the new cd will be out this September, Gavin Rossdale, ladies and gentlemen. [ Applause ] Hey, Gavin. Gavin: Hi. Bill: Welcome aboard. How are you, sir? Gavin: Good, good. Bill: Or "Mate," I should say. How are you, mate? He's an outspoken columnist for London's daily journal of opinion, "The Sun," Richard Littlejohn. Richard. [ Applause ] Hey, how are you, sir? Nice to meet you. She hosts her own talk show here in the U.K., and you can catch her brand-new series on lifetime beginning in August, the fun-loving, Ruby Wax. Ruby! [ Cheers and applause ] Bill: Hey! Ruby: Hi. Bill: Good to see you back here. How are you doing? Ruby: Good. Bill: And, finally, he is the frontman of one of the most popular bands of our time. They're on tour again starting this fall. From duran duran, Simon Lebon. Simon! [ Cheers and Applause ] Hey. Pleasure to meet you there, mate. Have a seat. [ Applause ] Okay. Well, as I said, the big story here in the paper -- I don't know how much this reached the states -- but is that Camilla Parker's -- Bowle's son -- [ Laughter ] -- snorted cocaine. Now this is "The London Times." And I want people to understand, this is not the tabloid papers that you have over here, like "The Mirror" and "The Sun." This is like "The New York Times." And, here it is, right in the right-hand column, which is the most important column -- unless you read the way you drive. [ Laughter ] Uh, so that would be equivalent of having this on the front page of "The New York Times." I don't understand it. Ruby: It is the same thing as those. But, the son does the cocaine, but she looks like that. Isn't that unbelievable? [ Laughter ] Bill: You know what? Yes. Ruby: It's a miracle. Bill: Well, I never understood. In America, that never happens where the husband leaves the hot, young wife for the old, ugly one. [ Laughter ] You'll have to explain that. Ruby: She's good in the saddle. Yeah, she's good on horses. Bill: Yeah, she must be. Gavin: But, it's no wonder, that, you know, they've stop selling newspapers in England. It used to be, at -- [ Talking At The Same Time ] Bill: But, this is "The London Times." And, all I could think was, you know, I know you debate whether you should have a monarchy here. You do debate that, don't you? Ruby: Always. Simon: What's the difference? Bill: What's that? Simon: It doesn't make any difference what we say. [ Laughter ] Simon: Well, why would we say -- ? Richard: You see why this is an important story, 'cause this guy, Tom Parker bowle, has set up both the mentor to Prince William, sort of the heir to the throne -- what is this guy gonna teach him, where to buy drugs? I mean, he is supposed to be a role model for a future King. Simon: Since when? Richard: This is it. This is what he does. Ruby: Since 7:00 this morning? I never heard anything. Have you ever heard anything? Bill: No. Richard: No, this has been happening for a while, he's his best friend, encouraged to mix with this. Bill: But, see, I'm from a country where we just went through a horrible scandal with our actual President that was totally unnecessary -- [ Laughter ] And I think your monarchy is a very good idea because they are scandal soapers. All the scandals are -- Tony Blair could be having sex with a horse, it wouldn't matter. [ Laughter ] No one would care because all they do is follow what the monarchy does. And I think that's a great idea. Richard: Well, that's not true. I mean, what happens, we will have to type the scandal wherever it comes from. The fact that the royal family are in the news -- Bill: Oh, come on -- Richard: The politicians are slaughtered here, much more than they do in America. Ruby: I think it's a good thing that we have the Queen, because, who better can you lick the back of the head? You know. I mean, if it was Clinton, you'd be scared to lick it 'cause you'd never what -- [ Laughter ] It's a good thing. I don't know what is it -- that's the tooth fairy to Americans. That's what the Queen does, "It's not important." It's so that you should have power -- Bill: But it is important -- [ All talking at once ] Richard: Well, you've your own royalty. You've got your own royalty. You have your Hollywood stars, you've got the Kennedys, you've got -- Bill: Exactly. And they don't have to run the world. President Clinton has to run the world with one hand tied behind his back because -- Richard: We didn't get -- we didn't get -- we didn't get that detailed. Ruby: Do you think if there was a queen in the picture, then he wouldn't have gotten in trouble? What's the point here? Bill: My point is that when you have a monarchy, they get all the attention from the press about scandals and the leader of the free world is free to -- Gavin: They're not scandals. It doesn't matter whether it's the royal family, the politicians, it doesn't matter. [ All Talking At Once ] Bill: Well, then, why is this on the front page of your important paper? Gavin: I think it's -- yeah, I agree. Shouldn't be there -- in the news. Richard: Because people are interested. I mean, people are interested in this sort of thing that was surrounding the royal family. The royal family are paid for by the British taxpayers -- Ruby: By the taxpayers. [ All talking at once ] Yeah, but you guys get -- Bill: And I think they're getting their money's worth. Simon: They're positively wonderful. I mean, they're better than "The Addams Family". Bill: It's not even -- I mean, I'm closer in line to the Kingdom than this kid. [ Laughter ] He's the Prince's girlfriend's son. Even if he gave the Princess bad advice, and so what? What would happen? They'd be late for a parade one day? I mean -- [ Laughter ] Most of the kids aren't gonna be running the world either, are they? Simon: But, have you seen the pictures? Have you seen the pictures in there? Bill: The pic -- yes. Simon: Let's all look at the pictures. Show the pictures there. Gavin: That's what people are worried about. Bill: Okay. Ruby: Well, what are they worried? Bill: Well, he looks like a pasty Englishman. [ Laughter ] [ All talking at once ] [ Laughter ] Bill: Oh, here it is. Here's the picture of them right here. Can you get in on it? There it is. [ Laughter ] Okay, we have to take a commercial. We'll be right back. Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be Roger Daltrey, Helen Baxendale, Rich Hall and Melanie Phillips. [ Applause ] Bill: Okay, we were talking about the different scandals that make it to the papers and how they make them across the Atlantic and in our country. Now, in this country, I know Tony Blair has had a number of gay sex capades in his cabinet. Seems like every time I pick up the paper in Britain, somebody else has -- what? Is that not true? Simon: How are they not supposed to do it in the cabinet? [ Laughter ] Bill: Right, in America, we call it "the closet." I guess, here, "you're out of the cabinet." Ruby: Out of the cabinet. Bill: But, I couldn't believe this. This is something that would never happen in America. They are debating the age of consent for gay sex over here. I mean, in America we debate -- I mean, we have Jerry Falwell on, who thinks there shouldn't be gay sex at all. Here, the debate is that the House of Commons says it should be 16. The House of Lords says it should be 18, and -- Ruby: There's more of them in the House of commons, though. You could see their point. [ Laughter ] but it takes more time to learn how to do safe sex. I think they need the time. [ Talking at Once ] [ Laughter ] What are you saying? Bill: Do you think that's out of touch? Do you think it should be 16? Gavin: I think it should be 16. I think if you're old enough to go off to war, you should kiss who you want to good-bye. You know? [ Laughter ] [ Applause ] Bill: Other people. Richard: I don't like government peering into people's bedrooms. The thing that puzzles me about this is the priorities of the government. It's one of the most important things that they've got on their agenda. Bill: That's what I read. Richard: At the same time, they're lowering the age at which you can be sodomized to 16. They're raising the age at which you can buy a cigarette to 18. So you can be [ bleep ] at 16, and you'll wait two years for the cigarette afterwards. [ Laughter ] Bill: But don't they -- [ Applause ] Simon: I mean, isn't it about choosing to be sodomized legally that they're talking about? Remember, Richard, it's on TV. Richard: This is, and I'll try to keep it clean. But the funny thing about this, I was talking to a guy I work with at the BBC -- a gay guy, a friend of mine. And he said, "Richard -- " Ruby: Who isn't gay at the BBC? Richard: Most of them. [ Laughter ] Ruby: You know what I'm saying? Like, if you word this out -- [ Talking at the Same Time ] Richard: I got it wrong -- he says, "the older homosexuals don't want it so that they can sodomize 16-year-old boys." He wants 16-year-old boys to sodomize -- [ Talking at the Same Time ] Ruby: Yeah, but that's rape. Come on, this is with consent. That's with consent. Richard: -- with consent. Of course it's consent. Ruby: Yeah, I know, but you're saying, if they wanna do it at 16, they can do it at 16. Bill: Now you say, "Who isn't gay at the bbc?" I -- I mean -- Ruby: Everybody's -- I mean, you know, there's a large number of -- it's the nanny system, that's what does it, 'cause when the toilet training happens, it's very severe. [ Laughter ] It's just sandpaper -- Bill: That should make it easier then. [ Laughter ] And you know that your Nannies kill our babies. You know that. [ Laughter ] [ Audience ohs ] Oh! Ooh! Ow! It's a joke. Please! You know -- Simon: It wasn't that funny. [ Laughter ] Ruby: You're gonna be here for a week? Good luck. Bill: Um, look, a lot of people in America think, not just BBC, but this whole country is a lot gayer. I'm not trying to make trouble here. Richard: What's that got -- ? [ All talking at once ] [ Laughter ] Bill: I mean, is that not true? Ruby: No, it is true because of the boys' public schools. Sure it is. Bill: Is that why? Ruby: yeah, sex at a young age. And then, it just keeps going. Bill: You mean because the boys are put together? Ruby: Boys are put with other boys. Gavin: Is it because maybe America's food makes you much bigger? Like, you know, everyone gets so big over there, the idea that we're more -- not as big. [ Laughter ] Simon: Or attractive. [ All Talking at Once ] Simon: And I'll agree, you know, there's thing like the all-tough method how they have their -- they have the jock system. Which, of course, we are guilty of in some ways over there. Bill: Oh, terribly. But I don't understand how size correlates to gay. Ruby: Can I explain it to you? Bill: Yes. [ Laughter ] Ruby: It's very important -- Bill: And it is -- Ruby: Well, you know, size is an issue. I don't if they're bringing that up at the House of commons. [ Laughter ] Simon: They definitely can't get it up in the House of Lords. [ Laughter ] [ Laughter ] Simon: You're getting really confused. Gavin: It's a joke. [ Laughter ] Bill: Yeah, but it wasn't that funny. We'll be right back. Bill: Okay. You know, I guess that when you travel you kind of tote up what is good and what is bad about the place you're traveling in and the same thing about your own country, to see who comes out the winner. Now, in our country, I think everyone would say one of the big problems is violence. And we saw a horrible violence last month in Colorado. I mean, I think that's something you probably look at over here and think, "you people are crazy because you have guns. You use them way too much." And, when people use them, they get killed for it. We have the death penalty. Here you don't. I don't understand that. I don't understand how someone commits a brutal crime, you do not want to punish them with a similar measure. Gavin: It's about miscarriages of justice, really. You know, over here we had lots of cases with Burmel Six, the Gilford Four -- or whatever -- gross miscarriages. So had you been confined for these murders who are posthumously re-released, or whatever, if you're dead, you're dead and gone. So that's the -- that's the basis of it really, I think. Richard: A more fundamental objection, I don't like the idea of state murder. Now, you take the Colorado shooting you'd had, if they'd been armed, cops would have gone in and shot them in self-defense in the commission of a crime. I don't have a problem with that. What disgusts me is the way, particularly in the American system, keep people in prison for 15, 16 years, you know, before they decide whether its gonna fry 'em or not. And, I think that demeans everybody -- [ Talking At The Same Time ] Bill: -- Is asking for appeals. They're lawyers. I don't know why they wanna sit there either. [ All Talking at Once ] Ruby: Well, nobody says, "put me on the fire," you know? And nobody wants it. I mean -- Bill: Occasionally they do. Occasionally a guy says, "fry me." And lawyers say, "no, we can make some money." Gavin: Gary Gillmore. Ruby: of course, 'cause the book comes out after it. Yeah. [ Laughter ] Simon: We had a guy who was just pardoned recently -- but, he was executed in his '60s. And, if he hadn't been executed, if he'd been doing a life sentence, he would have been able to walk out of jail to see his sister. That's the reason. Ruby: You think that's the reason people don't want the death penalty here? Simon: That's one of the reasons. Bill: Because of what? Gavin: In case you get it wrong. In case you get the judgment wrong. Bill: Oh, but, come on. Gavin: There's no come on. I'll give you perfect examples of situations where there's been gross miscarriages of justice, and, therefore, you can't be messing around with people's lives. I mean, the thing is, what you're talking about, is, had they not committed suicide -- they were guilty. They were guilty. Ruby: Do you think they should fry them? Bill: Who? Ruby: You. Bill: Absolutely. Simon: And do you think that they should fry them because -- Gavin: Is that because you've seen them? Is that because you caught them? Or is it a situation where you suppose someone did it and put them through the court system and then the jury decides or the judge decides, and then they could get it wrong? I mean, this is a cut-and-dry situation where they did -- Bill: But our system usually errs on the side of victims? I mean, if there's any death, I mean, O.J. got off. Okay? [ Laughter ] If there was doubt there -- Richard: I mean if there's an election on -- I mean Clinton -- that guy executed in Arkansas. I mean, they all want to -- the candidates they kind of always like kill someone to show how tough on crime they are whether there's been a miscarriage of justice or not. Gavin: And do you think if -- do you think people want the death penalty because to seek revenge or because it works as a deterrent? Because, to be a deterrent -- Bill: Both. [ All talking at once ] It just as deters the person who committed the crime from doing it again. He is totally deterred. [ Laughter ] [ Applause ] Simon: I tell you, it might do that. But look how many murders you have, per capita, in the states, compared to murders we have here. Bill: I understand, but that's because we have guns and you don't. Gavin: They have guns here. They have guns here. Bill: Not like we have guns. [ Laughter ] Simon: You talk about guns -- Bill: What? Simon: You talk about guns. Bill: Sure. Simon: What do you think about guns? Bill: I think they're bad. I think they kill people. [ Laughter ] Simon: The NRA are keeping very quiet at the moment now. Bill: Right. The problem in our country is that there are people who think the Second Amendment is the second commandment. [ Applause ] And -- yes. Gavin: Well, is it Arizona -- where is it, Arizona as being somewhere where you can get, if you have a driver's license you can go buy a gun. You need to get your milk and your cereal, or you can go to the other side of the store and get your gun. Bill: Wal-Mart sells guns. Richard: Yeah. Bill: Yeah. Richard: I find that very bizarre. The strange thing about Britain, though, is, after shooting at school here, not unlike the Colorado thing, remember? All the rifle clubs and pistol clubs had to surrender their handguns. So, now, the only people who got weapons -- the terrorists and criminals. They haven't had a hand in this at all. Bill: Right. But that wouldn't happen if you had Charlton heston here. [ Laughter ] We'll take a break, and we'll be back. Bill: Okay. Well, as I guess our British friends have seen why this is called "Politically Incorrect," let me ask this question -- and please don't get mad at me or run me out the studio -- but I have to ask about your late Princess, because, although we all loved her, when she died, we asked a question in America on our show -- and I certainly got a lot of hate mail from it -- that, was this orgy of grief that came forward after it justified? I mean, she was sweet and she was pretty, but was she not really just -- what? Ruby: But, I don't think the motive was grief. I think the motive was guilt. I think the very conversation that we started, which was this woman was hounded to her death, literally, and that every time in the front pages there was something, they were taking her life apart. And everybody who partook in reading it in "Hello!," or whatever your newspaper was, helped murder her. And I think the grief was -- Oh, come on. Of course, everybody -- I think it, too. But, for God's sakes, it's just a job -- leave the woman alone. And, I think, you know, people were mortified by their own involvement in it. [ Talking At The Same Time ] Richard: It's very unbritish. I agree with you. And he's right. It's very unbritish -- this emotional incontinence, this hysteria. You know, I mean, the one mistake I made is I should've been a florist -- I would've cleaned up then. It would be brilliant. But I just do not understand this whole concept of vicarious grief. How can you be so upset about someone you don't know? Bill: Especially, 'cause, we in the states always thought -- Gavin: It's what she represented. It's what she represented. Ruby: I think a mistake was made. [ Talking At The Same Time ] She wasn't -- Bill: Wait, wait, wait -- what does she represent? Gavin: What she represented was, well, aside from the surviving whatever treatment she got from the Royal Family, which was pretty dire, and people felt a lot empathy with her for that. Obviously, all of the charity stuff, and, obviously, the fact that people, who a lot of people look up to, and really, really care about. Ruby: to be brave enough -- Bill: I have to say good night. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ©1999 Follow Up Productions