SITE MAPSo Who Hates Classical Music?
July 12, 2000
We live in the age of political correctness. What this means is that we accept a few lies in hopes of preventing real violence from breaking out between people, which very likely would arise should people's real feelings and opinions be allowed the light of day. In this social climate, we never accept that real differences of opinion or values matter: we never accept that hate is a valid human emotion. We paper over our feelings and much of this paper is increasingly legal. That this is so contributes more to the overwhelming public resentment of the legal profession, giving greater credence to the euphemism, "lawyers are liars."
And what is even worse, most of us become increasingly phony and superficial in our social interactions, aping the mannerisms of the politically correct stereotypes we are continually fed by a media obsessed with the politically correct "line" until all that is really ourselves becomes so private that only the very few who know us well are allowed to know our deepest prejudices, which despite all the claims against them from political correctness still make the most sense to us.
Despite the velvet oppression of this current social climate, a certain degree of curiosity is bound to persist. People really do not want to have to lie about how they really feel even though they are quite aware of the violence that could and would result should their real feelings be revealed.
Maybe there are people out there who really do hate Classical Music as much as they seem to hate other things. It was always my impression that those who were deeply involved with Classical Music had a deeper hatred of other forms of music than those who might actually hate Classical Music. The reasons for this hatred included the resentment that so much discipline and effort was required to do Classical Music, hard work that was not materially compensated in comparison to the notoriety and dollars that were thrown at pop music stars.
There has also always been a fierce competition among those involved in Classical Music, much more so than with any other genre of music, that has tended to strain nerves, emotions, tempers. One of the drawbacks that I have entertained for years about getting back into Classical Music in a more professional sense, being a composer myself, has been that I really didn't like the highly temperamental personalities that tended to surround Classical Music and I dreaded having to deal with these kinds of people. These days I'm far more likely to take their heads off and worry about the consequences later. Of course having said this, it is quite another matter whether I would actually do so. After all decent Classical Musicianship is getting so rare that one might be cutting off one's nose to spite their face.
Some people who are not familiar with these types of people at close range attribute the vague sense of superiority many of them show as snobbishness, whereas what is mostly going on is a deep seated sense of personal inferiority among many classical musicians, many of whom came up from very humble backgrounds. In quite a number of cases, advancement in Classical Music was a ticket out of poverty or obscurity.
I am indebted for many of the ideas I'll be discussing in this piece to participants in the moderated classical music list, many of whom are obviously quite distinguished professionals.
I have excerpted sections from what some of these people said and their words will appear in blue, mine as usual will appear in white.
Music that is "too too"....
Female Schatz wrote:
A few months ago I heard a live performance of David Ott's concerto for two cellos.
I have never heard this work or any of David Ott's music. It was a very modern composition and one could easily have told that it had been composed in the latter half of the 20th century without knowing who David Ott is or anything of the sort. It had much to offer and much merit to it, but after a while it simply became too much to listen. During the intermission that came right after the concerto, I asked the person I was with for an opinion of it. The reply I got was that it was just "too too" which summed it up rather well. It was a challenging piece to listen to but it was too dissonant, too staccato and too much of other things to be something that most people would want to listen to for pleasure. I think that a lot of modern classical music has gone too far in the directions of dissonance or other features for the majority of people. While I would not say that it is bad music, much modern classical music is clearly "too too". I think that may have had the effect of driving some people away from the genre.I remember years ago attending a piano recital by the wife of the Hungarian composer Tibor Serly (spelling?), who was supposedly the person credited with completing Bela Bartok's third piano concerto, a work that I have always liked. Anyway she played some pieces of her late husband's which highlighted his particular style which was a "system" like twelve tone serialism. I was nodding through the whole concert and finally left at intermission. In the lobby a small woman was angrily gesticulating, "I came here hoping to hear something to add to my repertoire, he wasted his life, he should have been a plumber!" She ran out, hopped into a limo and was gone. I was told that she was Alicia de Larocha. Needless to say my friend and I had to find an espresso bar to revive ourselves. The music was "too too".
Classical Music takes time, lots of time. Is all the time spent with it worth it? After all it's only music.
Social class, culture, etc., are also factors, but only because they affect the extent to which the listener is encouraged or motivated to begin the listening process in earnest.
Indeed, it might well be said that those who have the time, and the means are those most likely to get themselves involved in Classical Music, either as performers or listeners. Very few people, indeed, cannot appreciate and even grow to love most mainstream classical music, given time and the inclination to listen!John Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html
But it actually is true that those who have been drawn to interest themselves in Classical Music have come from a variety of backgrounds, some quite humble. They had the time or they took the time. Why they did so seems to involve a deeper question about the power of this music. We aren't dealing with that question in this piece, we will in another one.
Classical Music isn't popular. Who wants to be a non-conformist?
To the reasons for why many people prefer other kinds of music than classical, I would add that for most people there is a social value in "listening to the same music as everybody else does", as that is a good subject for talking with likes.
Mats Norrman
The only problem with this is that if one merely limits their musical interest to what's "in" at the moment, one either junks what one liked last week, or more likely one never really "likes" anything. There is after all some attachment made to what one likes. With music, this usually means one wants to repeat the experience. It used to be that one could tell which generation one belonged to by the pop music they liked. It was partly a good thing as positive memories were associated with the music, but partly a bad thing in that people who had never formed an attachment to a particular music ignored it or worse. But with Classical Music, one has always had a wider range of music that can transcend age, or as I have suggested already, social or economic status.
Snobbishness in reverse?
I am much older than you,
he was answering someone else and I would like to be able to tell you that as people get older, they get wiser. But I find many of the same attitudes among my peers that you find among yours. Not as prevalent, perhaps, but not uncommon either. We have a "just plain folks" snobbishness that is just as damaging, and just as wrong as the kind some people associate with classical music. Keep yourself free from these things and you will do well. Take care,Bob Lyman
http://www.oocities.org/Soho/Workshop/7610/
http://www.artists-in-residence.com/users/radiance/
"Yep, I likes all kinds of music, country and western. Now, pass me that can of beer." I laughed my head off. We sure don't want to be too different do we? Get too much of that "long hair" music and what would people think? They might think we were getting too "high falutin." I'd almost have to say that these days if you are really into Classical Music you are making a radical statement about yourself, that you do not want to be "just plain folks" in the American sense. This is a weird country after all. We have, or used to have, great respect for education. But we have always despised the educated.
Racial Stereotypes?
I am a black man and I LOVE classical music! There. Now I feel better. :-)
Jeffrey Hall
<HallJS@Npt.NUWC.Navy.Mil>I guess I feel better too. This one made me chuckle. One of my first girlfriends in college was a talented viola player from Detroit. She was black. As anyone can see from the pictures of me on this website, I am quite white. As I said above, for some people, advancement in Classical Music was a way out of poverty and obscurity. It was so for her. There have always been a number of black classical musicians. There's even some convincing evidence that Beethoven may have been black. What is relatively new are the number of Asians who have gravitated into it.
Your Average Listener
For the average listener...
1 Tunes aren't repeated often enough.
Unless you're listening to minimalist compositions, LOL.2 Pieces are too long.
Yep, this music takes time. Can't stick those commercials in at convenient intervals.3 Beat is not often clear and changes sometimes, you can't dance to it.
Practically none of it uses those relentless pounding drumbeats, that after about sixty seconds give me a headache, and while you can't "buggie" or whatever to any of it, there are in fact dances that one could dance to much of it, but again one would need the time....4 Too much variety in the harmonic rhythm.
Yeah, I guess that's a valid complaint, not monotonous enough. But then again most people don't have the time to really listen, or music for them is used for something else.5 Too wide of a dynamic range. Sometimes you can hardly hear it.
Yeah I guess after you've had your ears and brains bashed in by a lot of the hardest heaviest rock music out there, why else do they call it "rock"?, it makes sense that the softest passages in Classical Music might be hard to hear. Is it the music or are they just getting hard of hearing? Eh?6 Usually requires some of your attention to figure it out.
Oh yeah, big time, and sometimes not just your attention. Why some of it can really mess up your emotions, cause you to burst into tears, cause you to really FEEL something. Amazing that music could do something like that, just music. Quite a lot of people do not like their emotions messed with that way and they don't want to waste their attention on much of anything as that's way too much work.7 Too much of it. When a new tune becomes a hit, you hear it a lot. (well I guess that may be why we have "standard repertoire.")
Yeah and after that hit tune fades, you hardly ever hear it again. Oh I guess they play those on the "oldies" stations, and then later release it on cheap CD's. Yeah, there is too much of it (Classical Music) isn't there? So much of it in fact that its impossible for any single individual to have heard say all of the music any one of the great composers may have written. That in itself might be a downer. After all if you really wanted a collection of everything the Beatles did, you'd merely have to buy 20 or so CD's. You might get all of Chopin on 20 CD's, but not all of Brahms, certainly not all of Beethoven or MOZART or BACH, good grief! By the way, Georg Phillip Telemann holds the all time record. I think he wrote something like seven thousand compositions! But it's impossible to ever hear the actual Beatles do any of their music live anymore. In Classical Music, even today, a composer may not play his own music. There is a distinction. The reasons for this are worth another piece.8 There are too many styles in classical music. It isn't easy to know what to expect.
Which is quite different from most pop music which is so easily predictable that one can safely ignore it and relegate it to the background of everything else one is doing. Again, Classical Music requires the attention of listeners as well as performers, an attention that is already at a premium. In consumables (wine, beer and coffee), variety may be a virtue. In music the less variety for some, the better. That way they can safely ignore it.Karl
Thanks Karl. To wit, the average listener doesn't listen at all. Hearing and listening are not the same thing. Life and consciousness are likewise not identical, but I'm digressing....
Peer Pressure and More...
I remember that as a teenager in the 70's, I was embarrassed to buy classical albums, (particularly the ones with Birgit Nilsson on the front cover posing suggestively), and would tell the store clerk that it was "for my mom."
LOL, I love it, almost like having to buy pads for your girlfriend.As with many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth to them. Awhile back another poster wondered if there was a correlation between the arts and homosexuality. I think the answer is yes and no.
LOL, I think the answer is YES. But not everyone involved in Classical Music is gay.Urban areas attract artists. Cities tend to have a concentration of enlightened people, money, educational institutions and culture. Most major cities have major symphony orchestras, art galleries, libraries, and the like. Artists can find work, share ideas with other intellectuals, and enrich themselves. Gays, like many other groups in history finding themselves the objects of misunderstanding and hatred, have created ghettos for themselves in the same major urban areas for both protection and a need for more tolerant and enlightened neighbors.
The analysis is pretty good here. You do find Classical Music performed in the country, but mostly during the summer, as though the musicians were on vacation from their normal home in the cities. Classical Music is mostly an urban affair. Same for homosexuals, but they have also gone into the countryside, especially in the West and the Northeast. I have also noticed that many of these "country gays" are actually aping the surrounding culture, including a preference for country & western music, dogs and shotguns!
While being gay doesn't necessarily make one inclined to be an artist, it should be no surprise that with so many gays and artists sharing the same concentrated yet invigorating space, that an association was drawn. (And how convenient and wonderful it must be to take the bus down to the local world-class opera house and art museum.) The downside is that unusually dense concentrations of like people can have a tendency to exacerbate stereotypes, (easily mass-producible), such as the drag queen, and for our purposes, the opera queen; these are the few glimpses of gay life that trickle down into the popular consciousness and collide with standard perceptions of what is appropriate and valuable.
Well I don't know about "appropriate and valuable." It seems to me that one of the affects of political correctness, if it wasn't even a goal, is to dismiss anything as either appropriate or valuable in favor of an everything and anything goes attitude. I doubt that most people think that all gays are "drag queens" or even that all gays who happen to dig opera are "opera queens". In fact, I'd even say that since the 70's, the percentage of urban gays who are involved with Classical Music or any of the other fine arts has been on a significant decline. Maybe this has more to do with the generally improved acceptance of gays in the mainstream culture.
Another thing that makes the enjoyment of Classical music suspect is its celebration of the past. Young people are an off-shoot of a former generation and a former culture. It is only natural that the later would want to replace the former, and nowhere is this need felt more than when growing up. For you to choose the stagnant, alien, and reflective world of CM is surely unusual, (and applaudible), but it is going to be hard for your high-schooler friends to articulate their bewilderment and suspicion of your interests in any other way than to compare it to the only other alien world they know that does have a one-word definition? that of the "gay."
Isn't it interesting that so many think so much of the mere four years of high school in this country, as if those years were the focus of one's entire life? It's an indication of how immature this country and its culture really are. We even routinely allow verbal expressions from high school aged people to become the everyday coin. OK, so high school opinions suck! Nobody in high school could even imagine the depth of most of the fine art that has been created, have much of what it takes to express anything very deep or meaningful. They don't know anything about the sacrifices that adults must make for life, for love, for sex, for health, etc. I have said for a long time that the kinds of music people listen to in high school are "kid music" that should be played by kids. The idea that people in their fifties are out there playing "kid music" strikes me as totally ridiculous. They act as if they couldn't get enough of those mere four years when they didn't know anything and didn't want to know anything more. It's called innocence and as the saying goes innocence is bliss. Well, I've been around, lived and worked in New York City, BABY! and people in high school don't know shit about real life! Maybe its fitting that Classical Music eludes most of them.
To make things more difficult, young American males define their masculinity not as an internal value, but by external values? proven feats and association--who they hang around with, what they do, how they act.
That's really not so different from the way any YOUNG males are the world over. The specific American problem has to do with the high school culture that predominates here, if that is a problem. I guess my message to any high school aged person interested in Classical Music would be that the high school years are soon over, and should be kicked once done as there are many more years to go that make a full life. What other people think in high school doesn't matter. Most of the people you know in high school you wont know when you're forty. If you like Classical Music, go right ahead and like it and spend all the time you want to get to know it. It's your life and it doesn't begin and end with high school. If this makes you a lonely outcast during high school, believe me there are worse fates.
Masculinity is associated with worth and strength?any association with an activity perceived of as less than masculine, might drain them of their own strength.
Playing Beethoven piano sonatas at full tilt is likely to drain most people of their strength too. As I already said, the opinion of any young person in high school isn't worth very much in the long run. Very few people in that age group are ever exceptional. Most are young "skulls full of mush". If we continue to preserve and honor a culture that is so inherently immature, is it any wonder that we have so many middle aged "skulls full of mush" walking around?
Because there is an association with gayness, (weakness?), and CM in America, you are right, people will stereotype. (Even some of our own listers seem a little unsettled by such associations, but more on that in a moment.) In Europe, classifications seem to be much looser regarding what is perceived as masculine. (*Manhood in America: A Cultural History/Michael Kimmel)
Haven't read it, but if Kimmel failed to mention the stunting of, not just the American masculine outlook but the feminine outlook as well, by this focus on the high school years that is almost obsessive in America, he would have missed the point.
Many men on this list twice your age and (presumably) married feel the need to qualify their love of CM with awkward segues into reminders that they really really do find women attractive. And these men are beyond the rigid conformities of high school. At least yours is positive. Reviewing some of the posts on Women and CD covers, a distillation of some of the commentary turns out to be not very positive: "I?tm)ll listen to her but I won?tm)t look at her," or, conversely, "I?tm)ll look at her but I won?tm)t listen to her." I hope you are not going there.
Why hell, I will! A beautiful woman happens along, I with my limited vision, will look, whether she's on a CD cover or not. I have a picture of Anne Sophie Mutter on my wall. If I were into pinups I'd want one of her. I remember going with my daughter to get her driver's licensee. We went there with a friend of hers who is a large girl. A woman wearing a very short skirt walked in, I looked. My daughter's friend commented that I saw pretty well for a blind man.
John Smyth
Thanks, John! Well, one thing for sure is that if you're in high school and discover that you are either gay or like Classical Music all I can offer to you is to turn your back on much of what passes for society in high school. Don't even bother with acceptance or popularity. You'll never be "in" and guess what?, it isn't even worth it to be "in" in high school. Much better to be "in" when you're about thirty-five. But then like most things that are worth anything, including Classical Music, it takes time. Don't get sidetracked in high school. Get good grades there as that's all that matters and get out.
World Music?
I continue to be surprised that we are all apparently able to enjoy World Music but somehow classical music is the preserve of WASPs.
Anthropology was invented by upper class Englishmen as an excuse to "study" the primitive peoples of the rest of the world as though they were mere animals. I have tended to view the rash of "World Music" as something similar with a commercial twist. The most successful of this huge genre has to be the Afro-Caribbean styles. Anyone can groove to this stuff whether one is white or a "person of color". As I said above, there have been blacks involved in and interested in classical music for a long time. Any more and the stereotype might be more aptly that Classical Music was the preserve of the Asians!
You only have to look at the extraordinary (and covet-worthy) selection of classical material issued in Japan to realize that the music has appeal beyond its geographic origins.
Deryk Barker
Doubtless, Deryk knows that in Japan around Christmas, which is a foreign holiday to them, they all flock to hear Beethoven's Ninth! I actually heard one of these Japanese Beethoven's Ninths and was very impressed with the quality and intensity of their performance! Yep, they sang it in German too.
Civilized?
I still remember the wonderful line in the movie, "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" Sidney Poitier, who wants to marry Spencer Tracy's daughter, phones and wants to alert him before coming to dinner: "I am colored" he says. "Oh, what color are you?" asks Spencer Tracy. I have been reading this exchange with some disappointment in myself, and in our times. I wanted to write "what does your color have to do with loving classical music" And I was saddened by realizing that I, and I am sure everyone else, readily knew the reasons for the "I am black and I love..." statement. The day we can genuinely ask that question, and not just rhetorically, will be the day when we will have taken one more step on the long journey towards becoming civilized. By the way, I am "sort of" white and I love jazz. There, I said it, but alas I do not feel anything. So, I better put on a jazz record.
Peter Harzem
Well Peter, I dig jazz too. As a matter of fact it is an important element in my compositional style. I regard jazz and Classical Music as essentially "adult" music whereas a lot of the pop music is "just for kids." I am not one to sweep valuable distinctions under any rugs. And please Peter, and anyone else, there is no sense feeling guilty about the failings of others to behave more "civilized." You couldn't have done anything to change a pattern that has been getting set in this country since the end of World War II. It's high school, rock 'n roll, TV, the movies, sitcoms, junk food, etc. all keeping people in a conventionalizing focus on their teens. We regard it as an accomplishment to have mothers taken for their teenage daughter's older sisters. What do you want? You expect people to really think? You expect more people to really listen? That's much too hard for your average American teenager and the largest part of Americans who are just aging teenagers grasping for their share of cheap beer and ever more expensive cigarettes.
You suppose race relations and stereotypes could have been made any better by marching and law? Have you ever been in a private party where you were the only white person there and really listened to what the people around you were saying, how they were interacting, how they regarded each other? You would soon realize that the black people in America cannot be stereotyped as much as regarded as a distinct group with a different outlook than that the rest of us. Do we really want to replace their often self-combative but essentially realistic outlook with our cheesy high school centered culture? I think that would be like leading most conscientious young black people into their worst nightmare.
It is not that we should try to homogenize people into one culture. That's not civilization. What we can and should do is to honor and respect our differences and distinctions. That would be a real civilization. And as to how and why Classical Music, which had a bright future in this country 100 years ago, failed to grasp the leadership of the music culture in this country, which is a relevant question, that too is for another piece.
An interchange
John Smyth wrote:
"Many men on this list twice your age and (presumably) married feel the need to qualify their love of CM with awkward segues into reminders that they really really do find women attractive."
A shaky premise leads to an inaccurate conclusion. John seems to assume that we all know about the so-called connection between "gay" and classical music. Personally, the only source where I've ever heard of this connection is from classical music lovers on this list. I've heard about the "nerd" connection, even used it when I was younger. That's about it. John might consider that some heterosexual men simply love women so much that they enjoy being with them, listening to them, talking to them, and even writing about them. A hidden agenda doesn't have to exist.
I only have one basic answer to the thread question - Not me.
Don Satz
LOL, not me either, but so what? There is such a thing as homophobia. Mostly it's a deep seated fear that oneself is homosexual rather than that a homosexual person deserves to be feared. Maybe I can credit my New York experience for my comparative disregard of the gay / straight question. But I knew about gays long before I moved to New York. I grew up around San Francisco and was propositioned by a gay Art teacher in high school who cried his eyes out when I turned him down. I didn't feel any dread, fear or hate for him, nor did I suspect that I was gay. I knew that I wasn't. But I suspect that a lot of young people, especially in these crazy days, go into their high school years not all that sure of themselves. Some people try out being gay even though they really aren't. There's a lot wrong with this country and especially what passes for a culture and a lot has to do with the pressure to have sex. Some things are for adults, some things are for kids. Too bad we don't make the distinctions clear. It would help a lot of people if we did.
More of The Same...
I thought that gay people liked Broadway musicals.
One good stereotype deserves another.
Actually, I?tm)ve heard much more about CM as a resource to pick up girls.
(It?tm)s useful, as we all know...)
Pablo Massa
Why do I suspect that Sr. Massa is not an American? Because I have never been able to use my extensive involvement with Classical Music as a resource to pick up girls? God, I wish!!
The Direct Approach
I want to discuss with you the fact that many people hate classical music.
Indeed? When you ask some of them, you receive answers like: it is a loud music that no body understand and feel it and singers are screaming not singing. Surely he means Opera. This is a problem. Indeed it is, not only for the opera singers themselves but for most of their audiences as well. We know that classical music is a great art. Supposedly. If it is not, then I wouldn't see such a discussion list for classical music.Mohammed Iqbal
Yep, my e-mail gets clogged with all the entries. There must be something to it otherwise why would there be so many people willing to discuss it? And yes, there are a lot of people who like Classical Music but can't stand Opera. In fact, Opera is almost a separate genre all by itself, and inside it are many conflicting camps. If you don't dig it, don't despair. Many people can't stand it either.
Persistence of an Issue.
I only have one gay friend that is a hard-core CM fanatic. But you, Don, and myself are CM insiders, and we know better. The whole point behind my posting was that a 17-year old CM lover was made uncomfortable by friends who know nothing of CM except for when they see occasional references in movies, or know of a CM artist who has transcended the genre and enjoys name recognition even among the popular culture.
And I've already given the definitive answer to that, the only one that seems appropriate within the confines of the current incredibly stultifying American pop culture based on the thoughts of an average or below average American teenager. To repeat it. If you would be a musician of any rank, you must make it your life, take time to do it and to whatever extent possible DISCARD THE REST OF YOUR SOCIAL LIFE in high school. Let's look at some of those references in movies, and let's look at some of the genre-busting names of the last 30 years.As an outsider, you may know nothing about Classical pianists, but when independent film-making was all the rage, you might have found yourself at the movie, "Shine," where the pianist at one point is seduced by a transvestite.
I didn't see Shine.
Imagine the aging baby-boomer, (whose only classical record was "Switched-on Bach," that runaway hit of the ‘70's), walking into Dallas Tower Records today and asking Kevin Sutton if, "he could be directed to the Walter Carlos section....
Right, Wendy Carlos is a famous transexual. Is a transexual a homosexual? NO! Carlos is brilliant by the way.
Not knowing who Maria Callas is, you certainly would now after that aria scene in the movie, "Philadelphia," where a gay male tries to explain his love of opera.
If the Philadelphia story was based on a real life story then we have a gay man who happened to love Opera. The bigger impression, which happens to be both a stereotype and as with many stereotypes carries a germ of truth, is that most gays, but not all, have some interest in the fine arts.
Liberace?need I say more. (yeah, yeah, but he dabbled in CM)
He played the piano like a machine, but no matter, Lee Liberace used the "costume" of Classical Music to add to his success as an entertainer. I for one won't take that from him. He was a glorious fop!
And speaking of musicals, in the movie "American Pie,"
didn't see that one either. the main character discloses to his teammates that he "can't make the game because he is going to appear in the school musical," and one of his teammates retorts: "What?" "Are you kidding?" "Are you a f*g?" (I know this might be distasteful writing to some, but the movie was a hit, and therefore seen by countless, countless youth.)It's often hard in the average American high school to mix athletics with the fine arts. It's quite otherwise in Germany and Russia which may account for the prevalence of musicians with real stamina who come from those countries.
Two ballet greats that even made it to the covers of People magazine: Baryshnikov (sp?) and Nureyev: Nureyev died of AIDS-related causes, and Baryshnikov can be seen indignantly asserting, "I like girls!" in the movie, "The Turning Point," after being taunted by a female dancer.
Nureyev was gay, Baryshnikov wasn't, but no matter. Ballet and modern dance are two areas where men are often "turned out" which is to say that even if they weren't gay to begin with, the chances are good that they will be by the time they're done. Just why this is may have a lot to do with spending so much time in such close proximity to so many thinly clad women combined with the incredible analysis that dancers go through regarding their bodies and their slightest movement. I know this from personal exposure to the Dance world of New York through my late wife who was a dancer and choreographer there for many years.
These are some of the snapshots of the CM lifestyle that get stuck in the popular American psyche.
Which as I have insinuated is largely a "high school" psyche. It's high time to start saying so LOUDLY! Not only would Classical Music stand to benefit but Jazz as well.
Of course, to be fair, as an outsider I would be able to identify the Three Tenors, and Charlotte Church; I might have the CD "Chant" in my collection, and I might have seen the movies, "Amadeus," and "The Competition"
saw them both?no unusual lifestyles represented. "Unusual" in the sense of sexual preference?As a teacher, I have lost a few very promising instrumentalists to negative peer pressure, and have even attended in-service meetings at band director conventions dedicated to "counteracting negative peer pressure and keeping your middle-school musicians."
John Smyth
Well John, all I can say is that to be an effective music educator in these times takes the heart of a tiger. Too bad you have to be prepared to eat a lot of carrion.
More of the same...
What we remember and what registers in our brains are different also. John referred to his premise that male list members write about their affection/desire for women to counter the gay-classical music connection.
Well, I suppose there could be other reasons particularly if these men are single. I for one would certainly like meeting a woman who was beautiful, talented and brainy who really knew about Classical Music. I can bet that there are other men out there with the same agenda. My answer to John's question has to be yes, because it don't apply to me and I can't see any reason to assume it applies to any other list members who write on the subject. I can't either, although I'm sure there are some men out there who are genuine homophobes. I just assume they like the total woman what is that? and enjoy the topic; maybe that's an assumption I should dump. Maybe I should stop accepting the words of male list members who state they are married. They could be lying, LOL. Maybe I'm not married either, and my wife Ellen Jane is really the name of my collie. But, I'm a gullible guy. I believe what people say and intend to continue that way. Well sort of muddled, but I guess I agree. I do not automatically assume that a man who has an interest in Classical Music is gay nor would I assume that his statements regarding his liking for women imply his desire to prove he isn't gay. The Classical Music - gay connection is really not that strong. Try another fine art, like Dance, then you might have something.One thing about Wendy Carlos. I had no knowledge of any sex change until I read it on this list.
Well, it's sort of CM trivia anyway. There sure is a LOT of CM trivia! I must live (internally) at the edge of the communication highway.Don Satz
More Images of CM.
I?tm)m not (north)American,
I knew it! Where can I pick up girls using Classical Music? LOL but everybody knows a hundred of snapshots in the popular American psycho which provides quite different associations:Opera - an italian Padrino at his palco eating cannoli and crying, because of the sad fate of Turiddu (of course: a few moments ago, he ordered to kill his nephew, or something like this).
Ah, to be a (stereotyped) hot blooded Italian! Caught between his mad desire for bloody revenge and his despair at shedding innocent blood! What a situation! And perhaps it is as well that most people never understand what's really going on in an Italian opera or they might roll with laughter rather than sitting there in sleepy attitudes between awe and mild indifference.Beethoven - anything related to "freedom" (the fall of some wall at Berlin, etc) or, at least: Gary Oldman speaking with German accent and sniffing a thin line of white powder in a large venetian mirror.
Yeah, wasn't that a corny movie? I thought it stank! The best representation of Beethoven in a move was done by Walt Disney (LOL) in his famous and all but unavailable Magnificent Rebel where Beethoven was played by Karl Bohm.As you know, expressions like "gay" and "homosexual" and other unmentionable ones, are usual insults and a matter of joke among kids (and among idiot adults like me and my friends). Any member of a male group whose personal characteristics are different from the general standard (tastes, look, intelligence, stupidity, anything) will be reputed as "gay".
Perhaps. There's even something new happening in American high schools now with the word "gay." It is now being tacked onto anything that is either stupid or no longer in favor. It is not even associated with being homosexual or not exclusively so.So, if the other members of the group are fanatics of trash metal and the teenager of your post likes Nirvana, he will be a gay. The same conclusion is obtained fatally when you change the premises of this syllogism. Then, classical music here is just "empiric data": the real matter is the difference between this kid and his group, since among males, a "gay" is defined by what he is not. Let's remember phonetics: in order to identify a phonema, the sound in itself is not so important as its difference with the other elements of the system.
You lost me.Pablo Massa