Cosmik: Congratulations on the new album. The Devil You Know is a very different album than Affliction. How do you see the differences in the music and the vibe?

Trevor: Well, I think that between albums our focus switched from soundscape to songwriting. We really wanted to spend a lot of time on crafting the songs. I think you can hear on Affliction that we kind of went overboard on the technology side of things, and we were more into designing the songs rather than writing them. I think there's a very big difference there, so we spent a lot more time on songwriting on The Devil You Know, trying to get our point across and THEN take the technology and use it to augment the dynamics of the song.

Cosmik: Affliction seemed harder, a bit closer to metal.

Trevor: Yeah, it is. It's a very dark record. I think it was a very dark time for the band. Also, working with Rhys Fulber on that record, who comes from Front Line Assembly, I mean, you can't help but be influenced by your producer.

Cosmik: Was there a point after Affliction where you and the others sat down and said "let's really spread out this time"?

Trevor: No, I think it just happened in the process of becoming more focused on songwriting. It ended up that that's just what came out. I think we looked at it in terms of songs first, and less of an album concept, so it was just more of a collection of songs. In the end, there is a theme that runs through it. But yeah, there's definitely a diversity on this album that we hadn't really experimented with before.

Cosmik: I find your music much more difficult to describe than most because there are so many elements. I hear some industrial, I hear some jungle beat drums in places, drone, hard rock, some pop structure... How difficult is it to fit all those pieces together successfully when you're first building a song together?

Trevor: I don't think it's that hard for us because, basically, once you get the song together and you have the basic ideas, then adding the elements that you need to make it more dynamic is a natural. If a verse is kind of dragging, but you know that it's there tempo-wise, a jungle beat is great for hopping up the intensity. Slamming into the chorus with some kind of samples and some strings, and maybe a gated, distorted, sampled guitar will just add extra push to the whole song. That's the way we look at our technological side: it's just there to augment the dynamics. To me, that's very exciting, because you can take a song that's pretty good and make it really good with just a little bit of programming.

Cosmik: I find it interesting that you and your bandmates are all 30-somethings while most of your musical contemporaries are young-20-somethings, and yet you seem to have a better understanding of the technology than most of those bands do. Most of them become slaves to the technology. Augmentation doesn't enter into it at all.

Trevor: I think it's because we were the children of the 80s music. We spent a lot of time listening to that keyboard-oriented stuff in our youth. I think that everybody can say there were bands in the 80s, image-wise, that they thought were pretty cool. But when you go back and look at it now, you think "wow, they're lacking form and substance." It was close, but no cigar. We felt that we could take it that much further. I think that's why we're so enamoured of the keyboard scene and the pop melodies and structures. It's because of the whole 80s trip that we were spending our time listening to in our adolescence. That's our music. I don't think you can escape the influences of your adolescence. It's with you forever.

Cosmik: In the 80s, though, so many bands let the keyboards overrun their music, and in your case, you have to listen very closely before you even realize it's there. And yet it's so much a part of the vibe.

Trevor: Yeah, but if you pull all the keyboard tracks out, it's like "whoa, where'd everything go?" Because in some songs it's definitely predominant, while on other songs there's just enough to provide a foundation for the song to sit on.

Cosmik: More of a texture.

Trevor: Yes, and I just love the way that feels.

Cosmik: It seems like most of the reviews I've read have pinned you as an industrial band, and everybody seems hung up on comparing you to Nine Inch Nails and Ministry. Do you get pretty sick of that?

Trevor: Yes, I do, actually, because I really don't see the comparison. Especially Ministry. I think to compare our band with Ministry just shows an ignorance toward that style of music. Anyone who says that has obviously never listened to a Ministry record, because there's nothing really comparable. Al Jourgensen really doesn't do a lot of melodic stuff. It's always distorted, and it's always these great stoner-rock anthems with sampled guitars all over the place. I don't hear the similarity at all. Nine Inch Nails... maybe a little bit more, because Trent [Reznor] spends some time on melodies, and I think he sometimes works within a pop song structure. He just twists it all up and makes you think it's all brilliant, but it's really not that complicated.

Cosmik: A lot of critics take the easy way out and quote each other, you know? One hears distorted vocals and tosses you on the Nine Inch Nails shelf and then, whammo, a dozen more say the same thing based essentially on one review and distorted vocals.

Trevor: I think it's the easy way out to just label it and be done with it, but on repeated listens you can hear that we're not even distant cousins. Really, I think we have more in common with INXS and U2 than we do with Nine Inch Nails or Ministry.

Cosmik: Really? INXS? I don't hear that.

Trevor: Well, it's just the melodies, and the keyboards action. You know, they always tried to work in keyboards and alternative instruments other than bass, guitar and drums, yet they always had the rock and roll setup.

Cosmik: Has keyboard been an important part of the sound right from the beginnings of the band?

Trevor: Yeah, especially at the beginning when we spent a great deal MORE time with keyboards than with the rock band aspect of things, but because we started doing some live shows, the rock band thing became more predominant. We really wanted to incorporate that into our recordings, so we became this hybrid of rock and industrial and electronica.

Cosmik: I know there has been some shuffling in the band's lineup lately. Who is playing the keyboards on The Devil You Know, and just out of curiosity, why isn't that person listed as a band member?

Trevor: We had done the keyboard programming ourselves, but we knew our programming wasn't world class, so we used Statik on our record. He's in a band called Collide, and [producer] Sylvia Massey had worked with him before and recommended him. So we worked with him on the record, and we run sequenced tracks live and don't even have a keyboard player on stage. We just have the drummer playing to a click.

Cosmik: How distracting has the lineup shuffling been? What kind of effect has it had?

Trevor: You know, in some ways it's distracting, and in some ways it's kind of rejuvinating. You get in a new person and they bring a new bit of excitement. I don't think it's that distracting, either, because really it's a non-event. We've just been hiring rhythm sections all along since the beginning of the band, so nothing has really changed in that respect. So for every new campaign, every new album, we end up getting a new rhythm section. I don't know why that is, except that there's a lot of time off between albums and we couldn't really keep anybody on retainer, so if they found another gig, they were gone.

Cosmik: Is the drummer different between Affliction and Devil?

Trevor: Yes, and different yet again, because the drummer that played on this one isn't touring with us.

Cosmik: It seems like the drummer on Devil You Know, Robert Wagner, brought a lot to the sound of the record.

Trevor: I think he did... I think the sampling and reworking of his drums by Statik brought a lot, as well, so there's a number of different things there. People come, people go, they get other gigs. I think there are a number of different kinds of bands out there, and there are some that are high school buddies that grow up together and end up putting a band together and making music together. And I envy that situation, that you can be so close and have such a good relationship. But with our band, it's always been a couple people in the studio and then people that come on for the tours, so changes aren't as dramatic as one would think. We're used to it. It's the way it is.

Cosmik: Reminds me of Judas Priest. Halford, Downing and Tipton were always there, and then there were the ever-changing faces behind them. But they always maintained their sound.

Trevor: Yeah, the plot stays the same even if the characters move around.

Cosmik: You've recently gone through a very painful romantic breakup, too, but instead of that being a distraction, it seems to have helped you focus on your music, and I'd say it's definitely sharpened your writing. How did you get into that frame of mind to make it a positive?

Trevor: Almost everybody's natural reaction when something weird is going on in their life is to throw themselves into their work, for better or for worse. For me, music has always been about a form of release and therapy. A cathartic experience. And I just try and write songs as honestly as I can, and from the point of view of a sincere songwriter, I can't write stuff that I don't understand or know anything about. I'd love to be able to write a song about what's going on in Ireland, but I don't know enough about it. I don't think I'm qualified. And I really don't think some Canadian's opinion on that subject matters. But I do know about certain personal political issues that have affected my life, and I can sing about those. I think there's something that's universal in that everyone knows what it's like to have their heart broken, and everybody knows what it's like to be disappointed. I think these are common themes, so it was easy for me to write on them, and I think that's what made the album something people could identify with.

Cosmik: I would think a song like "Razor Blades And Bandaids" would be almost terrifying to record. Were you ever worried about leaving too much of your soul in the open?

Trevor: Oh, totally. I mean, from the writing of the lyrics to rehearsing it, every step of the way, I was afraid. It was overwhelming. But the great thing was that Sylvia was patient with me, and we were doing vocal tracks for that song one night, and she had the lyric sheet in front of her, and she kept on saying "I'm not hearing it!" I can sing it much better than the take that went on the record, but the emotional quality of the track, the on-the-edge vocal, I think helps make the song. That's what a good producer will do. Yeah, it was a scary experience, but I think it's an experience the band needed to go through because it helped us grow.

Cosmik: The breakup seems to drive the album, seems to fuel it and shape it in many ways. Would you say that's accurate?

Trevor: Yeah, I think so.

Cosmik: How did the rest of the band feel about that?

Trevor: In the band's history, it's always been them working on some music, then I would take it, arrange it and add some things, and then put lyrics to it. We've always worked that way, so it seems quite natural to them. In a lot of ways, I think, they don't really care what brings the songs out as long as they come out.

Cosmik: Sometimes one person's breakup or overdose or whatever becomes a theme and the other members of the band feel like they're out of the loop.

Trevor: No, I think everybody was kept in the loop because they all knew what I was going through, and the themes were so universal that they could relate. They were just trying to bring what they could to the party.

Cosmik: What is the significance of the album's title?

Trevor: Not a lot, and in some ways, a lot. It's kind of weird. We wanted to name the album early in the going so we didn't have to deal with it at the end. We were sitting around one night in the studio, and we just listed all the songs. "The Sure Fire? That'd be a good name..." We got down to "The Devil You Know," and we all looked at each other and said "that's it, isn't it. That's the name." I think it's cool because it's a saying I've heard all my life.

Cosmik: I'm confused, I guess, because I've never heard the saying.

Trevor: Well, it must be Canadian. (Laughs) It was like when we were all sitting up here in Canada watching the gulf war and going "why don't they just send in a team of crack troopers and kill Saddam?" And everybody would say, "nooooo, no, he's the devil you KNOW. You know what he's going to do, his plusses, his minuses, his problems." And that's what the song is about, it's a plea to the girlfriend that "I'm the one. I'm the devil you know. I might not be perfect, but you know me." It was just kind of a failing plea.

Cosmik: There were some other topics, of course. One of the most emotional, I would think, would be the song about your good friend suffering from the AIDS virus, the one called "Deeper." The first part seems angry, and the second seems compassionate, like you're helping him let go. What was the anger directed at?

Trevor: I just see the hypocricy of drug companies and the administration of research dollars. It drives me crazy. Have you seen the movie And The Band Played On? I wonder what would have happened if people would have worked together for the betterment of humanity instead of for their egos, and maybe this disease wouldn't be as rampant as it is now. Nobody should die from this disease. This is awful.

Cosmik: "Sparkle and Shine" is about the late Shannon Hoon of Blind Melon. It's an angry song. What were you feeling there?

Trevor: You know, when the Shannon Hoon thing happened, it took me right back to when I was living in Vancouver, going through all kinds of insanity, and I'd flown home to visit my parents, who have a farm in the middle of Canada. A buddy of mine phoned me and said "you know Curt Cobain just died." I was stunned, and I said "How, overdose?" "No, killed himself." Then not too much later, the Shannon Hoon thing happened. I started to really think about that whole thing. A lot of people make fun of you when you're an artist, like "you're a little off-set," or something like that, but it's true that there's definitely something wrong with you when you need to get in front of people every night and have them applaud your work. It means you have a huge self-esteem issue that you should probably get some therapy for. When that article came out, I was shocked by how little people did to try to understand that aspect of his character. They just pushed him out there to play to make sure they had the record sales they needed to sustain this band's career, which I guess was noble in some ways, but in other ways it was feeding the machine and not looking out for the people. It made me mad. A lot of times, I think people can't see the human side of the business, and the pressure of the touring and the schedule. It's not like a "oh, woe is me" rock star song, it's more like taking away all of the outside factors and looking at it from a purely human point of view.

Cosmik: It seems like there's such a willingness to exploit that dark side of an artist, too, because it sells records.

Trevor: Yeah, and it also is encouraged. A lot of times it seems like your label and the people around you are being a bunch of enablers to your drug problems and to your other vices. They can't, so they live vicariously through you. When your vices come to the point where they're overtaking your life, that's the ugly side of it all, and they don't want to vicariously go through that, so that's when they cut you off. You're like "hey, you helped me get here, where are you now?"

Cosmik: Do you wonder if there can be a letdown after such a powerful emotional outburst? Like "what's going to drive me on the next one?"

Trevor: I think about it, but when it comes time to write it, I'll just write it. I still have enough wonderment. I'm really analytical, almost to the point of nausea, and I think about life so much. Why am I here, what's it all about, on and on and on and on. I'm constantly thinking about that. So I don't know if I'll ever run out of things that make me go "hmmm."

Cosmik: I want to compliment you on your writing, by the way. You have a gift for timing in your lyrics that I admire and envy. How long have you been writing, and who were some of your role models?

Trevor: I've been writing a long time. Right out of high school. As for influences, it's back to the 80s. INXS, REM, U2, Killing Joke. You mentioned timing... I was obsessed with Bob Dylan and the way that he used phrases, the way they could be taken from the beginning of the phrase, and then changed at the end of the phrase in such a way that if you took the first half of the phrase it would seem to mean one thing, but if you only looked at the last half into the first part of the next one, it would mean something totally different. I also write poetry, and I try to do similar things, where things connect. I have a poem I just wrote that has the words "Religion looks different," and "now" is a separate line, so you can look at it and read it as "Religion looks different now," or you can read "now" with the next line, like "Religion looks different. Now I have seen the coming of the Lord, and he is paranoid." That's not a great example, but it gives you an idea of the way the beginnings and ends are tied together in this woven pattern. I try and work on that with the lyrics of our songs, and I like the melody to indicate when those changes are going to come, but I don't know if it's that conscious. I think if you just do it enough it becomes part of your style.

Cosmik: Do you write the melodies, as well?

Trevor: Yes.

Cosmik: Don't hang up, Trevor, but I could swear I heard a little bit of Queen in the chorus of "Razor Blades And Bandaids." Just a little bit of Freddie Mercury's melodic influence, maybe.

Trevor: Really? (Laughs) That's so funny, because I'm the oldest in my family, and yet I've never listened to a Black Sabbath record, a Queen record, a Led Zeppelin record, Pink Floyd, or Genesis from start to finish. I may have heard cuts, but I've not owned them, nor have I put them on and listened to them.

Cosmik: You know, that makes you the only person in the hemisphere.

Trevor: It does. People look at me and go "you're nuts!" They put Led Zeppelin on and I'll say "turn that shit off!" Part of the reason, too, is that I think if I never expose myself to that stuff, I can't be drawn in to those styles and habits. I notice patterns in rock singers' melodies that I think they picked up from listening to too much Led Zeppelin.

Cosmik: Could have sworn I heard a hint of Freddie.

Trevor: Well, you know, when I was a kid I was in choirs a lot, and I get the impression Freddie Mercury may have been influenced by a lot of classical and church music, so that might be where that trait comes from.

Cosmik: The sound that would have to be considered "THE SOUND" is huge. In a song like "Elegant," it's like you're singing in the eye of a hurricane. What does that do for your own performance?

Trevor: It creates a frenzy, and you're allowed to let that frenzy carry you away. I like that a lot. I like that reckless abandon where you're just apart from it all and, at the same time, a part of it all.

Cosmik: As I understand it, the aim was to make The Devil You Know come as close to your live sound as possible. First of all, how close do you think you came?

Trevor: I think we're close, but I still think we're a lot more intense live. I don't know why that is. Maybe just the difference of live guitars being right in your face.

Cosmik: Do you have live recordings to analyze so you can figure out if that intensity is even transferable to tape?

Trevor: Yeah, we have some tapes, and yes, it's a hard thing to capture because you can't under estimate the visual impact of the band.

Cosmik: Did your producer, Sylvia Massy, see your live show before you went into the studio?

Trevor: No, interestingly enough. She missed the opportunity due to prior commitments, so she only saw us in rehearsal.

Cosmik: Do you intend to work with Sylvia next time?

Trevor: We may or may not, I don't know. It just depends on scheduling.

Cosmik: Will you have whoever produces the next one see some shows first in order to know what the sound is you're trying to reproduce?

Trevor: I think that would be a good idea. And even though we got to spend quite a bit of time in pre-production with Sylvia, I'd like to spend even more time with that next time.

Cosmik: What kinds of things did you do to try to get that live sound?

Trevor: Just the way we set up. We set up in big rooms. We recorded in Van Nuys, at Sound City, and we set up in a really big recording room where you can record a lot of it, the bass, drums, and guitars, right there live off the floor. So that helped achieve part of the goal.

Cosmik: Sylvia's worked with some of the best, including Prince and the Chili Peppers. What did you learn from working with her that you might take forward with you?

Trevor: Oh, a lot of things. Sylvia brought back one of my beliefs that there's nothing you can't do in the studio. If someone says "oh, you can't do that in the studio," you know you're in the wrong place. There is nothing Sylvia wouldn't try. If you can hear it in your head, it can be created in the studio. You just need someone who is patient and creative. And having a good knowledge of compressors and microphones is important. I think Sylvia taught us that a combination of mike and compressor can do a lot to shape the sound. Before that, we just thought "hey, it's a mike and a compressor, let's go to tape," but they each have their characteristics, and you have to take every one of those things into account.

Cosmik: She definitely got some great sounds out of you.

Trevor: I was thrilled. The whole experience was amazing. She's a great producer, and it was just fun every day coming to the studio. You could feel it while we were making the record, like we were really doing something.

Cosmik: You've gone from a Vancouver club act to touring with Kiss and Metallica to performing on the Edgefest Main Stage. How fast does it feel like things are happening for you now?

Trevor: It doesn't really feel that quick. We've been a band for five years, and we've been gradually growing. It sort of comes in quick jolts, but there's a lot of down-time. I think it's at the right pace. I wouldn't want it to be happening any faster, because I like the way it's happening right now. It doesn't seem overwhelming at all. If you take it day by day, it's not as overwhelming as you'd think. One day you get the call, "Kiss would like you to do some dates," you get excited but you realize there's a lot of work to be done to get ready for the dates. You go do the dates, THEN you freak out going "oh my GOD! We just toured with Kiss!" But during the time that you're doing it, you are DOING it, and you've got to concentrate on getting it done. Any band will tell you that each hurdle you clear gives you that much more strength for the next one, and everything sort of slows down and it doesn't become the frenzied thing that people on the outside think it is.

Cosmik: Did you pick up any pearls of wisdom from the old timers on that tour?

Trevor: The one thing I always notice is the professionalism, or the lack thereof, depending on the band. With Kiss, it was totally professional. The way they run their show, how they make sure things get done on schedule, on time, and that the audience gets the best possible show, it's like they do everything for their show. It's the pinnacle of their existence. It's everything. And that's kind of cool to see.

Cosmik: Before you go, there's something I've really been wanting to ask you about. There's a hidden track on The Devil You Know that is a woman speaking in Japanese. I found a partial translation on the Internet. Let me read what I have here... Love is patient. Love is pathetic and not jealous. Love never brag and never get excited. And love don't lose politeness. Don't consider its own interests. Don't get irritated and don't bear a grudge. (This part wasn't translated,) and pleased at the truth. Love desires everything, believes everything Puts up with everything And is patient with everything. Love never dies. Is that an accurate translation?

Trevor: That's pretty close.

Cosmik: Is that something you wrote?

Trevor: No, it's actually second Corinthians, chapter 13, verses 4 to 8.

Cosmik: No way!

Trevor: (Laughs) Sure is.

Cosmik: Shows the extent of my Sunday schooling.

Trevor: Well, mine was kind of limited, but I knew about it from relatives, and it was a chapter on love. I felt it was a good capper to end the album on a positive note.

Cosmik: So after all the heartache and pain you sing about on the album, and after a series of empty hidden tracks, there is this poem. The message?

Trevor: Despite it all, life goes on.

Created April 26, 1999