MetalJoe's Amiga Pages Present:
The Full greenboy Interview!

John Chandler, 27th February 2000

(JC) Welcome to Suite101.com's Amiga section, greenboy. Thanks for agreeing to answer a few questions on behalf of the Amiga community.

Thanks for inviting me. Where's the snacks? I hope you won't be asking me my favorite brand of cola ; } I'm nearly a fiend for fresh-ground Sumatran or Italian-roast, anyway. As long as it's driven through a French-press or presented by a loverly barista. Call it a Seattle influence. Tres continentale, saladays ; }

(JC) Although I'm sure most of the readers will at least be aware of the Phoenix Platform Consortium, could you briefly describe the aims of the organisation?

In a nutshell, it is a developers' organization. Bear with some history here, in hopes that the idiosyncratic philosophy behind Phoenix will become apparent.

Originally, firebrand Mario Saitti and I were pitching a rework of ICOA (then the Amigan developer body) after meeting on the Team AMIGA mailing list. Some of the ideas that drove this went back to '98, in a series of posts I wrote titled "A Dealer Manifesto: AMIGA CENTRAL". Anyway, as Mario and I presented our concerns to ICOA, we also found that Gary Peake of Team AMIGA supported our efforts.

ICOA was dying because it totally depended on Gatemiga (hereafter, the company formerly known as Amiga Inc) for direction and focus. And yet Gatemiga ignored ICOA developers entirely. We found it alarming that ICOA did not use their remaining energies to focus on marketing and cooperative strategies, strategies that could at least attempt to support the use and sales of stuff for the classic Amiga while a new generation was supposedly taking shape at Gatemiga.

Mostly, ICOA was not interested in our ideas and did not believe we had correctly assessed the Gatemiga situation. They were content to wait for roses that never arrived. So Mario and I began an underground movement we dubbed Phoenix, enlisting developers who were not part of ICOA, and those few who were disaffected.

We quickly attracted notable community activists like Giorgio Gomelsky (who had spearheaded other initiatives and corresponded regularly with me) and Paul May (energetically delving into many other communities) and Clash Bowley (friend of MooBunny, defender of non-standard smilies). We continued to approach people we felt might be both sympathetic and closed-lipped. The last bit was important because some ICOA members and other assorted Gatemiga sycophants were quite hostile to our ideas and our presence (probably still are).

Our interest then extended further to potential OS partner, QNX, who had just been jilted by Gatemiga. We'd already been talking to them because they had killer intellectual property - quite fascinating, actually. And they were so much more approachable than Gatemiga. We wished to have some connection with the parent company, after all.

But as Gatemiga pushed QNX in front of the bus and tried to make Amigans swallow Linux as a substitute, it made us realize that we had better think of working with someone who might be able to get to market because we had little faith Gatemiga would. After all, QNX had put many people on the Amiga project and wanted to continue.

Our belief that Gatemiga would never build a spiritual successor to the Amiga was later reinforced when we saw Bill McEwen pushed out with nary a day's notice. At that point we were able to invite Bill, who we had discretely chatted with before, into Phoenix. It was obvious there would no longer be a Gatemiga-employed conflict of interest.

Anyway, you've seen the names on our coming-out announcement: it has been a pleasure to be advised by and to have kidded around with some of the Lorraine people, and the CBMers, and all the other developer talent. As we've hit over a 200-developer membership, I've come to know quite a few of them. It's just a gas to have this much brain-power and Amiga spirit assembled under one banner - even if they *are* arguing about who currently makes the best graphics chipset ; }

So here, the formula: a dissatisfaction with a very lame parent company, and dislike for over-reliance on parent companies as a matter of principal, and a strong desire to focus more on the *other* things that build a platform and a marketplace, and give developers a support- system. Thus, in Phoenix, we have an expanded definition of "developer". We encourage marketers, press and publishers, financiers, translators, web-industry people - pretty much anybody who potentially contributes to building and sustaining a healthy market.

Come aboard, folks, and make a place for yourself!

(AB) You designated yourself as the main facilitator and coordinator at large. How can a former Amiga dealer and musician became a frontman of such on organization? Is it your brainchild?

Actually there was and is a core group. These are some of the earlier- named people; those who did most of the work and brainstormed endlessly to hurdle all the obstacles. We are still drawing a roadmap for Phoenix that extends some distance into the future, based on models we explored at the inception.

But it was apparent when we prepared to announce our existence under provisional charter, that a zoo-keeper was needed to oversee the "facilitorium". It was generally agreed that I was stupid enough to work for no money (a musician, after all), had driven some metaphors into the Phoenix mindset like an ever-pounding riff from a loud hardcore band, and even had displayed some of the other needed skills. So here we are today.

Note: the title "facilitator or coordinator" was suggested by Carl Sassenrath (or was it Gary Peake for one of them?) - and seconded by others because it indicates our informal atmosphere. It's an adequate description of what I do. Though as we go along that will of course evolve to suit current needs. But right now I am still at large, trying to have fun in the chase while still helping to maintain focus. Like any Hi-Toro fan, I believe in Joe Pillows and big bunny-slippers, and jokes that "normal" people don't always get.

(JC) From the very beginning, Phoenix has recommended QNX Neutrino as the kernel of choice for developments under the Phoenix banner. What kind of relationship does Phoenix have with QSSL, Neutrino's developers?

A very good one! QNX is an excellent company with excellent support, listens to developers, and has been very intent on learning about the Amiga and its community ever since they were approached by Gatemiga, before their impressive last-moment demo at Köln (Cologne) in 1998. They enjoy high status in world-wide realtime OS circles, and Canadian and international business communities.

Because QNX is privately owned, what you hear is what you get - no stock politics to get in the way here. The company is run by people who like to code and are world-class OS architecture specialists. They are easy to like because they value the same traits that made the Amiga great. And the people are real nice, and are real straight-shooters.

On the practical side, most of QNX's Neutrino team has been working with a subset of Phoenix developers on the early beta program since last November, finalizing changes and seeking bugs before it goes out to the entire Phoenix membership in the next few weeks. I have been nothing but impressed with their responsiveness and their desire to let Amigans define what is to be included or changed, and what is to be added at a later date.

What can I say. I like them, and I like their vision.

(AB) Does Phoenix or QSSL have a vision of the future? Your competitor, Amiga Incorporated, seems to be building upon the plans and visions of KOSH which were contributed also by Dave Haynie, at present Phoenix protagonist and signatory.

I'm not always certain the Phoenix body as a whole has some earth- shaking vision. The developers just want to eat while programming for an exciting OS with tons of potential. But we core people have plans, and the meme is infecting developers who wish to see computing that is enjoyable and creative and productive. Thus they recognize a need for an enlightened developer consortium to ensure that this can continue.

Hopefully, Laurie Anderson's "Language Is A Virus" is playing in pointed little heads somewhere as we acknowledge guys like Dave and Carl and RJ and Gio, who have been down this road before, understanding that the developers - and the user community - need to have more than just a development program supplied by an overlord tech company.

I also wish to note here that Phoenix and the new Amiga Inc are not competitors. One is a gathering of developers of all shapes and sizes, the other is a company - one that has in some respects a similar goal to QNX's and in some ways quite different. Anyway, in the name of enlightened self-interest, Phoenix is not promoting cutthroat tactics between the two companies.

Indeed, we've been in constant contact with Bill and Fleecy every step of the way, hoping that we could make this work for everybody, looking for solutions that would allow all to proceed as quickly as possible. We do not want energies squandered by infighting or propaganda. We want developers to have the freedom to develop for the platforms of their choice without pressure being applied to salute either flag exclusively.

Perhaps you will see some surprises in coming weeks.

(JC) We've heard lots of promises in the past from many companies and organisations about a new OS and new hardware. Those who present roadmaps and dates seem to fall by the wayside, those who don't seem to vanish. It's a pretty poor situation. At the risk of invoking the curse, can you give a rough outline of when we might expect to see Phoenix deliver real products? What markets are going to be tackled first?

I can't give any time frame, not really; only that work is going as fast as it can. Dan Dodge wants everything right - to him that is the bottom line. And I mean, the desktop is where QNX wants to take Neutrino. That implies applications galore: small office home office, games, education, multimedia, music, video, home networking, internet - pretty much everything we are familiar with, and perhaps some things we are not yet accustomed to. That's no small order.

That said, expect some announcements soon : }

As far as the internal developer-system timetable, things are roughly as they should be. I haven't seen any slippage yet. Which I admit has been gratifying. Though I almost expect to at some point, just knowing that it is the rule in the computing industry. This could give me major attacks of the heebie-jeebies, but I try to keep perspective.

You know, I hate to jerk Dan Dodge away from his work on the real stuff, but maybe you should be interviewing him ; } I represent the developers, and of course OS partners are developers. So I do my best to respect their rights to announce their own products and timetables as they need. Phoenix so far has not had any serious breaches of non-disclosure, but interviews and posts in forums sure offer temptations to the uncaring or unwitting. I don't want to become a casualty ; }

(AB) How much are Phoenix efforts co-ordinated with QSSL?

I've seen a few posts by naysayers claiming that Phoenix is just a front for QNX. What a laugh. Working directly with QNX was not even a possibility when Phoenix was just stepping out of the nest. It is natural that we coordinate with QNX of course, but Phoenix has concerns for developers coming from our long-distraught situation that require our own solutions as well.

QNX has deferred from ever forcing anything. They take the long view that we must have a stronger community in order to best persevere and then to thrive. They have offered and shared resources for development support specific to their OS as is natural anywhere. But they have also respected Phoenix members as equal voices always, and have encouraged our efforts without condition.

So actually, coordination has been a relatively organic process, taking advantage of various expertises and timetables, evolving as phases come and go. Be assured, pilgrim: the arrangement is by mutual consent, and no animals have been harmed in the basting of this bird ; }

(AB) Are we talking about Neutrino 2 and Photon 2 or is this something special? Is it a continuation of the project for Gateway-Amiga, Inc.?

People were using QNX's relatively new Neutrino/Photon combination in embedded and convergence solutions when Gatemiga saw that QSSL was also interested in pursuing the desktop. After all, one reason the microkernel design makes good sense is because it can scale from the smallest device to the largest distributed or network model. And what better way to develop for all of this than to be self-hosted on a really cool desktop, one and the same at kernel level.

The desktop is still where most content creation takes place, where developers live, and the logical place to handle converging (sic) data from a home network or a bunch of infopliances. Further, there is a great need for a desktop that is quick and light by modern standards, one that is a joy to use, and explore and expand.

Really, it is likely that what post-Gatemiga developers are adding to the mix will become that - and that any divergence will be of a modular nature as companies and individual users scale around the Neutrino and Photon microkernels (as Photon is also of a microkernel nature for GUI). So, yes, this is something special, and yes, it is a continuation of earlier intentions, but it is also a logical extension of the architecture itself.

(AB) How many people are on the advanced Neutrino project now? Will be the developer beta version available in the 1st quarter 2000?

Foreseeing no major obstacles, all Phoenix developers should be dealing with final version sometime this quarter. Actually the early-beta group grows incrementally as support allows. Starting with about 30 Amigan names and some people from the QNX developer community, I'd say it has maybe 30 more people involved since November. Even now, utility- type apps are being written as the best way to learn and to quash bugs and alter functionality.

(JC) Software is the lifeblood of any platform, and many new systems have failed through a lack of software, despite their technical advantages. What support is Phoenix and/or QSSL providing for developers to allow software to be ported to the Neutrino environment? What provision can Amiga developers expect with regard to migrating their applications over to the new platform?

Much discussion has taken place within Phoenix about porting strategies for Amiga stuff. Some people are doing tools for that. Then, there is POSIX compliance, which will sometimes be a big aid for porting from the various *nixes. Also good development tools - and actually an IDE (integrated development environment) - are being taken farther at the same time, relying also on the early-beta people's experiences. Beyond that, I am not at liberty to talk about incentives.

QNX is big on having major staff support around for developers; this is why the early-beta program is being done with a shortlist from Phoenix - so that the ratio is roughly one-to-one in earlier stages. Then, as the beta goes final and is distributed to all Phoenix, there is an additional group of Neutrino- and Photon-conversant people around.

(JC) The Amiga already has a large stock of existing software, some of which may never be ported to Neutrino but which users might not wish to lose. Is Phoenix planning some form of emulation or API compatibility to allow older software binaries to run on the new platform?

There have been debates on whether an API compatibility layer should be developed by Phoenix as a whole. It became obvious though, that many felt that the best future lay in putting all those manhours - years really - into native development of apps and tools instead, since there were already several good emulations in planning or development. It was felt that treating Neutrino and Photon as new, fresh entities instead of dragging too much legacy was probably the way to go.

I cannot divulge what the bundled emulation will be, but QNX has made sure there is a solution that works well, and is inclusive as far as what Amiga titles and apps will run on any Neutrino-equipped machine. I understand that there may also be some third-party attempts that are based on different approaches.

Everybody knows how important migration strategies are for Amigans, Amigans who have invested so much time learning apps, and want to continue to be productive. Any new platform entering the arena must address the needs of its early adopters, so there has been lots of effort to make sure this happens.

Is that answer enough? ; }

(JC) Of course, Phoenix isn't just about software. Most people, myself included, are eagerly awaiting new hardware. Out of the various hardware developers working with Phoenix, only Phase 5 have publicly outlined any plans (admittedly before the inception of Phoenix). Is the issue of new hardware under consideration by others within the consortium, and are you able to give an indication of what hardware we might expect in the near future?

Actually that bit about the phase 5 announcement predating Phoenix is not true, by months or more. It should also be noted that other hardware people are Phoenix members. But really, what they are all working on are classic Amiga products that will also be used as transitional hardware. This will allow Amigans to use Neutrino on current hardware, and to use emulation to run classic Amiga software.

But I think it far more interesting what can be done with QNX's touted "processor agnostic" philosophy. Because motherboards and machines using PowerPC (G3, G4 and beyond), Athlon and other x86 types, and maybe Alpha and future Transmeta products, may be looked at as hosts for different tiers of performance and user-preference. Having choices is where it's at.

Right now, for instance, there is a large interest in POP, which is based on PowerPC board designs that are freely available to anyone who wants to build them. A good example is the motherboards Silicon Fruit is entering the market with. Expect to see companies doing more of this, and building systems around such boards - systems that can easily host Neutrino (as well as other OSes).

The obvious other near-term solution is to use latest-gen x86 machines with Athlons, etc, with all the fast latest-gen memory and subsystem technologies. But less-recent, bog-standard PCs will do in many cases *heh* for many people. And dig this: people will notice a remarkable increase in performance - especially if they have previously used Microsoft OSes on the same hardware.

Look, ma, no bloat. And realtime latencies. The truth is, most of the available hardware itself is great - it's just the M$ and Linux stuff making it look bad.

Custom chips...? Custom chips as the Amiga was blessed with in the beginning, and has been increasingly hobbled with - they no longer belong on the motherboard design. Abstraction at the OS level allows graphics or audio cards to easily be replaced with better ones simply by plugging new in software drivers anyway.

And actually, from another angle, these cards do contain custom chips. Except that these custom chipsets are supplied by companies with billion-dollar R&D and marketing budgets, who live in 6-9 month development cycles and leapfrog technologies in a way no general company could ever aspire to. These companies specialize in that technology, and it shows. And because PCI and other standards are cross-platform, the chips and cards can be had very cheaply, for any desktop that supports these constantly-upgraded standards.

So just because one wants to use a good OS doesn't mean they should have to pay extra hardware fees for the pleasure of using it : }

(JC) Many people have raised legitimate concerns that with organisations like Amiga Corporation and Phoenix presenting differing plans and visions, users and developers are being split and the chances of new Amiga hardware and OS reduced as a result. Do you feel that Amiga and Phoenix are, intentionally or not, spoiling the chances of a new Amiga appearing by not presenting a single, coherent plan? Or do you feel that the variety will increase the chances of something tangible shipping in good time?

I feel that things are the way they are, and hopefully people will do all they can to make this work. At the risk of repeating myself, I stay in touch with the leaders of all the movements and companies who are willing to communicate. We exchange ideas, encouragement, and commiserate about all the misfortune we sometimes endure. We join each others' mailing lists. Some of the people from other initiatives are in Phoenix; the rest have been invited.

Again, let me stress this: the Phoenix Consortium is a developer's organization - not a company. Thus we hope to represent developers without conflict of interest and give them access to infrastructure and a big, wide talent-pool. The eventual goal is to have a developer community that is respected elsewhere and everywhere, no more famine for developers, and no more for users either. Big goal; needs big people. We hope to grow into this vision.

(JC) Last month, I touched upon the subject of some form of cooperation between Phoenix and Amiga - likening the situation to the friendly rivalry between Linux and the BSDs. Do you feel this is something which is vital to the survival of both platforms? If so, do you believe it to be a realistic goal?

I don't always see the BSD and Linux rivalry as friendly : } I hope we can do better. It's odd: most of us as humans perhaps rightfully feel allegiances, loyalties. But we don't always understand that we are not best served by expressing our polarities in such exaggerated form to the point of fanaticism. We all come from a common heritage, and though there are many different uses and experiences with the Amiga, we all recognize a commonality. We want to see it continued and enhanced.

It may be difficult not to make the competition ugly at times - we've been somewhat trained to think that way - but in actuality we need to put every bit of energy into making sure each path and each movement is focused on doing its strongest work. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let the results - the supplied products and solutions - speak for themselves when they are given a voice in the near future. And let the developers choose freely. They do anyway; many have a history of cross- platform development. It is quite likely that several of the available possibilities will manifest into useful and enjoyable central products, and that they may actually compliment each other. Who knows until we try?

(AB) On a lighter note, is it just a coincidence or does it symbolize the times we're living in that the last chances for the continuation of Amiga spirit are represented by people using pseudonyms, namely Fleecy Moss and you, greenboy?

Ah, steering toward the metaphysical ; } Well. Fleecy and I may be involved in predominant movements, but there are other initiatives also - they are blessed with people having normal names. And we odd ducks are surrounded by people who help reign in our excesses and they too have mostly conventional names. Though I have noticed when roaming IRC and the rest of the net, that they too may be...adventurous...when experimenting with self-image. *ahem*

(AB) greenboy - is it your first or last name? ;-)

Yes ; }

It's my name. Period. As a musician, I led a band named I had named "greenboy". In a very short time people just started calling me greenboy (shades of Jethro Tull). Many of these folk were my customers and friends and partners in Amiga-based projects. They were seeing Amiga-made "greenboy" cassettes and posters and T-shirts, and they became comfortable with the name too. So it stuck. I began to use it in my other business affairs and at my Amiga dealership.

I had an not-so-conventional clientele anyway - in a good way. I mostly sold big-box systems with all the fixin's to creative people: graphics specialists and animators, musicians, studio people, gallery and performance artists, guerrilla videographers - and even general Amigans who were of course very interested in multimedia and creativity. Exciting times, these.

The name probably did me no harm. In fact it was an asset in most cases, because those types of people always like an interesting scene. Any encouragement to express healthy individuality is met with enthusiasm. Even my corporate clients and people who consulted with me usually got into the spirit.

Now it is unthinkable to be anybody else because those golden Amiga years were so rewarding. There was such a nexus of newly-discovered power unleashed by the all the programmers and engineers involved with the Amiga as they reinvented the desktop, innovating new categories of use and terms to describe them.

Profoundly enough, we have come full circle, because I now work to represent the promising developers who can give us all new life again. The fried old bird is in fact a Phoenix. To jump a cliché, we hope to fly ever higher.

(AB) Does the "facilitator at large" still have time to play guitar?

As a matter of fact, guitar is not my strongest suit. I was involved many instruments and electronics, but primarily with saxophones (bari, tenor, alto, soprano) and bass clarinet (check out Eric Dolphy, and Benny Maupin in the early Miles Davis fusion).

But ever since I was a science fiction kid dropping a mike down the bell and playing through a fuzz box, an echoplex, and an old guitar amp I've been fascinated doing electronic treatments in live settings, as well as using horns to drive all kinds of synths, samplers, midi gear, and other sonic gewgaws.

One of the reasons an Amiga dealership was attractive was because I already used computers for my commercial studio which I had also graced with retail space, partnering as well in some development projects here and there, and having established cred as a beta tester too. When midi was first getting established people had trouble with getting the right software and dealing with computers and new metaphors. So it was a natural to cross a few more boundaries.

Which I've been doing here, haven't I? ; }

...Actually I took up electric bass about two years ago, and am doing pickup gigs here and there, and had my own band again for awhile before Phoenix became my overriding obsession. I'm currently playing a 6- string, and my new 5-string fretless, through a monster 1400-watt bass rig with - surprise! - lots of electronics. I make it a point to scare any guitarist who believes burying the band in deep 11 {Spinal Tap reference} is alone enough to aspire to being a guitar ghod.

(AB) What music do Seattle-breed bass players like?

Ah, I'm no longer in Seattle. I moved to Montana, where I could pursue wide-open spaces and dental floss bushes. As far as music, I like bits and pieces of just about anything from any period. We live in a great era where if one cares to they can seek out gems from all over the world and from all these different fascinating genres. I must admit though, that playing in flat-black clubs and toasting video for other bands in Seattle while grunge was coming up definitely renewed my "pledge to shred".

Right now? I'm listening to an "Elio E Le Storie Tese" CD that Rudi "Nutello" Chiarito gave me at the "Hayniestock" party last summer. Rudi's personal and Sofa websites make it obvious that he's, like, a phan of Frank Zappa ever since Suzy Creamcheese first made the rounds. Rudi guessed I'd like Elio - often acknowledged in Italy as spiritual "sons of Zappa". He was right. They are dada-driven fiends of the highest order. And the album art for all their CDs ain't chopped-meat byproduct either. A great white shark with braces - really now!

(JC & AB) Any final thoughts you'd like to add?

Yeah. It has been a pleasure to come into the Amiga world-community online after losing much hope (and my livelihood) after CBM went under. I'd lost touch with the many often-departed-for-other-platforms friends in user-groups I used to be active in. Doing Phoenix is a rebirth for me at a certain level. I've always had the need to do something, and maybe to fight for the underdog. But I was licking my wounds for quite some time before the stars lined up and I could try, try again.

I am so proud to have met the people in Phoenix and QNX and Amiga and all through the community. It's a fighting family, that's for sure, one that has fallen on hard times, but I am excited to be a part of it as it finally gets a shot at taking flight.

Anyway, I'm outta here. I need another fresh-ground, scary and dark and moist. The roast that keeps on giving. So see yez later, John and Andrej. Thanks for having me.

[metaljoe@snowcrash.u-net.com]