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SUMMARY
Renaissance
...the onus now rests with art to provide a new avenue
for human consciousness
J.R.R. Tolkien
REPRESENTATION OF SILENCE
You know,
The role of art in society
Horoscopic Expressionism
Hello! (A new subscriber)
between two worlds
hi
Art therapy
your invitation to describe myself
... eight hundred forty-three pictures posted
Introduction - Art Mind
Introductions
greetings!
Welcome message
introducing myself & a question
art and children today
Art in the Net
renga
decency - Morality & the Arts
about culture in it's high sense
arts education
Art and money and society
Reply to Messages
Replay to Welcome message
When Jews and Gentiles Marry
Hi !
What about literature?
UG-PsychList
ivory-tower culture
Some responses to your questions
New to the group!
New member to ARCO
Affirming discrimination
Music/Language/Psychotherapy
Renaissance
Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:48:20 GMT Hans Bosman At 21.50 26-01-96 -0500, Jill
wrote: >Hello Hans, >Are you also a student of esoteric writings?
A warm hello. >A portrait of Helena Roerich, by her son Svetoslav, is
amongst my things. > If you would ever like to share part of a letter,
please know that I enjoy >reading her thoughts. >Peace, >Jill
Hello Jill, Yes, I am also a student of esoteric writings. I think I know
the portrait you are referring to. Perhaps you like one of the opening
phrases of the first letter in the book, written in 1929 and addressed
to : *my young friends* * The book of new discoveries and the light of
daring is open before humanity,and you have already heard about the approach
of the New Era. Every epoch has its Call, and the calling foundation of
the New Era will be the power of thought. That is why we call you to understand
the great significance of creative thought, and the first step in this
direction will be the _opening of consciousness_, freedom from all prejudices
and from all tendentiousness and forced concepts.* The books have been
published by the Agni Yoga Society in the U.S. As far as I know they still
exist. Have you heard of them? I have also read that there is a Roerich
Museum in New York, where his whole collection is exhibited. Peace, Hans
=========================================================================
Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:25:00 -0500 Jill Alessandra Dear Hans, Your interest
in Helena Roerich's writings has been a gift. It has been several years
since I've read her letters. I appologize for my delay in responding. Ah,
but it is richness to read her thoughts. In their original Russian they
are pure, but some of the translations done by the Agni Yoga Society are
not accurate. "The book of new discoveries and the light of daring
is open..." Is open. Not: "is opening..." Interesting. "The
power of thought," and "The opening of consciousness." Yes,
yes. How our thoughts do shape our conditions and opportunities. How the
proper use of thought and freedom for right thought does seem to be a war
going on in our time. Isn't Life exciting. Yes, the Agni Yoga Society still
exists. I have purchased books from them in the past. They are located
at the same address as the Roerich Museum in New York. In 1986 it was possible
to purchase a pack of postcards (of N. Roerich's paintings from the Museum's
collection) and small posters of some images, as well as many of both Roerich's
books. This is where I purchased the portrait of Helena Roerich that I
mentioned previously. Her son painted a sensitive, engaging image of a
strong yet very feminine woman. Do you know anything about the museum of
N. Roerich's works that recently opened in Moscow? I would love to know
more about it. It seems to me that the N.R. Museum in this country has
mainly those canvases he painted while on expeditions. (My understanding
is that expiditions were financed by the contractual selling of paintings
created during the trips.) Again, I cannot tell you how much it means to
me to be directed back to the letters. They were my warm and rich friends
during some quite solitary times. Now they add a timely connection to what
I call Reality. Thank you. Peace, Jill Art - http://users.aol.com/apriorip/spiritual.html
=========================================================================
...the onus now rests with art
to provide a new avenue for human consciousness
Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:09:35 -0500 Ed Atkeson Gary Smith writes >My
interests lie in the development of an artistic consciousness in >this
age. What I mean by this is that I believe that art, and art as >a communicative
medium, holds the key to the future. Because of the >failure of modern
society to guide humanity, the onus now rests with >art to provide a
new avenue for human consciousness. You put the onus on art? I'm afraid
I don't get it. Could you expand? =========================================================================
Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:25:42 +0000 gary smith Dear Ed, Your question concerning
the role of art. What I mean is that the onus must be on art as art provides
the only mode of thought that is capable of breaking the stranglehold of
dualistic and metaphysical thought. This is not easy to explain in a few
short lines. Very briefly, the mode of western thought as Martin Heidegger,
Derrida and others have stated, is dualistic and informed by a mode of
consciousness which separates and categorizes. The logocentric and rational
thought structure of the west is in, this century, running down due to
its inability to either explain or deal with reality. Heidegger, for example,
turns from rational thought to the poetic and meditative because he realizes
that the future lies in thought which can be broadly called artistic. But
the problem lies in the definition of art. Under art I include quantum
physics, the thinking of psychologists like Hillman, in other words all
those who think in that mode of thought which is non-dualistic. Therefore
art becomes a new form of consciousness which includes many more aspects
than the conventional meaning it has had in the past. Every word I have
written would need at least ten pages of explanation. I know that this
is vague, but let me know if you would like to continue the discourse.
regards. Gary. =========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:52:27 +0000 Arno L. Goudsmit >>I am interested
in psychotherapeutic interactions, esp. those where something >>new
is invented, say a new metaphor or a new view. Then I think there is a
>>relation to artistic creation, which has something to do with leaving
the >>domain of language and returning into it again. > Yes absolutely,
could you expand on this a bit? Especially creation and >appreciation
of art being about "leaving the domain of language." Can this
>(leaving) be an important factor in what we would call a transcendent
>experience? It might be, yes. My interest in 'leaving language' focuses
upon our incapacity to say how we do some things, and only afterwards find
words to them. It is a concern with our own pleasure of doing things that
may bring us out of language, but this goes inadvertently, as in a hidden
seduction. If you go for searching it, you may end in some technology of
altered consciousness, which, to my opinion, is a different matter. arno
=========================================================================
J.R.R. Tolkien
Fri, 2 Feb 1996 07:27:53 -0700 Fred Bauder J.R.R. Tolkien, Artist and
Illustrator was published in 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company, New York,
Boston, Authors Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull. Many of Tolkien's
drawings, painting and book illustrations are presented in a biographical
context. This material may be interesting to students of Melanie Klein's
theories of the depressive position. Look for the drawing "End of
the World." (an elementary problem for humans is that first great
loss as one encounters deprivation, (my amateur attempt to partially explain
the underlying dymnamic) Fred =========================================================================
REPRESENTATION OF SILENCE
Tue, 13 Feb 1996 00:10:35 -0100 Danilo Curci Dear friends, I know at
least one art's work on SCREAM... (italian: l'URLo) Do you know someone
that made a representation of SILENCE ? Vladimir Jankelevitch wrote something
about, with reference to music, and to ... IRONY. On the list, some of
you wrote about HUMOUR. Is a blank line like silence ? And which is its
colour: black, white, or blue... as the unlimited sky ? How can a sculptor,
Mark, model THE SILENCE ? Is HE, or SHE... ? woman or man, thing or no-thing
? We can touche it (her?) and taste it... like snow ? Which is its parfum
? Is it THE NIGHT, now, when I'm writing, just broken from a murmur of
my dog and the bzzz of my PC ? Or is it better the movement of my cat,
suddenly and silently here, then there? So it can be PEACE..... (but a
few miles far from here a BOMB can fall down) no, here, it's peace... so
is IT falsh ? What is it hidden behind ? And, if it would be WRONG, may
be also my -?- could better be a -!- , or -:- and a SMILE :) Danilo =========================================================================
Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:52:30 -0600 Bill Hooper Silence has been represented
in music by John Cage in his piece 4'33" for piano. The pianist sits
quietly before an open piano for four minutes ands thirty-three seconds,
then leaves the stage. Of course, there is no silence, for there are environmental
sounds happening during the "performance." The premise of Cage
was that any sound or no sound at all is as valid or "good" as
any other sound or silence. Is absolute silence possible apart from a specially-designed,
sound-proof room? =========================================================================
Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:33:45 -0800 Margaret Crosby When
I try to envision Silence, I think of a spot in the forest at night. It
is scene of snow-covered pine trees. The sky is illuminated by a multitude
of stars. The ground is covered in a blanket of freshly fallen snow without
any trace of movement. Snow, for me, is a perfect "picture" of
Silence. The "sound" of Silence is depicted for me by a poignant
piece of music, "Adagio for Strings," by Barber. I am breathing
it in even as I write this post. Silence is the most powerful form of communication.
Nothing is said, but everything can be revealed. My name is Margaret (Maggie)
and I will attempt to introduce my self to the list. I was born many years
ago in Totnes-Devonshire, England, the child of an English war-bride and
Italian-American soldier. I have lived in the United States many years
and presently make my home near Los Angeles, California. I am a first year
graduate student in Clinical Psychology. For as long as I can remember
I have always loved Literature. When my own voice has failed me, I have
turned to the written words of others to express what I could not. Literature,
Music,...and Art allow me to touch the soul of an other. Through my own
writings, I have offered my own soul for inspection. I believe the Arts
to be both "Mask and Shadow", hiding and at once revealing the
psychological life. Communicating over the Internet has prevented me from
feeling like an invisible entity in this vast world in which we live. It
is a pleasant invasion into the necessary, but sometimes lonely, solitary
life of a student. I look forward to learning from and contributing to
this list. Thank you Danilo, for such a wonderful idea! Maggie =========================================================================
You know,
Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:46:10 -0500 Ed Atkeson You know, Yug, yug, mmmuh,
come up for a little xbreath xinnawhile xbreathe viscous* xresist xgravity.**
Think mudfish, ecstatic molasses death.*** Somebody has to adapt xbe the
first xfill your lungs, there is no up.**** * "Suck" is a curse
now, we're so repelled at the sensual implication ** Don't need no smaller
planet, just a heavier atmosphere *** Two workmen die when molasses tank
bursts, Port of Albany **** Sex, not important xsleep, not important xfood,
not important xbreath, not important xjust heartbeat, beat, beat, beat,
beat. You know, I'm not entirely suited for this I should leave what was
I thinking anybody will tell you they'll lock you up for your own good
it's easy to forget and drown ecstatic, thinking xI'll just breathe it
xlike warp-oh-matic xtoo much right brain not enough right mind xlike a
mud fish, right, like those guys that died working on the molasses tank,
like each breath is this lifeboat that's just out of reach and you can
see the faces xpeople making that titanic decision, your eyes as wide as
the water. Please let me out of here, let me grow up Republican. Get me
a job at the Department of Taxation and Finance. =========================================================================
The role of art in society
Fri, 1 Mar 1996 05:19:30 -0500 Denman F. Maroney I propose we discuss
the role of art (in the broad sense) in society. I live in the US, so I
propose we start with the role of art in US society. The role of art in
US society is very unclear. Some random thoughts on the subject. Alexis
de Tocqueville said Americans don't have much use for art because they
don't have much time for leisure because they're too busy rising and falling
in the social scale. An article in a recent issue of the New York Times
Magazine described the current crop of extremely wealthy Americans as people
(mostly white males) who spend all their time working and unlike the old
robber barons have no use for philanthropy or art collecting or giving
back to society in any way, shape or form. Max Weber traces the Protestant
ethic and the spirit of capitalism to Benjamin Franklin, who taught us
that a penny saved is a penny earned, and a stitch in time saves nine among
other pernicious inanities. De Tocqueville said Americans think the beautiful
should be useful. New Orleans jazz exemplified this -- it helped mourn
the dead. The king is dead; long live the swing. When the cold war ended,
the Republicans needed a new enemy. First (thanks to Jesse Helms) it was
the NEA (National Endowment for the Arts), then (thanks to Newt Gingrich)
it was government in general, and now (thanks to Pat Buchanan) it's everyone
except unborn babies. How do you argue with someone who objects to having
his/her tax dollars spent on art s/he finds objectionable? Why are Americans
terrified of and suspicious of art and artists? The fast answer is artists
don't think money is everything. The first time the US government commissioned
a work of art, the result was a sculpture of George Washington -- nude.
It has never been exhibited. -- Denman Maroney =========================================================================
Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:06:52 -0500 Karen Wickre >>How do you argue with
someone who objects to having his/her tax dollars spent on art s/he finds
objectionable? Why are Americans terrified of and suspicious of art and
artists? The fast answer is artists don't think money is everything.<<
These are good questions that have haunted America since deTocqueville's
time, or before. Why are Americans terrified of art? Because it's not "utilitarian,"
for one thing - the country was founded by people in a hurry, people with
a country to tame, and all that jazz - and fine art, which was so integral
to European cultures, was put aside in favor of building towns and roads
first. Art quickly became just a frill -- we would add "artistic touches"
when the day's "real" work was done. (As the 19th century proceeded,
that meant 'send for the ladies when you want to civilize the place, they'll
add lace curtains and refinement.') And we (collectively) also developed
a complex about Europe: seat of High Culture, we all yearned to go there
for our own refinement. We imitated up a storm, embellished and mixed styles
and schools like crazy, and were all the while dying to be considered upper
class, aesthetically acceptable -- just as good as the Europeans. (So we
compensated by convincing ourselves that we were better!) The real question
is more like, how do you convince someone that art - any art - is good
for the soul precisely because it's *not* part of our mundane and utilitarian
lives? Karen =========================================================================
Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:05:04 -0500 Jan B. Chase I apologize in advance for
the length of this response. (I have lots to say on the subject of art
& society !) I've divided my missive into two parts, each of which
I am posting separately. I believe that the problem of educating Americans
to the arts is only one part of a tangled web which involves far more than
removing basic collective fears. It is a cultural issue which relates directly
back to the core of our ethical beliefs. These beliefs, which stem from
the original Puritan work ethic, have devolved into materialistic grubbing
the like of which has never been seen in the history of civilization (including
the notorious ancient Verdana Empire). We are experiencing capitalism at
its worst (so far!). To date, the discussion here appears to relate primarily
to adults. I am also deeply concerned with the needs of American children-
our next generation of art viewers and participants. In European cultures,
the acquisition of knowledge of the arts is an important objective which
is addressed throughout a student's academic training. Here in the United
States, for a variety of socio-economic and political reasons, our schools
have increasingly been forced to focus only on the acquisition of rote
academic skills. Americans have overlooked the fact that the development
of creative thinking is crucial to the growth of our children. Creativity
is that skill which sets human beings apart from all other creatures. It
allows us, individually and collectively, to clarify values, interact socially,
and solve problems at many different levels. Americans are also ignoring
the fact that the arts are an irreplaceable means through which to foster
creative thinking. In each of their unique forms, the arts touch the human
soul. Once a soul has been touched, the growth of creativity can follow.
In the United States, arts programs have been drastically curtailed within
the curricula of almost all elementary and secondary school systems due
to federal and state funding cut-backs. At the level of higher education,
many colleges and universities no longer require the completion of arts
appreciation courses for graduation. Even many specialized art schools
which have in the past been known for their teaching of classical arts
(such as Ringling School of Art & Design, one of my alma maters) now
focus primarily on commercial art, "because it pays." America
is experiencing a negative cycle in the development of the arts. I believe
that this downward spiral will be an essential factor in the creative stagnation,
and thus the ultimate demise, of our society. How can we break this cycle?
I have a few thoughts on the subject. =========================================================================
Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:12:14 -0500 Jan B. Chase As the best learning is holistic,
so must be our approach to arts education. We must open the doors of our
communities in an active, cooperative effort to make the arts more available
and accessible to ALL individuals. Here are some ideas: 1) We need to make
a concerted collective effort to return arts programs to our schools, at
all levels. We can do this through petitioning school districts and universities,
by contacting our local newspapers and lobbying congress, by making our
neighbors aware of the problem, and by voting. We can work together to
establish liaisons between our existing local arts organizations and our
universities & school districts. We can also solicit funding for school
arts programs from corporate sources within our communities, and even recruit
volunteers (and volunteer, ourselves) to teach arts in our children's schools.
School systems are eager (read: desperate) for community involvement and
assistance. 2) We must create additional learning environments beyond the
walls of our classrooms, within our communities themselves. These environments
may take many forms: arts museums, galleries and centers; arts programs
through the media of television and the Internet; grass-roots arts cooperatives;
street performances (currently prohibited in many locations); city-wide
arts festivals; etc. 3) Arts activities must be incorporated into the daily
lives of our citizens, and must be accessible to all. Therefore, we must
find ways to make them free or low-cost, and/or available on a sliding
fee scale based upon family income. One way to do this is to combine forces
with other community-based educational facilities. These facilities may
have more funding resources at their fingertips, and if not, people can
generally accomplish more toward a common goal when working together as
a large body. For example, arts and sciences augment each other naturally,
and should no longer be mutually exclusive as they are in so many of our
communities. 4) It is important to create INTERACTIVE educational arts
environments. Americans, in particular, love to be involved on an active,
hands-on level. For instance, note the spectacular increase in hands-on
science and children's museums, Renaissance fairs, and butterfly exhibits
over the past decade. Theme parks are enormously popular throughout the
United States, primarily due to their hands-on, interactive nature. Currently,
there is also an upswing of interest in "backroom tours" at public
facilities of all kinds. Why can we not create these same kinds of hands-on
learning environments in the arts, as well? They would probably even be
financially self-sufficient! The arts are of irreplaceable value and of
absolute necessity to our lives and the lives of our children. I believe
that if we look within our communities, we will find countless opportunities
to bring about creative development and expression through the arts. These
are opportunities which we must NOT ignore. Questions... 1) How do the
ideas I have put forth apply to other twentieth-century cultures around
the globe? For example, do any European countries currently experience
any of the same problems we do in the United States, and if so, would any
of these ideas be viable there? 2) In most less "developed" (i.e.:
Americanized??) cultures (historically, Native American Indians, African
tribes, mountain people of Peru, etc.), the arts in all their forms have
been incorporated as an integral part of everyday life. Modern society
appears to have successfully isolated all arts from the utilitarian mechanics
of daily living. Does the "development" of a culture HAVE to
mean the demise of the arts? What "developed" cultures continue
to incorporate both? (Perhaps looking at how they have managed to do this
will help us in our search for ways in which to rectify the current problem
in the United States and elsewhere.) 3) World-wide, in so-called "developing"
countries, are the arts decreasing in value, or retaining their original
worth to all citizens? (Note Costa Rica, which appears to be increasingly
torn apart in its attempts to follow America's technological and financial
leads while retaining its national heritage.) =========================================================================
Mon, 4 Mar 1996 07:53:03 -0500 Ed Atkeson Denman Maroney>>> How
do you argue with someone who objects to having his/her tax dollars spent
on art s/he finds objectionable? You could tell her that it's only about
a penny or two a year. Not to worry. Your couch cushions get a way bigger
endowment than controversial art. Denman Maroney>>> Why are Americans
terrified of and suspicious of art and artists? The fast answer is artists
don't think money is everything. Pretty scary you have to admit. Ed Atkeson
=========================================================================
Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:21:35 -0800 Declan & wenchpoet >Alexis de Tocqueville
said Americans don't have much use for art because >they don't have
much time for leisure because they're too busy rising and >falling in
the social scale. That's been mostly true for U.S. baby-boomers (if we
are to generalize) since the inception of postmodernist themes in art.
However, the lack of leisure time due to the cultural focus on manufacturing
industry is slowly changing to a focus on high-tech cottage industry (i.e.
telecommuting) for the Gen-Xers, who are increasingly rejecting the notion
of a life that revolves around corporate culture. High-tech is also a factor
in the shift from art as something you merely "observe" to art
that is interactive. I'm willing to hold out on claiming the U.S. as hopelessly
art-ignorant until I see what contributions the Gen-Xers make to the shaping
of our culture as we enter the 21st century. >Why are Americans terrified
of and suspicious of art and artists? The fast >answer is artists don't
think money is everything. > I can't think of a better compliment to
artists and writers than to be feared by the mainstream. >The first
time the US government commissioned a work of art, the result was >a
sculpture of George Washington -- nude. It has never been exhibited. What
is the source of this information? It's priceless. I love it. --T.L. Kelly
=========================================================================
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:49:01 -0500 Ed Atkeson >Alexis de Tocqueville said
Americans don't have much use for art because >they don't have much
time for leisure because they're too busy rising and >falling in the
social scale. T.L. Kelly>>> However, the lack of leisure time
due to the cultural focus on manufacturing industry is slowly changing
to a focus on high-tech cottage industry (i.e. telecommuting) for the Gen-Xers,
who are increasingly rejecting the notion of a life that revolves around
corporate culture. High-tech is also a factor in the shift from art as
something you merely "observe" to art that is interactive. I'm
willing to hold out on claiming the U.S. as hopelessly art-ignorant until
I see what contributions the Gen-Xers make to the shaping of our culture
as we enter the 21st century. --------------------------------------- I
don't know from deTocqueville, except noticing his recent popularity with
the powerful, but I wonder if his observations would be the same now as
a hundred and fifty years ago. I picture him flying low over the continent
in the evening, helicoptering, coast to coast. Risky. He sees the flickering
glow in each little separate, toy-filled house. He wonders about this odd
light, cold hearth. For Americans, there is no society within which to
climb. The television tells us where happiness lies, and we believe it.
Products. Buying. Art doesn't fit in to this scheme, so it is inevitably
out. Community, society is also out, doesn't fit, except that amount of
apparent society needed to sustain the fashion industry. (Turn it down
a minute hon, did you hear a helicopter?) It is odd, that this society
of visual images would turn away from art, which exists in, and is experienced
within our visual field. The image itself is unimportant, though. It is
important only as a representation of a product. The product is important,
buying is important. The helicopter pilot explains to AdT that the people
watching the television are really the product. Their eyes and minds are
delivered to the corporate messages by a kind of easily consumed irresistable
sugar-for-the-mind series of images. This delivery system is one of our
our most subtle and advanced areas of technology. People are delivered
to the corporate messages for five or six hours a day. It consumes their
lives like a drug. Addictive. T.L., how does telecommunicating change much
about corporate culture? Where are these people telecommunicating to? Maybe
they will be more interested in having art objects around since they're
home? Maybe they'll go out into their own low-density sprawl neighborhoods
seeking a bit of social contact since they're not thrown together with
the folks at work. Maybe they'll move back to the city upon discovering
their uninteresting surroundings? Maybe. T.L., is hitting keys really interacting?
Interactive art, hmmm, Alan Kaprow's happenings in the mid-60s? =========================================================================
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:37:21 -0800 Jim Delany Hello I'm Jim Delany, a math
prof at a state university in California. I was born in western Massachusetts
and spent my childhood there as well as Florida, Texas, and California.
I went to college in San Diego and graduate school in Iowa. I'm not an
artist in any sense, but my mother and brother are both painters. I subscribed
to this group last November and have been lurking around, hoping to gain
insight into the world of art as described by artists. Unfortunately an
"immortalist" nearly destroyed this group at the outset, and
activity has been very low ever since. Numerous recent postings have been
interesting and encouraging. I want to thank every one who has contributed,
especially Danilo Curci. For a time Danilo seemed to keep this group going
all by himself. I like the tone of recent letters regarding art and culture
for the masses as opposed to the elite, especially those of Jan Chase.
I have printed them out to share with my friends. Last year my wife and
I used our life savings to buy a little house in deepest France, in Lot,
outside a farming village of 300 people. An American capitalist would say
the area is very backward, but we see it as a place rich in culture. We
were amazed at the role that the arts play in everyday family life. Much
of the social life takes place at Chez Nicole, one of the two restaurants.
The walls of the dining room serve as a gallery for local painters. An
area outside is used for staging plays and musical events (as well as petanque)
and such events occur throughout the summer. For example there is a "Fete
de la Musique" in June in which dozens of townsfolk of all ages display
their musical talents. Most everyone in town attends, from the youngest
to the oldest, and it lasts all night. So you can see why Ms. Chase's comments
on the role of art in society rang so true to me. I hope the discussion
along these lines continues. Sincerely, Jim http://www.calpoly.edu/~jdelany
=========================================================================
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:49:26 -0800 Declan & wenchpoet > T.L., how does
telecommunicating change much about corporate culture? >Where are these
people telecommunicating to? Maybe they will be more >interested in
having art objects around since they're home? Maybe they'll go >out
into their own low-density sprawl neighborhoods seeking a bit of social
>contact since they're not thrown together with the folks at work. Maybe
>they'll move back to the city upon discovering their uninteresting
>surroundings? Maybe. Telecommunicating changes the environment in which
we work from one that is centrally located away from the home to one that
is located nowhere, by virtue of being located everywhere. There'll be
no place to socially "climb" in or out of. The structures now
in place to uphold the notion of "social climbing" will self-destruct.
It'll be a mess for awhile, and artists will suffer along with everybody
else. But once the new "society" takes hold, there will be call
for artistic expressions of that society, of what makes it beautiful, not
beautiful, meaningful, worthless, etc. The modernist principles of aestheticism
won't work here. Art, too, will be redefined. This not much different in
principle from the transformations art has gone through for centuries.
> T.L., is hitting keys really interacting? Interactive art, hmmm, Alan
>Kaprow's happenings in the mid-60s? > That's assuming that "hitting
keys" will always be the way in which we use the technology to interact.
There are developments in the works that will render the keyboard a dinosaur.
Of course, no medium, no matter how sophisticated, can take the place of
face-to-face "neighbourly" interaction. Art included. T.L. Kelly
http://www.teleport.com/~room101/wench.htm
=========================================================================
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:35:03 -0500 Denman F. Maroney On Mar 04, 1996 14:21:35,
'Declan & wenchpoet wrote: >Gen-Xers... >are increasingly rejecting
the notion of a life that revolves around corporate >culture. Gen-Xers
are hardly unique in this regard. Just such a rejection was at the core
of the counterculture movement of the boomers of the 60s, whom you may
be conflating with the yuppies of the 80s. Just such a rejection also motivated
Beats, Bolsheviks, Marxists and so on back in time to Diogenes and beyond.
>High-tech is also a factor in the shift from art as something you >merely
"observe" to art that is interactive. I'm willing to hold out
on >claiming the U.S. as hopelessly art-ignorant until I see what contributions
the >Gen-Xers make to the shaping of our culture as we enter the 21st
century. Interactivity is not predicated upon the involvement of a computer!
Making music, for example, is far more interactive than computers will
ever be, as you can easily verify by comparing the music of (say) Madonna
and Monk. Ditto the performing arts generally (a category from which I
would exclude Madonna). The interaction of performers and audiences defines
the experience for both. Kasparov said, "I was stressed. The computer
was not." (or words to that effect). >I can't think of a better
compliment to artists and writers than to be feared >by the mainstream.
Yes but how are we supposed to make a living? -- Denman Maroney =========================================================================
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:50:03 -0500 Ed Atkeson EA>>> T.L., how does
telecommunicating change much about corporate culture? Where are these
people telecommunicating to? Maybe they will be more interested in having
art objects around since they're home? Maybe they'll go out into their
own low-density sprawl neighborhoods seeking a bit of social contact since
they're not thrown together with the folks at work. Maybe they'll move
back to the city upon discovering their uninteresting surroundings? Maybe.
From T.L. Kelly >>> Telecommunicating changes the environment
in which we work from one that is centrally located away from the home
to one that is located nowhere, by virtue of being located everywhere.
There'll be no place to socially "climb" in or out of. The structures
now in place to uphold the notion of "social climbing" will self-destruct.
It'll be a mess for awhile, and artists will suffer along with everybody
else. But once the new "society" takes hold, there will be call
for artistic expressions of that society, of what makes it beautiful, not
beautiful, meaningful, worthless, etc. The modernist principles of aestheticism
won't work here. Art, too, will be redefined. This not much different in
principle from the transformations art has gone through for centuries.
Does social climbing have anything to do with whether you go to an office
or work at home? Is social climbing a bad thing? Every cell of society
comes with a hierarchy of some kind. I'm climbing best I can. Everybody
does it, it's natural, isn't it? What actual percentage of the actual workforce
will be actually be able to telecommunicate . . . actually? Will they like
it, or is it also pleasant to work with others, in rooms and buildings,
cities? best, Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:47:56 -0800 Declan & wenchpoet At 07:50 AM 3/6/96
-0500, you wrote: >EA>>> T.L., how does telecommunicating change
much about corporate culture? >Where are these people telecommunicating
to? Maybe they will be more >interested in having art objects around
since they're home? Maybe they'll go >out into their own low-density
sprawl neighborhoods seeking a bit of social >contact since they're
not thrown together with the folks at work. Maybe >they'll move back
to the city upon discovering their uninteresting >surroundings? Maybe.
> >>From T.L. Kelly >>> >Telecommunicating changes
the environment in which we work from one that is >centrally located
away from the home to one that is located nowhere, by >virtue of being
located everywhere. There'll be no place to socially "climb"
>in or out of. The structures now in place to uphold the notion of "social
>climbing" will self-destruct. It'll be a mess for awhile, and
artists will >suffer along with everybody else. But once the new "society"
takes hold, >there will be call for artistic expressions of that society,
of what makes >it beautiful, not beautiful, meaningful, worthless, etc.
The modernist >principles of aestheticism won't work here. Art, too,
will be redefined. >This not much different in principle from the transformations
art has gone >through for centuries. > > Does social climbing
have anything to do with whether you go to an office >or work at home?
> Is social climbing a bad thing? Every cell of society comes with a
>hierarchy of some kind. I'm climbing best I can. Everybody does it,
it's >natural, isn't it? I see 'social climbing' as a ritual that has
everything to do with the environment in which one measures his or her
place in the 'climb'. So if the environment changes, the measures for determining
position will also change. In a society dependent on telecommunicating,
there is no center from which to measure your position in relation to all
others, just like the Internet has no central headquarters which would
designate the 'top'. Maybe we are climbing creatures by nature, but the
ritual in place in corporate culture to define the measures of climbing
will change. Art can suggest and/or reflect the changes. > What actual
percentage of the actual workforce will be actually be able >to telecommunicate
. . . actually? The highest percentage possible, I hope. Nelson Thall,
research director of the McLuhan Center for Media Sciences, quoted this
month in Rolling Stone magazine, says, "In the U.S. at the turn of
this century, we were able to turn people into part of the machine through
specialization and fragmentation of effort: the assembly line. Now that
same process is in reverse under electronic conditions. Today you don't
have to break a car into a bunch of tasks, a bunch of *jobs* - you need
one person with a computer. People - jobs - are being replaced by computers,
in effect ... There's no need to fragment anymore, so you no longer have
jobs - you have roles. We all have to have roles." The article goes
on to advise university students to prepare for roles in telecommunicating.
> Will they like it, or is it also pleasant to work with others, in
rooms >and buildings, cities? > Telecommunicating as your *role*
in the workforce does have the disadvantage of isolating you for the better
part of the day in your own little cubby hole at home. However, it also
means that when you set out to socialize, it's not primarily work-related,
it's to socialize as a recreational activity. Again, the environment -
and the motivation - for socializing changes. I don't think it's better
or worse, it's just a change. I'm excited about the role art can play in
suggesting/reflecting all these changes. I'll be the first to admit, Ed,
that I'm a dreamer at heart. T.L. Kelly http://www.teleport.com/~room101/wench.htm
=========================================================================
Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:06:45 -0500 Jan B. Chase On March 4, Aimee Galetto wrote,
>>>Because of the influences of Television programs and video
games a child does not sit down and create for themselves.<<<
I agree wholeheartedly, and would like to add a comment relating to the
insidiously passive nature of television. Through many observations collected
during my teaching experiences, I have decided that there is a definite
correlation between the attention span of children and the average amount
of time between commercials on television. Over the years, as the time
between commercials has decreased, so has the amount of time that a "normal"
child can stay focused on one activity. And, as attention spans have decreased,
so has the ability of children to communicate effectively. In the lower
grades, more and more schools are addressing the shortening attention span
issue through use of a "quick fix:" the design of shorter and
shorter learning sessions. These sessions, in turn, provide fewer and fewer
opportunities for children to actively communicate. In the long run this
"quick fix" will only exacerbate our problem, because it does
not identify or deal with its cause. We are now, in effect, training our
young people to focus on learning for only very short periods of time (-what
is the average, now: twelve minutes between commercials??). To be able
to focus continuously is an all-important first step in the act of creation.
In turn, the act of creating helps one to increase one's attention span.
The snare of commercial television is twofold: it robs our children of
their need (and thus of their ability) to create and to communicate, and
at the same time it also lowers their attention span and their ability
to focus on learning. Ed Atkeson was so right when he commented (March
5) that >>>the people watching the television are really the product.<<<
Perhaps all this explains our societal craving for interactive media and
hands-on activities. In these, WE are in control of our own attention spans,
and (-how unusual!-) we are even encouraged to use our minds and to communicate
with each other. If the amazing power of the Internet is utilized correctly,
it can be a tool for interactive globe-spanning events beyond imagining.
These activities cannot replace the all-important artist-audience relationship,
but they can be a viable alternative means of communication with people
we might otherwise never meet. Within our lifetimes, the advent of sophisticated
audio and video products for the computer will provide opportunities for
actors and musicians around the world to perform "together" in
real time ... for artists to demonstrate and describe their techniques,
and mentor others as they try them... for philosophers from many nations
to meet "face-to-face" and discuss the common problems of humanity...
for children from a variety of cultures to see and hear each other, and
learn that the things that bind us together are every bit as important
as the things which make us different. Television is anathema because it
creates passive, uncommunicative, non-creative and unfocused individuals.
However, the medium of the Internet is rapidly outdating television- and
none too soon. Now, it is up to us to use this creative new tool in a positive,
productive and beneficial manner. =========================================================================
Horoscopic Expressionism
Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:29:26 -0800 Roger L. Satterlee Hi Danilo, I'm Roger,
I live in Elmira, NY, and I am always interested in psychology, art, and
literature, Unfortunately, perhaps, my sole interest in all such things
is my love of psychological astrology. I have kept quiet rather than make
a spectacle of myself, I had hoped to learn what others my have to say
here before I alienate half of your mail list with my repeated emphasis
on a topic too esoteric for common conversation. Any way, I am interested
in how people creatively express themselves; the way thoughts are patterned
and presented. These can be translated to the symbols of astrology and
this serves as a test for a least two important things. First the validity
of the author's selfexpression--how closely does it match the patterns
of the birth chart of astrology, and secondly what does the organization
of the expression imply in terms only astrology can supply in such an individual
(perhaps more objective) way. In other words, I think the unique nature
of the alchemy in astrology provide a means to extract the unconscious
'context' of the artists proffered 'content'---the most individual 'meaning'
of an artists words and images. I've no urge to trouble anyone who has
no experience of astrology, so I was politely waiting for any mention of
the modern way astrological symbolism is being applied to a Jungian styled
discussion of art as "self" expression. The alchemy of anything
is grist for my mill...but, unlike you Danilo, I am used to talking to
myself. I have only found two people in the last 12 months who have any
idea what to say once I begin explaining such things. So, I have adopted
the playful name, Pedantus Pontificus, based on the word, pedantic, to
remind myself not to bore people. :^D Oh, BTW, I've yet to say anything
worth while in only 100 lines...I write to another mailist, psych@astrologer.com.
, and there I do my best to keep it down to 300 -400 lines. What I like
to describe just takes a lot of space. My first post here was too long;
it bounced..oops. :^) Best wishes, Rog =========================================================================
Hello! (A new subscriber)
Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:24:17 -0800 Sara Deutsch Dear Danilo: Thanks for
your welcome message. This is my first time subscribing and adding a message
to a list. Exciting and a little scary! I am a multi-media artist, psychotherapist
and college teacher who uses writing, dream work painting, collage, toning
and free improvisational music, as doorways to our infinite unknown self,
for healing and transformation. I live in California, in the bay area,
in West Marin. My life journey has led me into many worlds. I have trekked
alone in the Himalayas for l8 months and lived naked in virgin jungles
of Hawaiian Islands, eating only fruit and wild vegetables (my hippie period).
I have spent years in a contemplative order. I am a music-maker (electric
cello, keyboards and original instruments), artist (collage, cyberart,
silk painting) and a dreamer who longs to bring new forms and paradigms
down to earth through creative collaboration with kindred spirits. I am
currently writing a dissertation on "SHARED CREATION--THE ART OF COLLABORATION"
, exploring how collaborative art processes, except for toning, performed
in silence, allow us to experience vulnerability, letting go of judgment
and boundaries, learning to trust and inclusion. They take us out of our
habitual reality into a shared space of pure possibility where we directly
experience the higher creativity of the collective mind. As we create together
we naturally absorb the wisdom and skills of others and learn to appreciate
our own unique gifts and role in the group. How do I make this into a dissertation??
This is the question I would like suggestions and feedback on. I want to
preserve the "juice" of my work of 12 years without sterilizing
and killing it. This is the interest that made me subscribe to this list.
I am interested in exchanging innovative art/healing techniques and sharing
material from a book I am completing THE MAGIC MIRROR--CREATING MANDALAS
FOR INSIGHT, HEALING and FUN. This book is an inner reflection of my life's
journey through a series of collage mandalas and describes how to create
mandalas in many modalities--inkblots, rubber stamps, food, sound, cyberart
and collaborative rituals. Many years ago I discovered the power of my
own recorded voices to lift me out of depression. I developed a way to
create a chorus of my own wise, loving and powerful voices to inspire me
when I most needed a transfusion of my own positive energy. Now, with a
simple but deep focusing process, a multi-track tape recorder, sampling,
keyboard, sound processor, I help clients identify and recreate their own
empowering voices, sounds and words and record them on a multi-track, loop
tape. I hope these interests are appropriate to your group and am eagerly
anticipating a chance to communicate with those on a similar wavelength
Thanks, Sara Deutsch =========================================================================
Welcome message
Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:49:49 EST Paul Koeniger Dear Danilo, Dear Everyone,
Thank you for your invitation and reminder to introduce myself to the list.
I live in Munich, Germany and work in the computer business. My relation
to art is only on the receiving side, except for one thing: I am actively
pursuing a topic that I call information structure , and I really do not
know where it belongs to. It might be computer science, it might be linguistics,
cognitive psychology or art. My research into this area started with the
observation of a simple paradox: We all hear often, in one form or another,
two complaints that contradict each other directly: - We don t have enough
information. - Too much information is thrown at us. Now I think that the
problem here is not the amount of information we face, but, rather, the
lack of structure. To be more precise: the inadequacy of the coping procedures
and structuring methods for information we learned when growing up. If
you are interested in the topic, please look up my website at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pako
There you can download a few articles I published on the topic and a PowerPoint
slide show to illustrate it. Please do not expect too much, I am NOT a
professional researcher (although I have degrees in Linguistics and English).
Now about the questions you asked in your welcome messages: My main interest
in subscribing to ARCO was curiosity. It just liked the way it was advertized
in the SCOUT report. I think it is good practice to read mailings lists
for a while before sending messages. So I think you expect too much that
everybody should present himself after a few days. I found the messages
so far stimulating, so I have decided to stay subscribed. Yes, I think
it is a great idea to exchange thoughts via the Internet. My experience
is, that electronic communication usually is a good _supplement_ to personal
communication. But the anonymity of mailing list, and their extremely wide
range make them a medium in their own right. RULES: Yes, we need them!
I do not agree with liberationists who want everything without regulations.
Let us give ourselves some clear, practical codes that we observe on a
voluntary basis. E.g.: respect the person you write to, even if you disagree.
Write only if you have something to say. Stay with the topic or start a
new thread. Answer requests. Try to use lists and other Internet resources
in the way they are meant to. With regards, from Munich, Germany Paul Koeniger
=========================================================================
introducing myself & a question
Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:19:33 -0800 Declan & wenchpoet Hi. My name is
Terri L. Kelly and I'm new to the list. I've been reading posts for a few
weeks now, along with those from a variety of other lists. Today, I weeded
out the lists that don't interest me much, and of those that I decided
to keep, ARCO is one. I am interested in how artists and psychologists
(or students of each or both) use technology to inform each other of ideas
that reflect themes in both disciplines. I am interested in observing the
processing of ideas that travel across genres. I taught renga, a collaborative
poetry form, for many years and learned from that experience that ideas
are like facets of a diamond with an infinite number of facets....if that
sounds like zen, that's probably because renga is rooted in zen history.
I live in the Pacific Northwest where I write for various literary journals
and also teach behaviorally disordered adolescents social skills and computer
literacy. I will graduate with honors from Linfield College in May, with
a B.S. in social & behavioral sciences. I plan to start graduate school
in the fall, probably studying either social work or social psychology.
Previously, I spent several years as an award-winning investigative journalist.
I am a published author of fiction, nonfiction, essays and poetry. My published
and unpublished literary works can be found at my web site: http://www.teleport.com/~room101/wench.htm
I am the former editor of Lynx, an international journal of renga, and
the current editor of Sauce*Box Journal of Literary Erotica, which can
be found on the web. I propose that we begin a discussion of how we will
come to define in a cultural and historical context, across the arts and
as it impacts the field of psychology, the terms "decency" and
"indecency". So far, the discussions and debates in other forums
and lists have been mostly political in nature. How do we view this complex
measure from a psychological and/or artistic stance? T.L. Kelly =========================================================================
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:55:11 -0500 Denman F. Maroney On Mar 04, 1996 13:19:33,
'Declan & wenchpoet ' wrote: >I propose that
we begin a discussion of how we will come to define in a >cultural and
historical context, across the arts and as it impacts the field of >psychology,
the terms "decency" and "indecency". So far, the discussions
and >debates in other forums and lists have been mostly political in
nature. How do >we view this complex measure from a psychological and/or
artistic stance? It seems to me that the terms decency and indecency engender
political debates because they pertain to morality, which is political,
not psychological or artistic, in nature. -- Denman Maroney =========================================================================
between two worlds
reading Kandinsky's (and Marc's) "The Blue Rider" (again)
Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:16:55 -0100 Danilo Curci What is the quality of
the DIFFERENCE between an artist and anyone else ? Today I was thinking
that the normality or anormality of the artist is perhaps a SECONDARY question:
the FIRST one is, may be, that in our times an individual, if he wants
to LIVE an artistic dimension, has to win many forces, since the artistic
or conteplative dimension is completely THE OTHER WORLD. To enter in it,
we have (this is MY experience) to LEAVE SEDUCTIONS of the DAILY LIFE.
THIS is PAINFUL (HARD). And. also, from that other world, he (she) has
to COME BACK, up or down in THIS daily world: and SEDUCTIONS OF THE ARTISTIC/CONTEMPLATIVE
WORLD are also stronger! THIS is PAINFUL, TOO (HARD). Perhaps a man or
a woman with a less (more?) than NORMAL life has to afford the second kind
of pain; less the first: he/she HAS AN OPEN DOOR to enter his/her other
world (not necessarily to get off) So, is it possible that many dualistic
expressions (realism/naturalism, popular/elitist, old (renaissance or not)
/ new (age ?) art ) can be seen under this other dualism: another kind
of civilization/religion/culture can/could let an easier passage from the
daily and the contemplative world, and a shared one. Today, in our civilization,
art is IMPOSSIBLE to be shared between the two worlds (not in theory: think
how much MYSTERY is in our technology, we USE with less attention, most
of times, than an ancient artisan his hammer...) End of my... creative
moment! P.S. The reference to Kandinsky & Marc is not casual: I'd like
that our actual and future web site could be in some way a new age for
the multi-media project of The Blue Rider. Danilo =========================================================================
Sun, 3 Mar 1996 17:20:20 EST STEVEN E. SLAP Danilo describes the emotional
schism that an artist in today's world faces when moving between the contemplative
world of art and the workaday world: "in our times an individual,if
he wants to LIVE an artistic dimension, has to win many forces, since the
artistic or contemplative dimension is completely THE OTHER WORLD. To enter
in it, we have (this is MY experience) to LEAVE SEDUCTIONS of the DAILY
LIFE. THIS is PAINFUL (HARD). And. also, from that other world, he (she)
has to COME BACK, up or down in THIS daily world: and SEDUCTIONS OF THE
ARTISTIC/CONTEMPLATIVE WORLD are also stronger!" I think this is very
true, and has real implications for those of us who want to *do* art without
having to make a living at it. The dual temptations that Danilo cites are
always there. After a hard day at the office, the temptation of a night
in front of the TV with a Samuel Adams, or a newspaper/magazine with a
fine claret, is awfully tempting in comparison to a night in front of a
blank page, or screen or canvas. On the other hand, once engrossed in the
work of art (once having successfully *crossed* into the other world),
the temptation is to stay there and work all night...ignoring the fact
that one may have to be at work at 7:00am. These transitions are indeed
"PAINFUL"...I'd have said "WRENCHING". Steven Slap
=========================================================================
Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:21:04 -0600 annadora khan Danilo, I'm not sure I agree
with you. I think I would like to start here "why is it always necessary
for artists to stand apart" Not that I consider anything to be particularly
"NORMAL" but why "must" that artist enter another world.
After about 20 years I'm reading Jorge Luis Borges' "Labyrinth"
again and to me he writes about this other reality. I mean does one not
only have to create this "other world" but also live in it, or
is it when you are creating this other world that one gets so involved
with ones work that one moves into another world and than has difficulty
leaving it. Usually when I forward copies of the message sent with mine
it makes the message too long, so I hope this goes through without my having
to edit what was said. =========================================================================
Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:45:40 -0500 Ed Atkeson DC>>>> What is the
quality of the DIFFERENCE between an artist and anyone else ? > Today
I was thinking that the normality or anormality of the artist is > perhaps
a SECONDARY question: the FIRST one is, may be, that in our times an >
individual, > if he wants to LIVE an artistic dimension, has to win
many forces, since the > artistic or conteplative dimension is completely
THE OTHER WORLD. > To enter in it, we have (this is MY experience) to
LEAVE SEDUCTIONS of the > DAILY LIFE. > > THIS is PAINFUL (HARD).
> > And. also, from that other world, he (she) has to COME BACK,
up or down in THIS > daily world: and SEDUCTIONS OF THE ARTISTIC/CONTEMPLATIVE
WORLD are also > stronger! > THIS is PAINFUL, TOO (HARD). AK>>>
I think I would like to start here "why is it always necessary for
artists to stand apart" Not that I consider anything to be particularly
"NORMAL" but why "must" that artist enter another world.
I think of art as something that you do, it has a tradition, it is a thing
to do, a choice, a recognized and documented human activity. No big deal,
really. Art is clearly existing strongly for me, I know the thrill, cultural/chemical.
Getting it, giving it, making it, finding it--those endorphins fire. Feels
good. We should indulge ourselves. For the artist the working, the feeling,
is constant--it's only the glamour that comes and goes. (How can I write
this?. . . going through life like I do so weird and alienated? Maybe this
is what I try to keep telling myself to keep myself going. I've spent my
life developing sensitivity to something noone gives a shit about.) The
artist is someone standing on the corner singing. The singer makes this
expression, her actual self, voice, body, skin, hair, she is there, she
has it in her, she's coming out with it, and who knows perhaps there is
someone to hear. The artist is standing apart only because no one else
is on the corner singing. Most are crossing the street to avoid the disgraceful
spectacle. best, Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:44:51 -0600 annadora khan > someone to hear. The
artist is standing apart only because no one else is on > the corner
singing. Most are crossing the street to avoid the disgraceful > spectacle.
> best, Ed Atkeson > Great Ed, I really like the ending. By the way
it's not that I don't understand but for the sake of argument having spent
years in the past as a bohemian I like to talk from the other side a bit.
ann =========================================================================
hi Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:21:04
-0600 Miroslava Silva Ordaz Hi everyone: Well as you can see my name is
Miroslava Silva Ordaz, I'm 18 years old. I'm from Mexico, I live in Queretaro
City it's the capital of the sate. I've just started my first semester
of Psychology at the State University. I'm quite new using internet, but
I've realized the importance of this media to communicate with people from
all around the world, to get to know the different living styles and the
way they see the world. That's mainly the reason why I decided to enter
this group. Another reason is that some friends and I are working on a
proyect about how different medias conceive the psychology concept and
since this is the media where we belive it is more feasible to reach people
from all around the world, we considered it the best option to work this
proyect on. So I would appreciate if you have the chance to write to my
adrress and express what is your particular conception of pshycology and
why do you see it that way. I think it's going to be a great experience
to be in this group and I hope I can get the most out of it and learn from
you all. See you. P.S. I'll be expecting your answers Write soon! =========================================================================
Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:44:58 -0500 Ed Atkeson MSO>>> Well as you
can see my name is Miroslava Silva Ordaz, I'm 18 years old. I'm from Mexico,
I live in Queretaro City it's the capital of the sate. Another reason is
that some friends and I are working on a proyect about how different medias
conceive the psychology concept and since this is the media where we belive
it is more feasible to reach people from all around the world, we considered
it the best option to work this proyect on. So I would appreciate if you
have the chance to write to my adrress and express what is your particular
conception of pshycology and why do you see it that way. Hi Miroslava!
Welcome to the list. This is a quiet neighborhood, but relaxed. No problems
getting run down or shot at. These lists seem to be like neighborhoods.
Sometimes they are polite and suburban, sometimes rowdy and noisy with
a lot of screaming in the street and people hanging out the windows laughing
and insulting each other. Sometimes a list is academic and snobbish, everyone
snubbing you if you haven't read the books. I don't know much about psychology,
but all the usual stuff is here, ego, insecurity, rivalry. Different though,
because of the limitations of this type-talking. Dynamics of human interaction
are magnified since everything "takes place" in front of a crowd.
There's a lot of misunderstanding in one way, since the net lacks the luxuriant
and expressive timbre of the human voice. In another way though, things
get nailed down very precisely because it is in writing after all, like
law. Different, and very interesting I think. Best, Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:54:45 -0500 Frederick F Meli Subject: Re: hi In-Reply-To:
<01I1FSR3VF0200516H@rfd.oit.umass.edu> My nane is Federico Meli,
I am a graduate student in Art History at UMASS I am also a sculptor and
painter. I did my undergraduate work in fine arts at the Rhode Island School
of Design. My interests are ancient and medieval studies. I am presently
working on theories concerning the nature of cycical time and transformation
as depicted in the capital sculptures in Verdanaesque cathedrals, of southern
France. I am also interesred in the current methodology in art historical
scholarship; as it can be applied to the nature of the artists themselves,
and the reaction of the ruling body of art historians in general. One of
the most interesting aspects of my work at UMASS is the number of studio
trained people in the art history program. We are concerned with the new
wave of literary theory based research, and scholarship, that tends to
dismiss the role creator in the creation, ie: removing the artist from
the process. You don't understand, I coulda had class. I coulda been a
contenda Ciao Federico =========================================================================
Art therapy
Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:42:59 -0100 Danilo Curci I forwarded to the list
two messages about Art therapy (one was cutted for space): >From: Petrea
Hansen >Subject: G-P: G-P Art Therapy Conference Announcement
>Sender: owner-group-psychotherapy@freud.apa.org > > >----CONFERENCE
ANNOUNCEMENT--- CALL FOR PAPERS-------- > >The Canadian Art Therapy
Association will be holding their 17th Annual >Conference: >---------VISION
AND VOICE: Art Therapy for People With Special Needs---------- > >featuring
keynote speaker Debra Linesch, Ph.D. A.T.R., > >September 27 - September
29, 1996, >Harbourfront Centre, Toronto, Canada. > > >CALL
FOR ABSTRACTS:(Submission Deadline: April 1st, 1996) > >C.A.T.A.
is requesting the submission of abstracts of approximately 250 >words,
to include the presentation of papers and workshops on the use of art >therapy
in working with special needs populations. There is interest in >presentations
on aspects of Art Therapy with clients from a wide range of >special
needs. Examples of potential topics may include: developmental >and/or
physical challenges, sexual abuse, eating disorders, HIV/AIDS, mental >health
issues, geriatric populations, child witnesses to violence, etc., or >perhaps
your area of specialty is working with a special needs population >that
has not been listed here. > >It should be noted that experientially
based workshops must also contain a >didactic component. The Conference
Program Committee is requesting a >detailed description of the experiential
component of any workshop for >approval. > >As well as Art Therapists,
participants from a variety of other disciplines >within Mental Health,
Social Work, and Education are also welcome to submit >abstracts for
consideration. The focus of all workshops, however, is to be >the topic
of Art Therapy within these disciplines. > >Please note, presenters
will NOT have to pay a registration fee for the >conference. Students
are also invited to participate in this call for >submissions. >
>DEADLINE: Please send all abstacts, experiential workshop details,
and >presenter's curriculum vitae by April 1st, 1996 to: > >CATA
Conference Program Committee > c/o 2542 Wickham Road > Mississauga,
Ontario > Canada, L5M 5L3 > >Information may also be faxed to
(905) 542-7199 >E-MAIL phansen@io.org > >Petrea Hansen B.A. Dipl.
A.T. >Art Therapist >CATA Professional Development Co-ordinator >phansen@io.org
> >NEW!: >Art Therapy in Canada WWW page >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Sender: owner-psycho-analysis@netcom.com >Reply-To: psycho-analysis@netcom.com
> >CENTRE FOR PSYCHOTHERAPEUTIC STUDIES >UNIVERSITY OF SHEFFIELD
> >RESIDENTIAL AND DISTANCE LEARNING PROGRAMMES > >The Centre
for Psychotherapeutic Studies of the University of Sheffield is >the
largest and most multi-disciplinary institution of its kind. Bringing >together
clinical work and applied approaches with scholarly and empirical >research,
it is probably unique in providing in a single setting such a >wide
variety of approaches and disciplines concerned with the understanding
>and alleviation of mental distress. (I cutted here, and in other points,
since the message was too long. Danilo) >ART AND PSYCHOTHERAPY (with
eligibility for British Academy scholarships). > >ARTS & MEDIA
>Members of staff frequently have an input to local radio and TV including
>chat shows and phone-ins as a mark of their commitment to the local
>community and to the dissemination of knowledge and information with
regard >to mental health. Part of the Centre's philosophy is not only
to identify >and adumbrate the social responses to mental health, but
also to try to >engage the wider public with the hope of changing people's
perceptions of >marginalised social groups including those labelled
as mentally ill or >disabled. To this end, the Centre has hosted conferences
and exhibition >including the visual arts as well as projects involving
the performing arts >and media. For example, the Centre has produced
an arts festival 'Out of >Sight, Out of Mind' involving a brand new
play at the Crucible Theatre, a >book launch, an exhibition of pictures
from the Bethlem Royal Hospital >Collection at the Mappin Art Gallery,
a piano recital, film season and >lecture programme. > >STAFF
>Director: Dr Tim Kendall, MRCPsych (t..j.kendall@sheffield.ac.uk) >Professor
of Psychotherapy: Dr Digby Tantam, FRCPsych >(d.tantum@sheffielda.c.uk)
>Professor of Psychotherapy and Psychoanalytic Studies: > Dr Robert
M. Young (r.m.young@sheffield.ac.uk) > >Lecturers in Art Therapy:
Ms Chris Wood, Ms Therese Richardson, Mr David >Edwards, Mr Patrick
Loftus, Mr John Henzell, Mr David Maclagan >Lecturers in Art and Psychotherapy:
Mr David Maclagan, Mr John Henzell > >There are brochures and detailed
expositions of each of the above programmes. >For further information
please contact >Judith Taylor (j.m.taylor@sheffield.ac.uk) >Centre
for Psychotherapeutic Studies >University of Sheffield >16 Claremont
Crescent >Sheffield S10 2TA >Tel: 0114 282 4970/1/2 Fax: 0114 270
0619 >Further information about staff, including vitas and publications
are on >the web at http://www.shef.ac.uk/~psysc/ >__________________________________________
>| Robert Maxwell Young: robert@rmy1.demon.co.uk >| 26 Freegrove
Rd., London N7 9RQ, England >| tel. +44 171 607 8306 fax. +44 171 609
4837 >| Professor of Psychotherapy and Psychoanalytic Studies, >|
Centre for Psychotherapeutic Studies, University of Sheffield >| Home
page and writings: http://www.shef.ac.uk/~psysc/ > 'One must imagine
Sisyphus happy.' - Camus ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find links on art therapy from the ARCO Home Page in the Virtual
University ----> Psychology. This is a topic of our list! Anybody of
you would like to write about his/her experience and opinions about? You
can specify if you write for publishing on THE BLUE ARCHER or just to the
list. Ciao / Hello to all of you. Danilo =========================================================================
your invitation to describe myself
Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:25:40 -0500 John P McLaughlin Thanks for your invitation
to describe myself to the group. I am an experimental psychologist, whose
research has sought to reveal noncultural influences on our responses to
art. Some features of the right hemisphere of the brain, for example, may
affect what it is that we like. My address and vital numbers are: John
P. McLaughlin I have no immediate suggestions for topics. I would like
to see what the group is already involved with. I think that the Internet
affords wonderful opportunities for discussion. As a matter of fact, some
of you might be interested in the International Association for Empirical
Aesthetics, a group that meets periodically to discuss research and theory
(the next meetings are in Prague, August 1-4, 1996). Dean McKenzie maintains
a mailing list (DEANM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au) and Colin Martindale is the
current president (RPY383@maine.maine.edu). =========================================================================
... eight hundred forty-three pictures posted
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:44:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Arco/Art &
Literature, Psychology and Communication" Sender:
"Arco/Art & Literature, Psychology and Communication" From:
{ brad brace } Subject: ... eight hundred forty-three
pictures posted The 12-hour-ISBN-JPEG Project --------------- BEGAN JANUARY
1, 1995 Classic HyperModern Photos... posted/mailed every 12 hours... perfect
trans-avant-garde art for the 90`s! A continuous, apparently random sequence
of original photos... authentic gritty, greyscale... corrupt and compelling
experience. An extension of the printed ISBN-Book series... critically
acclaimed... imagery is gradually acquired, selected and re-sequenced over
time... [ see ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace/books ] >> Promulgated,
de-centered, ambiguous, homogeneous, de-composed... >> Multi-faceted,
excentric, oblique, obsessive, obscure, opaque... Every 12 hours, another!...
view them, re-post `em, save `em, trade `em, print `em, even publish them...
Here`s how: ~ Set www-links to -> http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.htm
Look for the 12-hr-icon. Heavy traffic may require you to specify files
more than once! Anarchie, Fetch, TurboGopher... Or -> ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace/bbrace.htm
~ Download from -> ftp.pacifier.com /pub/users/bbrace Download from
-> ftp.netcom.com /pub/bb/bbrace Download from -> ftp.teleport.com
/users/bbrace * Remember to set tenex or binary. Get 12hr.jpeg ~ E-mail
-> If you only have access to email, then you can use FTPmail to do
essentially the same thing. Send a message with a body of 'help' to the
server address nearest you: * ftp-request@netcom.com ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com
ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu ftpmail@cs.uow.edu.au ftpmail@ftp.uni-stuttgart.de
ftpmail@grasp.insa-lyon.fr ftpmail@src.doc.ic.ac.uk * bitftp@pucc.bitnet
bitftp@plearn.bitnet bitftp@dearn.bitnet -> www by email: agora@mail.w3.org
/body: www ~ Mirror-sites requested! Archives too! The latest new jpeg
will always be named, 12hr.jpeg * Perl program to mirror ftp-sites/sub-directories:
src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/packages/mirror * ~ Postings to usenet groups: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr
alt.binaries.pictures.misc alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.misc ~ This interminable,
relentless sequence of imagery began in earnest on January 1, 1995. The
basic structure of the project has been over twenty years in the making.
While the specific sequence of photographs has been presently orchestrated
for more than 7 years` worth of 12-hour postings, I will undoubtedly be
tempted to tweak the ongoing publication with additional new interjected
imagery. Each 12-hour posting is like the turning of a page; providing
ample time for reflection, interruption, and assimilation. ~ A very low-volume,
moderated mailing list for announcements and occasional commentary related
to this project has been established. Send e-mail to: listserv@netcom.com
/subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg -- This project has been largely funded in advance.
Some opportunities still exist for financially assisting the publication
of a CD-ROM archive of all the 12hr-ISBN-JPEG imagery. Other supporters
receive rare copies of the first three web-offset printed ISBN-Books. --
(c) No copyright 1995,1996 =========================================================================
Introduction - Art Mind
Mon, 26 Feb 1996 20:16:00 -0500 Marilyn Gordley Answer to questions
as listed February 24, 1996 1. Active in the visual arts: exhibiting painter;
visual art theory; visual art education; visual art and the humanities;
art in general. 2. USA; presently living in Pennsylvania, 30 minutes from
Philly; taught 20 years at a university in North Carolina; originally from
St.Louis, Missouri; associations in Illinois, Ohio, Oklahoma, Iowa, Wisconsin.
I completed classroom research for the next step: outputting products of
my art mind, painting, visual art concepts, the invention of an art language
accessing everyone s art mind, and documentation of this work. I happened
on ARCO during a search for information what is happening in art, new concepts
in art, art theory in education. There are few sources, this is interesting
in itself; when teaching art I found gimmicks available but not realized
theory or concepts. The Art Mind, my manuscript in progress, is my answer
to subjects as the ten posted questions on the Arco home page. An exhibiting
painter, draftsperson, I work primarily in acrylics, general drawing medium,
monotype and woodcut. Many years working on The Art Mind, art theory, visual
hypothesis and visual language; the last two and one-half on the visual
characters (computer designed), linear and visual vocabulary and semantic
structure; computer orientated graphics for teaching art concepts and visual
theory. My attentions, to complete the first draft this year. I am not
sure my purpose is in sync with ARCO s, however, I am interested in experiencing
the thoughts and attitudes of those interested in art theory and art-making.
It seems logical to access the Internet for this purpose. 3. Questions
2, 4, 5, and 9; currently, my interest is the comments of others. I believe
art education focuses on myth of product making rather than an increase
in and evolution of intelligence. An individual s awareness of the subliminal
self and of one spersonhood leads to conscious perceptions. For instance,
consider the statement, art is 95% perspiration and 5% inspiration; the
purpose of art as expression is a jokewhen creativity is a natural function
of the human mind. I will observe for a time before proposing a category.
4. As an idealist I envision a communication between minds that brings
forth new awareness. If this is the case, think of the time it saves by
eliminating travel and locating a subject of interest . The elimination
of political self-interest, body-association, and mannerism in a format
where ideas stripped of excess verbiage and the revelation of the concept,
the thought is the thing, an attractive expectation. Also one may become
aware of their prejudices and logical errors when read rather than spoken.
I have no experience with a mail list but have heard some unfortunate comments:
emotional outpouring, illogical and slanted mis-communications, and insulting
behavior (is this flaming)?. My expectation is politeness to and from everyone.
5. I revert to the artist s comment, few or no rules; on the other hand
lack of responsibility is a major problem in our society. =========================================================================
Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:17:16 -0500 Ed Atkeson MG>>> I happened on
ARCO during a search for information what is happening in art, new concepts
in art, art theory in education. There are few sources, this is interesting
in itself; when teaching art I found gimmicks available but not realized
theory or concepts. The Art Mind, my manuscript in progress, is my answer
to subjects as the ten posted questions on the Arco home page. Welcome--I
say from the darkness. A few souls are wandering around here, like in Shaw's
heaven. The chance that a few will meet with something to talk about at
the same coordinate and time seems frightfully slim. I'm here with the
frustration of one who has just said his piece with all his heart and heard
the sound of his voice fade away just as you stroll up. Your Art Mind project
sounds interesting. =========================================================================
Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:45:07 -0500 Ed Atkeson Marilyn Gordley>>> Several
thoughts arose when I read statement: 1. In essence this sounds familiar.
2. As a faculty member one usually responds to support colleagues and reassure
the student, 3. The student is an intelligent person viewing serious problems
in art education and who wants answers to valid questions. As you know
from my statement I believe new insights and methodology is important to
the survival and advancement of art education. I thought of students confronting
the problem of art convention vs. the creativity myth. Therefore, my answer
was a thinking out loud' response, Ed, I recognize the problem and am trying
to solve it. I get the connection now. But Marilyn, there you go again,
looking for "the solution." Isn't "the problem" complexity
itself? The code rewrites itself hourly. It's being transmitted over synchronous
frequency shifting devices. Any given moment's "problem" seems
impossible to understand in any given lifetime. How can you talk of solving
it? I guess what I am basically saying to the student is . . . you're in
the caterpillar stage, take it in. Pay attention wherever you are. In class
or not. Art school is just another situation, pay attention. Take it in.
Take it in that some people are saying that the "creative myth"
should be analyzed and nailed down, and that some others are saying, "just
throw the paint." Take it all in. If you find a vein, take the opportunity
and mine it, whatever the ore. There's enough room in them warehouses--it's
only a semester, right? With reference to MG's third point-- serious problems
in art education, ok, but my advice would be to learn about art, not about
artschool. Try to get through to the heart of the matter. And be advised
of point no. 2. : ) =========================================================================
Introduction
Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:16:17 -0400 Jeffrey Weidman 2/27/96 I, Jeffrey
Weidman, am the Art Librarian of Oberlin College; I've been in that position
since 1983. I have an M.L.S. and an M.A. and Ph.D. in art history (at Indiana
U., Bloomington). I did my dissertation on the 19th century American artist
William Rimmer. I saw the list on the latest Scout Report, and it looked
interesting. I shared it with the Art Dept. faculty and Art Museum staff
at Oberlin, so there may some of those folks joining. I've published a
number of things on Rimmer and curated a show on him in the mid-1980s (Brockton
Art Museum, Cleveland Museum of Art, Brooklyn Museum) and did most of the
exhib. catalog. Now most of my scholarly work is devoted to writing an
occasional authentication essay on new Rimmer works for dealers or collectors,
and doing a lot of book reviewing. As art librarian, I teach a 3-credit,
full-semester Art Dept. course each fall, "Library Research Methods
and Resources in the Visual Arts," and a related one day course on
"Researching Your Art Object." My particular interests are in
philosophy and religion, broadly defined, with a particular interest in
the works of Paul Brunton and Anthony Damiani. The list seemed interesting,
so I joined. That's about it. Jeff =========================================================================
Introduction Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:44:22 -0500 Denman
F. Maroney On Feb 25, 1996 21:36:20, Danilo Curci wrote: >1. ARCO would
like to be (or become) a multi and trans-cultural list, to which >are
invited to participate people that do and/or like arts (in all its >expressions),
literature, psychology, (science of) communication. >Which is the main
interest that made you subscribe this list ? I write music and play piano.
I have a job in advertising to understand and write about new developments
in communications technology and media generally. >2. Where are you
from: country, town, language, culture, experiences... ? country USA, town
Monsey NY, language English and a little French, culture American >3.
Wich topics are you more interested on, among them proposed in the >
message ? Or: would you propose one or more new topics? I haven't read
it closely. >4. What do you think about communicating between people
about topics >of ARCO list using the medium of Internet and of a mailing-list?
Every list is different. I hope we'll have a high level of discourse. >5.
Which do you think we should explicitely or implicitely accept >to
improve the communication avoiding too much flaming ? Let's be civil. --
Denman Maroney =========================================================================
greetings!
Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:40:22 -0500 Jan B. Chase Hello, everyone. I'm brand-new
to this list, and am excited about being here. From the moment I read the
description of the list as a multi-cultural discussion of the importance
of art as it relates to literature, psychology & communication, I knew
I would be "hooked." -So, here I am! I'm an American (raised
in a New England prep school environment, but now- after much wandering
around North America.- living in the Florida panhandle). For several years
during my childhood, I lived with my family in England and France; I received
my Master's degree from a Montreal university; and I visit Central America
fairly regularly- so I (hope I) am not as culturally isolated as I could
be without these exposures to the rest of the globe. I'm an avid reader
on a wide variety of subjects, and thrive on intellectual discussion and
the sharing of ideas. For almost 25 years now, I've had dual careers (which
reflect my dual academic training!); both of these careers are personal
passions. One is in exceptional education, and the other is in the visual
& written arts. Often it has been difficult to make these two facets
of my life coincide. Currently, I'm lucky: my work involves me with children,
communication, and hands-on arts experiences. Each of the questions posed
in the list's Welcome Letter are viable and thought-provoking, and many
are questions I've considered previously at various levels. In addition:
I am extremely interested in theories of creativity, and in how creative
development through use of the arts relates to individual growth and learning.
The Internet is a fantastic new tool to use in communicating with others
around the world about these topics; I believe that ultimately, the Net
will bring human beings together as a species. My concern at the moment,
however, is that as a result of the current explosion in technological
advances, MANY people (particularly those in third-world countries who
have no method or skills for accessing the new technologies) are being
left further and further behind. I believe that this is creating a greater
disparity between "haves" and "have nots" than ever
before. We all need to actively work toward solving this global problem.
As to rules of communication for this list: I'm still a believer in common
courtesy and regard for the feelings of others. It's possible to differ
violently on an intellectual subject and still maintain tact, dignity and
respect... I think if we all keep this objective in mind and attempt to
stay on the topics under disussion, there won't be many difficulties. I'm
looking forward to getting to know all of you, and to some terrific discussions...
this looks like fun!! -Jan. =========================================================================
art and children today
Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:28:13 -0500 Aimee J Galetto Hello everyone! I'm
Aimee Galetto. This is my first day replying to the list. So far I have
found what everone has to say about art in today's society very interesting.
I just thought I'd write a little something on the subject. Art is very
important to teach children today. Fiirst of all helps their imaginations
grow without TV. Because of the influences of Television programs and video
games a child does not sit down and create for themselves. Instead they
base their play on what they see on TV, like with super heroes, etc. Also
a child may spend more time on watching TV and palying computer games,
than on creating on their own. Schools need to teach children the beauty
of art and also teach them that creating, from one's own ideas, not what
they see on TV can be fun and rewarding. I also feel that these hands on
museums and trips to the museums can be informative to children and also
make them appreciate the power of art. =========================================================================
Art in the Net
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:59:32 +-100 Joan Ordinas Fellows, Right now I'm
preparing an exposition about the wide scope of artistic = concepts which
are apearing in the net. I'm searching any kind of URLs to really new experiences
using the net = in a creative way. I'm specially interested in multimedia,
literary and = musical concepts among others. I'm addressing this list
in order to ask for your collaboration in = "linking" me with
any creative proposal that you get to know in the = servers of your organizations
or in any other location. I thank for your interest in advance and I'm
sure that through your = collaboration all the artistic iniciatives developing
in the net will = have its place in the before mencioned exposition. You
can address your answers directly to my E-mail, and besides to the = list
if you consider it convenient. Thanks again. Joan Josep Ordinas Rosa =
Home page: http://www.xtec.es/~jordinas/
| "Comunication is too important to leave it in the specialists' hands
Colegas, me encuentro en estos momento preparando un exposicion sobre las
diversas propuestas de tipo artistico que estan apareciendo en la red.
Estoy buscando todo tipo de URLs a experiencias realmente novedosas y que
usen la red de forma creativa, y ya he encontrado algunas cosas, la mayoria
fuera de nuestro pais. Me interesan las propuestas de tipo multimedia,
literarias, musicales, etc. Me dirijo a la lista para solicitar vuestra
colaboracion, y perdiros me pongais al corriente de cualquier propuesta
de tipo creativo conozcais = en los servidores de vuestras organizaciones
o en cualquier otro lugar. Os agradezco de antemano vuestro interes, y
estoy seguro que gracias a = vuestra colaboraci=F3n podran tener su presencia
en la exposicion todas las = propuestas artisticas que en nuestro pais
se esten desarrollando en la red. Por favor, contestarme a mi direcci=F3n
de correo directamente, aparte = de hacerlo a la lista si lo considerais
conveniente. Gracias. JJOR =========================================================================
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:04:59 -0800 Declan & wenchpoet At 04:59 PM 3/5/96
+-100, you wrote: >I'm searching any kind of URLs to really new experiences
using the net = >in a creative way. I'm specially interested in multimedia,
literary and = >musical concepts among others.---Joan Josep Ordinas
Rosa Joan, look up 'WaxWeb' on your web search engine. It's an interactive
'hyperfiction' project that has been going on for some time. Others I can
think of off the top of my head are 'Raj's Stuff', an experiment in integrating
literature, psychology and mnemonics; and AHA!POETRY which offers several
collaborative forms of interaction. Both are on the web. T.L. Kelly http://www.teleport.com/~room101/wench.htm
=========================================================================
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:50:06 -0500 Ed Atkeson From Joan Ordinas I'm searching
any kind of URLs to really new experiences using the net = in a creative
way. I'm specially interested in multimedia, literary and = musical concepts
among others. >>>The most creative thing/person/phenom I've seen
on the net (I'm not very experienced) is Alan Sondheim on the FOP list.
Writing. Creative writing, but very. Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:57:31 -0500 Jan B. Chase >>>I'm addressing
this list in order to ask for your collaboration in = "linking"
me with any creative proposal that you get to know in the = servers of
your organizations or in any other location.<<< Send e-mail to
Lee Frank at: LeeFrank@aol.com Ask him about the SkyDance arts project
(a multi-media, cross-cultural day-long worldwide celebration of the sky
on the web which is being put together right now). Tell him that I recommended
that you contact him. Good luck with your research. Jan Chase (janbchase@aol.com)
=========================================================================
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:19:40 -0500 Jan B. Chase >>>I'm addressing
this list in order to ask for your collaboration in = "linking"
me with any creative proposal that you get to know in the = servers of
your organizations or in any other location.<<< I'm sorry: I forgot!...
also contact LeeFrank@aol.com about the Naked Poets Society, an ever-expanding
poetry writers' group which has been around for several years and is just
starting up on the Web. -Jan Chase. =========================================================================
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:07:57 -0800 Declan & wenchpoet >The most creative
thing/person/phenom I've seen on the net (I'm not very >experienced)
is Alan Sondheim on the FOP list. Writing. Creative writing, but >very.
> >Ed Atkeson Thanks for that. By searching for Alan Sondheim in
the web, I also found NWHQ, one of the best literary zines I've had the
pleasure to read in a long time. --T.L. Kelly =========================================================================
renga
Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:50:54 -0500 Denman F. Maroney On Mar 04, 1996 13:19:33,
'Declan & wenchpoet' wrote: > I taught renga, a collaborative poetry
form, for many years In that case you might be amused by http://mendel.berkeley.edu/~seidel/Po/poem.html
-- Denman Maroney =========================================================================
decency - Morality & the Arts
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:23:49 -0500 Denman F. Maroney On Mar 04, 1996 13:19:33,
'Declan & wenchpoet wrote: >I propose that we begin a discussion
of how we will come to define in a >cultural and historical context,
across the arts and as it impacts the field of >psychology, the terms
"decency" and "indecency". So far, the discussions
and >debates in other forums and lists have been mostly political in
nature. How do >we view this complex measure from a psychological and/or
artistic stance? It seems to me that the terms decency and indecency engender
political debates because they pertain to morality, which is political,
not psychological or artistic, in nature. -- Denman Maroney =========================================================================
Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:26:49 -0600 Bill Hooper I cannot divorce who am I from
the art I produce, see, hear,etc. Decency is part of my personal value
system and I must be true to my set of values. Not only must I be true
to those values, I must assume moral responsibility for my actions, choices,
creations, etc.. To say the issue of decency or indecency is a politicalissue
is missing the mark. Our public discussions are in the political arena
because humans are political animals. To get the issue back in the psychological
realm we must look to the inner life of the person.Occasionally I have
students who are uneasy when we have nudity in painting. This is an opportunity
to help them explore what they think and feel about their own bodies, why
they think a nude painting is indecent, and whether an art object has the
power to coerce their thinking and feeling. I try to help them learn that
the power of art is the power we give to it. I think some depictions of
nudes are indecent, but they give me opportunity to examine my inner life
and try to discover where this feeling of indecency lies. I think this
is the idea Aristotle had about art being a catharsis. =========================================================================
Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:07:38 -0500 Jan B. Chase re: Denman Maroney's March
5 notation that >>>morality... is political, not psychological
or artistic, in nature.<<< We all know that morality, however
it is defined, is DEMONSTRATED through the arts in their many forms. But
morality is a cyclical entity which can also be SHAPED by the arts. Each
of us becomes what we see, hear and experience around us. In turn, we express
our individual morality through creations that others can see, hear, and
experience- and are touched by. Thus, a society shapes itself. =========================================================================
Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:39:09 -0800 From: Declan & wenchpoet >To
get the issue back in the psychological realm we must look to >the inner
life of the person.Occasionally I have students who are uneasy >when
we have nudity in painting. This is an opportunity to help them >explore
what they think and feel about their own bodies, why they think a >nude
painting is indecent, and whether an art object has the power to >coerce
their thinking and feeling. I try to help them learn that the >power
of art is the power we give to it. > >I think some depictions of
nudes are indecent, but they give me >opportunity to examine my inner
life and try to discover where this >feeling of indecency lies. I think
this is the idea Aristotle had about >art being a catharsis. > I
couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you. Artists play into the hands
of politicians by removing the themes of decency and indecency from the
realm of artistic expression and into politics. That gives power to politicians
to be the ones who define the themes. T.L. Kelly =========================================================================
Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:20:39 -0800 From: Declan & wenchpoet At
05:07 PM 3/7/96 -0500, you wrote: >re: Denman Maroney's March 5 notation
that >>>morality... is political, not >psychological or artistic,
in nature.<<< > >We all know that morality, however it is
defined, is DEMONSTRATED through the >arts in their many forms. But
morality is a cyclical entity which can also >be SHAPED by the arts.
Each of us becomes what we see, hear and experience >around us. In turn,
we express our individual morality through creations >that others can
see, hear, and experience- and are touched by. Thus, a >society shapes
itself. Is there a difference between individual morality and Morality?
Also, I would appreciate references to artistic works that have in the
past attempted to demonstrate either "individual morality" or
Morality. Thank you. T.L. Kelly =========================================================================
Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:20:23 -0600 Bill Hooper I would suggest the works of
Hogarth as an example of an artist's attempt to deal with Morality with
a capital "M". Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress" also
deals with the same subject. Morality in these instances has to do with
societal behavior that can be judged right or wrong. I do not believe art
is moral or immoral in and of itself. At best it can only reflect morality,
since morality deals with behavior. To what extent our personal morality
can be influenced by interaction with the arts, I don't know. Neither am
I certain how personal morality and Morality differ. In my own personal
experience, with movies for example, I find some movies distasteful both
because they do not reflect my morality and do not deal with a different
morality in a way which engages me in dialogue. On the other hand, other
movies present an opposite morality which can engage me in a dialogue.Part
of the reason is the degree to whichs the movie attracts me as a work of
art, and the story line is part of that art. I am not willing to give up
the idea that there are still some eternal verities, and that my personal
morality is not open to the whims of a changing society. > =========================================================================
about culture in it's high sense
Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:22:31 -0600 annadora khan This site made be of
interest to you since you like to talk about culture in it's high sense:
http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vcwsu/commons/topics/culture/culture-index.html
ann =========================================================================
arts education
Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:41:02 -0500 Jamillah K Bonjour. I am a student
at foundation level at a college in the Midlands of England and I'm suffering
a little paranoia about my work at the moment.It appears that in my college
it is accepted that tutors should teach ideas as well as technique on the
course. It is also not accepted that students should have their own style
which defines the work as their own. I understand that certain students
may need help in developing designs and I too need to learn more in the
way of techniques but what is the point of producing work in a class where
all t of the student,s products look the same as the tutors influence is
so great. There is also conflict between tutors who teach in the same field,say
fine art or 3D where students often have two tutors .What to do? There
is of course an option that I often take which is to do it myself,but to
be told that your work is wrong when you think you are on a fairly free
course can be disheartening.The point of my course at the moment ois to
expand my portfolio,my work is up to a standard to get me into University
without a problem so what is wrong? If there is anybody out there with
an opinion on this I'd like to hear it.Tutors and students who have been
through this or totally disagree ,or professional/non professional artists
with an outside opiion too. I'll be conducting a discussion about this
at college on Wednesday 20th,not heaps of time,but if anyone could contribute
before then,I could include their points of view then. Well thats all my
serious stuff out for now,all info after Wednesday helps too as I'd like
to go into teaching History of art or fine art to degree level students
later in life(After I've bummed around at Uni for a bit) .Or any old art
chit chat to expand the old grey matter,my post box is always hungry for
opinion. Cheers, Jamillah aka Mrs Peel. =========================================================================
Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:41:27 -0500 Ron Dixon Do you want to be an artist or
do you want academic certification that you are an artist? The two have
very little in common in any of the arts. I write. I also have a PhD in
English Lit. The two share next-to-nothing. The PhD confirmed that I was
too much a critic to be a writer! This is a choice you have to make. Both
are possible, but in fiction writing, I can count those who have succeeded-really
succeeded-in both on one hand. I wish you well. And I hope you are one
who succeeds. Ron Dixon / southern California USA =========================================================================
Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:36:03 -0500 Tina Anderson Jamillah or Mrs. Peel.....
I too thought that you could have free will or creative license in the
arts until I took a photograpy course last semester. When it came time
to turn in our portfolios, the professor asked that they be matted in white.
I felt that my photos would look better in a gray mat. Well, he replied
that white matting is a museum standard. They did look professional with
the white matting although this is NOT my personal preference. I was very
disappointed at this lack of control in the arts field. This is the one
place I felt student should be allowed free artistic license, after all
it's not politics or anthropology..... I chalked it up to learning yet
another difficult reality lesson. Tina Anderson. =========================================================================
Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:44:54 -0500 Ron Dixon Tina, White matting or gray.
. . another reality lesson. Please. Get a life. You're a student. If you
pl;ay your cardsa right, someday you won't be. You admit white looked professional-now
you know that. You know something. Congratulations. But stop whining. If
you don't want to be given direction, quit school and do your own work
your own way. It's quite simple. Ron =========================================================================
Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:13:15 -0600 chs >Tina, >White matting or gray.
. . another reality lesson. Please. Get a life. You're >a student. If
you pl;ay your cardsa right, someday you won't be. You admit >white
looked professional-now you know that. You know something. >Congratulations.
But stop whining. If you don't want to be given direction, >quit school
and do your own work your own way. It's quite simple. >Ron > I know
I'm butting my head in where it may not belong, but "get a life"?
So mean and hateful sounding. Ron, get a spell checker. Carol Ted Kennedy;
"My nephew will walk your daughter home." =========================================================================
Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:12:18 -0500 Ed Atkeson Jamillah>>> I am a
student at foundation level at a college in the Midlands of England and
I'm suffering a little paranoia about my work at the moment.It appears
that in my college it is accepted that tutors should teach ideas as well
as technique on the course. It is also not accepted that students should
have their own style which defines the work as their own. I understand
that certain students may need help in developing designs and I too need
to learn more in the way of techniques but what is the point of producing
work in a class where all t of the student,s products look the same as
the tutors influence is so great. You are a student, ok. You've run across
a teacher, a tutor--controlling, suffocating. Why is this person teaching?
What can you get from the course? You are the one here, the main event,
and the set-up is about learning. There may be something you can get from
this person. I think teachers sometimes protect themselves and make their
jobs easier by setting up conflict. Don't go along with this ploy. One
approach would be to find out what your tutor/teacher does best, and try
to learn that from him/her. Perhaps you shouldn't worry about expressing
yourself so much as getting the most out of every opportunity to learn.
You're in this class, might as well get the most out of it--learn whatever
it is that this teacher has to teach. Find out what's in this teacher.
Maybe there isn't much, but the investigation will have been beneficial.
Nail this teacher. You are the student, just say, "Teach me. Teach
me what you know. What do you know? I want to know what you know. I don't
know, but I must know. I'm the student--teach me! I want it all! Give me
what you have. Empty your goddam pockets." A teacher, what an extravagance!
Best, Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:21:01 -0500 Tina Anderson Hey Ron... the last time
I checked I had a pulse, a respiratory rate and my body was warm. I think
this means I have a life. Oh and by the way... I was responding to the
post/request from Mrs. Leeds, the professor from England. In response to
your rude backlash... you don't know me, I don't whine. I worked very hard
in that class to recieve an A. This included going along with the professors
wishes. I was merely bringing up one example among the MANY that I've experienced
in college that have sadly led me to believe that it is not the freeing
experience I'd hoped it would be. Instead I've found repression of thought
and creativity as in the rest of life. There are a few exceptions of course
as in everything. Instead of lashing out so rudely why don't you give me
a little credit? In the future I hope you will pay a little more respect
in response to my or any of the other ARCO postings. =========================================================================
Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:02:41 -0500 Ron Dixon Carol, Don't you all have something
more to do than cyberwhine and empathize with the downtrodden? I thought
this list would allow serious and thoughtful and even reflective people
to communicate about ideas. Instead, I wade through advertising by art
sharks, people crying about not being allowed to choose matting of their
own choice, ad nauseum. . . Call me mean and hateful, call me crazy, but
isn't there more to do than delete mail? Call me unsubscribed. Now I know
what people mean when they warn about these lists and the people who welcome
any form of communication. Thank god for books. =========================================================================
Art and money and society
Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:43:25 GMT+1000 Megan Deacon [lib] Organization:
Monash University Thinking about the discussion on the relentless pursuit
of money and the disdain/disregard for art in today's society makes me
wonder. Was it ever any different? At least in Western culture and society
it seems "high art" was something bought and paid for by wealthy
patrons and kept in their houses for their exclusive use. (And this includes
books and pieces of music also). The majority of the population didn't
have much time or money to spend on such things. Certainly they had a culture
of song, dance and stories much of which is lost today (perhaps cos it
was undervalued and also with the decline of the oral tradition) but you
could perhaps argue that we have that today in our pop culture. It just
depends on how you define art. Is a good movie a piece of art? And is art
just a pleasant decoration for life, or another leisure activity competing
with sport and other forms of entertainment? The way art is regarded today
I feel is that it has been put into a box separate from the concerns of
most people in their working or struggling daily lives and is seen as a
specialist activity done by people who are experts, or those who have the
money and time to spend on being an "artiste". Would TV producers,
writers, pop music makers, even computer game designers consider themselves
artists? Or only the most pretentious of them? It sometimes seems that
art or artistic expression is woven into the culture and daily lives of
so called traditional peoples in a more meaningful way than in the western
world. But in this world of specialized professions and when government
and organizations complain (or claim) not to be able to fulfill the material
needs of their citizens so therefore won't justify so called "arts"
funding it is hard to know what the place of art and the artist should
be. People still argue that when people are starving is it right to fund
minority events like opera or classical music? Shouldn't funding go towards
more mainstream popular entertainments (there had been a massive increase
in sports related funding in Western governements over the last 40 years)?
Others say if art is good and worthwhile it will attain popularity and
survive whether officially patronized or not. Some say the system of scholarships
and funding encourages support of the mundane who cannot survive without
help, in other words their work has no value because it doesn't fetch prices
high enough to be self funded! Some people earlier on in this list rated
art as a reason for living, or an expression of the life force or as an
essential part of life. In the past, when scepticism was in the minority
I suppose more people felt that religion, the worship of a deity was the
purpose of life, or the pursuit of eternal life, or the living of a "worthy"
life in the eyes of a higher power. Is art an ideal to take the place of
this? Or is art simply self-expression? Is it a means or an end? Or is
it a good distraction from the trials and stresses of "ordinary"
life? Sorry if these questions seem dull or simply repititious but I haven't
written for a while and I thought I would blast a few thoughts in the direction
of the list meg. =========================================================================
Reply to Messages
Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:49:58 -0500 Marilyn Gordley Arco is an excellent
site for art orientated discussions by artists, educators and students.
I have seen no other site like this one. Messages coincide with the purpose
of my work and indicate little progress in solving known problems in art
and education: Mat color and creativity. My experience is, the more colorful
the mat the weaker the work, thus mat color is a creative solution by the
student. The unexpressed issue is the student s sudden awareness albeit
unconscious of the creative art myth. Art education is about conventions,
not creative expression. Creativity is a process of the human mind. Every
person who sees a real world has a creative mind. Every field has its creative
genius. The art mind differs from the visual mind in its ability to originate
concept, content and aesthetic response, thus promoting a cognitive consciousness.
Attention and consciousness, like perception and percept and the morality
of Hogarth and Goya, differ. The concern of an anterior attentional network
in the brain brings the object of attention into consciousness. Art directs
attention making perceptions conscious, thus increasing intelligence. Graduate
teachers. Another student expressed frustration at having teachers who
are graduate students rather than legitimate artists. All fields of education
rely on student teachers because of budget considerations and enlarge the
experience of graduate students. This student is unaware that teachers
are not necessarily more able to create art or teach. Professional artists
who have a series of rejections from art exhibits often have an attitude
affecting teaching skills. Imitation of art concepts and works. One cannot
imitate an artwork because it is the projection of a unique mind. The real
issue is there are no guidelines allowing the individual s art mind to
structure a problem from visual axiom and theory. An instructor assigns
a problem based on a successful work, art convention or the instructor
s own mental sets. Imitation of designs is the art-craft tradition of apprenticeship
to the Master. Great artists studied under this system and it continues
today with poorer results. I believe the logic of the art mind uses ten
foundation mind-states to structure visual concepts. Ed, I recognized the
problem and am trying to solve it. Grants are not the answer. The beautifully
written appeal for grants sounded a lot like a request for welfare. Public
service organizations do require some governmental support. The myth of
self-expression delegates awards to those having political savvy. The result
has led to public ridicule. A remembered statement by a non-artist along
the line, no one pays me to express myself, sums up the public attitude.
During the Abstract Expressionist period a monkey was in the headlines
of a newspaper as a producer of great art. Expression is a sub-element
of percept and requires completion through form, geo-physical and material/technic
elements. The limitation of grant money is an incentive for artists and
educators to reevaluate art, the what, how and why it is essential to all
education. The art mind is not a separate thing; product making is superficial
to the subliminal message of the art mind. Acknowledging art as a part
of human nature prompts us to look for a way to access the subliminal mind
and study its thought processes through a non-verbal language.. What is
the future of civilization without art consciousness? I like to believe
that the wheel came after the cave artist had the conscious ability to
conceptualize animals and people. This commentary is a response to the
meaningful statements of the correspondents on the Arco site; thanks for
the input. =========================================================================
Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:03:09 -0500 Marilyn Gordley Ed, I was referring to
the message from the student, foundation level, at a college in the Midlands
of England. You gave him a real pep-talk You are a student, ok. You've
run across a teacher, a tutor--controlling, suffocating. Why is this person
teaching? What can you get from the course? You are the one here, the main
event, and the set-up is about learning. The student s statement: It appears
that in my college it is accepted that tutors should teach ideas as well
as technique on the course. It is also not accepted that students should
have their own style which defines the work as their own. I understand
that certain students may need help in developing designs and I too need
to learn more in the way of techniques but what is the point of producing
work in a class where all of the student's products look the same as the
tutors influence is so great. Several thoughts arose when I read statement:
1. In essence this sounds familiar. 2. As a faculty member one usually
responds to support colleagues and reassure the student, 3. The student
is an intelligent person viewing serious problems in art education and
who wants answers to valid questions. As you know from my statement I believe
new insights and methodology is important to the survival and advancement
of art education. I thought of students confronting the problem of art
convention vs. the creativity myth. Therefore, my answer was a thinking
out loud' response, Ed, I recognize the problem and am trying to solve
it. Until one knows more about the situation, the art problem, theories
and studio situation, one cannot comment; the student also admits to disenchantment
with his work at the time. =========================================================================
Replay to Welcome message
DMon, 1 Apr 1996 12:56:35 +0800 Candy Chong Hello everyone, I'm new
here. This is a reply to the Welcome message that I got asking me to introduce
myself. So...My name is Candy Chong. I'm a Chinese but I was born in the
Philippines and has lived there all my life. I joined ARCO primarily because
i would like to meet new people and exchange ideas. I'm a psychology major
and I also like literature and art. Candy Chong =========================================================================
When Jews and Gentiles Marry
Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:51:52 -0500 Jane Pook Greetings to *The List* -
I am a relatively new suscriber who finally got around to reading Danilo's
welcome message, and thought I'd respond. My most pressing interest in
the list, at the moment, is the communication aspect. I'm a graduating
senior majoring in Human Communication (Hunter College in NYC). This semester
I'm working on an independent project that perhaps some of "The List"
would be willing to help me on. If this is an inappropriate request - please
let me know. My topic is Communication Conflicts that Arise When Jews and
Gentiles Marry. I would be interested in hearing personal stories, thoughts
etc. I'm in the process of interviewing *experts* (would be glad to get
input from any experts on The List) and am looking for first hand accounts.
Please reach me via email if you're interested in starting a dialogue.
I've enjoyed many of the art related postings, and look forward to reading
the thoughts of my fellow Listers (Listees?). =========================================================================
Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:03:40 -0500 E. James Lieberman I have no problem with
looking for examples/advice on conflict issues in Jewish/Gentile marriages,
but the focus strikes me as all negative, as though conflict is the norm.
Can you broaden the focus to include unconflicted intermarriage? I realize
you can't do everything, but perhaps you can at least inquire about how
conflicts are successfully resolved. There are lots of respondents out
there, "experts" included, who have axes to grind on a subject
like this. E. James Lieberman, M.D. George Washington University School
of Medicine, Psychiatry and Esperantic Studies Foundation 202 362-3963
FAX 363-6899 3900 Northampton St. NW, Washington, DC 20015 =========================================================================
Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:32:48 -0500 Jane Pook Dear Dr. Lieberman - Actually,
I have no ax to grind - only a great curiosity. One that's a bit self serving
I might add. You see, I am a gentile woman married to a Jewish man. Over
the years I've noticed certain differences in our communication styles,
and those of our respective families, that appeared to be culturally based.
A chapter in one of my human comm text books addressed such style differences
and my interest was piqued. Your point that my topic matter may sound like
it has a negative spin to it is well taken. However, my hope is to see
how couples have successfully managed their intercultural dance - to see
what occurs - without assigning blame. And if I may say so, I think all
relationships (interculture/mixed marriages/unicultural - if that's a word!!)
have conflict in them to one degree or another. This is not necessarily
a negative - conflict can be the tread against the road that moves the
car along! =========================================================================
Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:37:48 -0500 Jane Pook Apologies to The List - when I
responded to Dr Lieberman I forgot the "to" was The List and
not him personally. =========================================================================
Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:37:25 -0500 E. James Lieberman I like your answer, and
am glad it went to the list. My intellectual mentor, Otto Rank, thought
the best arena for creativity in the post-Freudian era was personality
and relationships. Hence this topic is relevant to ARCO. You've reassured
me that you view conflict as potential help as well as hindrance. But many
readers would interpret it as a negative element, hence my search for a
more neutral term like "communication style," or a clarification
that such conflict has positive elements--like traction on the road! E.
James Lieberman, M.D. =========================================================================
Hi !
Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:04:32 +600 Melinda Giles Organization: Auburn University
at Montgomery hello, i'd like to introduce myself as a new member of this
mailing list. my name is melinda giles and i attend auburn university at
montgomery in montgomery, alabama. what attracted me to this list was the
combination of art, literature, psychology, and communication...right now
my primary interests are psychology and the art of communication, although
i look forward to reading comments on all subjects. interestingly enough,
my major is accounting, which has almost nothing to do with the stated
topics except possibly communication. i do, however, spend a great deal
of my free time learning more about those topics. my mother is german and
that whole side of the family still lives in germany, so i like to think
i have a different aspect culturally on some topics. melinda giles =========================================================================
What about literature?
Wed, 17 Apr 1996 19:19:53 -0400 Aimee J Galetto Greetings subscribers!
I have only written once to the listserv because I don't know much about
art, but I've been reading this listserv faithfully. I am doing this for
a class at my college called, Advanced Composition. My professor wants
us to generate as many responses as we can. So the question I wanted to
ask was, what about literature? This listserv is suppose to be art, literature
and psychology but I haven't seen anything that is in regards to literature.
Grant it art is important but literature is just as important. Literature
has an impact on society as a whole aft. It also is affected by today's
high-paced world. Today their is less emphasis on classic and contemporary
writings because of all the technologies that people find more interesting,
like TV and computers. I also feel that people do not read classics as
much as before and are more interested in the so-called "scandalous"
books that talk about public figures. People are more interested in reading
about Princess Diana and O.J. Simpson then Jane Austin's characters or
Charles Dickins' characters. I believe that there is a chance classic literature
may become obsolete unless parents and educators teach children to appreciate
good books. BOoks that teach morals and are well-written. In most cases
these books start with the classics. I for one am more fond of literature
that takes you to another place and makes you use your imagination then
books that spell out everything. Also with the increasing emphasis on computers
some educators fail to see the importance of reading good, moral books
with their children. If children learn young that they can learn a lot
from books they will learn to appreciate them. I wouldn't want a child
to be deprived of the feeling that they completed a good book and the feeling
of the crisp pages and smell of new or old books. I hope this posting makes
some realize that literature is important and faces the chance of losing
it's impact on society. I hope all think deeply about this topic because
I can tell that many on this list are deep thinkers as I have seen in your
messages. Thanks for your patience Aimee Galetto English Writing arts State
University of NY at Oswego =========================================================================
Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:08:56 +0800 Candy Chong Dear Subscribers, I'm fairly
new on this list and having been posting much. Actually, this is just my
second post and the reason for that is because I haven't been receiving
a lot of mails from this list. Is it because only a few people are subscribed
to this list? Now, with regards to Aimee's letter. I think the people of
this generation has been giving more attention to classics. Two books of
Jane Austen's had been made into a movie, one was Sense and Sensibility
and the other is Emma. The movie Clueless was the adaptation but they made
the setting in correspondence to the new age. The Scarlet letter was also
made into a movie. I guess the reason why the classics is not patronized
by the masses is because it takes more time reading it because some authors
are kind of dragging in their story telling, take Moby Dick for example.
Personally, even though there's not that much people left reading these
classics, I don't think it will become obsolete because they are somewhat
part of history and these books portray the era or time when it was written
which is very educational for students. That's all I can say for now. Candy
Chong BS Psychology =========================================================================
Thu, 18 Apr 1996 18:15:07 -0400 R. Brian Fain
Hello all! This is my first post to the ARCO list, so pardon me if I do
this incorrectly. I just had to reply to Aimee's post of a few days ago
in which she questions the future of literature and-- in a round-a-bout
way-- books themselves. I may ramble, so bear with me. Please allow me
play devil's advocate for a moment. I am a voracious reader and book lover...
let me say that right off. But I just have to argue a point: ARE books
obselete? Let's look at it first from an environmental standpoint. Would
not the introduction of the electronic book be the first step in creating
a ecologically correct society? And let's be honest with ourselves: aren't
the IDEAS more important than the sentimental idea of a hard-bound volume?
Aren't the ideas... the energy of them... whether transmitted from the
voice of the village storyteller, the spice of the written word, or from
the beeps and hiss of a modem... aren't these ideas the very thing we try
to preserve and protect? Aimee's idea is based, it seems, on sentiment.
But would not the novelty of internet communication allow lesser-read reader
access to these ideas? For example, witness the success of such sites as
the Gutenberg Project, that endeavors to make "important" works
available for download, free of charge. Is Aimee correct in her belief
that future generations will be deprived of the physical treasures of actually
holding a book and browsing stacks? Possibly. Likely. Yet-- optimist, I--
the truth of it could be that the ancient traditions of the page would
pass in a struggling, difficult death. There is that need to feel the volume
in one's hands that would prevent books from going the way of the LP. Even
the heresy of "pages" on the web cannot replace the papery charm
of flipping a page with fingers. Books-- indeed, literature-- can only
evolve. Perhaps into a strange, distant cousin, to electronic medium. Lack
of much originality in modern literature nonwithstanding, it is the truths
of these books that will always be in our collective consiousness; how
could it be ignored? Yet Aimee's contention that literature has to be "moral"
in order to BE literature is in error and even a dangerous idea. Readers
of the works of Henry Miller and Anais Nin, for example, would disagree
that "Tropic of Cancer," and "Delta of Venus" are not
literature. "Is it smut, or is it literature?" Is D. H. Lawerence's
"Lady Chatterly's Lover" pornography? Was I mistaken when I thought
I saw these titles in the "classics" section of Books-A-Million?
Aimee has made some interesting points, but let's not jump the gun. Literature--
however it may evolve-- will always remain an intergal part of our lives.
Call me naive, call me a dreamer, call me optimistic.... but I READ. R.
Brian Fain Seymour, TN =========================================================================
Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:00:11 -0400 Mark G. Miller At 01:08 PM 4/17/96 +0800,
you wrote: >Dear Subscribers, > I'm fairly new on this list and having
been posting >much. Actually, this is just my second post and the reason
>for that is because I haven't been receiving a lot of mails >from
this list. Is it because only a few people are subscribed >to this list?
Hello Aimee and Candy. I haven't been getting much mail, either. I sure
wish this list would get cooking because I think the subjects it is supposed
to encompass hold potential for some great discussions. As to literature
-- only a small part of the population has read much literature throughout
history. First because so many people were illiterate, and later because
pulp fiction became popular among the masses, still later because of radio,
and nowadays because of TV and the computer. I love literature and have
since I was a boy. Dostoevsky, Dafoe, Joseph Heller, Gabriel Garcia Marquez
and countless others described to me worlds I never knew existed and helped
form my personality. I am grateful to them. I wanted to be a writer of
fiction for many years, but I discovered I'm not very good at thinking
up plots. Instead, I became a newspaper reporter, so I guess I *am* a writer
of non-fiction. To exercise my muses, I took a couple of drawing classes
at the local community college last school year, and I found that I am
pretty good at drawing. Lately I have been writing rants -- I don't know
if you are familiar with them, but they are all over the place on the Internet.
Even if my rants don't rise to the level of literature, they are fun to
write. Wow, I guess that little autobiography was more information than
you all needed. But maybe to get the list going, we could all tell a little
about the creative endeavors we have engaged in ...? Mark =========================================================================
Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:29:45 -0400 Denman F. Maroney" On Apr 18, 1996
18:15:07, '"R. Brian Fain" ' wrote: >ARE
books obselete? >Let's look at it first from an environmental standpoint.
Would not the >introduction of the electronic book be the first step
in creating a >ecologically correct society? >And let's be honest
with ourselves: aren't the IDEAS more important than the >sentimental
idea of a hard-bound volume? Aren't the ideas... the energy of >them...
whether transmitted from the voice of the village storyteller, the >spice
of the written word, or from the beeps and hiss of a modem... aren't >these
ideas the very thing we try to preserve and protect? Ideas are shaped by
how they are presented. This anyway is what Marshall McLuhan argues in
The Gutenberg Galaxy: that media (such as books) shape perception by altering
the natural ratio of the senses. "We become what we behold,"
he said, paraphrasing the poem Jerusalem by William Blake. >Aimee's
idea is based, it seems, on sentiment. But would not the novelty of >internet
communication allow lesser-read reader access to these ideas? For >example,
witness the success of such sites as the Gutenberg Project, that >endeavors
to make "important" works available for download, free of charge.
A book on the Internet is not the same as a book on paper. Paper is substantial,
but computer screens are matrices of flickering dots. In other words, compared
to paper, the computer is a "cool" medium because it extends
the eye in low definition, like TV. Therefore we perceive it differently,
so we think about it differently. -- Denman Maroney =========================================================================
Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:07:14 -0400 Ed Atkeson Aimee Galetto>>>>
This listserv is suppose to be art, literature and psychology but I haven't
seen anything that is in regards to literature. Grant it art is important
but literature is just as important. Literature has an impact on society
as a whole aft. It also is affected by today's high-paced world. Today
their is less emphasis on classic and contemporary writings because of
all the technologies that people find more interesting, like TV and computers.
I also feel that people do not read classics as much as before and are
more interested in the so-called "scandalous" books that talk
about public figures. People are more interested in reading about Princess
Diana and O.J. Simpson then Jane Austin's characters or Charles Dickins'
characters. Harold Bloom's book "The Western Canon" talks about
the demise of the classics, you may find that of interest. Neil Postman
made this statement in "technopoly--" He says that we don't have
a culture, we have an economy. That pretty much sums it up. Art and lit
have traditionally been elite activities, though. The pop acceptance of
high art that we saw in the 60s--70s was an anomaly, no? Classics in paperback
flooding the bookstores, all those boomer college students. And now who
reads? Those pb classics are in boxes on the curb. We are flooded by the
marischino media. And it is so luscious until we realize that we don't
really like that taste in our mouth after all and we'll get sick and weak
if we don't take in something that's a bit more nutritious. Those of us
who turn off the goddam tv and read and write and think and make stuff
can get kind of alienated. We're weirdos from another world, the neighbors
may say. They're right! And there is a literary world out there, and an
art world. These worlds exist in parallel with the galumphing mainstream,
and are small, not much gravity, but how much world do we need? Take heart--by
taking up citizenship on a strange planet, we help keep it in existence.
Comments on any of these half-baked thoughts? =========================================================================
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 15:27:15 -0400 Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM) I've just finnished
reading all Camille Paglia's books for a graduate course assignment. In
particular SEXUAL PERSONAE has loads of detailed and interesting readings
of classic literature -- enough to chat about for weeks, believe. She is
one major-opinionated lady & she writes very very well. In over 700
pages, almost every page has something interesting. Believe me, this is
rare. Hopeanne =========================================================================
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 15:36:40 -0400 Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM) Right On! Ed --
just a tiny wiff from the 60's. I'm reasonably sure books will always be
major collectibles, and once in your possession, they are quite irrisistible;
they beg to be read. I enjoy them particularly because I don't have to
hook up to anything electronic (as it is I have to dial-in to my e-mail)
-- just pick the volume up or put it down, as it takes my fancy, and as
my time allows. What luxury. Hopeanne =========================================================================
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 15:45:35 -0400 Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM) Hey, I go to museums
frequently, and in the Tampa Bay area, they are flourishing and well attended.
Shakespear-in-the-Park is an annual and sold-out event in St.Petersburg
(and it's always one of his comedies, usually done in a 1950s style) --
have you not heard of High Culture and Pop Culture? Both ends of the continuum
exist, and there's something artful for almost everyone. Hopeanne =========================================================================
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:15:50 +0100 Olaf Johansson Hopeanne has focused on
one problem in this ongoing, comfortably lax discussion about literature.
For a moment she separated the content from the m e d i a which can be
quite interesting when it concerns an old thing like the book. Imagine
the time when there were no books (at least not for common thieves and
burglars) - all we had was s t o r i e s told by people who w e r e in
fact the media. What I mean is: Did Gutenberg do it for the money? OLAF
JOHANSSON Freelance writer Ystadsgatan 38 S-214 44 Malmo Sweden =========================================================================
Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:28:18 -0400 Denman F. Maroney I didn't see the film
but I doubt one can argue successfully that human thought holds lower ground
on film than on paper. Film isn't lower, just different. On Apr 20, 1996
15:17:51, '"Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM)" '
wrote: >Sorry to say the film SCARLET LETTER had nothing to do with
the fine book >except for its title, which is why people need to use
their eyes to read not >just to watch. Just a thought. >Hopeanne
-- Denman =========================================================================
Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:28:30 -0400 Denman F. Maroney In the evening, do you
read by candlelight? On Apr 20, 1996 15:36:40, '"Hopeanne Pendleton
(HUM)" ' wrote: >Right On! Ed -- just
a tiny wiff from the 60's. I'm reasonably sure books will >always be
major collectibles, and once in your possession, they are quite >irrisistible;
they beg to be read. I enjoy them particularly because I don't >have
to hook up to anything electronic (as it is I have to dial-in to my >e-mail)
-- just pick the volume up or put it down, as it takes my fancy, and as
>my time allows. What luxury. Hopeanne -- Denman =========================================================================
Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:06:14 -0400 Ed Atkeson >>> I've just finnished
reading all Camille Paglia's books for a graduate course assignment. In
particular SEXUAL PERSONAE has loads of detailed and interesting readings
of classic literature -- enough to chat about for weeks, believe. She is
one major-opinionated lady & she writes very very well. In over 700
pages, almost every page has something interesting. Believe me, this is
rare. Hopeanne I dig her stuff too, Hopeanne, but it doesn't seem to be
chic to admit it. I don't really care if she's right or not, I just like
her big audacious ideas. Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:53:15 -0400 Aimee J Galetto On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, Hopeanne
Pendleton (HUM) wrote: > Sorry to say the film SCARLET LETTER had nothing
to do with the fine book > except for its title, which is why people
need to use their eyes to read > not just to watch. Just a thought.
> Hopeanne > > Hopeanne, I agree totally. I didn't see the movie
yet, but from what I hear they changed a lot in th ebook including the
ending. This ruined the quality of the book and I agree you need to use
your eyes to read not just to watch. It leaves one to interpret it the
way they feel it should be nterpreted not how the movie producers want
it to be interpreted. Aimee =========================================================================
Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:52:47 -0400 Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM) Sure, Denman,
candlelight works just fine; I live in one of the lightning capitals of
the world - Florida - so we always have 'em on hand. I just can't savor
a computer screen image, you know? But I can savor, and prolong the readings
of books, or even that more archaic form -- the personal letter. On Sun,
21 Apr 1996, Denman F. Maroney wrote: > In the evening, do you read
by candlelight? > > On Apr 20, 1996 15:36:40, '"Hopeanne Pendleton
(HUM)" > ' wrote: > > > >Right
On! Ed -- just a tiny wiff from the 60's. I'm reasonably sure books >
will > >always be major collectibles, and once in your possession,
they are quite > > >irrisistible; they beg to be read. I enjoy
them particularly because I > don't > >have to hook up to anything
electronic (as it is I have to dial-in to my > >e-mail) -- just pick
the volume up or put it down, as it takes my fancy, > and as > >my
time allows. What luxury. Hopeanne > -- > Denman > =========================================================================
Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:58:03 -0400 Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM) On Mon, 22 Apr
1996, Ed Atkeson wrote: > >>> I've just finnished reading all
Camille Paglia's books > Hopeanne > > I dig her stuff too, Hopeanne,
but it doesn't seem to be chic to admit it. > I don't really care if
she's right or not, I just like her big audacious > ideas. > Ed Atkeson
> And have you encountered her "Joy of Presbyterian Sex" article?
=========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 08:48:21 -0400 Ed Atkeson > >>> I've just
finnished reading all Camille Paglia's books > Hopeanne > > I
dig her stuff too, Hopeanne, but it doesn't seem to be chic to admit it.
> I don't really care if she's right or not, I just like her big audacious
> ideas. > Ed Atkeson > And have you encountered her "Joy
of Presbyterian Sex" article? ---------------------- No. Why? Quote
me the good parts. I'll look it up. best, =========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:21:20 -0400 Damion D. Hopeanne and Ed Atkeson wrote:
>> >>> I've just finnished reading all Camille Paglia's
books >> Hopeanne >> >> I dig her stuff too, Hopeanne,
but it doesn't seem to be chic to admit it. >> I don't really care
if she's right or not, I just like her big audacious >> ideas. >>
Ed Atkeson In fact, Ed, only the very chicest people discuss Camille Paglia.
To be one of the chicest of the chic, subscribe to Paglia-L, the Camille
Paglia discussion group which has been in operation for 3 years. To subscribe
send the message Subscribe Paglia-L YOUR FULL NAME to: Listserv@listserv.aol.com
Damion =========================================================================
UG-PsychList
Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:09:39 +0800 Candy Chong Re: UG-PsychList: OJT Tracee,
Thank you for responding. With regards to your suggestions, the primary
problem that I had with him is he won't stop bugging me and talking to
me so talking to him won't work, the second one, I tried that and sometimes
it works but sometimes he resorts to tapping my arm and kicking my shoes
so I couldn't go on ignoring him forever. The third one however, was what
gave me the best help. Thank you again. Candy >You could try sitting
down with him privately and talking to him (if you >feel comfortable),
ignoring him, or asking a supervisor or another staff >person in the
clinic for advice. > >Good luck. > >On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Candy
Chong wrote: > >> Undergrad Psych Mailing List >> ---------------------------
>> Dear Members, >> I'm having my On-the-Job-Training right
now for my >> Clinical Psychology. It's like an internship. Anyway,
>> I encountered a patient in the clinic who keeps taunting >>
me and following me around even it I know that I'm supposed >> to
be cool about it but sometimes he really irritates me >> and I don't
know how to handle him. Please give me some >> advise on how I can
make him stop because he's really scaring >> me. I'm still new at
this, I'm only a junior BS psych student >> with not much experience
yet. >> I would appreciate anybody help. >> >> Candy
Chong >> cscandy@mozcom.com >> >> ============================================================================
>> To unsubscribe, mail ug-psychlist-request@psy.uq.oz.au with unsubscribe
>> in the message BODY. Address for problems: owner-ug-psychlist@psy.uq.oz.au
>> > =========================================================================
Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:00:27 -0400 Mark G. Miller At 01:09 PM 4/17/96 +0800,
you wrote: >Tracee, > Thank you for responding. With regards to your
suggestions, >the primary problem that I had with him is he won't stop
bugging >me and talking to me so talking to him won't work, the second
one, >I tried that and sometimes it works but sometimes he resorts to
>tapping my arm and kicking my shoes so I couldn't go on ignoring him
>forever. The third one however, was what gave me the best help. >Thank
you again. > >Candy I know nothing about institutional psychology,
but I would suggest you get someone to remove some of his privileges until
he leaves you alone. Mark =========================================================================
Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:54:16 +0800 Candy Chong >At 01:09 PM 4/17/96 +0800,
you wrote: >>Tracee, >> Thank you for responding. With regards
to your suggestions, >>the primary problem that I had with him is
he won't stop bugging >>me and talking to me so talking to him won't
work, the second one, >>I tried that and sometimes it works but sometimes
he resorts to >>tapping my arm and kicking my shoes so I couldn't
go on ignoring him >>forever. The third one however, was what gave
me the best help. >>Thank you again. >> >>Candy >
>I know nothing about institutional psychology, but I would suggest
you get >someone to remove some of his privileges until he leaves you
alone. > >Mark > After my asking the help of our supervisor, the
patient showed improved behavior and doesn't bother us much anymore. Thank
you for those who sent a reply to my plea for help. - Candy =========================================================================
ivory-tower culture
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 07:28:59 -0700 brad brace Joseph Beuys: Creativity
isn't the monopoly of artists. This is the crucial fact I've come to realize,
and this broader concept of creativity is my concept of art. When I say
everybody is an artist, I mean everybody can determine the content of life
in his particular sphere, whether in painting, music, engineering, caring
for the sick, the economy or whatever. All around us the fundamentals of
life are crying out to be shaped or created. But our idea of culture is
severely restricted because we've always applied it to art. The dilemma
of museums and other cultural institutions stems from the fact that culture
is such an isolated field, and that art is even more isolated: an ivory
tower in the field of culture surrounded first by the whole complex of
culture and education, and then by the media which are also part of culture.
We have a restricted idea of culture which debases everything; and it is
the debased concept of art that has forced museums into their present weak
and isolated position. Our concept of art must be universal and have an
interdisciplinary nature... =========================================================================
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:48:29 -0400 Mark G. Miller > Joseph Beuys: Creativity
isn't the monopoly of artists. This is > the crucial fact I've come
to realize, and this broader concept of > creativity is my concept of
art. When I say everybody is an artist, > I mean everybody can determine
the content of life in his particular > sphere, whether in painting,
music, engineering, caring for the > sick, the economy or whatever.
Everyone is not an artist, though I would concede a majority of people
are creative in some things they do. Many people work some menial job all
day and then sit and watch TV at night. If everyone in the world is an
artist, then the term ``artist'' has no special meaning whatsoever. >
But our idea of culture > is severely restricted because we've always
applied it to art. The > dilemma of museums and other cultural institutions
stems from the > fact that culture is such an isolated field, and that
art is even > more isolated: an ivory tower in the field of culture
surrounded > first by the whole complex of culture and education, and
then by the > media which are also part of culture. We have a restricted
idea of > culture which debases everything; I would say, rather, that
Joseph Beuys' attempt to include all fields of human endeavor and behavior
among the arts debases culture and makes the concepts of culture and art
less meaningful. > and it is the debased concept of > art that has
forced museums into their present weak and isolated > position. Our
concept of art must be universal and have an > interdisciplinary nature...
Pertinent definitions of ``creative,'' ``art''
and ``culture''
Just to help the discussion along, I will post the pertinent definitions
of ``creative,'' ``art'' and ``culture'': creative 1: having the power
or quality of creating 2: productive 3: having the quality of something
created rather than imitated art 1a: skill in performance acquired by experience,
study or observation : knack b: human ingenuity in adapting natural things
to man's use 2a: a branch of learning (1): one of the humanities (2) pl:
the liberal arts b archaic : learning, scholarship 3a: an occupation requiring
knowledge or skill : trade b: a system of rules or methods of performing
particular actions c: systematic application of knowledge or skill in effecting
a desired result 4a: the conscious use of skill, taste and creative imagination
in the prodecution of esthetic objects; also : works so produced b: the
craft of the arts c(1): fine arts (2): one of the fine arts (3): a graphic
art Culture 1 : cultivation, tillage 2 : the act of developing the intellectual
and moral faculties esp. by edcuation. 3 : expert care and training 4
: enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and esthetic
training 5 a: a particutlar state of advancement in civilization b : the
characteristic features of such a stage or state c: behavior typical of
a group of class -------> ``art 3a: an occupation requiring knowledge
or skill'' and some of the other definitions do seem to support Joseph
Beuys' argument. Still, I would hardly call a nurse or a surveyor an artist.
Perhaps artisan would be the better word: artisan: one trained to manual
dexterity or skill in a trade. Mark =========================================================================
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:53:48 -0400 Marilyn Gordley Joseph Beuys: Creativity
isn't the monopoly of artists. This is the crucial fact I've come to realize,
and this broader concept of creativity is my concept of art. When I say
everybody is an artist, I mean everybody can determine the content of life
in his particular sphere, whether in painting, music, engineering, caring
for the sick, the economy or whatever. All around us the fundamentals of
life are crying out to be shaped or created. But our idea of culture is
severely restricted because we've always applied it to art. The dilemma
of museums and other cultural institutions stems from the fact that culture
is such an isolated field, and that art is even more isolated: an ivory
tower in the field of culture surrounded first by the whole complex of
culture and education, and then by the media which are also part of culture.
We have a restricted idea of culture which debases everything; and it is
the debased concept of art that has forced museums into their present weak
and isolated position. Our concept of art must be universal and have an
interdisciplinary nature... Thanks Brad Brace for the Joseph Beuys quote.
I have several books re: Beuys, life and exhibitions. This artist is not
alone, but like others operates in the style of theirart mind and visual
art work, not making the leap from understanding the application of the
concept to the larger plane how to , as Maslow stated, apply these insights
for the creation of a better kind of human being, or a universal method
of achieving an evolution of consciousness. The Art Mind, obsessed with
the possibility of concrete realization, admits the rightness of its own
system is not as important as creating the reality for new paths. In Brainscapes
by Richard Restak, the discussion leads to the fact that the size of the
brain is not as important as the networking of neural sets. Completed the
painting; back to work on the manuscript. =========================================================================
Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:21:58 -0400 Ed Atkeson BBrace>>> Joseph Beuys:
Creativity isn't the monopoly of artists. This is the crucial fact I've
come to realize, and this broader concept of creativity is my concept of
art. When I say everybody is an artist, I mean everybody can determine
the content of life in his particular sphere, whether in painting, music,
engineering, caring for the sick, the economy or whatever. All around us
the fundamentals of life are crying out to be shaped or created. But our
idea of culture is severely restricted because we've always applied it
to art. The dilemma of museums and other cultural institutions stems from
the fact that culture is such an isolated field, and that art is even more
isolated: an ivory tower in the field of culture surrounded first by the
whole complex of culture and education, and then by the media which are
also part of culture. We have a restricted idea of culture which debases
everything; and it is the debased concept of art that has forced museums
into their present weak and isolated position. Our concept of art must
be universal and have an interdisciplinary nature... MGordley>>>
Thanks Brad Brace for the Joseph Beuys quote. Yah, me too. Thanks. "All
around us the fundamentals of life are crying out to be shaped or created."
You can feel the heart of this guy. Ed Atkeson =========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 02:42:37 -0400 Julene Thom <<
``art 3a: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill'' and some of the
other definitions do seem to support Joseph Beuys' argument. Still, I would
hardly call a nurse or a surveyor an artist. Perhaps artisan would be the
better word: artisan: one trained to manual dexterity or skill in a trade.">>>>>>>>>.
Mark, you obviously haven't been cared for by a nurse who practices the
"art of caring" or the "art of medicine"... it requires
much more than "manual dexterity" and can impact your life profoundly.
When you come into contact with someone who truly is an artist in the area
of healing and caring, you will surely rethink this rather insulting statement.
I also think it is important to remember that the words/concept of "art"
and " artist" are quite a contemporary invention (as are the
concept of "art museum/gallery")... historically, "art"
was made for decoration, religion, utility and political propoganda...
and most were part of daily life and not placed in storehouses (museum/gallery).
Most indigenous cultures do not even HAVE a word for "art". What
we now look at as art was someone's soup bowl, wall decoration, ritual
religious object or clothing. Only recently have we decided to hold the
artist up as separate from society... place the work in the storehouses
and bid to exhorbitant prices in order to make an "investment"...
even in ownership, very few will actually live with and have a relationship
with "art". Doesn't make sense to me. JM Thom =========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:00:06 -0400 Ed Atkeson <<
``art 3a: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill'' and some of the
other definitions do seem to support Joseph Beuys' argument. Still, I would
hardly call a nurse or a surveyor an artist. Perhaps artisan would be the
better word: artisan: one trained to manual dexterity or skill in a trade.">>>>>>>>>.
Julene Thom>>> I also think it is important to remember that the
words/concept of "art" and " artist" are quite a contemporary
invention (as are the concept of "art museum/gallery")... historically,
"art" was made for decoration, religion, utility and political
propoganda... and most were part of daily life and not placed in storehouses
(museum/gallery). Most indigenous cultures do not even HAVE a word for
"art". What we now look at as art was someone's soup bowl, wall
decoration, ritual religious object or clothing. Only recently have we
decided to hold the artist up as separate from society... place the work
in the storehouses and bid to exhorbitant prices in order to make an "investment"...
even in ownership, very few will actually live with and have a relationship
with "art". Doesn't make sense to me. Contemporary invention--but
don't we live in the world of contemporary invention? The "art"
scene is a way of doing something with individual human expression. It's
weird, powerful. We've erased the context for it as you say, so and it
appears distorted and fragile, absurd. Contradictory. But it's still there,
and powerful. Is individual human expression an awkward cultural leftover?
A shunned primitive bumpkin? I agree with all the changes you note, Julene,
and the comments about art in a bigger historical view helps us think about
these things. Your "make sense" comment stops me though. Do we
really want to make sense? My main problem (personally) with your list
of definitions, Mark, is that they don't apply to Joseph Beuys. Beuys splintered
and reformed the language itself as he spoke, and usually it was German
at that. To try to pin down his genius with dictionary definitions is to
miss the point by a mile. (seems to me) Please comments on these parboiled
ideas? =========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:10:57 -0400 E. James Lieberman Otto Rank's _Art and
Artist_, now in paperback (Norton) bears on the question of art over the
ages, ending with creation of personality as a new challenge in the post-Freudian
era. I like what I know of J. Beuys, who challenged the art establishment
and addressed the creative in the ordinary--people as well as things. For
more on him from a psychologically oriented art critic, see _The Cult of
the Avant-Garde Artist_ by Donald Kuspit (1993; pb 1994 Cambridge). --JL
E. James Lieberman, M.D. ejl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu George Washington University
School of Medicine, Psychiatry and Esperantic Studies Foundation 202 362-3963
FAX 363-6899 3900 Northampton St. NW, Washington, DC 20015 =========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:24:52 -0400 Hopeanne Pendleton (HUM) On Mon, 29 Apr
1996, Ed Atkeson wrote: > << -------> ``art
3a: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill'' and some > of the other
definitions do seem to support Joseph Beuys' argument. Still, I > would
hardly call a nurse or a surveyor an artist. Perhaps artisan would be >
the better word: > artisan: one trained to manual dexterity or skill
in a trade.">>>>>>>>>. > > Julene
Thom>>> > I also think it is important to remember that the
words/concept of "art" > and > " artist" are
quite a contemporary invention (as are the concept of "art > museum/gallery")...
historically, "art" was made for decoration, religion, > utility
and political propoganda... and most were part of daily life and not >
placed in storehouses (museum/gallery). Most indigenous cultures do not
even > HAVE a word for "art". What we now look at as art was
someone's soup bowl, > wall decoration, ritual religious object or clothing.
> Only recently have we decided to hold the artist up as separate from
> society... place the work in the storehouses and bid to exhorbitant
prices in > order to make an "investment"... even in ownership,
very few will actually > live with and have a relationship with "art".
> Doesn't make sense to me. > > Contemporary invention--but don't
we live in the world of contemporary > invention? The "art"
scene is a way of doing something with individual human > expression.
It's weird, powerful. We've erased the context for it as you say, >
so and it appears distorted and fragile, absurd. Contradictory. But it's
> still there, and powerful. Is individual human expression an awkward
cultural > leftover? A shunned primitive bumpkin? > I agree with
all the changes you note, Julene, and the comments about art > in a
bigger historical view helps us think about these things. Your "make
> sense" comment stops me though. Do we really want to make sense?
> My main problem (personally) with your list of definitions, Mark,
is that > they don't apply to Joseph Beuys. Beuys splintered and reformed
the language > itself as he spoke, and usually it was German at that.
To try to pin down his > genius with dictionary definitions is to miss
the point by a mile. (seems to > me) > Please comments on these parboiled
ideas? > I haven't read Beuys (is there a really good english translation?)
-- but his verbal play sounds very like William Butler Yeats. I have some
objection to decontructing language -- it's all we've got to communicate
with, verbally, and it is often hard work to do so, even when we agree
on the meanings of words. To make communication more difficult may satisfy
the artists, but frustrate the hell out of the audience. Hopeanne =========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:32:07 -0400 Mary C. Ferrara Mary writes; Art is primarily
in the mind of each person, anything pleasing to one's sensory perceptions
can be consider "art", for it gives a "creative" sort
of pleasure to an otherwise comparatively mundane and ordinary day to day
existence. Art makes things unusual, otherwordly, beyond one's usual take
on things. A painting can propose fantastic visions, songs can induce added
pleasure in experiences( how many dates would feel as good without music),
plays, movies etc, temporarily send one to a world separate from their
own. To sum it up, art is fantasy, if one's reaction to an "art form"
is pleasurable and/or introspective, it's art, if only to that one person.
=========================================================================
Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:52:39 -0400 Marilyn Gordley A wonderful source for
exploration, Otto Rank s Art and Artist, especially the concept of the
creation of personality. Upside of this, the possibility of awakening a
creative body of individuals who are able to reason on a level, right and
left brain if you will, presently unknown. The downside, the present state
of me-ism where individuals attempt to shatter social icons and institutions
for self-gratification and self-promotion. The preoccupation of art students
imitating this style of thinking wastes the time necessary for the mastery
of visual literacy. Certainly there is a visual sense although it may not
appear logical, as well as a linear one. The production of perverse visual
works with the intention of proving that one is an artist shocks without
contributing anything positive, arouses anger, distaste and mindless conversation
on the part of the public. Can one understand J. Beuy s logical statement
when viewing his art? I think not; someone must put his (?) concepts into
words and explain it. From 1941 to 1951, Adolph Gottlieb painted several
"pictographs"--monochromatic paintings composed of abstract symbols
arranged on a grid under-structure. Symbols recognized and art form understood
leads to universal comprehension on a subliminal level. Imagine as a sociologist,
you conceive a visual plan, a patterned composite of images from the Oklahoma
tragedy based on the result of me-ism. Fragment of building materials,
body parts in yellow ochre, cadmium red, black and white. You make a map
of the composition re-designing the universal symbols and identify the
image fragments composing the visual system expressing your concept. You
hire a skilled painter substituting Mind-state 3, real world images, anatomical
and architectural elements for the symbols because the artisan has the
craftsmanship that takes years to achieve. Who is the artist, you who created
the visual concept, or the skilled artisan who painted the picture? The
Art Calendar, The Business Magazine for Visual Artists, May 1996 contains
an article, The Art of Self Promotion. Future Less Future at http://www.flf.org/FLF
the second exhibition by a group of New York artists is under construction
and will contain an essay by Donald Kuspit. It will be up through August.
=========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 08:04:22 -0400 Denman F. Maroney Would you argue that
there is no such thing as a masterpiece? On Apr 29, 1996 02:42:37, 'Julene
Thom ' wrote: ><<------->
``art 3a: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill'' and some of >the
other definitions do seem to support Joseph Beuys' argument. Still, I would
>hardly call a nurse or a surveyor an artist. Perhaps artisan would
be the >better word: > >artisan: one trained to manual dexterity
or skill in a trade.">>>>>>>>>. > >Mark,
you obviously haven't been cared for by a nurse who practices the "art
of >caring" or the "art of medicine"... it requires much
more than "manual >dexterity" and can impact your life profoundly.
When you come into contact with >someone who truly is an artist in the
area of healing and caring, you will >surely rethink this rather insulting
statement. > >I also think it is important to remember that the words/concept
of "art" and " >artist" are quite a contemporary
invention (as are the concept of "art >museum/gallery")...
historically, "art" was made for decoration, religion, >utility
and political propoganda... and most were part of daily life and not >placed
in storehouses (museum/gallery). Most indigenous cultures do not even >HAVE
a word for "art". What we now look at as art was someone's soup
bowl, >wall decoration, ritual religious object or clothing. > >Only
recently have we decided to hold the artist up as separate from society...
>place the work in the storehouses and bid to exhorbitant prices in
order to >make an "investment"... even in ownership, very
few will actually live with and >have a relationship with "art".
> >Doesn't make sense to me. > >JM Thom -- Denman =========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 08:58:20 -0400 Ed Atkeson >>> I have some objection
to decontructing language -- it's all we've got to communicate with, verbally,
and it is often hard work to do so, even when we agree on the meanings
of words. To make communication more difficult may satisfy the artists,
but frustrate the hell out of the audience. Hopeanne ------------- Give
me poetry or give me death : ) I'm thinking you mean you have an objection
to obscure language. Bueys was an artiste. Cherish the obscurity. Gives
artist/audience something to work with. From journalists (on the other
hand) we expect more conformity to the generally understandable language
status quo. It's an oversimplification, but you got yer poets over here,
and journalists over here. Beuys was doing his work over towards the poetical
side of the dichotomy. He was also a big Elvis Presly fan. Best, Ed Atkeson
=========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:59:31 -0400 Mark G. Miller >><<>------->
``art 3a: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill'' and some >of
>>the other definitions do seem to support Joseph Beuys' argument.
Still, I >would >>hardly call a nurse or a surveyor an artist.
Perhaps artisan would be the > >>better word: >> >>artisan:
one trained to manual dexterity or skill in a trade.">>>>>>>>>.
Julene writes: >>Mark, you obviously haven't been cared for by a
nurse who practices the >"art of >>caring" or the "art
of medicine"... it requires much more than "manual >>dexterity"
and can impact your life profoundly. When you come into contact >with
someone who truly is an artist in the area of healing and caring, you will
>>surely rethink this rather insulting statement. The statement was
not meant to be insulting. I stand by it. Anyone can offer adequate care
to a sick person, but it takes a special sort of genius to compose a symphony
or create a masterpiece in the visual arts. (And you didn't address yourself
to the surveyor.) I am a writer of news stories. If anyone can lay claim
to the title of artist, certainly a writer can. Yet I don't think of myself
as an artist (at least not in writing), even though I craft stories that
are said to be moving and intelligently written. >>I also think it
is important to remember that the words/concept of "art" >and
" >>artist" are quite a contemporary invention (as are
the concept of "art >>museum/gallery")... historically,
"art" was made for decoration, religion, > >>utility
and political propoganda... and most were part of daily life and >not
>>placed in storehouses (museum/gallery). Whether it's placed on
the wall of a home or church as decoration instead of in a museum, art
works serve the purpose of pleasing the senses and/or conveying certain
messages of the artist, both now and in past ages. Just because we now
place a fraction of all art work in museums doesn't mean the definition
of art has changed. > Most indigenous cultures do not >even >>HAVE
a word for "art". What we now look at as art was someone's soup
>bowl, >>wall decoration, ritual religious object or clothing.
In my mind, historical artifacts such as Native American clay pots from
3,000 years ago are not art just because people collect them. >>Only
recently have we decided to hold the artist up as separate from >society...
>>place the work in the storehouses and bid to exhorbitant prices
in order >to >>make an "investment"... even in ownership,
It's untrue that ``holding the artist up as separate from society'' is
a recent trend. Artists have been retained by the rich and powerful and
paid well for hundreds of years because they have very special talents.
I'm not familiar with the history of art-as-investment, so I won't argue
that point with you. Mark (mgm@n-jcenter.com) =========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:59:08 -0400 Denman F. Maroney I beg to differ. Art
is in the mind of every person not each person. Art rewards us by illuminating
universal truth or heightening our perception of reality. Entertainment
gives pleasure by diverting us from ordinary existence. Art is not entertainment,
and entertainment is not art. Masturbation can be pleasing to one's sensory
perceptions, but masturbation is not art. Art makes things real, not otherworldly.
It is reality not art that is often beyond one's usual take on things.
That is why art is so important. Good music, like a good book, deserves
to consume one's attention not serve as background to a date, play, movie
or anything else. Art is the antithesis of fantasy. The end of fantasy
is escape. The end of art is truth. Truth is inescapable. Art makes it
beautiful. On Apr 29, 1996 22:32:07, '"Mary C. Ferrara" '
wrote: >Mary writes; >Art is primarily in the mind of each person,
anything pleasing to one's sensory >perceptions can be consider "art",
for it gives a "creative" sort of pleasure >to an otherwise
comparatively mundane and ordinary day to day existence. Art >makes
things unusual, otherwordly, beyond one's usual take on things. A >painting
can propose fantastic visions, songs can induce added pleasure in >experiences(
how many dates would feel as good without music), plays, movies >etc,
temporarily send one to a world separate from their own. To sum it up,
art >is fantasy, if one's reaction to an "art form" is pleasurable
and/or >introspective, it's art, if only to that one person. -- Denman
=========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 22:14:57 GMT Paula Bannerman
I'm new to this List and have been fascinated by the concepts presented
in this thread. As an artist myself (in more ways then one) I find that
Art is truly undefineable. I can't stand in judgement of someone elses
idea of Art...I can only search to understand. To call this Art and this
not Art goes against the very grain of what Art is. The beauty in seeing
the world through the eyes of another attracts me to the many forms Art
may take. To me, it is a somewhat abstract, philosophical journey. To touch,
in some brief, insignificant way the mind of another opens up the societal
bonds, the very ropes that hold us in check. Whether the Expression be
Mad, Chaotic horror, or , Beautiful & reflective they each hold value.
One could interject that the only definitive definition of Art is an inner
expression made in some form real. A vast expanse of possiblities awakens
our sense of awe & fear. It's form is the very essense of the expression
itself. Often I find people search to put some lofty, intellectual reasoning
and/or definition to Art. This I find amusing since Art is perhaps one
of the more "base" forms of expression we as humans exhibit.
Art comes at you at many levels. It is the need to somehow conceptualize
that which surrounds us. As in Cave paintings...these are not considered
Art to perhaps the people who created them, yet to some they epitomizes
the very nature of expression itself. You can question someones concept
of Art...but to question your own reactions to anothers concept might lead
you farther. The line you draw is your own. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paula -- Pbannerm@icis.on.ca Separate dominions of space, connecting in
a tirade of fascination. Effulgent cliques without dimension. --Internet--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:42:55 -0400 Mary C. Ferrara Mary writes; Art is primarily
in the mind of each person, anything pleasing to one's sensory perceptions
can be consider "art", for it gives a "creative" sort
of pleasure to an otherwise comparatively mundane and ordinary day to day
existence. Art makes things unusual, otherwordly, beyond one's usual take
on things. A painting can propose fantastic visions, songs can induce added
pleasure in experiences( how many dates would feel as good without music),
plays, movies etc, temporarily send one to a world separate from their
own. To sum it up, art is fantasy, if one's reaction to an "art form"
is pleasurable and/or introspective, it's art, if only to that one person.
=========================================================================
Some responses to your questions
Sat, 20 Apr 1996 19:39:17 -0400 carolyn piazza Dear Danilo Curci, Here
are some responses to your questions. >1. ARCO would like to be (or
become) a multi and trans-cultural list, to which > are invited to participate
people that do and/or like arts (in all its > expressions), literature,
psychology, (science of) communication. > Which is the main interest
that made you subscribe this list ? I am subscribing to this list because
I am interested in the "arts" and in language communications
(particularly literature, writing, and foreign language) > 2. Where
are you from: country, town, language, culture, experiences... ? > I
am from Florida in the U.S. I am an Italian American. I love Italy and
I can read, write, and speak a little Italian. >3. Wich topics are you
more interested on, among them proposed in the > message ?
Or: would you propose one or more new topics? I am an educator so I am
interested in arts programs, language learning, multi-cultural arts, and
the performing arts (music, dance, and theatre/drama). > >4. What
do you think about communicating between people about topics > of ARCO
list using the medium of Internet and of a mailing-list? >I think its
a great way to share ideas. >5. Which do you think we should
explicitely or implicitely accept > to improve the communication avoiding
too much flaming ? I am new to the internet. What is flaming, exactly?
> >6. ARCO list is a list connected to Global Psych projects >
( URL: http://rdz.acor.org/index.html ) : if you can use a browser >
you can visit this site and also subscribe The GlobalPsych Bulletin, >
where are news on ARCO list activities, too. You can join both > pages
from ARCO Home Page. > >Thank you if you'll be so kind to replay
to this letter >(to the ARCO list: ARCO@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU >------
> Carolyn L. Piazza Florida State University 115 Stone Building Department
of Educational Theory and Practice Tallahassee, Florida 32306 =========================================================================
New to the group!
Wed, 24 Apr 1996 22:19:51 -0400 Melissa Brooks Hello all! My name is
Melissa and I just joined the ARCO list. I am a 24 year old college student
studying secondary education. I live in Alabama but I am moving to New
York in June when my finace' is to start his medical residency. I am very
excited about all of the culture I will be exposed to in New York. I have
loved literature for as long as I can remember and this year I am enrolled
in an art history class which has interested me very much. I look forward
to dicussing these arts and more with all of you. Sincerely, Melissa =========================================================================
Wed, 24 Apr 1996 22:28:43 -0400 Mark G. Miller >My name is Melissa and
I just joined the ARCO list. Hi, Melissa. :-) I hope you can add some life
to the list because there haven't been many posts on here. Welcome to you.
Mark =========================================================================
Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:49:14 -0400 Melissa Brooks Mark, I'll do my best to
please, or at least be interesting! Glad to know ya! Melissa =========================================================================
Thu, 25 Apr 1996 03:48:45 +0800 Candy Chong Hello Melissa, glad to have
you on the list. Candy =========================================================================
New member to ARCO
Thu, 25 Apr 1996 00:51:17 -0400 Mary Ann Siefert As
per Danilo's request for me to send some info about myself and my interest
in this discussion group to all members on the list, I shall try to repeat
what I sent to him yesterday(23 Apr). I am from the US and reside in Dayton,
Ohio. My interest in joining this group arises due to some recent travels
to Italy. My story is somewhat long , but to condense somewhat, I met a
very wonderful, talented person upon my visit(my first) to Rome last year(Feb/Mar,
1995).He has been drawing and painting the most interesting images, since
only 1979. His works are most fascinating, since they incorporate philosophical,
mythological and psychological themes. He is self-taught,and before he
began to draw, first with pencil on paper, then painting with oil pastels
and /or oils on paper or canvas, he was one of the pioneers of cardiac
surgery in Rome. Anyway, I would like to further his recognition in the
US and elsewhere by writing and possibly lecturing and developing locations
for exhibitions of his beautiful images. Also, he has published a most
beautiful book, entitled, ANIMUS.ANIMA, in 1991, in Italian, that I would
like to translate into English. However, my Italian is rather rudimentary
and I have been searching for someone to assist me. Fortunately, due to
a conversation with a curator at the Dayton Art Institute, I found a wonderful
lady here in Dayton, who was originally from Florence, Italy. She has a
Ph.D. in Art History from the University of Florence and a MLS degree from
Kent State University in Ohio, and we have become good friends and even
spent time in Italy in Florence during the Christmas/ New Year's holiday
, since she spent the months of Dec/Jan there. Anyway, thank you for listening
to my story and I look forward to further discussions. Bye for now and
ciao to Danilo. Mary Ann =========================================================================
Affirming discrimination
Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:10:27 -0700 brad brace Newsgroups alt.art.colleges,alt.art.marketplace,alt.art.scene,alt.art.vitual-beret,rec.art
s.fine,alt.artcom,alt.discrimination,alt.feminism Subject: Re: Discrimination
In The Art World Date: 22 Apr 1996 21:47:53 GMT Message-ID: References:
<317AB2CD.360A@ucs.orst.edu> In the city of Toronto Canada we have
a school called "The Ontario College of Art." The school has
instituted a program where NO MALES will be hired to teach "art"
until the year 2005! -- gregs =========================================================================
Music/Language/Psychotherapy
Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:23:25 -0400 E. James Lieberman I've played the
cello for 50 years, practiced psychiatry for 35, and today auditioned for
a psychiatrist's musicale to be held here June 2, a benefit concert. While
I've kept active in chamber music over the years and play with an orchestra
occasionally, this is the first time I've ventured to play a Bach solo
Suite for an audience. I was nervous yesterday, less so today, and played
as well as I do in practice, and am satisfied. Now the challenge is to
deal with the performance itself. I've been interested in the psychology
of stage fright or performance anxiety. I have virtually no problem when
it comes to public speaking, and very little when playing in an ensemble.
But sitting all alone with the cello, and wanting to play as comfortably
as I do at home, but for an audience--that's the challenge. I tell other
folks that the first thing is to remember that the audience is not hostile,
they want you to succeed, not fail. Anyone out there with some experience?
--JL E. James Lieberman, M.D. George Washington University School of Medicine,
Psychiatry and Esperantic Studies Foundation 202 362-3963 FAX 363-6899
3900 Northampton St. NW, Washington, DC 20015 =========================================================================
Tue, 30 Apr 1996 07:50:59 -0400 Denman F. Maroney Stage fright is a force
for good when you know you can play. "I know the piece; I really want
to convey the feeling and form" is positive stage fright. "I
doubt I can negotiate that passage" is negative stage fright. The
time to really worried is when you become so sure of yourself that you
lose your stage fright. That's when your performance is likely to be a
disaster. Likewise I would say a really good warrior is afraid to die.
If s/he weren't afraid s/he wouldn't fight so hard. On Apr 27, 1996 14:23:25,
'"E. James Lieberman" ' wrote: >I've
played the cello for 50 years, practiced psychiatry for 35, and today >auditioned
for a psychiatrist's musicale to be held here June 2, a benefit >concert.
While I've kept active in chamber music over the years and play with >an
orchestra occasionally, this is the first time I've ventured to play a
Bach >solo Suite for an audience. I was nervous yesterday, less so today,
and played >as well as I do in practice, and am satisfied. >Now the
challenge is to deal with the performance itself. I've been interested
>in the psychology of stage fright or performance anxiety. I have virtually
no >problem when it comes to public speaking, and very little when playing
in an >ensemble. But sitting all alone with the cello, and wanting to
play as >comfortably as I do at home, but for an audience--that's the
challenge. I tell >other folks that the first thing is to remember that
the audience is not >hostile, they want you to succeed, not fail. Anyone
out there with some >experience? --JL > >E. James Lieberman, M.D.
ejl@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu George Washington University >School of Medicine,
Psychiatry and Esperantic Studies Foundation 202 >362-3963 FAX 363-6899
3900 Northampton St. NW, Washington, DC 20015 -- Denman =========================================================================
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