Is it possible that, when you're working musically, you wind up with more nuanced,
ambiguous, complicated work, because you're so schooled in music, but when you're writing
lyrics or doing something theatrical you're not quite at the same level as an artist?
That's a fair thing to say. Musically, I'm always striving to go a little deeper. Playing mental games. Like
when I wrote "Sanctified," I thought, "Can I do a song that only has one bass line and never changes
through the whole thing?" My idea for the next record is to build more in the song format, instead of
starting with a noise or a drumbeat. I'll do things like use a different sequencer to write, so I won't know
how to work it as quick and it slows me down.
On Downward Spiral I got to explore making an electronic record that doesn't sound electronic for some
parts of it. We did things with drums that I don't know if anyone has really done. We sampled drums in
stereo with stereo mics and discovered if you play them on keyboard it sounds like you're sitting behind
the drums for real. On "March of the Pigs," "Eraser," and those songs, there's no live drums, but it
alluded to being real because it didn't sound like a machine. No way someone could play that like that.
It further added a kind of mind-fuck to it. Instead of falling into a Ministry-type trap of how can I make
things harder and harder, it's scarier to have something creep up on you.
What was it like being the poster boy for Woodstock II?
We got there the night before, and that rave was going on. I'm glad I saw it. We slept on the bus. The
next day, a power line had fallen on the bus and there was voltage going through the bus while we were
on it. I went back to the bunks: "Guys, don't panic, but try not to touch any metal. There is a lot of
voltage going through the bus right now." I walk to the front of the bus, and i see fucking Crosby, Stills,
and Nash looking in, and a sea of cameras, seeing me in my underpants. Hi everybody! That was the
most nerve-wracking day of my life. But that changed things for us a lot, in terms of brand-name
recognition.
Did you feel like, hey, I've entered this other league?
The only time I felt like that was when Courtney Love wanted to date me. That meant I must be a star.
It's a prerequisite, isn't it?
For the last two years, SPIN readers have voted you their favorite artist and Pearl Jam their
favorite band. Which must mean the same people like both you guys. That's a long way from
where you started. Is it strange to be part of the rock pantheon now?
I don't know that I deserve to be there. I don't know that I want to be there. Downward Spiral is pretty
anticommercial-sounding compared to what's usually at the top of the charts. If ten percent of the
people that bought it go "that's pretty cool," then it opens them up to realize that there is more than
Candlebox to the f**king world. There is something other than guitar rock.
Pushing rock sonically into the future, away from grunge and flannel revivalism, is a real
mission with you.
It is. I have a chip on my shoulder. Maybe it's from being keyboard-oriented. Not that bringing the
keyboard to the forefront is one of my main goals.
The spirit of Jerry Lee Lewis. And Billy Joel.
And don't forget Liberace. Seriously, the point is more just to bring people out of complacency.
Sonically, lyrically - your parents should hate it. Bob Dole should have a fucking problem with it. That's
what's best about what I'm told rock'n'roll was, at one time. I could make music that I find interesting,
that's experimental, instrumental noise records, and I may do that sometime. But I'm more interested,
now that fate has dealt me that card that people are interested in what I'm doing, to see how far I can
push.
Take the "Closer" video. I thought, fuck it, instead of the Super 8 video directors we've used in the past,
underground people, let's go with Mr. F**king Gloss, Mark Romanek, who just did that Michael Jackson
piece of s**t. But he could do a beautiful shot, Stanley Kubrick-like in its attention to detail. So we
decided to spend some money and go to ridiculous lengths to recreate works of artists that we liked,
from Joel-Peter Witkin to Man Ray, Brothers Quay, this hodgepodge of stuff. That video was great, it
was cool-as-fuck-looking. Right away, MTV said, "Can't have that, can't have that." Now okay, there was
naked pussy. We knew that was going to get cut. And then we got complaints that people still found
the video disturbing. "Well, why?" "Well, we don't know why, but it seems satanic and evil." And then I
thought, great, we did it.
So, there's almost a double mission. Pulling rock away from the Rolling Stones tradition and
bringing into the mainstream these elements of fringe culture.
Right. I think popular music sucks today. For the most part, I cannot f**king stand the shit that's at the
top of the charts. Now, I'm not saying my sole mission is to turn people on to other music. But maybe I
can change things a bit.
Any current bands you're proselytizing for?
In the electronic world, most people have gone the techno kind of route, which I never was that
interested in. I like some of the sounds of it. It didn't hold my attention: a whole genre based on one
song. However, of that genre I think Aphex Twin is a f**king genius. He's got my top billing and respect.
Selected Ambient Works Vol. 2 is a better Brian Eno record that Eno's ever made. I think that's a
fucking masterpiece.
What about using your visibility to champion political causes?
The idea of politics is just so uninteresting to me - I've never paid much attention to it. I don't believe
things can really change. It doesn't matter who's president. Nothing really gets resolved. I don't know. I
guess that's not the right attitude to take.
It's kind of the attitude of Downward Spiral. There's a real I-versus-all-of-you in that record.
And not much of a we. A lot of large, impersonal forces - maybe in your music in general.
That's a fair assessment. Generally, I've always aspired to become a part of something. But I just never
felt like it - it hasn't really happened. It's odd, because I have my big club, now, and I'm president. It's
not like I'm a part of it, though. When I went to college, I thought that all I wanted to do was just
disappear and see what it's like to have friends, be in a group. Two months later, I was like, fuck this.
I'm not like you. I don't want to lose my identity, my independence, by being around a bunch of other
people who are also scared, doing the same thing. Hiding behind something printed on a T-shirt that
gives you a sense of who you are.
Despite your loner reputation, you seem to develop strong personal loyalties, including a
group of people, from your manager to Gary Talpas who doesn your artwork, who go back to
the early Cleveland days.
It's been nice to see the people who started off on a lower level kind of rise. We use the same manager,
the same booking agent we had from the first tour, the same road manager (up to this tour). The same
soundman, since the beginning. Even if it's sometimes gotten us f**ked over, because everyone else in
the business is bullshit, I'd rather be around straight-up, no-bulls**t guys like [manager] John [Malm].
Personally, though, I'm still a mess.
Yeah? You promise that for everyone out there?
I promise.
